|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Quote:
Quote:
In both cases, we convinced the enemy that we would kill more of them then they could withstand, with the result that they either ceased, or declined to initiate, hostile action. Not much debate on the Japanese action among those with knowledge of the situation. They were training women and boys to fight with pointed sticks, and they would have.
We turned the Cold War into a spending war we knew they couldn't win, knowing that neither side was likely to use any force.
I don't see how it fits your argument in the slightest.
It's easy to see how it fits..... Look at the argument without any sense of reason, practicality or realism. Then it makes perfect sense.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
The one thing that makes this unlike anything we've ever done before and the reason you cannot compare it to any previous conflict is because the people we are fighting have no "home".. they are everywhere and anywhere and nowhere... They have no political structure, there is no unified body that could even sign a treaty if we could find them and whoop on them.. we could find and eradicate bin laden, we could wipe out a dozen of his top guys, we could make Tora Bora look like Kansas.. doesn't matter, there is nobody to surrender, nobody for the UN to sanction or watch, nobody for the world to chastise... they would spring up again, like weeds through the cracks in the sidewalk.....
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Never seen any remotely verifiable assertion that the US gave Saddam chemical weapons, and would regard that as extremely unlikely. Available evidence points mainly to Soviet sources with some possible French involvement.
The Cold War as a spending war was by no means a certain victory, it depended on how long they could keep a lid on their people. Both in 61 and during Communism's collapse, the threat of severe losses (pain) prevented them from launching a first strike. As it did for us, although we believed our system would eventually triumph, making conquest unnecessary. Plus we haven't forcibly annexed any territory for quite some time, unlike the Soviets.
Good place to remember the interview I saw with one of Roosevelts aides for the Yalta, or was it Potsdam, conference. The one where he totally caved to Stalin in return for a treaty promising free elections for eastern Europe. Not an exact quote but "Without that treaty, we wouldn't have been able to strongly condemn the Russians for not allowing free elections." I don't think that we even used really harsh language. Stopped that right in its tracks, by golly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Never seen any remotely verifiable assertion that the US gave Saddam chemical weapons, and would regard that as extremely unlikely. Available evidence points mainly to Soviet sources with some possible French involvement.
Does a U.S. Senate committee count as remotely verifiable?
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/medsearch/FocusAreas/riegle_report/report/report_toc.htm
'US Chemical and Biological Warfare-Related Dual-Use Exports to Iraq'
Also, where did you hear that? Did you make it up?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
Quote:
Just another religious group that doesn't get the message, and puts a black mark on religion in general. 
I think if a citizen endangers the lives of our troops at war should be prosecuted.
This goes above and beyond freedom of speech.
Then this ignorant nut should be prosecuted to the full extend of the [Federal] Law!
How far this will set back Military operations one can only guess.
My apologies in advance if this has already been covered, as there is far to many post to read them all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Approved, dual-use exports, possible precursors, not actual chemical weapons. Something like the nuclear precursors found, which were not actual WMD, although they had little legitimate use. The chemicals and hardware in question could be, and are, used for pesticides. You are making it up and then showing it to me.
Haven't read it all in detail but it is clear that what is says is not what you claim. I am still surprised that we gave him that much. Have already seen much of this in my earlier research. CIA and Dod.
Soviet connection from eyewitness accounts of a known Iraqi chemical attack, Halabjah IIRC, Red Cross or other international agency made the report, visual evidence and dispersal method consistent with known Soviet weapons. Specifically, an oily yellow liquid added to water followed by a second agent with rapid and severe effects.
French connection much more tenous, reports of shell and/or missile fragments of possible French origin, delivery system similar to those used for BioChem weapons.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
After Rumsfeld & Co. visited with Saddam in Iraq, we just coincidentally started shipping materials necessary to make chemical weapons? That's what you're saying?
And Hussein had already been using chemical weapons when those things were shipped ... so you're arguing that the U.S. was sending dual-use chemicals that could be turned into chemical weapons to a man who had been using chemical weapons, but it wasn't to make chemical weapons?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Could find no detailed info on chemical-related weapons, no specifics, no items, no timeline. Biological precursor shipments began in the early 1980's, according to your link. Approved precursors, again, no actual weapons. Detailed specifics available on the biologicals. If you are seeing something I am not, please provide specific quotations.
