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Right or wrong has absolutely zero place in the discussion. Its either constitutional or unconstitutional.
And that is what is known as opinion...
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Right or wrong has absolutely zero place in the discussion. Its either constitutional or unconstitutional.
And that is what is known as opinion...
Have some time to explain now.
The Muslims have the right to build their Cultural Center. The dissenters have a right to say it should be built elsewhere. The dissenters even have a right to take it to court and fight it if they so choose. That is the Constitution at work...this isn't about "Rights".
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The dissenters even have a right to take it to court and fight it if they so choose.
Exactly what grounds would they have to fight it since the people in question already have all the permits they need?
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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the strip bars being there mean nothing to me.. If I'm a preacher, I'm going to put my church right across the street from strip bar and try to change sinners into saints LOL
Really,, are you telling me that they don't have another agenda,, that they aren't trying to stir the pot?
Serious,, is that what your really telling me you think?
So what if they have an agenda...
This country was founded on the religious freedom to worship however you want to, it's not just for christians. Are we now going to start to pick and choose when and where certain faiths can practice that freedom? 
You clearly didn't read my earlier posts and I was responding to Ytown..
I understand the Freedom of Religion.. I understand that they have a right to build a mosque there...
If you go up the thread you will see where I VERY clearly stated I would defend thier right to build that mosque anywhere they wanted.. and let me add, I'd defend thier right to worship as they please.
I also said and I'm sticking to it, I question thier wisdom for wanting it so close to the site of a terrorist attack by Extremist Muslims.
keep in mine, I'm not blaming muslims in general. I recognize they aren't responsible for actions of extremists anymore than I am responsible for what italians did during wwii
Again, I just question thier wisdom
I believe they have an agenda to tick americans off.. and I'm sticking with that belief
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The dissenters even have a right to take it to court and fight it if they so choose.
Exactly what grounds would they have to fight it since the people in question already have all the permits they need?
Again...this isn't new
Neighborhood to take Church to court
People get blinded by the OMG OMG THEY HATE TEH MUSLIMS. I've seen this three times this year in Lexington alone and none of it involved Muslims or Islam. It happens.
The Vineyard Community church in the story above relented, basically saying that they were not trying to cause a problem for people in a neighborhood...they wanted to bring people together and they could do it just as well at another location.
Southland Christian Church continued on with their plans, it hasn't gone to court yet.
See this stuff goes both ways people...you want it to be about hating Muslims, but because it's Muslims you seem to care. I don't want a Mosque in my neighborhood and it has nothing to with Muslims and how I see them. (I don't want the Church going up down the street either) That's just an assumption posters make to try and win quick "points". Moderate Muslims have their own problems to worry about and I think 'Americans hating them' isn't the highest on the list.
Last edited by LexDawg; 09/11/10 10:11 PM.
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Good post, Daman, I agree completely. Did I just say that? 
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So why are you disagreeing with me when you just said the exact same thing I did but in different words? 
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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So why are you disagreeing with me when you just said the exact same thing I did but in different words?
You may want to elaborate, what I am seeing is you disagreed with me, I disagreed with you...and then you post I said the same thing you did 
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I said that whether its right to do what they are doing doesn't really matter, they are constitutionally protected. If people don't like it we have a system designed to allow them to change it (via the courts) and they don't just get to disregard the constitution because they feel like it. Isn't that pretty much what you said?
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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You clearly didn't read my earlier posts and I was responding to Ytown..
I understand the Freedom of Religion.. I understand that they have a right to build a mosque there...
If you go up the thread you will see where I VERY clearly stated I would defend thier right to build that mosque anywhere they wanted.. and let me add, I'd defend thier right to worship as they please.
I also said and I'm sticking to it, I question thier wisdom for wanting it so close to the site of a terrorist attack by Extremist Muslims.
keep in mine, I'm not blaming muslims in general. I recognize they aren't responsible for actions of extremists anymore than I am responsible for what italians did during wwii
Again, I just question thier wisdom
I believe they have an agenda to tick americans off.. and I'm sticking with that belief
Tick off Americans or Christians? There are plenty of Muslim Americans that probably aren't so ticked off that a mosque is being built.
#GMSTRONG
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Good post, Daman, I agree completely.
Did I just say that?
