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Quote:
It hurts to say this, but the best drafts so far belong to the guy we got rid of. Because some of the guys picked and we let go, are starters on other teams or good second teamers, if nothing else worth the point of selection.
I tend to agree, the few players we have now who make an impact are thanks to that guy.
Once Mangini is fired, a whopping 2 players from the 09 draft will remain. I still can't help but chuckle a bit at those who thought that was a successful draft.
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all i know is this... we need a right tackle..
We never draft for that spot.
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Once Mangini is fired, a whopping 2 players from the 09 draft will remain. I still can't help but chuckle a bit at those who thought that was a successful draft.
Mack, Massaquoi, Robiskie, plus Maiava and Davis. Which 3 of the 5 do you think we get rid of?
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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u know Mack isn't going anywhere...
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I don't think Mass or Robo are going anywhere, either. That's why I asked.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Just getting Mack, and the potential  of MassQ and Robiskie made it a good draft. Mack is gonna anchor the middle of the line for a decade.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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2nd String
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Quote:
I don't think Mass or Robo are going anywhere, either. That's why I asked.
The amount of respect Robo gets here is just laughable.
For someone that's only had 7 Catches in his career so far, there has been no reason to jump on the band wagon.
I recall 3 Players that got decent cheers when I was at the Brown/White Scrimmage.
Cribbs for obvious reasons. McCoy, once again for obvious reasons. And lastly, Robo, just because simply he was from OSU.
Where a player comes from should have NO IMPACT on how you think of them as a player.
I'll reserve my judgement on Robo until I see him either produce or become a bust.
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I can see the potential for debate for the other picks, but who do you think was still on the board when we picked that was better for us than Haden?
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Quote:
Quote:
I don't think Mass or Robo are going anywhere, either. That's why I asked.
The amount of respect Robo gets here is just laughable.
For someone that's only had 7 Catches in his career so far, there has been no reason to jump on the band wagon.
I recall 3 Players that got decent cheers when I was at the Brown/White Scrimmage.
Cribbs for obvious reasons. McCoy, once again for obvious reasons. And lastly, Robo, just because simply he was from OSU.
Where a player comes from should have NO IMPACT on how you think of them as a player.
I'll reserve my judgement on Robo until I see him either produce or become a bust.
I am a life-long Michigan fan, so being from OSU is a strike against you in my book, but I don't care after you become a Brown.
The point is that Robo is our #2 receiver. Even if we acquire a true #1, he would still be our #3. He would have to drop more balls than Braylon to be let go. Will he be great? I doubt it, but I hope so. But he is our #2 and we don't have anyone better, yet.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Well I also realize that a first round pick is FAR from a sure thing (how many busts have we seen overall..)
A lot of people talk about great teams being able to hit on their late round picks (basically 5 through 7 ... where 3rd could be starters, 4ths could be backups and in my opinion I would say 5th through 7th are practice squad at worst, special teamers and bottom of the roster or 'flyers')
But I also want to point out (possibly the obvious) ... if you want to be GOOD and not Great, you cant afford to miss out on your first few rounders either!!
Our first round (which should be what ... 70 or 80% success rate possibly? as in about 3 out of 4 1st rounders are starters and studs..?)
Joe Thomas (2007)
Alex Mack (2009 ... Looks good so far .. too early too tell for sure..)
Joe Haden (2010 ... Jury is yet to decide)
Off the top of my head .. Our 2008 effectively was turned into Quinn (for extra picks to trade up with Dallas) ... which was turned into Peyton Hillis ... I love him so far .. but I dont know who would have spent a first rounder on him .. (I know we still have to count next years seventh for the deal and one of our sixth's from this year was in it too)..
Kellen Turned into David "Look Ma, No Tackles" Veikune ...
And The Braylon deal is the only one that looks like it is solid .. but that doesnt justify that we took Braylon rather than build
Not trying to show how good my hindsight is ... but I also know if players like Hardesty, Ward, Robiskie and Massaquoi dont pan out to be at least starters ... we will still be havin this same conversation in 2012 and 2013 ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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 I didn't want to take that other thread off track so I thought I'd post a new thread... just how bad was that 2009 draft? Maybe MoMass and Robo will still show us something, but at this point it looks like a big flop outside of Mack. You have THREE picks in the 2nd round and can't hit on ONE of them? Wish Heckert was here to run that draft, I'd imagine a very different draft board (assuming he traded the Sanchez pick).
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 Visually that's how I see it. Red = gone. Grey = here but not sure if a NFL caliber player.
