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Is this project on the site or close to the site ???
Sorry it took so long to reply water..
My understanding is that it's about 2 blocks away from the actual site of the WTC.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Preach it, clem!!
There's the argument that putting a mosque near Ground Zero hurts the victims' families.
I saw one guy say that, following that, we should also be up in arms about building banks near people whose houses have been foreclosed on.
Or, since the Catholic Church had its priests molest children, we should protest when they want to build a church near anywhere where children might be.
I just cannot fathom a single logical excuse for people to protest against the mosque.
And I cannot fathom that there is anyone out there whose vote is really going to be changed because of it.
It's just ridiculous. There's no other words I can think of to describe it.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Hall of Famer
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I just cannot fathom a single logical excuse for people to protest against the mosque.
you guys do know that this is NOT a mosque? it's a rec center that has couple of floors dedicated to prayer(since they pray so many times a day, it's just a spot for them to pray at)
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Legend
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You're right. I call it a mosque just for simplicity sake.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I will not be used.
IMO, there is "great" potential that many could be...or "are"...being used, in the case of the mosque "near" ground zero.
Reading the following left me with the feeling that, "I have seen this act before"...where certain parties involved had the potential to push (and control) both sides of the issue...to build a Islamic center near ground zero.
...thus it's too late for many to realize...you are being played, for political gain...again.
...read on...
News Corp’s number-two shareholder funded ‘terror mosque’ planner
The opponents of the proposed Cordoba Initiative Islamic center planned for Lower Manhattan are fond of suggesting, by way of lengthy and often confusing chains of causation and association, that its principal planner, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, is connected to terrorism. "The imam has been tied to some shady characters," Fox Business Channel's Eric Bolling recently said, "so should we worry that terror dollars could be funding the project?" Blogger Pamela Geller, who has become a regular talking head on cable-news channels to denounce the mosque, has noted Rauf's involvement with a Malaysian peace group that funded the group that organized the Gaza flotilla under the headline, "Ground Zero Imam Rauf's 'Charity' Funded Genocide Mission."
On last night's "Daily Show," Jon Stewart skewered these antics as a "dangerous game of guilt by association you can play with almost anybody," and proceeded to tie Fox News to al-Qaida by connecting Fox News parent News Corp's second-largest shareholder, Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, to the Carlyle Group, which has done business with the bin Laden family, "one of whose sons — obviously I'm not going to say which one — may be anti-American." But Stewart didn't need to take all those steps to make the connection: Al-Waleed has directly funded Rauf's projects to the tune of more than $300,000. If Fox newscasters can darkly suggest "terror dollars" are sluicing into the Islamic center's coffers via "shady characters," then are Al-Waleed, and News Corp. leader Rupert Murdoch, by the same logic, also terror stooges? (The "Daily Show" video appears after the jump.)
Indeed, as none other than Rupert Murdoch's New York Post reported last May, the Kingdom Foundation, al-Waleed's personal charity, has donated a total of $305,000 to Muslim Leaders of Tomorrow, a leadership and networking project sponsored jointly by two of Rauf's organizations, the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative. Al-Waleed owns a 7 percent, $2.3 billion stake in News Corporation. Likewise, News Corporation owns a 9 percent, $70 million stake — purchased in February — in Rotana, Al-Waleed's Saudi media conglomerate. Put another way: Rupert Murdoch and Fox News are in business, to the tune of billions of dollars, with one of the "Terror Mosque Imam's" principal patrons.
As Geller helpfully notes on her blog, Al-Waleed donated $500,000 to the Council on American-Islamic Relations — which has been repeatedly denounced on Fox News's air by Geller and others as a terror group — in 2002. Indeed, Rauf's "numerous ties to CAIR" alone have been cited by the mosque's opponents as a justification for imputing terrorist sympathies to him, yet few people seem to be asking whether Murdoch's extensive multi-billion business collaboration with the man who funds both Rauf and CAIR merits investigation or concern.
Other beneficiaries of Al-Waleed's largess include the Islamic Development Bank, a project designed to "foster the economic development and social progress of [Muslims] in accordance with the principles of Shari'ah." The IDB funds the construction of mosques around the world, and has been implicated by frequent Fox News guest Stephen Schwartz in an attempt to spread radical Wahhabism (a fundamentalist branch of Islam) throughout the United States.