Yes you did and if I didn't want my new puppies pic in my sig so badly, I'd make this my new SIG 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Again, I just question thier wisdom
I believe they have an agenda to tick americans off.. and I'm sticking with that belief
I would garner to bet that with real estate expensive and rare in NYC that availability, size to meet proposed needs and price had more to do with it than location.
I don't think they intentionally chose that site to tick off people, otherwise they would have advertised it all over the place the second they bought it. It went pretty undetected until some reporter found it in the permit listings and decided it would make a controversial story. Boy was he right.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Well then, I'm happy the puppy is there....and he is darn cute. 
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I don't think they intentionally chose that site to tick off people,...
Not to tick people off...but to make a statement.
I believe that site was chosen as it was/is as close to ground zero as they could get...if they could get closer...they would.
I think this whole development is being done with a clear purpose of showing an Islamic "victory".
History would show that such an intention is quite probable.
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Or they got the building really cheap because no one else wanted it and it's in a less than desirable neighborhood. Naw....the conspiracy theory is much more fun...... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Or they got the building really cheap because no one else wanted it and it's in a less than desirable neighborhood.
Naw....the conspiracy theory is much more fun......
If no one else wanted it, why did THEY want it?
If it is in less-than-a-desireable neighborhood, why did THEY want it?
Naw...sticking your head in the sand is much more fun...
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Or they got the building really cheap because no one else wanted it and it's in a less than desirable neighborhood.
Naw....the conspiracy theory is much more fun......
I would think their refusal to accepts Trumps offer to buy it from them would strongly suggest they have other motives in play than a cheap price.
#GMSTRONG
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Or they got the building really cheap because no one else wanted it and it's in a less than desirable neighborhood.
Naw....the conspiracy theory is much more fun......
I would think their refusal to accepts Trumps offer to buy it from them would strongly suggest they have other motives in play than a cheap price.
Can't be...has to be a conspiracy theory. [/sarcasm]
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I said that whether its right to do what they are doing doesn't really matter, they are constitutionally protected. If people don't like it we have a system designed to allow them to change it (via the courts) and they don't just get to disregard the constitution because they feel like it. Isn't that pretty much what you said?
That makes it clearer for me, thank you. The right or wrong part makes it sound like it doesn't matter if they are right or wrong, however I understand now that you are saying both sides are exercising their constitutional rights...and the courts can solve this problem for them.
I tend to think the Imam should solve it out of court, showing that it is 'my way or no way' isn't going to send the message he says he wants to send.
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Or maybe they already have all of the zoning done, the permits in place, and are ready to go at their current location?
I'm not 100% certain, but I do believe that I read that somewhere.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Pretty much, the only thing they were waiting on is the adjacent property sale, they have a 99 year lease on it, but they offered to buy it, and it was being appraised to determine the value for the sale last I read. NRTU.. Also, think I figured out why most Catholic churches have schools attached to them. For the endless stream of young boys. Cause everything has a motive and agenda right? 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Or maybe they already have all of the zoning done, the permits in place, and are ready to go at their current location?
I'm not 100% certain, but I do believe that I read that somewhere.
That's certainly possible, as long as it takes to get permits in NYC, it's plausible too.
What I question in all this with all the folks up in arms about a place of worship being built nearby ground zero (read hallowed), perfectly legal and not even within eyeshot, no one seems to be getting their panties in a wad over the fact it's been 9 years and they haven't even started to build a memorial yet on said hallowed ground.
If you're so freakin' concerned they'll be some berka's wandering the neighborhood, wheres the concern for the memorial? Seriously stop wasting your time on this non-sense as it's only serving to further their cause and help raise money over-seas, and protest something that really matters, like a place to honor the fallen.
#GMSTRONG
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Well then, I'm happy the puppy is there....and he is darn cute.
Oh yeah, He had me at Woof...LOL
I have lost 16 lbs over the 4 weeks we've had him., he's working me 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Actually he does kinda have that "You WILL do what I tell you to do" look.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Right or wrong has absolutely zero place in the discussion. Its either constitutional or unconstitutional. The law of the land is black and white and if people don't like it they don't just get to not follow it. We have lawful ways of getting it changed if that is what the people decide they want.
Right and Wrong has EVERYTHING to do with this argument...because NOONE has disputed their right to build a mosque or community center or whatever....