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If MoMass and Robo can at least be solid 2 and 3 receivers it won't be so bad.. but then as Browns fans our expectations are pretty low.. if we get one midlevel NFL talent from each draft that's pretty much the norm.. 
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
If MoMass and Robo can at least be solid 2 and 3 receivers it won't be so bad.. but then as Browns fans our expectations are pretty low.. if we get one midlevel NFL talent from each draft that's pretty much the norm..
It's too bad that the norm around here has been if 1 pick can work out, then it's a good draft.
Hopefully H&H will bring some stability to this part of the process.
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You can cross Maivia off too, he was a total reach. You dont draft STers in the 4th on a team as devoid of talent as ours. If Heckert were running the draft I am willing to bet we'd have a RT.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Mack is a stud and will be fine for the next 10+ years..
Robo hasn't proven anything yet,, but you gotta get the ball to him somewhat consistently to find out.
MoMass has shown he's got hands, but again, you gotta get him the ball more than a couple times a game to consider him better.
Viekune has been cut and I don't think anyone has picked him up. That should say all that needs said.
Mieava (sp) got injured, I was hoping to see him get some time as the year went on, but that looks somewhat unlikely at this point. Too bad.. decent special teamer however..
Don Carey was wasted pick. Don't have anyhing to say cause I never saw him play.
Coye Francies, I don't know what to think of him.., he seemed like he was going to be pretty good in the Secondary during his first camp,, then nothing.. he's gone
James Davis: eh,, can't evaluate him until he plays.. I'll reserve judgment..
It's a C- in my eyes because we got a stud Center, and we may have a couple of good receivers out of the bunch..If Davis can contribute,, I'll take it to a C+
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'm till on the fence overall about the draft.
Mack is a stud...so a first round win and thats a plus...
Robiskie and MoMass...lets wait one more year before we really take our judgment up. MoMass is our leading receiver so thats a plus, Robiskie needs to improve big time though.
Veikune, Carey, and Francies are gone. so thats no good...especially Veikune. What i didnt get...is why did we try to make him an ILB...the man played with his hand in the ground his whole college career...he could have been our pass rusher extraordinaire...im not sure what we were thinking in our handling with him.
Kaluka Maiava...I'm not down on this pick. In the 4th round you take a player that isnt going to start right away but can become a rotational player...however, in our search for starters we have somewhat squeezed him out in rotationality...but a number of these LBs wont be here next year and Maiava can be a good backup. Look for Barton, Bowens, and a couple others to not be here. Maiava can settle in as a backup after that, not to mention continue to be a special teams beast.
Davis...well we dont know yet. But a guy that we think can really do some good things for us...thats a great 6th round pick imo.
ALSO...
while we look at just the picks the draft looks suspect...
Abe Elam has looked good so far this year...amazing, you put talent next to him and he looks muuuuuuuuch better.
Kenyon Coleman...he's going to start for us as long as he's healthy for the rest of the time he's here.
CJ Mosley...cut. oh well...he did a decent job for us in small amounts last year
Brett Ratliff...cut, oh well, he played the #3 like a champ last year.
and...Marcus Benard came in as a UDFA...id include that in the draft...
SO...
Mack, Coleman, Benard, Elam, Davis, MoMass (a solid #2), and Robo (if he can get himself going...i think he can). That looks muuuuuuch better. So the 2009 draft...really, despite the picks being overall suspect, we really got some talent out of the whole thing.
Yea Francies, Carey, Veikune (huge mistake), Mosley, and Ratliff werent good for us, we acquired a good base of talent to add around while we stockpile going forward.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Good points.
Veikune is the biggest disapointment from 2009 - a 2nd round pick who failed mightily. After Wimbley and Veikune, I now hate drafting tweeners. You need an LB? Then draft a real one, one who played it in college!
gmstrong -----------------
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furthermore...the trade and the moves allowed us to make other moves that have paid off even better.
Getting Robo and MoMass allowed us to rid ourselves of Braylon which netted us Trusnik (who im a HUGE fan of) and Stuckey (who is good in the slot) as well as a pick and it also netted us Shaun Lauvao which is GREAT...Also, having those guys and a shift in philosophy (and luckily later in the season Evan Moore), allowed us to rid Kellen Winslow which helped us get Hardesty...who we're going to love next year back in full health.
Our 2009 draft...while it did involve a miss on some picks, which you have to deal with with a new coach (they had a shorter time to prepare than a coach who had a year of evaluation of the team before picking) it did allow us to stockpile a base of talent which allowed us to make some moves and do some posturing with our future draft and our players that didnt fit.