Geller has worried in the past on her blog about Al-Waleed's ownership of News Corporation shares, but never on anything like the scale of outrage she's mustered in opposing the mosque. We asked her why Rauf's tenuous connections to radical Islam disturb her so, while Rupert Murdoch's direct ties to a man who funds what Geller regards as terrorism have spurred no such outcry: "I'm not aware that News Corp. has any such close connection with anyone connected with CAIR, and despite the involvement of Al-Waleed bin Talal in News Corp., I don't believe that the two connections are analogous. ... Fox ... has been much more honest and objective about Islamic supremacist initiatives, including this Ground Zero mega-mosque, than have the other networks. Consequently, I would say that while Al-Waleed's stake in News Corp. should indeed be a matter of concern for free Americans, at the same time a matter of much greater concern should be the funding of the other networks, and the possible influence that funding has had upon their unrelenting Leftist and pro-Islamic supremacist bias."
Fox News had no comment. An email to Al-Waleed's Kingdom Holdings was not returned.
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As much as I enjoy blaming Republicans for all the world's ills,   , let's not forget wonderful Democratic Senator Harry Reid. Regardless of party, no person should be against this. People certainly have the right to speak their mind about it. But that doesn't make them right.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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could someone explain this to me.
is this mosque being proposed to be built on the wtc property or just near it?
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It is a former Burlington Coat Factory location ..... It's a couple of blocks from actual ground zero.
The whole uproar over this is absolutely ridiculous.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
It is a former Burlington Coat Factory location ..... It's a couple of blocks from actual ground zero.
The whole uproar over this is absolutely ridiculous.
see, they make it seem like they are building it right smack dab where the towers stood.
i agree, it's a joke.
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It is 2 blocks away. 2 blocks that are the size of 2 or 3 regular NYC blocks.
Right across the street from Ground Zero there is a Burger King, tacky 9-11 Chinese made souvenirs, tourist "photo spots", all kinds of things that make Ground Zero not a memorial, but a venue for someone to profit. So why not a non-denominational culture center that will be 13 stories, with only the top 2 dedicated to Muslim prayer. The rest will contain a community pool, restaurant, culinary school, art center.
It will be called 51 Park Place, and will not have a view of Ground Zero or be visible directly from Ground Zero.
The politicians are using this to distract people from the real problems of this country and it is working. They are sitting back smoking a cigar and laughing at the American people, because they hung out a carrot and the people started following it.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Hall of Famer
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see to me this would be an awesome opportunity to prove that americans do not hate islam or muslims...what better way to say, we understand not all of muslim ppl are terrorist and we respect islam? hell u don't even have to like it..as long as you respect their religion like ur supposed to respect anyone elses faith no matter what it is, because this is the united states!!!
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To play along with that, I've heard from a couple of friends who are intelligent people the following:
"Putting it there would add insult to injury"
and
"It would be similar to bulding a kkk monument down the road from the montgomery baptist church"
I mean, seriously?
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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wow thts wrong...comparing KKK to a freaking rec center LOL I blame the freaking media for most of this....the entire headline is wrong...mosque(its not one...) AT GROUND ZERO? 
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The thing that really makes me sick is how so many so called conservatives and libertarians in the media are all up in arms over this. If we have freedom of religion .... then we have freedom of religion. We have this freedom no matter where that religion wishes to locate, everywhere in this country. Many talk of showing the Muslim World just how much better our ideals are .... but what good are those ideals if we shut them out because "it just isn't right" that a Mosque and/or rec center are built there ..... If I believe that all religions should be treated equally .... and I do ..... And if I believe that no one should be able to tell any religion where they may or may not practice their religious beliefs .... and I do ...... Then there is no way on God's Earth that this rec center should be barred from the area. I mean .... how far away do we go if we bar them here ..... do we go another mile ...... another 10 miles ..... out of the country entirely ....? The whole purpose of the 9-11 attacks was to divide the American people, and to drive divisions between people based on religion. The ONLY way the 9-11 attackers win is if this happens.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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jc..
There Has Been a Mosque Near Ground Zero Since 1970 – Same Year the World Trade Center Opened
Jon Ponder | Jul. 23, 2010
Design concept for Cordoba House
Design concept for Park 51
I lived four blocks east of the World Trade Center in the 1980s, so I’ve followed the controversy about Park 51, formerly known as Cordoba House, the new Islamic center being built two blocks north of the trade center at Park Place, with insider-y interest.