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Actually he does kinda have that "You WILL do what I tell you to do" look.
Oh Geez Ytown,, I got one of him sticking his tongue out at me.. as if to say,, I'm the boss and if you don't like it,, Tough Noggies....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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There was a mosque on the 17th floor of the Second World Trade Center tower. How do you feel about that? Since building a mosque on ground zero or anywhere near it is a "slap in the face". How do you feel about the fact that a mosque was already there to begin with as part of the World Trade Center complex. LINK There Already Was A Ground-Zero Mosque -- On The 17th Floor Of The World Trade Center It turns out there was a Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor of the south tower of the World Trade Center, where Americans and other traveling Muslims prayed every day. On September 11th, 2001, when a handful of terrorists flew planes into the towers, some of the folks who used the room evacuated in time. Others probably didn't. In other words, there already was a "ground zero mosque"--used by Muslim Americans who were murdered just like everyone else. So isn't it time we stopped framing this discussion as "us versus them"? Samuel Freedman has more on the prayer room at the NYT
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There was a mosque on the 17th floor of the Second World Trade Center tower. How do you feel about that? Since building a mosque on ground zero or anywhere near it is a "slap in the face". How do you feel about the fact that a mosque was already there to begin with as part of the World Trade Center complex.
LINK
There Already Was A Ground-Zero Mosque -- On The 17th Floor Of The World Trade Center
It turns out there was a Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor of the south tower of the World Trade Center, where Americans and other traveling Muslims prayed every day.
On September 11th, 2001, when a handful of terrorists flew planes into the towers, some of the folks who used the room evacuated in time. Others probably didn't.
In other words, there already was a "ground zero mosque"--used by Muslim Americans who were murdered just like everyone else.
So isn't it time we stopped framing this discussion as "us versus them"?
Samuel Freedman has more on the prayer room at the NYT
I guess I'd have to ask if you really thought it was relevant? Was someone saying there wasn't?
This has just as much right to be read on the topic!
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What was in the world trade centers prior to 9-11 is of no significance. We aren't discussing that.
Charlie, I believe your problem is you think the people against a new mosque are saying "we are against islam". And, contrary to your stubborn beliefs and innuendo, and honestly, flat out making things up - people are NOT against muslims (people on this board that is), and people are NOT against islam. You really don't get that, do you?
What people are questioning is the wisdom, and the motive, behind building a mosque right there - with what has happened. 10 years ago, this mosque would not have gotten questioned once. Not one bit. But you really don't get that, do you?
Go ahead and call me a racist - you have already, but what that has to do with religion is beyond me - maybe your history studies tell you different - but, call me a racist, call me a radical christian (after all, according to you that's all there is in this country), call me what you want.
But before you do, think about what I have said. That is, if you can put your hatred of white christian males aside for a minute and actually look at what I'm saying.
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What was in the world trade centers prior to 9-11 is of no significance. We aren't discussing that.
Charlie, I believe your problem is you think the people against a new mosque are saying "we are against islam". And, contrary to your stubborn beliefs and innuendo, and honestly, flat out making things up - people are NOT against muslims (people on this board that is), and people are NOT against islam. You really don't get that, do you?
What people are questioning is the wisdom, and the motive, behind building a mosque right there - with what has happened. 10 years ago, this mosque would not have gotten questioned once. Not one bit. But you really don't get that, do you?
Go ahead and call me a racist - you have already, but what that has to do with religion is beyond me - maybe your history studies tell you different - but, call me a racist, call me a radical christian (after all, according to you that's all there is in this country), call me what you want.
But before you do, think about what I have said. That is, if you can put your hatred of white christian males aside for a minute and actually look at what I'm saying.
The World Trade Center site is "hallowed" ground and building a mosque there is "spitting in the faces of the victims". Well, my simple question is, how do you feel about banning mosques knowing full well that a mosque already existed not a block from ground zero but RIGHT ON ground zero. So much for that ground being so "hallowed" that only Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and non-Muslims can go there or build anything near there.
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What was in the world trade centers prior to 9-11 is of no significance. We aren't discussing that.
Charlie, I believe your problem is you think the people against a new mosque are saying "we are against islam". And, contrary to your stubborn beliefs and innuendo, and honestly, flat out making things up - people are NOT against muslims (people on this board that is), and people are NOT against islam. You really don't get that, do you?