No, what I said was that we did not ship him any actual chemical weapons, which is what you claimed, and further claimed that the linked document proved this. Neither assertion is correct. If I ship you peanuts, strawberries, and wheat, you could do several different things with them including doing some processing and creating a PBJ. However, to claim that I shipped you a sandwich would not be correct.
If the timeline for chemicals was the same as that for biologicals, this occurred long before Rummy and was going on during Clinton's tenure, as well.
Report also confirms the basics of the Halabjah incident, Amnesty International reported it, not as detailed as the report I originally read at the time. I should point out that AI did not specifically link the attack to Iraq. I believe the earliest verified usage date was after the earliest stated shipment dates given for approved Bio precursors. Again, I could find absolutely zero info on chemicals other than the very bare items listed as part of the findings, which, again, specifically stated no actual chemical weapons shipped.
The upshot being Saddam had both Bio and Chem weapons in the early 90's. Chem weapons were definitely present after the second Gulf War. WMD were, in fact, present, found, and verified. Their source is not important to my original concept but to state that they were US - supplied is not in any way verified by the linked document. Most of it is concerned with possible effects of very low-level exposures to nerve agents, and most of That I had already seen.
Let me be clear, I am not at all happy that we sent him what we did. However, the report does not appear to say what you said it did.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
I disagree. Reason, practicality, and realism are EXACTLY what I am using to evaluate the two.
As for removing the US from the situation, sure, but just to check my geography, the Twin Towers were not located in the Middle East, right?
To do so would imply allowing the Jews to be completely wiped out, as multiple national and religious leaders have sworn to do, repeatedly. People who control armies and have the actual capability to do it, and have tried before on multiple occasions to do just that. I know you would frown on me doing it, genocide that is, but is it OK for Muslims to perform this action? If not, what would be your preferred method for stopping them once they begin? Harsh language?
Also, no, it is not unimaginable. It really isn't. Unpleasant, yes.
I am reminded of something I was once told by someone to whom I had clearly pointed out some harsh, brutal realities. "Wow, mean people suck, the world would be a better place if you were all killed." My response was "Interesting. Just exactly who are you going to get to take out the very last one of us?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Oh, and Phil, how does somebody whom we KNOW has chemical weapons qualify as an easy opponent? That would appear to be a self-contradictory statement.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
You, although apparently fairly intelligent, are one twisted dude.
I consider myself lucky that I'm not your neighbor.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Top 0.1%, according to objective tests.
Yeah, nobody needs guys like me. Until one of these SOB's take or threaten somebody you care about, and we happen to have one who might know how to stop it. But they won't answer polite questions.
That is when you will want someone like me to get you the answers you need, but won't be able to do yourself.
It's a matter of weighing alternatives, understanding the problem, and deciding on a course of action. Eliminate the emotional baggage and do what needs to be done.
As for my neighborhood, we used to have some local punks causing some problems. Talked nicely to them, nothing. Talked to their parents, nothing. Caught them stealing my son's bike and called the police, nothing. So I grabbed a couple of them one day and told them the very next time I'd cut their freaking heads off with my machete, while holding the weapon in my hand. I added that at least three bodies would fit in my trunk and in about an hour they would be gator food. You might be surprised, but I can do a pretty good Psycho Killer impression. Problem solved, not a peep for almost two years now. They're molesting some other neighborhood, one that doesn't have a guy like me in it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Quote:
I'll assume that you would avoid the "killing spree" for additional reasons other than just that you would not find it enjoyable.
And you'd be correct. It's also a little thing called a 'moral compass.'
Quote:
I characterized my statements as an emotional response. It would appear many folks do not get a bit of hyperbole.
And I was one of them. Sorry about that- I usually read deeply for content. Missed the admission entirely. As long as it's hypespeak, I won't worry about you quite so much. 
Quote:
I am just [as] disgusted with those who make excuses for these people. They want to kill Americans for burning a book. I want to kill them for planning to murder my children, and hundreds of others. Those who actually do it, and those who will be dancing in the streets in their tens of thousands, celebrating the event.
And you haven't heard me make even one excuse for "these people." Nelson, I believe in justice every bit as much as you. In this case, I'm not averse to the Old Testament version of justice: an eye for an eye/ tooth for a tooth. There's only one hitch in this approach... who exactly are "these people?"