I found an unexpected source for tapping into local attitudes about Park 51 on Andrew Sullivan’s site, the Daily Dish, where people from my old neighborhood have been posting comments about the project. The clincher was this factoid that, in hindsight, shouldn’t have been surprising: A mosque, Masjid Manhattan, has been holding services on Warren Street, four blocks north of the World Trade Center, for the last 40 years. (It’s about a block west of the Tweed Courthouse, if you know the area.) From the mosque’s website:
Our members are city, state and federal employees, as well as professional employees of the Financial [District] who come to our Masjid to perform their daily prayers. Masjid Manhattan and its members condemn any type of terrorist acts. In particular, the attacks of 9/11 where non-Muslims as well as Muslims lost their lives.
(UPDATE: Masjid Manhattan includes this disclaimer on its website: “Please be advised that we are by no means affiliated with any other organization trying to build anything new in the area of downtown Manhattan.”)
It is significant that Masjid Manhattan was started in 1970 because the World Trade Center also opened at the end of that year. The first tenants moved into the North Tower in December 1970; the South Tower opened a year later, in January 1972.
The fact that Muslims have been worshiping four blocks away from Ground Zero for so long makes it hard to argue that it’s a sacrilege to have an Islamic presence so close to the site of the attack by their fanatical coreligionists. (So should the fact that about 60 innocent Muslims died in the trade center on 9/11 — roughly 2 percent of all fatalities.)
Demagogues like Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin and outgoing Tea Party Express chairman Mark Williams — who resigned from TPE in June, well before his rant against “Colored People,” in order to work full time on stopping the Park 51 project (and note that he lives in Sacramento) — have been doing everything they can demonize the center — to “Shirley Sherrod” it, if you will — depicting it as a deliberate affront by all Muslims everywhere to the memory of the victims of the attack. But the backers of the Cordoba Initiative say the mission of the new facility is outreach:
Park 51 is a creation of the American Society for Muslim Advancement and the Cordoba Initiative, an organization that seeks to improve relations between Islam and the West.
“This is a way for me to give back, as a New Yorker, to my community,” Soho Properties developer and project backer Sharif El-Gamal told The Jerusalem Post. “I’m a New Yorker. This is about giving back to a city that’s given us so much.”
Gamal pointed out that the proposed center would not be “on Ground Zero,” but two city blocks away, and would include a September 11 memorial.
According to the Cordoba House NYC Web site, the 13- story project would include a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores and restaurants.
“There will be a mosque component, which will be a separate not-for-profit component of the project,” Gamal said. “It’s going to be a small component in a community center, just like the 92nd Street Y has a synagogue.”
This Dish reader who lives in the neighborhood sums up how I’d feel if I still lived there:
I first heard about the mosque project a month or two ago, and the thing that struck me the most about it was the overwhelming support it had from the local community board in Lower Manhattan.
I don’t know how familiar you are with how zoning works in New York and the role that community boards play in that process, but let me tell you, to have a community board agree 29-1 on ANY land use issue is quite an accomplishment. Furthermore, why is land use in New York City the business of anyone else but the citizens of New York? If so, I would really like to know Sarah Palin’s opinion of the Atlantic Yards (or Hudson Yards or the expansion of Columbia University) project, an issue that is 1,000,000x more controversial than this project. That’s all this is: a land use issue.
Following her logic (no small feat, I might add), do I now have the right to protest the construction of a new office building in Anchorage because it may house the offices of Big Oil and insult the people who suffered from the BP oil spill? Or can I have a say the next time some city in the “heartland” decides to build more sprawl at the expense of more livable communities with mixed-use development, walkable streets, and public transportation? I think I should, because it really “stabs me in the heart” when places do that.
This is a local issue, plain and simple. The people of New York – the ones actually attacked on 9/11 and who had to live through the aftermath – are the only ones who are affected by this. It is no one else’s business. Sarah Palin and the “heartland” do not have permanent veto power over what gets built in Lower Manhattan. If they want a say over what happens there, my advice would be to move to New York. They might even learn something about the values of living in a multi-ethnic, multicultural community. Short of that, please STFU.
Plan for Ground Zero memorial from 2008 - Park 51 will be two blocks north, well hidden behind the buildings in the top left corner
Plan for Ground Zero memorial from 2008, viewed looking east - Park 51 will be two blocks north (to the left), completely screened by dozens of tall buildings, including the 1,776-foot tall Freedom Tower, the base of which is depicted in the lower left
Another Dish reader was irritated about Newt Gingrich’s recent claim that the Park 51 building “overlooked” the Ground Zero memorial:
Did Newt really claim that the Cordoba House mosque would “overlook” the World Trade Center site? Rubbish. It is three blocks away and has no line of sight.
