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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Why don't most people steal, or commit pre-meditated murder? Because they are afraid of the consequences
I don't believe that. I believe MOST people don't do those things because they were raised with the belief that it is wrong to do so. And most people who do...do these things.....are NOT thinking of the consequences when they do them....
I certainly am not avoiding the recreational killing spree's for fear of the police....what about you DC????Phil???arch???Excl???Clem???heck ....anyone???
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Legend
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Legend
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For those who don't like hearing my emotional response to the potential murder of a thousand or so children, propose some other effective response.
Here's the thing. Your anger is not geared to those extremist that were planning the event, it is geared to all who share the extremist so called religious connection.
If it was a white Christian group that had planned to bomb your kids school, would you be wanting all Christians killed? If it was an group of 80 year old military vets, would you want all old people killed or all military people killed?
I understand your anger, but I also see a lot of people allowing their emotions to blind them to the real culprits. You can't just eliminate and entire group/sect/class because some people within that group take things to the extreme.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Legend
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I agree.. I will say however that there are things I don't do for fear of the consequences.. I don't drive 90 on the interstate though I have no moral objection to doing it, I don't want the $300 reckless driving ticket.. I don't fudge my taxes even though I think the government gets enough of my money, I don't want the audit... I'm not going to leave work early to play golf, then get drunk then go home at 11:00 tonight because the consequences would be unfreakin' believable..  I could probably come up with other examples but you get the point... However his list about stealing from others, murder, rape.. they could make those things legal tomorrow and I still wouldn't do them.. consequences or no consequences.
yebat' Putin
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Dawg Talker
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To illustrate this - We will take out a front-page ad in your local newspaper tomorrow. It will announce that there will be no legal or civil penalty for any act that takes place on your property for the next 48 hours. Any property taken, or destroyed, any harm to any person, of any kind, would not be punished or even publicized in any way. We would have to hypothetically assume that everyone would believe this. We'll even limit this to only those persons living in a three block radius of your house.
How safe do you think your belongings, wife, kids, yourself personally would be? How do people act when they believe that nothing bad will happen to them as a consequence of their actions?
Ah, but there is more. What do you want to happen to the people who do bad things? Nothing at all? Is that a society you want to live in?
Now, for those who missed it, blueprints of 5 US schools were found in the hands of terrorists. One of them was attended by one of my children. This is personal.
The Muslim community needs to purge itself of these animals and those who assist them, just like the Catholics need to purge themselves of the child molesters and those who assist them. Since they have failed to do this, they bear some responsibility. How much? The guy who plants the bomb in the middle school, sure. The guy who planned it, the guy who built the bomb, the guy who interpreted the blueprints for them, the one that cooks lunch, the one that does their laundry, the ones who knew what was going on and said nothing, every single SOB involved in any way.
No, I would not make a good terrorist. I would try very hard to avoid killing children, and women, unless they were armed.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Now, for those who missed it, blueprints of 5 US schools were found in the hands of terrorists.
Can you post where this was printed? I've never heard of this.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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No, I would not make a good terrorist. I would try very hard to avoid killing children, and women, unless they were armed.
Actually what you said was to kill every one them.
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Legend
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just to give this thread closure.... web page Fla. minister cancels burning of Qurans on 9/11 GAINESVILLE, Fla. – A Florida minister who had created an international furor with his plan to burn the Quran on the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks canceled the event under intense pressure Thursday, saying he agreed to back off after reaching a deal to move the location of a controversial mosque near New York's ground zero. The Rev. Terry Jones announced his decision Thursday afternoon, standing outside his small church alongside Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida. However, Musri and the imam planning the New York mosque disputed Jones' contention that a deal had been cut. After the news conference, Musri told The Associated Press there was an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday — on the actual anniversary of the 9/11 attacks — with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero. "I told the pastor that I personally believe the mosque should not be there, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it is moved," Musri said. "But there is not any offer from there (New York) that it will be moved. All we have agreed to is a meeting, and I think we would all like to see a peaceful resolution." Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf said he was surprised by the announcement and that he would not barter. Jones, the pastor of a Florida Pentecostal church of 50 members, has said that he believes the Quran is evil because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims. Jones on Thursday said he prayed about the decision and that if the site of the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning. "We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said during the news conference. We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it." His decision comes after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. President Barack Obama, the top U.S. general in Afghanistan and several Christian leaders had urged Jones to reconsider his plans. They said his actions would endanger U.S. soldiers and provide a strong recruitment tool for Islamic extremists. Jones' protest also drew criticism from religious and political leaders from across the Muslim world. They warned that the plan would put Americans in danger around the world. In Afghanistan, hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning. Musri thanked Jones and his church members "for making the decision today to defuse the situation and bring to a positive end what has become the world over a spectacle that no one would benefit from except extremists and terrorists" who would use it to recruit future radicals. Russ Blackburn, Gainesville city manager: "It's very good news for Gainesville and good news for everyone involved." Jones' neighbors in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus, also have said they disapprove. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city have mobilized to plan inclusive events — some will read from the Quran at their own weekend services. Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Hall of Famer
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Now they can burn something that unites all religions - LeBron jerseys.