It's the same problem our forces encountered in Viet Nam: the enemy hid among regular people, wore no uniforms, and played 'hit & run' tactics. A "scorched earth" policy might be the most efficient method of eradicating the enemy, but our country exists in accordance to a moral compass much the same as mine. The idea of killing 2 BILLION people to eliminate the 50-100K or so who are the true enemy is simply unacceptable to even our most hawkish military brass- and I agree with that.
In other words: If Common Man takes it upon himself to dispense 'divine justice' on another, he'd damn sure better use the same discretion as the God he worships when doing so. So far, there's only one Human Being I know of who ever possessed that degree of discretion- and to my knowlege, he never killed a single soul duing his 33 years on Earth.
Quote:
You are shocked and outraged at my response? Where is the shock and outrage at what these people have ALREADY DONE?
It's in the comments I made to friends, letters I wrote to the op/editor of my local newspaper, and in my prayers to God for help in dealing with my rage and frustration. I wasn't posting at DT in 2001, or there would be an electronic record of my outrage. I was quite vocal about it at the time. Why not now? because of one simple fact: to hold that much rage for NINE FREAKKIN' YEARS would have destroyed me from the inside out. It would have turned me into someone other than who I am now.... someone most of my loved ones wouldn't want to know. I won't let that happen... not by anyone's hand. It's not that I've forgotten or even forgiven.... it's that I won't give the jihadists the victory of owning my heart and mind.
Dawg... I think this one's gonna end in a standoff between the two of us... not because you're wrong or I'm right, or even vice-versa. It's because we're coming at this from two totally different philosophical angles, and neither of us has convinced the other to change his p.o.v. and that's OK with me.
Like I said before, I don't find you to be wrong in your assertions or conclusions as to what should be done... I just see the situation differently. There was a short time after 9/11/2001 when you and I saw things from the same vantage point. That window of confluence lasted about 2-4 weeks... then, I had to find another way of coping besides wanting EVERY MUSLIM I"D EVER SEEN to die. I had to do it for myself... and for the sake of my immortal soul.
I have acquaintences who practice the Muslim faith. I have High-School classmates who converted to Islam after we graduated and parted ways. At this point, I have no close friends who practice Islam, but it's not because I'm closed to them- the opportunity hasn't arisen.
I live in the I-75 corridor which has the highest concentration of Muslims per capita of ANY LOCATION OUTSIDE OF THE MIDDLE EAST... and I'm loath to even entertain the thought of seeing some of these fine American citizens being eradicaed in an American version of Krystallnacht, just because some demented assholes from overseas decided to pervert the basic tenets of Islam for their own purposes. If anything close to that happens, the assholes win- pure and simple. America begins to devour its own.
Game, set, match.
Sorry to resist you so fervently, Nelson... but you haven't convinced me that your way is right... at least yet. I remember ( and actually know) too many Muslim-practicing Americans in my own community who cried their hearts out right along with the rest of us 9 years ago, for your sentiments to ring true to me.
Good people come from all faiths. And they come to America to be part of the greatest social experiment in Modern Human History. Our plurality is central to what has made us so great and unique... and I won't automatically dismiss any single grioup of them to satisfy a fear that was intended by the worst of America's outsiders. If I do....
...the outsiders have won.
jmho,
Clemdawg
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Quote:
You might be surprised, but I can do a pretty good Psycho Killer impression.
Not me.
I've read your posts in this thread, Dawg.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
Just another religious group that doesn't get the message, and puts a black mark on religion in general.
I think if a citizen endangers the lives of our troops at war should be prosecuted.
This goes above and beyond freedom of speech.
Then this ignorant nut should be prosecuted to the full extend of the [Federal] Law!
How far this will set back Military operations one can only guess.
My apologies in advance if this has already been covered, as there is far to many post to read them all.
Keep in mind, the muslim world threatened unbelievable attacks after they found out a koran had been flushed down the toilet at whatever the prison we have down there is called. Ends up, the violence was not to be found. Also ends up, no koran was flushed.
Also, after Abu Graib - the photos and what not - muslims swore to kill any and all americans they came across.
Never happened though.