Yup, Gingrich is lying. Just as you can’t really see Russia from Sarah Palin’s house, the Park 51 building will in no way be visible from the Ground Zero memorial, which will feature a pair of sunken gardens in the footprint of the towers, set well below grade into the trade center site.
And, while we’re exploding right-wing lies myths, Park 51 is not a mosque:
I live two blocks from Ground Zero in a six-building apartment complex with an active tenant association. As best I can tell, Cordoba House is a non-issue among local residents. I haven’t heard a word from anybody on the subject – not in the elevators, not in the lobby, not at the neighborhood bars or restaurants. Nada.
Here are the facts. The proposed Cordoba House is not a mosque. It’s to be a community center modeled after the YMCA and the Jewish Community Center, with most of its 13 floors devoted to classrooms, fitness and recreation – open to the entire downtown community, not just Muslims. There is to be a “prayer space” that can hold up to 2,000 people. I’ll aver that “prayer space” could just be a PC term for “mosque,” though I confess no knowledge of what procedures must take place to consecrate a facility as an official mosque. The group’s leader, Imam Abdul Rauf, has held services in a small mosque in the neighborhood since 1983. It isn’t as though the group materialized out of nowhere or has no history in the neighborhood.
As an infidel, it’s not my usual practice to defend religions of any stripe — much less one whose extremists would behead my gay ass — but the right-wing tea baggery hypocrisy here has to be addressed. One of the few coherent principles of the tea party phenomenon is a demand for a return to adherence to the Constitution. And yet, many of these same people — including their leaders like Gingrich, Palin and Mark Williams –are behaving as if they are oblivious to the fact that there is a fundamental constitutional principle in play here.
The First Amendment was not written just to protect popular, mainstream religions. It was added precisely for situations like this — to protect controversial and even reviled religions from suppression by majoritarian mobs and persecution by the government. The Equal Protection Clause instructs the government to protect the right to religious practice across the board — meaning that the rights of Muslims in New York City’s Financial District must be unabridged just as the rights are protected for bizarre, right-wing pentacostal sects in Wasilla, hate-filled Baptist Churches in Kansas and mainstream churches, temples, mosques and other places of worship everywhere else.
LINK
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Dawg Talker
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You speak of understanding and tolerance.
But why is that always a one way street????
Where is the understanding and tolerance from the group wishing to put this rec center in this sensitive area? They know it will ruffle feathers. They know it will insult people. They know they can use people like you to make this look like an ignorance issue in order to advance an agenda.
Why this spot? As has been mentioned before...they have been offered other areas and places...some for free...but they hold adamant to this spot....
Where is the understanding , tolerance, and compassion from these people for the feelings of those affected by the 9-11 tragedy????
You have an excellent and logical point. But while this is not a hate group...the KKK reference does hold true(although if they had said a meeting hall instead of a monument it would have been a better reference). For they would have every right, just as these Muslims do, to build their meeting place. But that is not going to happen.....is it?
While I don't agree with many of the people that are rallying against the placement of this rec center/mosque.........I find it extremely insensitive and a little more than slightly insulting that they would try and do this. Of course It is not against my rights to be insulted (too bad more people don't realize that fact).....So while I support their right to build something there. I also support the right of those to petition against it. Just as we have the right to do for most things locally.
Don't want that Wal-Mart to move in down the street where it can put local businesses out of business....petition against it. Don't want City Hall to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on that new birdbath when they just laid off some police and firemen......petition against it....
Peace and understanding is a great thing...but it has to be a TWO WAY STREET.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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When we start allowing religions to be dictated to as far as where they can, and cannot, be housed ..... where they can, and cannot, worship ..... and just how far away "they" have to be ... it becomes easier to do so again ... and again .... and again ..... and not just to "them".
How can peace and understanding be a two way street if we are putting up roadblocks of our own?
This is a matter of law, and a matter of religious and cultural freedom. If we curtail "them", do we have any right to complain if "we" see our own religion marginalized?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Why this spot? As has been mentioned before...they have been offered other areas and places...some for free...but they hold adamant to this spot....
Location Location Location.
Where are these other spots? Do they offer the same accessibility to their target community? Are they comparable in size and build plan?
Are all Muslims extremists? Are all extremists Muslim?
How can we call ourselves "Land of the free" is we dictate what one group may or may not do based on false perceived notions about their faith. If the Westboro Church had bombed the WTC would we refuse a Christian church be built near it? Should we ban Catholic churches near school and day care centers?