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Legend
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"Offend them? Kill them. Kill them all. Kill every last one of them, do not leave two bricks standing, cut off their heads, blow them to bits, wipe them from the face of the earth."
You should probably seek counseling.
You sound like Adolf Hitler.
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Dawg Talker
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It's not over.
He is lying because no such agreement has been made. The Islamic Cultural Center in New York is still going to be built. He is doing this because he wants to "try" to hold a religion hostage by denying them the right to build a cultural center.
Because no such agreement has been made, he will announce that he will burn the Qurans in a press conference tomorrow or Saturday.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
It's not over.
He is lying because no such agreement has been made. The Islamic Cultural Center in New York is still going to be built. He is doing this because he wants to "try" to hold a religion hostage by denying them the right to build a cultural center.
Because no such agreement has been made, he will announce that he will burn the Qurans in a press conference tomorrow or Saturday.
How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church going to hold Islam hostage? How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church able to deny a mosque in NYC??????????????
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Dawg Talker
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How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church going to hold Islam hostage? How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church able to deny a mosque in NYC??????????????
I said he is trying to hold them hostage.
In Islam the Quran is the holiest text. Jones knows that. So, he is playing to the anger. He knows Muslims will have an outrcy if he burns it and that it very well could lead to increased violence. If he doesn't, it may blow over. The builders of the Islamic Cultural Center in New York are Muslim. So, Jones is using the media to give the Imam an ultimatum. His ultimatum is:
"You don't build the Cultural Center, I won't burn the Quran."
It is blatant because of his statements. He announced the "burning" was cancelled as a sign of "goodwill" towards the Imam in New York. Of course though, the Imam is not biting. So, Jones is trying to lay the blame on any violence overseas towards American soldiers on the shoulders of the Imam in New York. Because as he put it:
"He's not burning the Quran"
So, based off of that he is trying to put the ball on the Imam in New York's court by trying to force him to stop building the Cultural Center.
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All Pro
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Quote:
Quote:
How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church going to hold Islam hostage? How in God's name is a pastor of a 50 member church able to deny a mosque in NYC??????????????
I said he is trying to hold them hostage.
In Islam the Quran is the holiest text. Jones knows that. So, he is playing to the anger. He knows Muslims will have an outrcy if he burns it and that it very well could lead to increased violence. If he doesn't, it may blow over. The builders of the Islamic Cultural Center in New York are Muslim. So, Jones is using the media to give the Imam an ultimatum. His ultimatum is:
"You don't build the Cultural Center, I won't burn the Quran."
It is blatant because of his statements. He announced the "burning" was cancelled as a sign of "goodwill" towards the Imam in New York. Of course though, the Imam is not biting. So, Jones is trying to lay the blame on any violence overseas towards American soldiers on the shoulders of the Imam in New York. Because as he put it:
"He's not burning the Quran"
So, based off of that he is trying to put the ball on the Imam in New York's court by trying to force him to stop building the Cultural Center.
Really Charlie, because I think what he is saying is "If you use indiscretion in regards to something you have the right to do, so will I.". Both of them legally can do what they want to do...and both of them should think twice about it. EoS.
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Hall of Famer
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Can't we all just burn LeBron jerseys instead?
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Legend
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So, in other words, if this 50 member congregation burns a koran, they are bad. But since they said they won't, they are bad.
Okay.
But, if muslim extremists say they will kill Amercians if he burns korans, that's fine, and his fault. But if he says he won't burn korans, muslim extremists are still okay for saying they will kill americans, because the only reason the florida dude isn't burning them - korans is to make islam look bad. So either way, the extremists can kill and it is someone else's fault.
Got it.
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Dawg Talker
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So, in other words, if this 50 member congregation burns a koran, they are bad. But since they said they won't, they are bad.
Okay.
