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That makes much more sense 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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However, it is still confusing, I don't believe anybody FULLY understands it and I still maintain that insurance companies may be taking on a small upcharge to cover what they don't know and can't predict...
They pretty much wrote the thing (or were present in counsel/holding Obama's hand every step of the way) ... the whole bill is practically a gift to them.
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but companies sending out letters with potentially misleading information to justify rate increases and avoid bad PR is not protected speech.
So you are saying that the government has no right to lie to promote its own healthcare bill which it has done routinely? You are saying that companies should have to prove they are telling the truth but the government should not?
When did I say it was OK for the government to lie? I said it's not OK for companies to lie. How does that imply that it's OK for the government to lie?
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They are a private company, they charge a fee for their service.. they should be able to charge whatever in the hell they want and if you don't like it then go somewhere else. Why do they have to justify their rates to the federal government? Will homebuilders soon have to justify their prices since everybody deserves a home? Should automakers have to justify the cost of a car since everybody deserves transportation? Why doesn't the federal government have to justify my tax rates to me? Why doesn't the federal government have to justify their wasteful spending to me? This govenment is (and has been for a long time) getting way out of control with its desire to control private industry and it needs to stop.. but more and more brain dead lemmings think its more important to promote "the common good" by letting the omnipotent and benevolent federal government have more and more control of things.. it's a sad and scary time in which we live.
They absolutely are a private company. They can charge whatever they want. They cannot blame someone else for their higher prices without showing proof that it is the other party's fault.
In order for consumers to dictate prices by their willingness to go elsewhere. they have to be able to make informed decisions. In many cases, the information just isn't there. If you want to know why the health insurance bill is so long, try reading the documents detailing your health plan that the bill is designed to regulate. There are so many stipulations, loopholes, and so much vague language that most people don't really know how good their insurance is until they use it. Plans are almost impossible to compare for this reason.
In addition to very little transparency, there are usually only a few plans to choose from, either b/c the state you live in is dominated by one company, or the company you work for only provides limited choices. IMO that is why there has to be oversight and forced transparency in this particular market.
This is not necessary for most products. TVs you can look at and read about in Consumer Reports. You can choose from literally hundreds of different types. Same goes for homes and autos.
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All we have right now is a bill that few have read and nobody understands totally
Including the people that wrote and passed it. 
I can't speak for politicians,, but our lawyer just sent us the bill for his services reviewing how it applies to us and guiding us with the insurance company (aetna)
he better understand it..... cause we will be paying him pretty close to 15k...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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That's not the point of the article or this thread. It's about the government granting themselves the power to shut down a business for speaking out against them.
Where are you getting this from? I've read your propoganda piece twice, as well as the full text of the letter, and nowhere did I see any mention of a business getting shut down for any reason.
I was thinking the same thing that I missed something. Maybe Glenn Beck told him.
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but companies sending out letters with potentially misleading information to justify rate increases and avoid bad PR is not protected speech.
So you are saying that the government has no right to lie to promote its own healthcare bill which it has done routinely? You are saying that companies should have to prove they are telling the truth but the government should not?
When did I say it was OK for the government to lie? I said it's not OK for companies to lie. How does that imply that it's OK for the government to lie?
Well the whole premise of this is that if the government feels the company is not telling the truth they can force that company to PROVE that they are... 100% of the burden of proof falls on the company... there is no such equal protection from the lying government.. so by default, you are saying that companies must be held to one standard while the government will be held to.. well to no standard.
I didn't mean you thought it was OK for one side to lie, but this law is allowing one side to lie without recourse and the other to have to prove everything it does.. which doesn't seem right to me.
yebat' Putin
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he better understand it..... cause we will be paying him pretty close to 15k...
So...your new and better health insurance is STILL cheaper...even after dropping 15k to your attorney - so someone on your side understands the ramifications of the new bill?
If the states succeed in getting the bill repealed, will you get back your 15k?
What does you doctor say about the ramifications of actual health CARE under this new bill? I have several doctor clients...actual healthCARE is not going to be pretty under this wonderful 'overhaul' (aka takeover).
More unintended consequences of more government control.
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How many people are insured on your company policy?
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October 31st, 2009
Doctor Roger Starner Jones is a seventh generation Mississippian and his extracurricular interests are golf, hunting, fishing and college football. He specializes in emergency medicine at The University of Mississippi medical Center.
This Letter to the Editor, written by Doctor Jones about health care in America, is from the August 29th edition of Jackson, Mississippi’s newspaper, the Clarion Ledger.
Dear Sirs:
During my last night’s shift in the ER, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient with a shiny new gold tooth, multiple elaborate tattoos, a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and a new cellular telephone equipped with her favorite R&B; tune for a ring tone.
Glancing over the chart, one could not help noticing her payer status: Medicaid.
She smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and, somehow, still has money to buy beer. And our President expects me to pay for this woman’s health care?
Our nation’s health care crisis is not a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. It is a crisis of culture – a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on vices while refusing to take care of one’s self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance.
A culture that thinks I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me.
LINK
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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So Dr. Jones is a racist? 
yebat' Putin
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Damn right, and being from Mississippi one could assume he is a KKK member as well. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I'm really curious - how many people does your company have on its insurance policy? I faintly remember you discussing health insurance a few years ago - I shouldn't rely on my memory, should I?
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How many employees does your company cover daman?