EDIT:
just to clarify "a base of talent"...i dont mean guys that are going to start and be stars...but, guys that can play the system and not kill us. a base of talent to be competitive in most every game...
one other note though...
why didnt we take Clay Matthews? that kid is unbelieveable
Last edited by KingSteve; 09/22/10 11:41 AM.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Quote:
Good points.
Veikune is the biggest disapointment from 2009 - a 2nd round pick who failed mightily. After Wimbley and Veikune, I now hate drafting tweeners. You need an LB? Then draft a real one, one who played it in college!
Might be a worthwhile mantra to adopt... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I wouldn't have made all the trades that we did, but if I had I would have drafted:
1) Clay Matthews (and yes I can say that, I said we should draft him #5 overall if we can't trade down.)
2a) Maualuga (which obviously would have been a blown pick)
2b) Loadholt (we all went in saying we needed a RT, and most thought for sure he was the pick when we went on the clock)
2c) Shady McCoy (ditto from above)
4) Zack Follett (was pimping him pretty hard along with saying we needed 4 new linebackers out of the draft. He was first team all Pac-10 and was 3rd in the nation in TFLs. Maiava was 2nd-team all Pac-10... but hunts boar with a knife :eyeroll:)
6a) Francies (just because it was so ridiculous he was still on the board at that point
6b) A.Q. Shipley (won center of the year in college over Mack... but hasn't shown to be a pro stud and is smallish)
6c) Ricky Jean-Francois (low risk being a 6th rounder)
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I'm trying to reserve judgement on MoMass and Robo until we get a real QB (as if that's something we can get soon). MoMass seems like a solid WR. He could be a solid #2 (depending on the scheme). Robo seems like a #3-4 WR....can make a catch, but isn't going to carry a team.
Robo was a wasted pick. But he's still here and this is essentially his first year being a WR in the NFL. So give him some more time.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Quote:
Good points.
Veikune is the biggest disapointment from 2009 - a 2nd round pick who failed mightily. After Wimbley and Veikune, I now hate drafting tweeners. You need an LB? Then draft a real one, one who played it in college!
That's a good point - taking guys and converting them seems like a rather difficult challenge so why bother?
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There's just not enough teams in college that run the 3-4. In order to fill the rush OLB spot, you virtually have no other choice but to take an athletic, quick DE and convert him to that position (Clay Matthews is an exception but a total terror off the edge).
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Cal runs a 3-4 too, which Follet started in.  just sayin
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How bad was the 2009 draft? Everyone in here has been told many many times how bad the decisions were to draft these guys..yet a lot of U have tried many a weak comeback to defend Mangini's choices..a lot of you often remark: "HINDSIGHT" ..right Daman??
"Or U can't judge a draft for three years"...
Well it only took 18 games for some of you to see what I saw on draft day..
Why isn't someone pecking at Cdawg for starting this thread???
Actually it just proves the point,whether it was me,or DJ or Mourg..or a few others..it was a waste..and with only 2 starters out of it ,and one of those is really a second WR..and the rest are being cut/placed on IR ,not performing, it was a wasted draft..
Anyone waiting for Robo to suddenly become a go to target..hope you have some life insurance,cuze it ain't happening..he's a guy you go to when you need a first down ..not a # 2 guy..
I said it draft day ,after draft day and kept saying it..Mangini knew he wanted to trade Braylon..he should have drafted a a # 1 type to have on the roster ready to go whenever a deal went down..that guy could have been the # 2 until Edwards was gone..
Veikune..wow..huge reach..and for those who don't understand the 34 ..if you want a OLB ,you take a undersized DE from college who has a career of being a sack master and who can drop down in coverage..usually OLB's in college make for ILB's in a 34..
Maiava..someone was trying to sell the fact he was the best of USC's 4 LB's..maybe it was their LB coach???
Mangini sure bought it ..I didn't..:p 
I swear this had Botch Davis written all over it again..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/22/10 02:32 PM.
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I'm not saying no one runs it. I'm saying it's very rare. For the record, I was a huge mid-round Follett pimp
Just sayin'...
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
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Quote:
Why isn't someone pecking at Cdawg for starting this thread???
Sorry for starting a thread on a message board to discuss a Browns football topic.
This board is just too funny sometimes. That's why some have come and left this place.
And here's an example if you don't believe me: http://i54.tinypic.com/29av6md.png
Last edited by CDawg; 09/22/10 03:00 PM.
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If U read my comments before I asked that about U..U'd understand why..