Muslims were praying near the World Trade Center since it opened in the 70's.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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If we have freedom of religion .... then we have freedom of religion. We have this freedom no matter where that religion wishes to locate, everywhere in this country.
No, we really don't. We have zoning laws that tell us where we can and cannot build churches, we have historical preservation laws that tell us where we can and cannot build churches and if we can build them what they have to look like... we have zoning battles every day in this country over where they will build the next water treatment plant, the next prison, the next high school, the next shopping center, the next landfill, the next interstate, even where zoning will allow the next catholic church.. they are battled out because one side sees a compelling reason to build it, and another side sees a compelling reason not to (and in almost all cases everybody agrees there needs to be a new prison or a new high school, it's all about the location that people fight)...
I just find it funny that because this is a muslim center, because it has "religion" attached to it, that those who oppose it should just roll over and not make their argument against its construction. Agree with them, disagree with them I don't really care but it is their right to fight it just as much as it is this groups right to build it.
yebat' Putin
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GMAFB. Quote:
Why this spot?
Here's a question: why not this spot? Because it might "ruffle some feathers"? So now we have to coddle people who are too thin-skinned? I feel pretty bad for you if you're so sheltered that you're actually insulted by this.
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You have an excellent and logical point. But while this is not a hate group...the KKK reference does hold true(although if they had said a meeting hall instead of a monument it would have been a better reference). For they would have every right, just as these Muslims do, to build their meeting place. But that is not going to happen.....is it?
And I think the KKK would have every single right to build something wherever they want, too.
But, keep in mind, you're essentially comparing the KKK to Islam. Is that really a comparison you want to make (especially considering the religious makeup of the KKK)?
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While I don't agree with many of the people that are rallying against the placement of this rec center/mosque.........I find it extremely insensitive and a little more than slightly insulting that they would try and do this. Of course It is not against my rights to be insulted (too bad more people don't realize that fact).....So while I support their right to build something there. I also support the right of those to petition against it. Just as we have the right to do for most things locally.
And I hold your right to petition against it as highly as I do the right to build this cultural center near the WTC site.
But that doesn't mean you're right.
I have the ability, if I want, to circulate a petition that outlaws marriage since I'm insulted that people get divorced. I mean, it just ruffles my feathers that people get married at a young age and then get divorced so easily. God, it just makes me so mad that they destroy the sanctity of marriage like that. So, let's just outlaw marriage.
I have every right to petition for something so stupid, but that doesn't mean that I'm right.
You have every right to have your opinion. But that doesn't mean you're right.
In this case, you're simply wrong.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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Have all Christian Churches, Jewish Synogogues, and community centers associated with any religion in any way been barred from being built in that entire area?
What about the Churches that existed in the area prior to the 9-11 attacks.
Bet they haven't. I believe that there are something like 11 Christian Churches that are currently closer to the 9-11 site than the proposed center.
The world is watching. Do we do what we profess as far as freedom goes ... or are we all talk?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The politicians are using this to distract people from the real problems of this country and it is working.
WHy am I not surprised by that..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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DC, I think you need to remember that the religion part of it was brought in by its opponents.
You shouldn't "roll over" just because it has to do with religion.
But, you also shouldn't "attack" it just because it has to do with religion.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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Have all Christian Churches, Jewish Synogogues, and community centers associated with any religion in any way been barred from being built in that entire area?
I don't know, have any applied for permits?
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What about the Churches that existed in the area prior to the 9-11 attacks.
I don't know, has anybody said there is a mosque we should tear down or force them to abandon?
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Bet they haven't. I believe that there are something like 11 Christian Churches that are currently closer to the 9-11 site than the proposed center.
Ok... so? There is a difference between existing and new construction...
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The world is watching.
I don't care... I don't care when they watch and comment on our elections, I don't care when they watch and comment on our immigration laws, I don't care...
yebat' Putin
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What about the church that was blown up in the attacks? Are they rebuilding? Should they be allowed to?
The bottom line is that this would not be an issue in the least if this was a Christian Church.
No one would care .... no one would be protesting ...... and we would not have even heard about it.
However, because it is not "our" preferred religion .... and because people want to associate all members of a certain religion with the vile people who committed the 9-11 attacks .... it cannot be allowed.
Frankly I am ashamed and embarrassed. This is a vile display in its own right.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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So now we have to coddle people who are too thin-skinned? I feel pretty bad for you if you're so sheltered that you're actually insulted by this.