I have a feeling the radical muslims that make these threats over estimate their muslim "brothers"..........i.e. - true muslims don't run around threatening to kill, and then follow through on it simply because of someone "dissing" the koran, or allah.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Oh, and Phil, how does somebody whom we KNOW has chemical weapons qualify as an easy opponent? That would appear to be a self-contradictory statement.
Because a) we knew exactly what they had (practically nothing)
and b) we knew they wouldn't use them against us
Saddam was harmless ... he knew it and we knew it. His only objective in chest puffing was to save face in front of Iran ... hell, even Kuwait -- whom Iraq had invaded before -- wasn't all that afraid of them.
At this juncture, I'm going to have to let you go as far as debate. Not only do you promote sick and twisted ideas like genocide, but you also seem to be in the hopeless 'there *were* WMD's' crowd ... I enjoy debate around here with all walks ... but talking to some folks is more detrimental than enlightening, and IMO you are one of those folks. JMHO.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
I really do feel bad about this, but I can't resist .. .this is more over the top than anything CoachB ever served up. Same post. Quote:
Top 0.1%, according to objective tests.
Quote:
So I grabbed a couple of them one day and told them the very next time I'd cut their freaking heads off with my machete, while holding the weapon in my hand. I added that at least three bodies would fit in my trunk and in about an hour they would be gator food.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Phil, did you actually read any of the article you linked to, or just the headline. You are the one who declared it a credible and accurate article. Congressional report, actually.
Direct and absolute contradiction of what you claimed.
Large quantities, the article cites daily production in TONS of nerve gas agents, plans and preparations for actual use, some still there for Gulf War II. When trying to make the US responsible, he had lots. With our responsibility diminished, he had little. I see your true goal.
There is no question WMD were there. The only question is quantity. You actually agreed with this as long as you could claim they were US-supplied. The "proof" you offered is downright laughable. Did you not expect me to read it? Either you really thought it said what you claimed, indicating a total lack of reading comprehension, or you knew it didn't and were trying to just BS your way through.
You are either a liar or an idiot. No real need to clarify, you have reached the point where if you told me "the sky is blue", I would stick my head out the window and look up to determine the actual truth.
Facts and data are facts and data, whether you like them or not. To willfully ignore them to suit your world view is just delusional.
Not surprised that you totally ignore that my method was effective in achieving the desired goal, when all other standard courses of action had failed completely. The police made it clear that I should handle this problem on my own. Done, problem solved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
Not surprised that you totally ignore that my method was effective in achieving the desired goal, when all other standard courses of action had failed completely. The police made it clear that I should handle this problem on my own. Done, problem solved.
I wasn't ignoring it, nor was I really commenting on your actions.
Rather, I was poking fun at your .01% assertion, coupled with those statements.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
You are off by an order of magnitude, or a factor of 10. 0.1%, Not .01%. To put it another way, 99.9th percentile. You learn to live with it.
There's that reading comprehension issue again.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
I know you meant 99.9th percentile, and that's why I was poking fun. You lack basic vocabulary for that standing, let alone intellect. Got to let you go, bro. Have fun out there. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,960
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,960 |
its amazing how these "supposed" cut and dry issues always end up in quarreling. the dude is a douchebag, it will tick (you really cant say the other word for tick off??) off the rest of the world, and yes it endangers troops. done an done  Quote:
(you really cant say the other word for tick off??
going back to this, really?? they have worse language on ABC family 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2010/09/koran_burning_off_for_good_flo.htmlKoran burning off for good, Florida pastor says Published: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 9:36 AM Updated: Saturday, September 11, 2010, 9:43 AM New York -- A Florida pastor says his church will never burn a Koran, even if a mosque is built near ground zero. Pastor Terry Jones had threatened to burn the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks over plans to build an Islamic center near where terrorists brought down the World Trade Center nine years ago. He flew to New York and appeared on NBC's "Today" show. He says that his Gainesville, Fla., church's goal was "to expose that there is an element of Islam that is very dangerous and very radical."He tells NBC that "we have definitely accomplished that mission." He says no meeting is planned with the imam leading the center but he hopes one will take place. So ..... he wanted to show that there was "an element" of Islam that is very dangerous and very radical? Really? Wow ..... I never would have guessed that from the 9/11 attacks.  He wanted to infuriate millions of good Muslims all over the world, who want nothing more than to raise their family in peace, to show that there are some who are not so good? Sorry, I'm not buying it. The guy is an ass who wanted attention ..... and he got it. I have to wonder how he would have felt if a Mosque (or anyone else, for that matter) had planned to burn Bibles in protest of Christianity's many sins?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
That is when you will want someone like me to get you the answers you need, but won't be able to do yourself.