Every single time I question the moves this organization makes in the draft a bunch of posters chirp that it's hindsight..but U started this thread and some of the ones who respond to me that way aren't complaining about the thread..interesting.
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Quote:
If U read my comments before I asked that about U..U'd understand why..
Every single time I question the moves this organization makes in the draft a bunch of posters chirp that it's hindsight..but U started this thread and some of the ones who respond to me that way aren't complaining about the thread..interesting.
I see - it's the 'I get picked on so everyone should mentality'.
Ok, now I understand. Didn't know you were referring to the 5th grade again.
Maybe it's b/c you attack people personally? In replying to my post you decide to ask people to 'peck' at me. You want others to fight w/ me b/c they have fought with you, yet I've never done anything to you.
Food for thought.
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Lets try this one more time,then I'm done..I'm not asking anyone to fuss about the thread..I'm saying the posters fuss/moan because I criticized Mangini for his draft..some of those have already posted and haven't fussed about this thread..U don't or can't see the irony in it..and whatever link U posted ,I can't view it..it's blurred.
fyi ...I'm not thin skinned..I don't fold up like a accordian and run for cover when people come back at me..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 09/22/10 03:25 PM.
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Quote:
Mack is a stud and will be fine for the next 10+ years..
I am not quite yet ready to label Alex Mack as a stud just yet...He is no where near Joe Thomas Ability coming out of the gate as a rookie...In fact, Mack Struggled mightly and got his rear end handed to him against Ngata last year in the Ravens game.
This i not the mention Mack got owned pretty much the entire second half of the Bucs game by the rookie Gerald McCoy..McCoy winning against Mack was the part reason we couldn't run the ball in the second half.
and then last week, Mack lost his composure and made statements to the press about Shaun smith of the Cheifs doing something to him..again..Mack didn't look any better the "average" since he got here...but that may be a stud to us..Joe Thomas is a stud..Mack has shown so far that he is an average center...he has not shown Pro Bowl type of potential YET...he may though..it way too soon to tell about Mack
I am not labeling Mack a bust, its way too soon for that, but he has not played to a JT type of level at Center, he hasn't yet played at a Pro Bowl level either...thus far in his Career Mack has looked average (and thats better then a bust let me tell ya! )
As for Robob and MoMass..they have both looked average as well...we will just have to see on those guys as well..the rest...can go bag shopping bags at Walmart..
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Unless I'm mistaken, JT came out as THE must-have LT in his draft. Mack is a center we traded down for a bunch. A little bit different.
Historically (this year and last) Mack has looked average against mostly above-average and excellent defensive fronts (AFC North).
Based on his competition, I'll go out on a limb and give him a stud label even though it's too early.
Since you're comparing him to JT: Thomas had a drive-killing (which ones aren't) holding call against him this past game.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Viekune has been cut and I don't think anyone has picked him up. That should say all that needs said.
Not only that, but Maiava hits the IR and with an opportunity to resign Viekune we grab Titus Brown instead. Can you even be considered a bust if you never make it on the field?
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Draft position is the nature of the beast,good LT's go early and JT is a good LT.
You said Mack has looked average,and I agree with you.Started out bad and has progressed to average.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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to be fair, you need to remember that carey showed a lot of promise. it was only an injury that screwed everything up because we wanted to waive him injured to get him on IR but that subjected him to the wire and the jags took him. i don't know how he's doing now but at the time, it was viewed as a "dirty" move. that said, i remember there was a lot of excitement around him before the injury.
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after some quick reserach, don carey is the jag's current nickleback.
to also be fair, keep in mind that the whole kokinis thing didn't work out. we don't know why but all of a sudden, mangini needed to make personnel decisions. looking at the moves, it was clear he decided to get high-character players and rule out questionable people. right or wrong, it was a way to simplify the process. at least he was consistent.
not saying the 09 draft was acceptable, but it was understandable.
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All Pro
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Only one starter from the whole draft? How can this draft be seen any higher than a D at this point? If one of the WR's becomes a solid #2 I will upgrade the draft to a D+. If Davis becomes a productive starter I will upgrade to a C.
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Quote:
why didnt we take Clay Matthews? that kid is unbelieveable
I remember people on here saying Matthews would be a bust.
He would look great in Orange and Brown right now. Six sacks in two games. Will anyone on our defense record six sacks this year?
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,340
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,340 |
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Benard gets 11 or 12 this season!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum With the cuts today our draft
history looks ... terrible
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![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)
![[Linked Image from i45.tinypic.com]](http://i45.tinypic.com/adhq2o.gif)