But, if muslim extremists say they will kill Amercians if he burns korans, that's fine, and his fault. But if he says he won't burn korans, muslim extremists are still okay for saying they will kill americans, because the only reason the florida dude isn't burning them - korans is to make islam look bad. So either way, the extremists can kill and it is someone else's fault.
Got it.
Didn't you just get done talking about how you won't respond to me? That is not what I am saying. I am saying that Burnign the Quran is the equivalent of pelting the Pope with Excrement on Easter Sunday in the Vatican. The throng of Catholics won't sit by and let you do that. The police and Swiss Guard won't get to you in time to save you.
Burning the Quran is provoking Islam. If Christians treated Muslims with respect and stop invading their countries and supporting dictators there and stop trying to "expand their interests" there things would be fine. The Middle East is an area that has been fought over by Europeans since the Crusades. Muslims and Arabs have been ruled over by foreigners for long periods of time in history. They are resentful of foreigners. They want to be left alone. However, the US craves something that they have - OIL, OIL, OIL.
So, US corporations try to exploit the region again and again. The US, being ruled by businessmen, naturally wants to protect big business. Those darn Communists were spreading all over the globe. We have to stop them. How do we? Oh yea, we support the Shah. He'll stop those Communists - and oppress his people. But, hey, at least we are getting all that precious $$$.
Oh, darn, they rose up against the Shah. They didn't like us supporting the Shah. They are violently angry about us supporting the Shah. How will we ever fix this? Oh yea, let's support a dictator in one of the neighboring countries to hold them in check. What's his name? Saddam Hussein? Let's give him some nerve gas and biological weapons so that the can beat Iran. Darn it, this guy is a loose cannon and the Soviets are in Afghanistan. How are we going to protect our interests? Hey, let's train some people to fight as "Holy Warriors" against the USSR. What are they called? Mujahadeen. There's this Osama Bin Laden fellow asking for help. Hey, let's help him against the USSR. Nothing bad will ever come from this ... just like all those other times.
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Legend
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I certainly am not avoiding the recreational killing spree's for fear of the police....what about you DC????Phil???arch???Excl???Clem???heck ....anyone???
I'd avoid it because I find no recreational enjoyment from killing anything. Others' mileage may vary.
...and Nelson:
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No, I would not make a good terrorist. I would try very hard to avoid killing children, and women, unless they were armed.
But just 2 or 3 posts before, you said "kill'em. Kill'em all."
Which Nelson are we to believe? The word "all" implies to me that women, children... everyone is fair game.
The scariest thing about rhetoric like yours is that it is easily and immediately interchangeable with the rhetoric coming out of Tehran, Kabul and any other center for radical Islamist philolosophy.
Sorry, Dawg.... but when I hear words like this, I really don't care where they came from. I find them to be abhorrent in the extreme. They serve no useful purpose, other to vent some anger and perhaps incite someone else to commit atrocities for "the cause." I pretty much view anyone who speaks like this in the same light. I mean, what's the distinction from one group to another, other than a few superficial details? "Kill'em all" has been a rallying cry for radical Islamists, White Supremacists, warring African tribes, historical Middle East adversaries and Asian warlords for centuries and centuries. Millions actually HAVE died, precisely because of speech like this. Talk like this puts you squarely in their camp. You are no better than those whom you hate- you're exactly the same. And the hate just stays and stays.
I've enjoyed others of your posts in the past, but this series from you just chills me to the f*in' bone. I never expected to read something like this from virtually any regular poster on our boards... and seeing it coming from you was a real eye-opener. Trust me- I understand your desire to protect your family, I really do. That protectiveness is one of the strongest instincts we have. But seriously... to kill the restaraunt owner down the street (whose name might be Smith), because he served "your enemy" a meal? The dry cleaners operator (whose name might be Abramowicz), because he cleaned 'your enemy's" clothes? Do you not see how disturbing this might be for others to read?
I sincerely hope you were just venting hollow rhetoric, my Dawg. If not, I'm seriously scared for you. Hate like this can be pretty indiscrimnate once it's unleashed... and amost always leads to senseless tragedy.
Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong to feel the way you do. My place on this planet isn't to dictate what's right for others. What I do hope is that some time from now, you'll re-read your thoughts, and find that you're doing so from a different headspace... because what you're writing now is some pretty scary stuff. You obviously feel justified, and totally unconflicted about this. I'm not so sure I've ever experienced it, though my family has been under threat in the past (actual death threats via anonymous phone calls, years ago).
I guess I was just raised differently.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Dawg Talker
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Quote:
I said he is trying to hold them hostage.