This one made me laugh almost as much as the .1% comment.
Gotta love a guy with a sense of humor. Because I'm so sure none of this is remotely close to true I must conclude that you are a comedic genius.
What else ya got? Maybe you're playing at the "Chuckle Hut" next week?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
How exactly would a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation be either true or false? Or are you saying you would be willing to do what was necessary in order to obtain the information?
I no longer have the paperwork on the ACT or Mensa tests so you'll just have to take my word for it. Most anything else I have stated as fact, please point out particulars for which you would like verification. You will have to be able to read a bit better than Phil, however.
Several of my neighbors are indeed glad that there is a guy like me in their neighborhood. They were tired of having their homes and cars vandalized, and their children terrorized. My son and his two friends were afraid to ride their bikes around the block, and this is not at all a "rough" neighborhood. They are not afraid anymore, and their parents are happy about this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Quote:
How exactly would a hypothetical response to a hypothetical situation be either true or false? Or are you saying you would be willing to do what was necessary in order to obtain the information?
Nooooo......what I am saying is I think you're making most of this stuff up out of thin air. Mostly to get a rise out of people.
Either that or you have a serious personality problem that no one on here is going to be able to help you with.
Either way you don't look nearly as good as you seem to think you do.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,089 |
Quote:
I disagree. Reason, practicality, and realism are EXACTLY what I am using to evaluate the two.
As for removing the US from the situation, sure, but just to check my geography, the Twin Towers were not located in the Middle East, right?
To do so would imply allowing the Jews to be completely wiped out, as multiple national and religious leaders have sworn to do, repeatedly. People who control armies and have the actual capability to do it, and have tried before on multiple occasions to do just that. I know you would frown on me doing it, genocide that is, but is it OK for Muslims to perform this action? If not, what would be your preferred method for stopping them once they begin? Harsh language?
Also, no, it is not unimaginable. It really isn't. Unpleasant, yes.
I am reminded of something I was once told by someone to whom I had clearly pointed out some harsh, brutal realities. "Wow, mean people suck, the world would be a better place if you were all killed." My response was "Interesting. Just exactly who are you going to get to take out the very last one of us?"
Dear Mr. Mighty Point One,
Check your history books on every time Islamic countries have taken a shot at Israel. It DOESN'T go well for them. The Israelis can look after themselves just fine.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Sure they can. Right up until they run out of spare parts and ammo, which come mostly from who, ya think? Also, the arab armies are more modernized than they were in the 70's, the technological advantage the Israelis once had is not as great, while their numerical disadvantage has gotten worse.
The Arabs have always known that we would back the Israelis with force, so that a long, grinding, war of attrition would not be allowed to happen. With US support gone, they would be able to gradually wear them down. Or, once Iran develops deliverable nukes, they're toast.
Now if we sent them a couple boatloads of parts and ammo before we left, but then that wouldn't exactly be removing ourselves from the situation, would it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
Now, when I stated Phil was lying, I pointed out specific, clear-cut examples. If you just want to whine, that is your right.
Opinions are like A-holes, everybody has one and some are better than others. The trick is choosing the best ones.
Throughout this thread I have asked numerous, pointed questions and awaited a specific response. Very few, if any, have been forthcoming.
I'll try a second time, Otto. Pick a stated fact with which you disagree and would like verification. I consider sticking you head into the sand to be a serious personality disorder.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Heh, heh.....OK, let's try this again.
In every instance where you state something about yourself (ie: machete waving, 99.9%, etc.) I think you're making it up.
Kinda the coachb of political threads, so to speak.
As far as your opinions go......they're so wacky I think you may be blowing those out of proportion just to get a rise out of people.