What people are questioning is the wisdom, and the motive, behind building a mosque right there - with what has happened. 10 years ago, this mosque would not have gotten questioned once. Not one bit. But you really don't get that, do you?
Go ahead and call me a racist - you have already, but what that has to do with religion is beyond me - maybe your history studies tell you different - but, call me a racist, call me a radical christian (after all, according to you that's all there is in this country), call me what you want.
But before you do, think about what I have said. That is, if you can put your hatred of white christian males aside for a minute and actually look at what I'm saying.
The World Trade Center site is "hallowed" ground and building a mosque there is "spitting in the faces of the victims". Well, my simple question is, how do you feel about banning mosques knowing full well that a mosque already existed not a block from ground zero but RIGHT ON ground zero. So much for that ground being so "hallowed" that only Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and non-Muslims can go there or build anything near there.
Before 9-11 ground zero did not exist. Before 9-11 the ground was not considered hallowed. As arch said, pre 9-11, no one would care.
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Dude, you really don't get it. Probably my bad for trying to discuss it with you - the difference between what WAS there prior to it being blown to bits - you know, the mosque type thing no one had a problem with - and what they want there, now.
My bad for trying to discuss with you.
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The World Trade Center site is "hallowed" ground and building a mosque there is "spitting in the faces of the victims". Well, my simple question is, how do you feel about banning mosques knowing full well that a mosque already existed not a block from ground zero but RIGHT ON ground zero. So much for that ground being so "hallowed" that only Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and non-Muslims can go there or build anything near there.
I don't understand your argument.. it became "hallowed" on that moment on 9/11.. that's when it changed. Pearl Harbor was not "hallowed" and there were no monuments to sunken ships.. until December 7, 1941 when the Japanese sank ships.... There were no museums dedicated to concentration camps in Germany until after Hitler killed 6 million Jews... It doesn't matter what was on the site of Aushwitz BEFORE the concentration camp.. but it matters what is there to commemorate what happened there..
I don't really see where it matters what was there before..
And just so you know, I'm not really all that opposed to building the stupid thing.. I just find a lot of the arguments for and against to be kind of silly.
yebat' Putin
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What was in the world trade centers prior to 9-11 is of no significance. We aren't discussing that.
Charlie, I believe your problem is you think the people against a new mosque are saying "we are against islam". And, contrary to your stubborn beliefs and innuendo, and honestly, flat out making things up - people are NOT against muslims (people on this board that is), and people are NOT against islam. You really don't get that, do you?
What people are questioning is the wisdom, and the motive, behind building a mosque right there - with what has happened. 10 years ago, this mosque would not have gotten questioned once. Not one bit. But you really don't get that, do you?
Go ahead and call me a racist - you have already, but what that has to do with religion is beyond me - maybe your history studies tell you different - but, call me a racist, call me a radical christian (after all, according to you that's all there is in this country), call me what you want.
But before you do, think about what I have said. That is, if you can put your hatred of white christian males aside for a minute and actually look at what I'm saying.
The World Trade Center site is "hallowed" ground and building a mosque there is "spitting in the faces of the victims". Well, my simple question is, how do you feel about banning mosques knowing full well that a mosque already existed not a block from ground zero but RIGHT ON ground zero. So much for that ground being so "hallowed" that only Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and non-Muslims can go there or build anything near there.
Just wanted to quote this whole thing again. Making you look silly is so easy.
When did I say anything about spitting in the faces of the victims? Amongst your other tired, unproven statements, this may rank at the top. At least, you contributing it to me.
Dude, here is a C, and L, a U, and an E. Can you at least put those together?