In Islam the Quran is the holiest text. Jones knows that. So, he is playing to the anger. He knows Muslims will have an outrcy if he burns it and that it very well could lead to increased violence. If he doesn't, it may blow over. The builders of the Islamic Cultural Center in New York are Muslim. So, Jones is using the media to give the Imam an ultimatum. His ultimatum is:
"You don't build the Cultural Center, I won't burn the Quran."
It is blatant because of his statements. He announced the "burning" was cancelled as a sign of "goodwill" towards the Imam in New York. Of course though, the Imam is not biting. So, Jones is trying to lay the blame on any violence overseas towards American soldiers on the shoulders of the Imam in New York. Because as he put it:
"He's not burning the Quran"
So, based off of that he is trying to put the ball on the Imam in New York's court by trying to force him to stop building the Cultural Center.
Breaking News: Exactly what I said was happening, is happening
Pastor issues new statement: Quran Burning being reconsidered because "Imam lied to him"
Imam: Pastor misrepresented Quran-burning deal
GAINESVILLE, Fla. — An imam says the leader of a small Florida church told him that he would call off a plan to burn the Quran because it would endanger troops, not because they had a deal to move the location of a mosque planned near ground zero.
Imam Muhammad Musri said late Thursday that he and the Rev. Terry Jones agreed to have a meeting in New York about the location. He says Jones told him he would cancel the burning after a call from the Secretary of Defense and because other religious and political leaders including the president all came out against it.
When they spoke to the media after the meeting, Musri says Jones "stretched my words" about what was said about the mosque.
Jones said at that news conference that he'd cancel the event Saturday. Later he said he was rethinking that and that Musri "clearly, clearly lied to us."
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
GAINESVILLE, Fla. (AP) — An anti-Islamic preacher backed off and then threatened to reconsider burning the Quran on the anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, angrily accusing a Muslim leader of lying to him Thursday with a promise to move an Islamic center and mosque away from New York's ground zero. The imam planning the center denied there was ever such a deal.
The Rev. Terry Jones generated an international firestorm with his plan to burn the Quran on Saturday, the ninth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, and he has been under intense pressure to give it up. President Barack Obama urged him to listen to "those better angels" and give up his "stunt," saying it would endanger U.S. troops and give Islamic terrorists a recruiting tool. Defense Secretary Robert Gates took the extraordinary step of calling Jones personally.
Standing outside his 50-member Pentecostal church, the Dove Outreach Center, alongside Imam Muhammad Musri, the president of the Islamic Society of Central Florida, Jones said he relented when Musri assured him that the New York mosque will be moved.
Hours later, after Musri and the leader of the New York mosque denied such an agreement, Jones said Musri "clearly, clearly lied to us."
"Given what we are now hearing, we are forced to rethink our decision," Jones said. "So as of right now, we are not canceling the event, but we are suspending it."
Jones did not say whether the Quran burning could still be held Saturday, but he said he expected Musri to keep his word and expected "the imam in New York to back up one of his own men."
Jones had never invoked the mosque controversy as a reason for his planned protest. He cited his belief that the Quran is evil because it espouses something other than biblical truth and incites radical, violent behavior among Muslims.
But he said Thursday afternoon that he prayed about the decision and concluded that if the mosque was moved, it would be a sign from God to call off the Quran burning.
"We are, of course, now against any other group burning Qurans," Jones said. "We would right now ask no one to burn Qurans. We are absolutely strong on that. It is not the time to do it."
Musri thanked Jones and his church members "for making the decision today to defuse the situation and bring to a positive end what has become the world over a spectacle that no one would benefit from except extremists and terrorists" who would use it to recruit future radicals.
After the news conference, however, Musri told The Associated Press there is no deal to move the mosque. He said there was only an agreement for him and Jones to travel to New York and meet Saturday with the imam overseeing plans to build a mosque near ground zero.
"I told the pastor that I personally believe the mosque should not be there, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it is moved," Musri said. "But there is not any offer from there (New York) that it will be moved. All we have agreed to is a meeting, and I think we would all like to see a peaceful resolution."
Musri did not immediately return a phone message seeking comment Thursday night after Jones accused him of lying.
In New York, the leader of the Islamic center project, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, issued a statement saying he was glad Jones had decided not to burn the Quran but that he had spoken to neither the pastor nor Musri.
"We are not going to toy with our religion or any other. Nor are we going to barter," Rauf said. "We are here to extend our hands to build peace and harmony."
