This isn't directly related to the mosque but..... We are 20-25 years behind Europe in our rush to recreate their failed economy and their failed social system... and many will scoff at this, and that's ok, because I'm sure 25 years ago people in the UK and France would have scoffed at stuch non-sense and probably said, "That could never happen here." Keep scoffing, keep laughing........
I wasn't going to respond to this thread anymore ...... but I just have to add this ....
Quote: It's not about mob rule.. if they were building a Burger King and nobody wanted it because it was in a progressively liberal, mostly vegetarian neighborhood then I would say, "Build it at your own peril, it won't make any money." but they aren't building a Burger King, they are building a community center.. the people building it have stated their purpose (at least publicly) to build a bridge between faiths and groups of people.. well if a large percentage of people don't want it where you want to put it then moving it is NOT SUCCUMBING TO MOB RULE.. it is helping achieve the objective of the facility which is to build a bridge.. Building it in a location where so many people don't want it just because you legally can is not building a bridge, it's shoving it down other peoples throats, which they have every right to do.
No ... this is like saying that a Black person cannot build a Burger King in a certain area because we don't want "his kind" here.
It's the same thing.
Christian churches would not cause anything remotely approaching this on their worst day. neither would a bank of 100 Synogogues. However ..... this is about "those people", and they just have to be guilty ...... they have to be .... and we don't want "them" here.
The really funny thing is that this very man worked very closely with the Bush administration on many matters retaling to Muslims, both in the US and abroad.
Oh well .... we used him ... now get him the hell out of New York!
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: Oh well .... we used him ... now get him the hell out of New York!
I do not care about him being in New York...I care about MY tax dollars paying for him to go "fundraising" overseas so he can build a mosque near Ground Zero and have his minions preach at the mosque that America was responsible for the 9/11 attacks.
That's quite a bit different than using him and telling him to leave.
Have you read and listened to some of the stuff this guy has actually preached over the years? He's pretty radical actually .... in a pro-US manner.
He believes in equality for women.
He believes that sitting down with Jews and Christians in a peaceful manner to have civilized dialogue is a reasonable way to handle inter-faith relations .... and has done so for years and years. He has backed up his talk with action for decades.
He has often couched his remarks within political veils of concern, much as our own politicians have done. His remarks are often carried to other parts of the world, and he can't be "completely radical" to them or he loses every bit of credibility. He walks a very fine line between 2 worlds ... trying not to fall off on either side, even while working towards a more moderate and less violent version of Islam. I remember him speaking about Swiss Mosques years ago when the Swiss outlawed the shape of Mosques. He joked that they should make a Swiss Mosque, that looks like Swiss Cheese. He said that Islam should adapt to the countries it lives within.
I'm not saying that some of his remarks haven't been a concern ..... but I could say that about damn near anyone. Bottom line is that this guy has walked the walk for decades .... and people are calling him a radical and villian anyway.
Remember that Christianity and Judaism each have rather violent passages within their holy books. The difference is that these 2 religions have had time to mature, and largely move past the violence called for under many circumstances. We need to help Islam do the same.
That really is the only way we win a "War" of ideas. We won't win it with "perfect" heroes .... but rather with flawed individuals who can walk the tightrope between 2 cultures, and work to bring them together.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: He said that Islam should adapt to the countries it lives within.
I thought as long as what they were doing was legal within the United States, then to hell with adapting? Why does he need to adapt as long as they are within the constitution?
75% give or take of the American people are asking him to "adapt," to respect a piece of property. A piece of property that was destroyed by people using his religion as their basis for destroying it and killing thousands of Americans in the process. I have seen nothing in him that tells me he is willing to adapt.. nothing.
Yeah ...... "Get the hell out" is always the way I was taught for Christians to treat other people.
They did things by the law. They got permits, and proper zoning, and bought the property. They did things according to the way the country, state, and city said to. Someone decided that they wanted to make this an election issue ..... and they did. Now it has ballooned into absolute crap. (Only because I can't use a different word)
Christianity has committed many vile acts throughout the years. So has Judaism.
I seem to recall something we should all remember. It went something like this:
"You hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of your own eye; and then shall you see clearly to cast out the mote out of your brother's eye."