I feel bad for people who are so sheltered and thin skinned that they can't sit through a brief commencement prayor when 99% of the people at the event want to have one.. we all have our issues.
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And I think the KKK would have every single right to build something wherever they want, too.
That's fine for you but you don't think they would face public opposition?
yebat' Putin
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You'll get no argument from me there.
I don't get the people who can't sit through a prayer. I'm not a religious person, but I am pretty adept at distracting myself during something like that.
And there would be an enormous outcry to a KKK building. But they can still build it if they want.
I just have a tough time really comparing the KKK to Islam.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I just have a tough time really comparing the KKK to Islam.
Why? I am a church going Christian person.. I can admit that the KKK is the obnoxious, racist, violent arm of my faith that I do not associate with and do not believe represents anything that I believe in.. I will condemn the KKK at every turn as just about every Christian will... there is a distinct line between those who practice Christianity in a way similar to me.. and those who have bastardized it into what the KKK believes and practices..
Islam has not yet achieved such a distinct line. I believe there is the majority of Islam who preaches and practices peace and there is a radical wing that seeks violence against anybody and everybody, even their own... This faction has not yet been neutralized like the KKK.. does anybody really live in fear of the KKK any more? The problem is that the majority who preach peace, in my opinion, have not been nearly aggressive enough or vocal enough in separating themselves from the radical factions.. sure you can find me some articles and I know they are out there but the mainstream of Islam, stands relatively silent on distancing itself from the radicals...
So the better analogy is to compare Christianity to Islams and the KKK to the radicals... the difference is that Christianity has actively worked to distance itself from the KKK while I don't think Islam has done enough to actively distance itself from the radicals..
yebat' Putin
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If you look at the "distance" between Islam and Radical and violent Islam today compared to 9 years ago, the difference is staggering.
Ordinary Muslims are speaking out against violence. Not just here .... but in Muslim countries as well. The message for a great deal of them has become that hatred and violence is not the answer.
Ordinary Muslims .... like many living in Iraq, in Iran, in Pakistan ,in Egypt, in Turkey, and even Muslims in Saudi Arabia are speaking out against hatred and violence in the name of Islam.
When this started, many of those speaking out against violence did so at risk to themselves. It was not a message that was immediately met with support and approval. However, the message is like a stream of water ...... cutting its way through many Muslim societies ..... growing ... expanding ..... and working its way towards maybe becoming the mainstream one day.
One simple act can create or destroy such a movement. Do we embrace this movement, and back up our lofty words of equality, rights, and freedom ..... or do we destroy their budding faith in the belief that we just might mean what we say?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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But why is that always a one way street????
To put it quite simply, it's not a one-way street. At least not where I live. Let's think more universally than just NYC and 51Park for a moment, shall we?
From my town up through Detroit and all of SE Mich. there exists the single largest concerntation of Muslim people outside of the Middle East- and this includes all of Europe. That's right- largest in the World.
Every single day, I see people of all faiths and stripes coexisting without evidence of religious intolerance or strife of any sort....and I've lived here for 20 years. People live and work next to each other every day without problems. They raise their kids, who attend the same schools. They shop and engage in trade daily, with no animus that I can see.
During those dark hours and days immediately after the 9/11 attacks, there were any number of "healing moments," where people came together in stirring examples of interfaith cooperation and mutual support. I think those ceremonies did a lot to help keep our community from becoming a total powder keg of rampant hatred and religious bigotry. I was seriously concerned for my Muslim neighbors, but guess what? Not a single incident that I can recall.
It made me proud of my American neighbors.
Events such as the ones I described, coupled with the daily expressions of peaceful coexistence that I see are evidence- hard evidence- of tolerance and acceptance being practiced by "both sides." (I placed those words inside quotation marks, because there really is only one "side," from my POV.)
Even within the Middle East, there are Christian establishments that are tolerated and accepted by the vast majority of Muslims. We only hear about the attacks and bombings because people living peacefully side-by-side isn't "news."
Not every Muslim is an intolerant, murderous terrorist. And I doubt that the people planning 51Park are, either.
And to reverse the rhetorical question: if you chose to buy/build a home in a particular neighborhood, and some "kindly" individual offered to you a different location- just because they didn't want you nearby- would you take the offer? Would you be insulted? Would you be flattered? What would YOU do? Now, keep iin mind- the property has already been purchased. What steps would you take... if the shoe was on the other foot?