Jones' decision to call off the Quran burning was made after a firestorm of criticism from leaders around the world. The pope and several other Christian leaders were among those urging him to reconsider his plans, which generated a wave of anger among Muslims. In Afghanistan, hundreds of Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" to protest the planned Quran burning.
Obama told ABC's "Good Morning America" in an interview aired Thursday that Jones' plan "is completely contrary to our values as Americans."
"And as a very practical matter, I just want him to understand that this stunt that he is talking about pulling could greatly endanger our young men and women who are in uniform," Obama said.
Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell confirmed that Gates called Jones about 4 p.m. EST Thursday — shortly before the pastor's announcement. During the "very brief" call, Gates expressed "his grave concern that going forward with this Quran burning would put the lives of our forces at risk, especially in Iraq and Afghanistan," Morrell said.
Morrell said earlier that the decision to issue a personal appeal was not easy because it could provoke other extremists "who, all they want, is a call from so-and-so." After Gates' call to Jones, Morrell said the secretary's "fundamental baseline attitude about this is that if that phone call could save the life of one man or woman in uniform it was a call worth placing."
Husain Haqqani, Pakistan's ambassador to the U.S., thanked Obama, Gates and other administration officials for their efforts. "This is definitely a positive moment in showing America's tolerance and pluralism and should not go unappreciated in the Muslim world," Haqqani said.
The cancellation also was welcomed by Jones' neighbors in Gainesville, a city of 125,000 anchored by the sprawling University of Florida campus. At least two dozen Christian churches, Jewish temples and Muslim organizations in the city had mobilized to plan inclusive events, including Quran readings at services, as a counterpoint to Jones' protest.
Jones' Dove Outreach Center is independent of any denomination. It follows the Pentecostal tradition, which teaches that the Holy Spirit can manifest itself in the modern day. Pentecostals often view themselves as engaged in spiritual warfare against satanic forces.
The pastor was not the only person to inject confusion into the debate over the New York mosque, which is planned to go up two blocks north of the trade center site. Donald Trump, who made a fortune in real estate, offered Thursday to buy out a major investor in the real estate partnership that controls the site where the 13-story Islamic center would be built.
Opponents argue it is insensitive to families and memories of Sept. 11 victims to build a mosque so close to where Islamic extremists flew planes into the World Trade Center and killed nearly 2,800 people. Proponents support the project as a reflection of religious freedom and diversity and say hatred of Muslims is fueling the opposition.
In a letter released Thursday by Trump's publicist, Trump told Hisham Elzanaty that he would buy his stake in one of the two lower Manhattan buildings involved in the project for 25 percent more than whatever he paid — if the mosque is moved at least five blocks farther away from the trade center site.
"I am making this offer as a resident of New York and citizen of the United States, not because I think the location is a spectacular one (because it is not), but because it will end a very serious, inflammatory, and highly divisive situation that is destined, in my opinion, to only get worse," the letter said.
Elzanaty's response: No sale.
"This is just a cheap attempt to get publicity and get in the limelight," said his lawyer, Wolodymyr Starosolsky.
He added that the offer's lack of seriousness is evident in the price.
The group collectively paid $4.8 million for the building Trump offered to buy. The other is being leased.
Starosolsky said the real estate partnership had already received two offers in the ballpark of $20 million.
"He knows what the value of the building is. If he were really interested in buying the building, he would have come forward with at least $20 million," Starosolsky said.
Starosolsky added that Elzanaty remains committed to the idea of having a mosque built on at least part of the property.
It's unclear how much control Elzanaty has over the property, which is owned by an eight-member investment group led by El-Gamal's real estate company, Soho Properties.
El-Gamal said Soho Properties controls the site, but didn't elaborate. His spokesman said he couldn't answer questions about the investment team or ownership issues.
In a pair of interviews with the AP this week, Elzanaty said he had invested in the site with an intention of making a profit and was willing to half the land for private development, and maybe all of it if a Muslim group doesn't come forward with enough money to build the mosque.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Burning the Quran is provoking Islam. If Christians treated Muslims with respect and stop invading their countries and supporting dictators there and stop trying to "expand their interests" there things would be fine. The Middle East is an area that has been fought over by Europeans since the Crusades. Muslims and Arabs have been ruled over by foreigners for long periods of time in history. They are resentful of foreigners. They want to be left alone. However, the US craves something that they have - OIL, OIL, OIL.