Blaming a Muslim for the crimes of his religion while not blaming all Christians and Jews for the crimes committed in the name of their religions is absolute hypocricy. It is also counter-productive to bringing peace to this world. Only by continuing a dialouge, and by working hard, day after day, and by accepting people as people and not labels can we bring about peace. Of course, how can we have peace in the world if people want to wage war over a simple Mosque, built on a street now become "hallowed" between the strip clubs and massage parlors?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Yeah ...... "Get the hell out" is always the way I was taught for Christians to treat other people.
Whatever ytown.. it's clear you have not read or attempted to understand a single thing I have said since you keep repeating things back to me that are 10 times worse than anything I have actually said.. "Get the hell out".. "First Amendment".. blahblahfreakin'blah... none of it has a damn thing to do with what I've said and you keep repeating it back to me.. if you posted a few more articles in this thread it would be like debating with mac.
All I read in this thread is how the Mosque is being insensitive by not moving from the property they bought and got all of the zoning and permits for.
They are the bad guys.
Quote: If you want to build a bridge, build a bridge, if you want to shove it down peoples throats then do that but don't do it and tell me you are building a bridge.
Yep .... that's something new ... I guess.
Quote: I agree. However, and perhaps this is where we will disagree, it was played very badly by the Imam as well who, from day 1, has dug his heels in and made no efforts to compromise...
Again ... what was the compromise? It was "get out". There was no compromise. Ultimatums from those using this issue for political purposes is not "compromise".
Please tell me .... what compromise would have worked here? (remember that compromise means that BOTH sides give and lose something)
Quote: but I digress... since the sentiment of the "bridge builder" was that to move it will incite violence then I will offer this.. to build it will more than likely elicit a response, graffitti, vandalism, protests, maybe worse.. I'm not condoning anything illegal but if he continues with his plan, then he can expect it...
So ..... this is "compromise"? This is Christian values? Please tell me what I am missing here.
Quote: It's not about mob rule.. if they were building a Burger King and nobody wanted it because it was in a progressively liberal, mostly vegetarian neighborhood then I would say, "Build it at your own peril, it won't make any money." but they aren't building a Burger King, they are building a community center.. the people building it have stated their purpose (at least publicly) to build a bridge between faiths and groups of people.. well if a large percentage of people don't want it where you want to put it then moving it is NOT SUCCUMBING TO MOB RULE.. it is helping achieve the objective of the facility which is to build a bridge.. Building it in a location where so many people don't want it just because you legally can is not building a bridge, it's shoving it down other peoples throats, which they have every right to do.
So ..... is this Mosque then doomed forever, no matter what they do over the next decade? Are Christians so petty that they will forever refuse to accept someone trying to build bridges between faiths .. and, in fact, someone who has made a career out of such an attempt?
There have been many things built where people don;t want them. Hell, my Aunt and Uncle had a freeway built through their living room. They got over it. This issue will be forgotten a year from now, except by the news media who will do some "A year later" story ..... and people will go "what were people so mad about?"
People do follow a mob mentality quite often. They are scared ..... because people are pushing their buttons. They are outraged ... because people are pushig their buttons. There have been distorsions and outright lies. I bet most of the people against this wouldn't set foot in this neighborhood of "hallowed ground" at night. People are leading with their emotions on this issue, They hear that "those people are trying to build a Mosque on the bodies of our honored dead right at the very heart of ground zero" ..... and they become infuriated.
I guarantee you one thing. Once the elections are over, this issue will vanish. *Poof* Gone like it never happened .... diappeared into the post-election ether ..... because that's really what this has been about.
Oh .. and I generally respect what you have to say ..... but comparing me to mac was completely out of line.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
what's funny is this all started from back in the Crusades time period (really longer than that if you go back to the Romans and such, but the Crusades are a much easier depiction to use).
Quote: All I read in this thread is how the Mosque is being insensitive by not moving from the property they bought and got all of the zoning and permits for.
They are the bad guys.
I don't care what you got from this thread from anybody but me.. I'm the only one I can control. And I'm not saying they are insensitive because they won't move.. I'm saying they are lousy at PR because they are not even involved in the discussions.. they planned this project and then have seemingly disappeared to allow Americans to fight it out amongst themselves when some involvement from them, some explanations, a little interaction, might go a long way to easing some peoples tensions..
Quote: Again ... what was the compromise? It was "get out". There was no compromise. Ultimatums from those using this issue for political purposes is not "compromise".