Plain enough, or do I have to type in BIG letters?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,367 |
I was going to ask him if he had a brother who coached college football after the Mensa comments. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
I'm still trying to figure out what the connection between being "extremely smart" and being Mr Bad Ass is? Most intelligent people don't wave machete's around and threaten to cut peoples heads off, stuff them in a trunk and feed them to gators. How did anyone not call the cops and report this threat? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
If you read the whole story, the cops had already been there once, they knew what kind of punks these where, told me clearly that if they did not see it happen they could not do very much, and also told me clearly that I should handle this problem myself. I tried talking nicely to them, I tried talking to the parents, I personally witnessed them riding my son's bicycle. I got Bupkus.
To give you an idea of the police action, one of my neighbor's older kids, in an action I neither endorsed nor condoned, actually brushed one of them off the road in his pickup truck. Potentially a fairly serious crime, the cops investigated, I didn't see it, he denied it, absolutely nothing happened.
When my son and his friends all said they were afraid to ride around the block because of these kids, that is when a decision was made to do something about the problem. These kids, 5 of them altogether, were around 14-15, the younger kids were 9 to 10, and there were only 3 of them, at most.
I should also mention that the very first interaction came about because they had apparently threatened the younger children with some sort of large nail or screw.
The machete was largely a prop, made the whole display much more convincing.
Wal-Mart sporting goods section, $6 or 7.95. I might have chosen my mace but the X took it in the divorce and it is a bit more difficult to control. That's the medieval spiked ball and chain, not the spray.
Your belief, or lack thereof, in the specifics of the incident is not necessary in order to evaluate whether or not the strategy was either warranted or effective.
I will ask yet again for someone to suggest an alternate procedure which has even a remote chance of being workable, and repeat that the problem was indeed solved.
I would also like to state that I make no claim whatsoever to be any kind of Urban Rambo. Intelligence and experience merely allow you to evaluate various situations and potential responses, along with some cost-benefit and/or risk analysis. As far as being unusually bright, I didn't bring it up, I merely clarified. It's like when my brother tells people that I read the entire encyclopedia when I was 8 years old, I state that is incorrect, that I was 9 and I stopped at Q.
The situation is somewhat similar to some young man coming over to pick up your daughter and you are standing in the driveway, casually sharpening your axe, testing it for sharpness while reminding the young man what curfew time is. This may, or may not, include brandishing it menacingly, which I did with the machete.
When I was a kid, there was a pretty young girl on my block whose father was on the Highway Patrol Swat team, or whatever their equivalent was. He WAS a Bad-Ass. Pretty sure that girl was a virgin till she was 18 or 19. Everybody I knew was afraid of Mr. Cheney (sp?), and his daughter Julie's boyfriends were exceedingly polite, as well as very, very careful. I can still remember my friend and I decided to surprise him with a spotlight from across the street as he got out of his patrol car late one night. He went from casually locking his car door to crouched, sidearm out and pointed directly at us, in an AMAZINGLY short time.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
I hate to stick my nose in this - but for some odd reason I think I'm fairly good at it - at least, I do it all the time.
I am of the opinion that, and I have tried my best to live this way - I don't make threats I am not prepared to carry out. Be that with my kids, with "enemies", with work situations - I also don't promise something I am not prepared to do/can't do, etc.
Why do I not make threats I won't keep? Simply because IF the threat is made, and the action I want is not done - and I don't follow through - it sends a message to the other person/s that I talk, but don't act.
Example: we have friends that constantly threaten their kids when they misbehave with "if you do that again, you're going to bed." The kids know that mom and dad aren't sending them to bed at 6 in the evening - so they continue their actions - and lo and behold, they don't go to bed like they were threatened with.
If I threaten to kill someone if an action is not stopped, and the action doesn't stop - and I don't kill them, they win. In their heads, I speak - I don't act. (there are very, very, very few situations where I would feel justified in killing someone - and if I have the chance to first threaten them - I also had the chance to do something else in place of the threat).
Just my opinion. Any threat from me needs to be a threat I will, without a doubt, follow through on. And not just threats - any reward for an action or any punishment for an action needs to be something I will follow through on.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
I would agree completely, you can ask my son if I follow through on disciplinary action. He appreciates it, and for the most part will agree that he earned it. Haven't needed to spank him since he was 6 or 7.