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I honestly cannot believe some of the stuff I am reading on this board. I sometimes think that it's more messenger than message, as Charlie has had many an offensive message in the past ..... but this isn't something that should even be debated. When we start excluding people because of their religious beliefs, and saying "You can't build here or there because of your religion", frankly that offends every last ounce of my being. To do so in a neighborhood full of some of the seediest elements of society and proclaiming that area "sacred ground" offends me to the core. This country was established, more than any other principle, on the principle that all men are created equal, and may worship their creator in their own way. (as long as it doesn't violate laws against other persons or property) For so many supposed Constitutionalists to stand up for this use of propaganda as Constitutional in nature offends me in ways that I cannot express and remain in compliance with the rules of this board. The only way I care about this issue is this: A religious organization did things the right way. They got their permits and licenses. They bought their property. They were then told that "we don't want your kind here" by people from the area .... and many more who will never again set foot in NY City. They did things the right way. They followed the law. They were not the ones who committed the attacks. The should be allowed to build at the location they purchased. People who want them to move "just a little further away" are kidding themselves. It's not a matter of "moving a little further away" ...... it is a matter of telling someone, based on their religion, that "they" cannot be there. I honestly cannot see how more people are left unaffected and do not feel an almost uncontrollable urge to vomit at the very implication that someone should be told to leave because of their race, creed, or religion.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Look, I haven't ever said they don't have the right to build there. Never, not once. And your insinuation that I have said that has not gone unnoticed by me.
What I have said is - with all the hullabaloo about it - why wouldn't they consider building elsewhere.
Please - charlie won't do it, but you seem sensible - please, re read the whole thread. Tell me what you see most of us saying about it. (with an open mind)
I don't care about strip joints there. I don't care about this, that or the other thing there. I really don't.
I don't care if they build the mosque there. I DO have to question there motive in doing so - but I don't question their right to do so.
For you to insinuate - and yes, you have - that I don't think they have a right to build there - well, that's just as stupid as most of what charlie has posted.
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I have kind of said the same thing.. they do have the right to build it and I'm not all that opposed to building it but if I was going to build something that was supposed to serve as a bridge to unite communities, I'd probably be a little more sensitive to all of the people that didn't want me there... they have made zero concessions.. they haven't even appeared willing to entertain the notion of doing anything different even when 75% of the people they are trying to bridge to, don't want them there... It would give me a feeling that they were a bit more sincere about using it to bridge relations if they .. oh I don't know, did anything other than dig in their heels...
yebat' Putin
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Legend
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Why should they consider building elsewhere?
Because "We don't like you"?
Because "If you practice a certain religion, you are not welcome HERE"?
Because strip joints on "sacred and hallowed ground" are somehow more palitable than a Mosque?
Because "We don't want your kind here"?
There is little more offensive that one human being can say to another.
The bought the property.
The got the licenses and zoning they needed to build there.
Why would they go back to square one to satisfy the prejudicial feelings of certain people?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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OP
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Quote:
I have kind of said the same thing.. they do have the right to build it and I'm not all that opposed to building it but if I was going to build something that was supposed to serve as a bridge to unite communities, I'd probably be a little more sensitive to all of the people that didn't want me there... they have made zero concessions.. they haven't even appeared willing to entertain the notion of doing anything different even when 75% of the people they are trying to bridge to, don't want them there... It would give me a feeling that they were a bit more sincere about using it to bridge relations if they .. oh I don't know, did anything other than dig in their heels...
Right.
Except - for you and I, and the millions that think the same way - somehow we are "anti muslim", or "anti islam".
Yet, in the same breath, when we say the dude in Florida that wanted to burn korans was stupid, but he had a right to do it, we were still labeled "anti muslim" or "anti islam".
So, stupid koran wannabe burner thoughts make us anti muslim and anti Islam - but saying a group wanting to build a mosque at the toe of the trade center fiasco makes us anti mulsim and anti Islam as well.
Golly, it's like we can't win for losing. Call one person stupid for burning korans - fine, as long as you don't say he has a right to do it. Call a mosque near ground zero stupid - and bam, you're anti muslim, anti Islam, you're racist, and a radical Christian.
Sure - it all makes sense to me. 
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
I have kind of said the same thing.. they do have the right to build it and I'm not all that opposed to building it but if I was going to build something that was supposed to serve as a bridge to unite communities, I'd probably be a little more sensitive to all of the people that didn't want me there... they have made zero concessions.. they haven't even appeared willing to entertain the notion of doing anything different even when 75% of the people they are trying to bridge to, don't want them there... It would give me a feeling that they were a bit more sincere about using it to bridge relations if they .. oh I don't know, did anything other than dig in their heels...
They are within their legal rights, why should they make concessions and to who, the 75% that don't want them there? Since when does mob rule in this country?
#GMSTRONG
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