Please tell me .... what compromise would have worked here? (remember that compromise means that BOTH sides give and lose something)
I have no idea ytown.. not a clue. All I know is that requests were made to move it, the answer was.. No. Offers were made to buy the property at a profit to the owners, the answer was... No. Requests have been made that Rauf clear up some issues regarding who is funding the faciltiy, the answer was... No. Requests were made that Rauf clarify his stance on some issues like not wanting to admit that Hamas is a terrorist organization, the answer was... No. Requests were made that Rauf clarify his stance that a couple of Muslims who worked for him shortly after 9/11, one of them said the Jews were probably behind the attacks and would he comment, the answer was... No.
While he does not HAVE TO compromise because he has the permits and if he has the funding then start building brother.... but there is no way to know if any kind of compromise is possible or if any kind of agreement can be reached because Imam Rauf is not engaged in the process or the debate at all.
Quote:
Quote: but I digress... since the sentiment of the "bridge builder" was that to move it will incite violence then I will offer this.. to build it will more than likely elicit a response, graffitti, vandalism, protests, maybe worse.. I'm not condoning anything illegal but if he continues with his plan, then he can expect it...
So ..... this is "compromise"? This is Christian values? Please tell me what I am missing here.
Nothing. The Imam did say (through his wife I think since almost all comments come from his wife) that if they moved the mosque now that we could expect violence from Muslims.. and I'm saying that if they don't move it that there will be a reaction from the opposition.. it's not a compromise or a threat or a promise or a Christian opinion, just an observation of what I think could happen.
Quote: Are Christians so petty that they will forever refuse to accept someone trying to build bridges between faiths .. and, in fact, someone who has made a career out of such an attempt?
I don't know ytown, there are over a hundred million Christians, would you like me to speak on their behalf?
Quote: This issue will be forgotten a year from now, except by the news media who will do some "A year later" story ..... and people will go "what were people so mad about?"
Funny.. I said the EXACT same thing a couple weeks ago... Odd with me being a petty Christian and all.
Quote: People do follow a mob mentality quite often. They are scared ..... because people are pushing their buttons. They are outraged ... because people are pushig their buttons. There have been distorsions and outright lies. I bet most of the people against this wouldn't set foot in this neighborhood of "hallowed ground" at night. People are leading with their emotions on this issue, They hear that "those people are trying to build a Mosque on the bodies of our honored dead right at the very heart of ground zero" ..... and they become infuriated.
Then perhaps somebody should try to allay their fears, bring them some answers to the questions they have, etc.. right now we have the mob mentality on one side and on the other side we have.... nothing. I don't particularly like the forces that took this issue and sort of forced it into the mainstream, I don't, and I doubt anybody expected it to be this kind of a wedge issue.. but regardless, it is there now.... and the disappearnce of the Imam is fueling the problem. His refusal to open up a bit and address issues, his refusal to make his own case is leaving a vacuum and do you know what happens to vacuums? They fill up and right now the vacuum is being filled by the only side that is engaged in the discussion.
Rauf can build this thing, don't build it, build it somewhere else.. I don't really care but if he is to succeed as a "bridge builder" on a larger scale then he really needs better PR advice...
Oh and by the way, I sincerely apologize for the mac comment, it was uncalled for ...
Quote: Only in the mind of the most obscene moron are those the only two people who have objections to this mosque... I know you think the 75% of the population that have any opposition to this mosque are all blindly following these folks and I know that nothing I say is going to change your mind because you don't actually listen to what other people so I'll just stop...
You should look up and see who the leaders of the opposition are.
Oh, and just one more thing DC. The leaders of the opposition to the Cultural Center have a bus ad campaign out. Guess who designed it and is responsible for it? I'll give you the initials - PG.
Quote: Only in the mind of the most obscene moron are those the only two people who have objections to this mosque... I know you think the 75% of the population that have any opposition to this mosque are all blindly following these folks and I know that nothing I say is going to change your mind because you don't actually listen to what other people so I'll just stop...
You should look up and see who the leaders of the opposition are.
You will truly be in shock.