I would modify a bit, though, that the threat has to be believable. I'm not sure they were CERTAIN that I WOULD do it, but I am pretty sure that they were NOT certain that I WOULDN'T. IMO, it was the machete that put it over the top.
I could have been honest and told them that there was absolutely nothing that I could do, but I just don't think that would work very well. When the obvious has been eliminated, the impossible is all that's left.
Just so you know, I had no plans to actually carry this out. It is likely one or more would escape, the screaming would alert any bystanders, the mess in the trunk would be difficult to clean, and Alligator Alley is a long drive. Then again, it is scenic, I could try to be quick and efficient, and I have plenty of garbage bags.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
I did read your whole story, and I have no problem with having to deal with it yourself, but threatening someone with a machete is a punishable offense. Whether anything was done or not, NORMAL people don't threaten people with a machete "for show".
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Quote:
It is likely one or more would escape, the screaming would alert any bystanders, the mess in the trunk would be difficult to clean, and Alligator Alley is a long drive.
big sheets of visquene...
...like the Mafia does it.
The pros know how it's done.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,964 |
To be absolutely honest with you I was going to put that but I was not sure how to spell Viz-Queen? Also somewhat uncertain if everyone would know what that was. I do so despise being misunderstood.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Nelson, my friend.... ....I think I understand you all too well.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,099 |
Hey, here's an idea.... someone should make an attempt to get this thread back on track. OK.... I'll bite. Let's see... it had something to do with a crackpot cult leader planning to set flame to a book- or something like that.... oh, yeah, "Pastor" Terry Jones, and his cult of "Flaming Florida Fifties"... Here's a p.o.v. from a completely different angle... one that hasn't been touched on by any of us Dawgs. Different from what we've been discussing, and I found it to be a bit thought-provoking... so I thought I'd share: _____________________________________________________ Essayist: Before Burning Quran, Know What's In It
by Anisa Mehdi
An outcry from Muslim communities around the world greeted Florida Pastor Terry Jones' announcement that he would commemorate the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks by burning copies of the Quran. The outrage was matched only by those who staunchly oppose the building of an Islamic cultural center near ground zero in New York City.
President Obama, Defense Secretary Robert Gates and Gen. David Petraeus all urged the pastor to call off the event, citing potential threats to Americans overseas. In a late afternoon press conference, Jones said he had canceled the protest in exchange for a deal to move the proposed Islamic center away from ground zero. But Feisal Abdul Rauf, the imam planning the center, quickly said no such deal had been made.
Anisa Mehdi is a Fulbright Scholar and filmmaker who directed the National Geographic documentary Inside Mecca.
Here’s a quick test of your knowledge of scripture. Where does the following passage come from?
“Behold! The angels said: “O Mary! God hath chosen thee and purified thee – chosen thee above the women of all nations.”
Let’s try another, with more modern language:
“Behold, the angels said, “O Mary, God announces good news to you by a Word from God named the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, honored in this world and the hereafter.”
The first from the King James Version of the Bible and the second from the Revised Standard?
No on both accounts.
These are passages from the Quran. The first in English translation by Yusuf Ali and the second by Thomas Cleary. As an English-speaking Muslim, I have several versions of the Quran in English.
The Quran, the holy book of Islam, gets quoted for exhortations to fight for the faith. “Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of Evil.” But it’s also filled with reverent passages about Jesus Christ. There is a whole chapter named for his mother, Mary, who is mentioned more often in the Quran than she is in the Bible itself.
And this is the book the Rev. Terry Jones threatened to burn at his Dove World Outreach Center in Gainsville, Fla., on Saturday?
Did he know what he would be burning?
The Rev. Jones may reject much of what he believes is so about Islam. He may reject the notion that another prophet came to humankind after Jesus. He may resent Islam’s fierce adherence to One God and not a Trinity. He may — and rightly so — despise the acts of terror committed in the name of Islam. But he should know that the book he hopes to burn as a statement of protest and rage holds his Savior in the highest esteem.
“And in the footsteps of the prophets we send Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel. Therein was Guidance and Light.”
The Quran tells about miracles performed by Jesus — some unfamiliar to the Bible, like talking when he was a baby and breathing life into a clay bird, but also recognizable miracles, like healing lepers and restoring the dead to life.