Funny in numerous other threads you have said to people "If you changed Muslims to Jews you would sound just like Hitler"... funny thing is that if you changed Muslims to Nazis, you would sound just like Neville Chamberlain.... you share the same type of denial that he enjoyed.. feeling like even the most heinous of people that is willing to blow up himself and his children and your children.. that guy can be reasoned with if you just show compassion and understanding... and if you just keep giving them what they want, they'll be fine, they'll actually start to like you if you just keep caving and giving in... but perhaps what is most scary about your denial and your failure to comprehend in the history you spew so regularly is the ability for a small group of dangerous radicals to convince and mobilize a large body of people in a relatively short period of time to do things they would have never dreamed of doing before because they feel emboldened by a common cause and a weak target......
I will add my disclaimer here that I'm not calling Muslims Nazis.. I'm just stating that a lot of the factors that gave rise to the Nazi party and ultimately led to the extermination of Jews, the conquest of Europe and the deaths of some 60 million people... the factors that led to it are sort of similar with what we have today, the major difference being that the Muslims are not geographically fixed, however there are over a billion of them and no way to know which or how many could be influenced.... interesting times for sure...
yebat' Putin
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Funny in numerous other threads you have said to people "If you changed Muslims to Jews you would sound just like Hitler"... funny thing is that if you changed Muslims to Nazis, you would sound just like Neville Chamberlain.... you share the same type of denial that he enjoyed.. feeling like even the most heinous of people that is willing to blow up himself and his children and your children.. that guy can be reasoned with if you just show compassion and understanding... and if you just keep giving them what they want, they'll be fine, they'll actually start to like you if you just keep caving and giving in... but perhaps what is most scary about your denial and your failure to comprehend in the history you spew so regularly is the ability for a small group of dangerous radicals to convince and mobilize a large body of people in a relatively short period of time to do things they would have never dreamed of doing before because they feel emboldened by a common cause and a weak target......
I will add my disclaimer here that I'm not calling Muslims Nazis.. I'm just stating that a lot of the factors that gave rise to the Nazi party and ultimately led to the extermination of Jews, the conquest of Europe and the deaths of some 60 million people... the factors that led to it are sort of similar with what we have today, the major difference being that the Muslims are not geographically fixed, however there are over a billion of them and no way to know which or how many could be influenced.... interesting times for sure...
So, I am like Neville Chamberlain. Alright, let's play this game.
I am like Neville Chamberlain because I am calling people out for their persecution of Muslims. Wheras, Chamberlain simply wanted to avoid war by making teritorial consessions to Germany. Religious tolerance = giving territory to a dictator?
That is a bit of a leap there.
I am more like Heinrich Heine with his warnings about hatred and bigotry and how they will lead to violence. This Islamophobia that the Tea Party and GOP are embracing will come to bite them. You can't run off of Hate. The second you do, even if you are doing it just for political gain, you invite the real whackjobs who actually WILL take action.
You are running off the idea that "Muslims" are the bad guy. "Illegal Immigrants" are the bad guy. "Atheists" are the bad guys. "Homosexuals" are the bad guys. So, you already have a list of people you are targeting. Muslims are bad because they are terrorists. Illegal Immigrants are bad because they are looking for a "free ride". Atheists are bad because they undermine "Christian values". Homosexuals are bad because they "undermine the sanctity of marriage".
That is a LOT of hate. You are attracting and playing into the Anti-Muslim, Anti-Immigrant, Anti-Atheist, Anti-Gay crowd. That is dangerous, that is extremely dangerous.
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Charlie .... the latest poll about the Mosque in New York that I saw had something like 2/3 of Americans polled against the Mosque being built there.
2/3 of Americans are not Republican, Tea Party, or Conservatives.
There are a lot of people on your side of the aisle with a similar stance.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Charlie .... the latest poll about the Mosque in New York that I saw had something like 2/3 of Americans polled against the Mosque being built there.
2/3 of Americans are not Republican, Tea Party, or Conservatives.
There are a lot of people on your side of the aisle with a similar stance.
Polls mean nothing. I wasn't asked in that poll. My best friend in New York wasn't asked in that poll. Polls use a random group of people. Selecting random people is no way to determine how 250,000,000 people feel about something. I can come up with a poll that shows 2/3 of Americans polled favors the mosque. I'll just go ask some people at a Muslim Festival. Then I can claim that 100% of Americans favor it. Or, for your favorite, I can wait outside a SIOA group meeting and ask them if Muslims should be allowed in the United States.
Then you will be really happy with the results.
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Wow. You just want to argue with anyone and everyone ..... it doesn't matter if they are on the same side you are regarding an issue or not ......  When damn near every poll shows that most people are against something .... they usually are. IMHO, they should not be. That doesn't mean that automatically people come over to my way of thinking,
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Book burning is stupid. And it always has been stupid.