PETE- I believe that you're only put-off or insulted because you choose to be. You actually have a choice here. You could actually choose to see it this way: it's a simple piece of property. Property that will now be put to use, after a decade of neglect and decay. How it is used is only problematic if YOU attach some special meaning to it.
It's only a problem if you allow yourself to borrow trouble.
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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I think they will have a hard time finding trade workers to build the place.
I doubt the place is ever started as the bids will probably be a multiple of 5.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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And to reverse the rhetorical question: if you chose to buy/build a home in a particular neighborhood, and some "kindly" individual offered to you a different location- just because they didn't want you nearby- would you take the offer? Would you be insulted? Would you be flattered? What would YOU do? Now, keep iin mind- the property has already been purchased. What steps would you take... if the shoe was on the other foot?
Clem, this is not quite as simple as "just because they didn't want you nearby" people from all over the country don't want it built there and they have no "nearby" component to their argument other than its proximity to a site of great national significance......
as for your example, if sombody had a compelling reason to not want me nearby then I would have to consider that reason before I could tell you how insulted I would be.. I doubt I would be flattered though. I can honestly say that if I was building a place of peace and bridge building, the last thing I think I would want is to build it where a large majority of people didn't want it and were already going to approach it with a negative attitude.
My opinion is that a year after they build it (and I think they will eventually build it unless the Imam backs down first) this will be a non-issue except for the occassional "How is the mosque doing?" op-ed story in the NYTimes which will be used as little more than an opportunity to blast the right as intolerant since the Muslims at the mosque have not done any damage yet.. (not that I think they will)
yebat' Putin
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J/C So, is this being built on the site or just near it? (sorry, it hasn't been asked in the past few posts and I just couldn't resist  )
#gmstrong
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I've heard it is approximately 500 feet from the sacred ground zero site to the proposed mosque of terror property... 
yebat' Putin
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Clem...you can try to reason with yourself on the justification on whether or not I should be insulted till the cows come home....In the end...it is still a guess. Whether educated or not..... I can never understand any of the events of sheer ignorance and racism that you have endured during your lifetime. I have not walked in your shoes. And try that I might, I will never truly understand. I wish I could relate, but I never will.
Conversely you have not lived in my shoes. You have not seen the ignorance thrown my way.
But in order to try and give a small sense of understanding. I lost friends that day. I am by no way special in that. But I remember that day and the waiting for days after to find out who died and who lived. And all the while I am seeing images on the television and in the papers of people dancing in the streets. Not radicals....not extremists....just normal, everyday people dancing in the streets because their religion told them that this was a good thing. But it wasn't just in the Middle East where this was going on, but here in the USA as well.
I don't hold Islam responsible. I don't hate on the religion. As a matter of fact, on the first day of Ramadan, I contact all of my Muslim friends and I wish them well on their journey(of fasting) and hope they find the spiritualness they are looking for. At times I have even fasted with them for a day. They appreciate the support. So while I respect and honor them...they respect and honor me as well.
But that does not take away the feelings from that day. And While logically I support their right to build their rec center on that location. I am insulted by the fact that the group has ignored the feelings of those who have been impacted by the events of 9-11. Feelings they know people are going to have. And do they approach this as a bridge of peace??? No, they approach in in a air of defiance....I can't help how I feel....I just do....I can control my actions and do the right thing....but that doesn't mean the feelings go away....that the images of the dancing people leave my head. That the loss of my friends has been filled.
Lets dream up a hypothetical example on the other spectrum.......if I were to buy up some land very cheap in Iraq. The land is cheap because it was destroyed when it had been hit by a stray US bomb and innocent lives had been lost. If I would proceed to build a Browns Sports Bar on the very site for US Servicemen where liquor is served, etc. I would be behaving in a manner that completely disregards the thoughts and wishes of the people in the area. Should or would those people just sit idly by and allow me to build my Bar???
For me it really isn't a matter of muslim or not...it is more a matter of the insensitivity shown by the group proposing this rec center. It was going to be an OBVIOUS sore spot with MANY people...and they trucked through those feelings with no compassion or understanding whatsoever.
For me....It isn't a matter of if they have the right to do so...that has never been in question....they do....I have an issue with the lack of class, respect, and manners in they way they are doing so..
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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I respect your opinion on the matter, but I want to throw this out there in regard to "ignored the feelings of those who have been impacted by the events of 9-11".
Remember, there were Muslims inside the towers as well.