The chapter of Mary also tells stories of Abraham, Moses and Noah. Surely these are figures of prominence in the Christianity of the Dove World Outreach Center.
But the crisis around burning the Quran was not one-sided. It may have been instigated in Florida but hostile reactions were predicted in Afghanistan by U.S. Gen. David Petraeus and who knows where else. After all, there is a history of violent reaction by Muslim people to perceived offenses against their faith. Remember the Danish cartoons?
So there is another group of people who need to know better just what’s in the book at the center of this story.
Muslims themselves.
We are now celebrating the end of the month of Ramadan. Muslims showed self-discipline by fasting from dawn until dusk for 30 days in a row. This is a time to put that self-control into action.
In Chapter Five, the Table, we read, “O Believers! Stand up as witnesses for God by righteousness and let not ill will at any induce you not to act uprightly. Act uprightly … And fear ye God. God is apprised of what ye do.”
“Killing is bad,” the book goes on to say,” but lawlessness is even worse than carnage.”
Just like the Bible, the Quran has its share of passages about punishment and vengeance. No doubt I’ll be accused of only choosing the soft, sweet lines out of context for the purpose of making a point.
But it’s a point that needs to be made as much as the point that has been made that burning the Quran is NOT a good idea. That the challenge for Muslims in this trying situation is to behave and perform as cited in the very book they said they were trying to save. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=129755176_________________________________ As has been said before, Islamic jihadists are a breed apart from the typical practitioner of Islam. My hometown has a substantial population of "Muslim-Americans," and in my dealings with them, I've found them to be every bit as temperate, mindful and respectful of others as any "Christian-American" I have ever known. They look me in the eye, speak in a forthright manner, and respect me as a person. I spend time with them at least once per week, and know them as good Americans just like Rick and Shannon, my next-door neighbors. I think it's important to make a differentiation between the "Muslims" that grab the headlines for their terrorist acts throughout the world, and the rank-and-file citizens of hundreds of countries who happen to practice Islam as their faith of choice. The vast, overwhelming majority of them live their faith in a day-to-day fashion just as most Christians we know live theirs. They share the same core belief structure as Christians, and almost all are simply looking to live a good life, make a positive impact with their time here, and raise a good family of contributing citizens. In short: America's fight against 'Islam' (if it can even really be called that) is a fight against the Terry Nichols' and Timothy McVeighs of the Islamic faith. It bothers me to my core to see good-hearted Americans willing to follow someone who is crazy enough to even threaten to burn a holy book OF ANY FAITH, just to garner some publicity. Even if there are only 50, that's 50 too many, in my book. A nutcase like this should be standing alone on a street corner, ignored by the passers-by who actually possess a life." Beware the false prophet," we're instructed. As I've said more times than I can count: "The Truth lives in every religion. The "falsehoods of faith" (and the atrocities they bring) have always come from Man's corruption of The Truth."Burning a book/flag/religious icon is a hollow act, symbolic only to the stupid among us. It changes nothing, and serves no constructive purpose- therefore, it's a waste of a good person's time. I'm amazed that so much media time and so much carbon dioxide has been spent on this story. The essay I found (and linked to this post) points out how pure words can be... and how easily they can be twisted to fit a Human Being's agenda. It's a fight that can easily be won by the propagandists, if the truly faithful aren't dedicated and vigilant. We call it a "slippery slope" for a reason. The idealist in me still holds out hope that the good people of every faith are believing it, living it, and raising their children in it enough to snuff out the sick ones who promote a perversion in the name of their respective faiths. This Koran-burning story is a homegrown version of what prompts Middle-Eastern jihadists to blow themselves up in a useless, hollow bit against 'The Western Infidel.' All these gestures are in vain, because the rest of us just see it as some stupid, crazy shi-ite. The same kind of stupid crazy shi-ite that prompts Americans to kill other Americans... on behalf of Crips and Bludz/ Whites against Blacks/ Straights against Gays/Christians against [insert faith here]/ Us against Them.Damn. You'd think that after 5,000 years of recorded history, Mankind would have evolved at least a little further than this. Guess I was born about 2,000 years too early. Maybe I should start looking into reincarnation. I'd love to come back some day- and see what we're like when once we've finally gotten a clue.... .02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Top US commander: Burning Quran
endangers troops
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif){kind=logo}