Pretty much agree there.
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In this particular case, this church is making Americans look like a bunch of idiots. This is the equivalent of Ahmadinejad spewing rhetoric about wiping Israel off the map, or proclaiming that The Holocaust was a myth, or at least greatly embellished by the Jews.
I disagree. This isn't making Americans look stupid - it's making a 50 member church look stupid. Just the same as when Ahmadinajad makes his stupid remarks - I think to myself "self?, that guy is stupid". And I in absolutely NO way relate what he says to the Iranian people.
See, just because the president says something - that doesn't mean the people said it, nor do they believe it. The Iranian people are no different than us - they live under the gov't. They don't have to agree with it, they just have to abide by it.
And by the way - these 50 people are not speaking for America. For you to insinuate, actually, for you to say they are, well, that's just stupid.
Does the KKK speak for america?
Does the New Black Panther party speak for America?
Do the muslim terrorists speak for the countries they came from?
People who live in remote areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan, who don't have access to education or "fair and balanced" news sources would be shown tapes of Americans burning Korans---and since that would be their only point of reference, they would think that that is what all Americans were like.
I get that you, as an American, pride yourself on being able to make sound judgements when faced with a news video, or sound byte.
However, people mired in the middle of nowhere halfway across the globe have very little reference material when it comes to what America is really about----so anything that they are shown becomes their most prominent perception, and if that is us burning Korans---then they will embrace jihadist principles.
And some radical cleric telling them that Americans are evil and hate Islam can be a lot more convincing when he has video footage of a group of Americans burning Korans.
Of course, you and I, and most educated people that live in the industrial world can determine that just b/c we see a video of 50 nutbags burning books---that isn't necessarily the norm within the country....
Its the people who are isolated and don't have any "real" point of reference that I am referring too. These are the people who are most susceptible to propaganda that would be drilled into their heads.
And its just not worth it to burn some books......
It doesn't accomplish anything other than giving the Jihadists another recruiting tool. And, in some instances, being a singular point of reference---some may conclude that this is what all Americans must be like---or that this behavior is representative of all Americans.
But alas......dude canceled his stupid bonfire.
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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I'll assume that you would avoid the "killing spree" for additional reasons other than just that you would not find it enjoyable.
I characterized my statements as an emotional response. It would appear many folks do not get a bit of hyperbole. I note that very few quoting my response also quoted the very real threat that prompted it. Any of those anonymous callers that already killed over 3,00 people? Any have access to nerve gas? A support system, cheering crowds? If that anonymous caller had actually killed your children, and their supporters were cheering and dancing in the street right outside your front door, tell me you'd invite them in for coffee and doughnuts.
We have people stating they never heard of the school blueprints these people possessed. It was reported on several major news networks, more than once, several years ago. Same as the existence of nerve gas shells in Iraq was reported, many times. Yet there were no WMD's.
First I would like you to research how people die from nerve gas, there are variations but most are not pretty. Then walk thru your local elementary school, watching the children crowd the halls, and imagine them all suffering and dying in that fashion. Just ONE of those nerve gas shells, that Saddam did NOT have, would accomplish this.
Now tell me that of all the people cooking their food and washing their clothes, not ONE SINGLE ONE knew of their plans, could have informed someone, could have stopped this disaster.
These people do not operate in a vacuum. They have a vast support system. We have tried to play nice. We have tried to play by the rules. They have the will and the plan to murder many hundreds of children. They quite possibly have the nerve gas. Play time is over.
IMO, if the members of that support system, the cook, the dishwasher, the guy doing laundry, KNEW that their ass was on the line, that some SOB like me would hunt them down, the odds go up that one of them will drop a dime and make a phone call, and stop it before it happens.
I am just disgusted with those who make excuses for these people. They want to kill Americans for burning a book. I want to kill them for planning to murder my children, and hundreds of others. Those who actually do it, and those who will be dancing in the streets in their tens of thousands, celebrating the event.
You are shocked and outraged at my response? Where is the shock and outrage at what these people have ALREADY DONE?
I believe that one of the reasons most of us are alive today to have this discussion is that the Soviets believed we were both capable, and willing, to kill MILLIONS if they attacked. If we had failed to convince them of that, most major US cities would be smoking, glowing holes in the ground. The reason that did not happen is that we gave them good reason to FEAR the consequences of their actions.