If it weren't for some news Journalist who caught wind of this and saw it as a way to write a story that would gather headlines and put his name out for the all to see, most if anyone would have even known unless you lived nearby.
No one seemed to complain when they were going through the process in 2006 of buying the property next door at a price of 4.8 mil (which was finalized in 2009), or when they inquired about buying the property connected through common walls, that they have been leasing, which is the 51 Park Place property (Which the purchase is not finalized that I read).
Is the concept in bad taste. Yeah I would go along with that, but I also believe our forefathers who came here to escape religious persecution, and wanted a country that was free to worship however you saw fit. And unless this specific group can be proven to have done negative things to Americans or to have skirted the property and building rule and regulations, I see no reason not to allow it.
Sometimes it's better to let go of the hate and discontent.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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And to reverse the rhetorical question: if you chose to buy/build a home in a particular neighborhood, and some "kindly" individual offered to you a different location- just because they didn't want you nearby- would you take the offer? Would you be insulted? Would you be flattered? What would YOU do? Now, keep iin mind- the property has already been purchased. What steps would you take... if the shoe was on the other foot?
If I were looking at buying a house, and I found out the neighbors didn't want me there - I would NOT buy the house.
Were I to buy land - and THEN find out the neighbors didn't want me there - I would sell the land - even at a loss, and buy somewhere else.
Why? Because I want to get along with my neighbors. I don't have to be best buddies with them - but by the same token, I don't want them driving past my house thinking "asshat lives there".
Any neighborhood I would move into has a "basis" - there is an established set of rules, whether written or not. I need to be able to abide by those written or unwritten rules if I am to happily live there.
If I knew I wasn't wanted in a certain neighborhood - due to my race, my income (or lack there of), my height, the vehicles I drive, etc............I wouldn't move in. That's just me.
This has nothing to do with a "right" to build a mosque - or a rec center.
Where I live - and have for almost 11 years - there is a prison within 2 miles (maybe 2 1/2).......while it wasn't set up to be a "prison" per se - that's what it is.
Now, I chose that - however - if a prison were going to be built in the back yard - the 140 acres or so back there (not mine), I would definitely be at the zoning meetings, etc, saying "I don't want that here. You have a right to do it, but I don't want it in my backyard". And if all my neighbors felt the same - well, there would probably be problems - problems that the jail would rather not deal with - at least that's my guess. The jail might be better served by buying land somewhere else.
Does that make any sense to you, or should I try again - explain further?
Again - I don't care about a mosque/rec center. Build one in the field behind me - I don't care. I'm not talking about the "right" to build one, I'm talking about the "smarts" of building something where it is not wanted. (notice, I said "something")
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How many of the people protesting would even pass by the thing on a regular basis?
That's something I found during a protest to a WalMart site down the street from me. The news reporters were talking to people and found out that most didn't even live nearby, or lived much closer to the WalMart 10 miles up the road than this proposed one. They were there because they had a friend who was against it and asked them to help out.
Does that make sense. I guess what I'm saying is I have seen people protest and oppose things just for the sake of being involved at the request of a friend. That the particular thing they were protesting had no affect on their lives t all.
The proposed Mosque is not being built ON Ground Zero, it will be a couple blocks away. What would be considered an acceptable distance from Ground Zero? Are we going to scrutinize every business or building that goes up near Ground Zero to be sure it doesn't detract from what it symbolizes?
On another note, it's not like they are just building a mosque. It will be a cultural center for all. The mosque part will only be on the top 2 floors of a 13 story building.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 08/24/10 04:00 PM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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How many of the people protesting would even pass by the thing on a regular basis?
I have no idea. And I don't care to. They have a right to build it there.
All I'm saying is I wouldn't build something in a certain area if the neighbors didn't want it there.
I don't care about the mosque/rec center/whatever else it's called.
What I'm talking about is, regardless of "right", why build something where it's not wanted?
You probably live in a subdevelopment. (and I'm sure there are rules there)...but let's assume I could buy the 3 lots next to you, and legally put in a strip joint, combined with a shooting range.............(check out "hot chicks with guns" on youtube"
Now, even though I have a "right" to do that (zoning ordinances aside for the sake of discussion), would that be my best bet, as far as location? To build that business in the heart of an area that didn't want it?
I don't care where this mosque is built. Put it in the field behind me for all I care.
What I'm saying is, "if I ran X business, and wanted to build in Y area, but the residents of Y didn't want it there, I'd find somewhere else to build it."
That's it - nothing more, nothing less.
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