Which is why I said.. "I don't particularly like the forces that took this issue and sort of forced it into the mainstream, I don't, and I doubt anybody expected it to be this kind of a wedge issue.. but regardless, it is there now.... "
You keep bringing Geller up.. I'm fully aware that she was one of the leading forces that made this an issue. I don't like her or her organization but the whole issue is a lot bigger than her now.. you can either continue to throw Geller into every post or you can deal with the issue as it stands today, which is a lot of people with a lot of opinions for a lot of different reasons that are a lot more diverse than just hating Muslims...
Quote: But, but, but, Pamela Geller is speaking for every American like you who are against it!
YOU agree with her = You are a fanatical racist, gay hating, cult Christian.
Exactly.
But the funny thing is, I never heard of her until charlie mentioned her in this thread.
I still haven't heard anything about her. Never been to a website about her, have never heard her on radio, or seen her on tv. And I have no clue as to what she has ever said.
Rights? Sorry, not Muslim. Although I am sure the moderates outcry at this abuse of Islam...okay, well I would've hoped there had been one. Oh well...
So, this islam which gets it's way due to freedom of religion - well, this religion is just fine threatening to kill anybody that "does it wrong".......but todays Christianity is evil.
Got it. To matter in this world, we need to threaten to kill, apparently.
Quote: So, this islam which gets it's way due to freedom of religion - well, this religion is just fine threatening to kill anybody that "does it wrong".......but todays Christianity is evil.
Got it. To matter in this world, we need to threaten to kill, apparently.
It's all relative.
If you took every fanatical Muslim that calls for killings and all of that other backwards nonsense, and you brought them over here and gave them a house in a nice neighborhood with a TV and furniture and a stove and you got them a little education and gave them a little checking account and told them 'You can go ahead and keep this so long as you keep this little restaurant I gave you afloat ... a very high percentage of them would forget the nonsense and fall in line.
If you took fanatical Christians in the United States and put them in a dirty sandbox where they received no education, were constantly surrounded by violence, had little to no money, and not a whole lot to distract you from these facts ... I imagine a high number of them would get caught up in the nonsense and join the mob.
We are better educated, our country is safer, we have plentiful distractions ... environment breeds these behaviors but fanaticism is fanaticism, indoctrination is indoctrination, propaganda is propaganda. Every religion and viewpoint has a fringe ... they just manifest themselves different based on socioeconomic conditions.
I've come across a frightening amount of people in this country on just about every side and viewpoint that IMO, if they were living in other conditions, would have a high likelihood of doing, condoning, cheering on, etc. a high number of revolting things. And, hell, sometimes it's happened. You don't have to go too far back into our history books to find some heinous stuff.
Quote: If you took every fanatical Muslim that calls for killings and all of that other backwards nonsense, and you brought them over here and gave them a house in a nice neighborhood with a TV and furniture and a stove and you got them a little education and gave them a little checking account and told them 'You can go ahead and keep this so long as you keep this little restaurant I gave you afloat ... a very high percentage of them would forget the nonsense and fall in line.
You be wrong. There are quite a few fanatics that are educated, live(d) here and had money. Most of the 911 terrorists came from relatively affluent backgrounds and spent time in the states. I'll give you that most of the fanatics in the middle east come from impoverished backgrounds, but much of the leadership did not. You make it sound like if you throw them some trinkets that you can undo a lifetime of brainwashing. Their faith is strong enough to withstand the temptations of "the great satan".
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Quote: If you took every fanatical Muslim that calls for killings and all of that other backwards nonsense, and you brought them over here and gave them a house in a nice neighborhood with a TV and furniture and a stove and you got them a little education and gave them a little checking account and told them 'You can go ahead and keep this so long as you keep this little restaurant I gave you afloat ... a very high percentage of them would forget the nonsense and fall in line.
You be wrong. There are quite a few fanatics that are educated, live(d) here and had money. Most of the 911 terrorists came from relatively affluent backgrounds and spent time in the states. I'll give you that most of the fanatics in the middle east come from impoverished backgrounds, but much of the leadership did not. You make it sound like if you throw them some trinkets that you can undo a lifetime of brainwashing. Their faith is strong enough to withstand the temptations of "the great satan".
I said a high number, not all.
And, yes, I do believe a lifetime of brainwashing can be wiped away with relative ease. It happens everyday.
And make no mistake -- the leadership of these groups aren't really all that invested in the faith -- they in it for the power and the money. Hell, you can see that in every faith that exists. I think most of these leaders care about Islam as much as Jim Bakker cared about Christianity.