No, that's not Nice. It's not pretty. It could be called cruel, unethical, stupid, terrible, Hitleresque, whatever. It just worked. There are times when the stakes get high enough that "style points" must be sacrificed for something that works. If we had tried something else, we would most likely all be dead.
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I say we throw Charlie and Nelsen in a room for a winner take all match I'd be afraid Charlie .
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Holy cow tyler - that was one of the best posts from you I've ever read! 
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We have people stating they never heard of the school blueprints these people possessed. It was reported on several major news networks, more than once, several years ago. Same as the existence of nerve gas shells in Iraq was reported, many times. Yet there were no WMD's.
So to bolster your argument you pull out one that was proved false. Not real clear on the logic there.
But then you lost me at "I'd kill them all".
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Funny in numerous other threads you have said to people "If you changed Muslims to Jews you would sound just like Hitler"... funny thing is that if you changed Muslims to Nazis, you would sound just like Neville Chamberlain.... you share the same type of denial that he enjoyed..
"My signature line goes here."
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What was proven false? The nerve gas shells? Approximately a dozen were found, apparently left over from the Iran-Iraq war. Mortar shells, 60-80 mm as I recall. Reported several places, including liberal media who dismissed them for being old. Does there being old mean they did not exist? Is "just a little" nerve gas unimportant? If you have already purchased or manufactured one kilo, you can purchase or manufacture many more.
You do not need blueprints of a school to determine points of entry and exit, or to decide where to place a bomb most effectively. These are simple. One good reason to have blueprints would be to determine the best access point to the ventilation system for dispersal of an airborne agent.
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Holy cow tyler - that was one of the best posts from you I've ever read!
Agreed..
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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So a four year old news bit about school blueprints being found means that Islamics far and wide are planning to kill your kids?
Get off it.
Be more concerned about other kids at school packing heat and a replay of the Columbine incident. That's far more alarming and its actually happening.
What your doing is fear and hate mongering. God knows no one on this board condones terrorism attacks but I don't think anyone with half a brain in their skull believes that all Islamics are evil and the only answer is genocide.
Want to be concerned? Fine. Be concerned. Advocate for better security at schools. Whatever. But taking some crap bit of old news and making it justification for a crackpot advocation at genocide is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen on this board.
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Want to be concerned? Fine. Be concerned. Advocate for better security at schools. Whatever. But taking some crap bit of old news and making it justification for a crackpot advocation at genocide is one of the dumbest things I have ever seen on this board.
X2
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Wow.
You just want to argue with anyone and everyone ..... it doesn't matter if they are on the same side you are regarding an issue or not ......
When damn near every poll shows that most people are against something .... they usually are.
IMHO, they should not be. That doesn't mean that automatically people come over to my way of thinking,
No, I don't want to argue with everyone. I am not feeling well and am a bit tempermental because of that. If you are on the same side as me, I am sorry if I offended you. I was trying to say that polls do not show anything. No matter how random they are. The more people that take part in a poll, the more accurate the poll is. However, this Community Center issue is a local New York City issue. Your opinion on it, Boehner's opinion on it, the President's opinion on it, this "Pastor's" opinion on it are meaningless.
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illegal immigrants are bad because they are criminals.
As for the hate you preach about, take a good look in the mirror. All the hate you say people have towards muslims, you have the same hate towards christians. You preach religious tolerance, yet you have none towards christians.
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#gmstrong
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illegal immigrants are bad because they are criminals.
As for the hate you preach about, take a good look in the mirror. All the hate you say people have towards muslims, you have the same hate towards christians. You preach religious tolerance, yet you have none towards christians.
Oh, I am very tolerant of Christians. I am just sick and tired of their holier than thou attitude. They love to demonize and point out the flaws in Islam. But, the second anyone, ANYONE does the same to them, they cry out that they are being persecuted.
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Charlie calling someone else holier than thou..... Pot, meet kettle.
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Charlie calling someone else holier than thou..... Pot, meet kettle.
I never once claimed that I was "better" than anyone else.
I don't consider myself better than anyone else. So, "holier than thou" no. Never.
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illegal immigrants are bad because they are criminals.
As for the hate you preach about, take a good look in the mirror. All the hate you say people have towards muslims, you have the same hate towards christians. You preach religious tolerance, yet you have none towards christians.
Oh, I am very tolerant of Christians. I am just sick and tired of their holier than thou attitude. They love to demonize and point out the flaws in Islam. But, the second anyone, ANYONE does the same to them, they cry out that they are being persecuted.
Tolerant? Yeah right. You are constantly spewing hatred towards christians on this forum.
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