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How many employees does your company cover daman?
the census we turned in for them to review and base thier decision on was about 40 I think,,
the list is now closer to 65......
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Thank you. That's a heck of a lot for a temporary employment agency! You guys must be HUGE! I seem to remember you having insurance through your wife a few years back - and somehow that got cancelled - she was fired, laid off? Something like that. And you said you were buying your own insurance for a while - to the tune of something like $1200 a month or so. Why didn't you just sign on with your company back then?
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Thank you.
That's a heck of a lot for a temporary employment agency! You guys must be HUGE!
I seem to remember you having insurance through your wife a few years back - and somehow that got cancelled - she was fired, laid off? Something like that.
And you said you were buying your own insurance for a while - to the tune of something like $1200 a month or so. Why didn't you just sign on with your company back then?
Oh heavens no,, that many people on payroll isn't much at all,,, maybe 3 million in sales,, we've been higher..
The shop I worked for before,, we had maybe 200 out of the office I ran... different time and place and much bigger overhead,,
My circumstances are odd,, very hard to explain..
I'm part owner of one company and full owner of another. for the longest time, we didn't have insurance for employees, but about two years ago, we decided it was something we just had to do for people,, had to do it.
Putting me in the mix at that time with my medical history would have blown the curve.... so I went out on my own to get insurance. yeah,, at the end of that, we were over 1300 a month with a HUGE deductable.. sucked for us.
Currently we are on my wifes insurance.. the reason is simple, it's a cost of about 300 or so a month our of out pockets (actually out of my wifes check) that's our total cost..
If we jump on my insurance, it will cost me the employee portion as well as the employer portion,, total just over 800 a month.. makes sense for me to stay where we are for now..
same with some employees,, if the spouse of my employee gets a good plan at lower cost, they should stay on thier spouses plan., just a decision you gotta make I guess..
If my wife gets laid off again, then it would be better to be on my plan because her COBRA payments would exceed my companies plan, but not by much.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Sounds like something from behind the iron curtain. What she's saying is "don't speak out against Obamacare or you'll be put out of business". The cost of this great health plan will be passed on to consumers, but if they say that they'll be shut down. Welcome to socialized medicine, everyone.
No, more like stopping the lies. Your idea of a great healthcare system is having everything privatized and put into the stock market. Just great, when you are sick let the stock market decide if and when you get treatment. Lovely idea, why don't you just go buy a lottery card instead with your life savings. If you win, you are covered. If you lose, you are out on the street. But, hey, at least it isn't that filthy "socialism" where people care about you.
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And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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Lovely idea, why don't you just go buy a lottery card instead with your life savings. If you win, you are covered. If you lose, you are out on the street.
Or you could just get a decent education or develop a marketable skill so you could get a decent job and have health insurance.. I suppose in your world that equates to winning the lottery... 
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But, hey, at least it isn't that filthy "socialism" where people care about you.
You think socialism is brought to you by people that CARE ABOUT YOU?  I'm sure Obama and Pelosi and Reid care about you.. as they will sit in their mansions with their millions and their premier retirement packages and their gold plated healthcare dividing up things for the rest of us little people making sure that we are all kept at or below some average standard of living so none of us can challenge what they have....
until we get fed up and start shooting them..  and that's how the revolutions begin..
yebat' Putin
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If you look at history, every version of socialism ever tried tends to raise those at the upper rungs of power up even higher .... and depress everyone else down to the lowest levels of existance struggling for survival.
Man, it sounds so good in theory ..... everyone pitching in equally ... and everyone reaping the rewards equally ....... but effort, ambition, and determination are never truly equal variables.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The only way socialism works is on a small scale where everybody participating is doing so voluntarily.. like a commune. (I know that word has negative connotations but its true) a smallish group of like minded people can make a socialist system work... the bigger the group gets the more "human nature" is going to take over and if people are forced to participate against their will then forget about it, it will never work.
yebat' Putin
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Yep.
All it takes is one person to completely gum up the works.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm wondering how people expect socialism to work when half of the country doesn't contribute (pay taxes).
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The only way socialism works is on a small scale where everybody participating is doing so voluntarily.. like a commune. (I know that word has negative connotations but its true) a smallish group of like minded people can make a socialist system work... the bigger the group gets the more "human nature" is going to take over and if people are forced to participate against their will then forget about it, it will never work.
Completely agree, and I've said that all along. The smaller the group the better. It also helps, because you can ostracize members of the group who won't put in their fair share. You can't do that on a national level without being pretty Draconian or taking away major freedoms. (Like the USSR)
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I've figured out what the fatal flaw of Capitalism is ... Those that oppose it will refuse to take jobs in the "Evil Corporate Sector" and will instead take jobs as educators, to brainwash the next generation into thinking that Socialism is a good alternative.
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#gmstrong
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You know the old expression.. "those who can, do.. those who can't, teach."
yebat' Putin
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he better understand it..... cause we will be paying him pretty close to 15k...
So...your new and better health insurance is STILL cheaper...even after dropping 15k to your attorney - so someone on your side understands the ramifications of the new bill?
If the states succeed in getting the bill repealed, will you get back your 15k?
What does you doctor say about the ramifications of actual health CARE under this new bill? I have several doctor clients...actual healthCARE is not going to be pretty under this wonderful 'overhaul' (aka takeover).
More unintended consequences of more government control.
No,, not if you add in the legal fees.. but the legal fees are just a cost of doing business. whenever a law changes that may effect us, we do the responsible thing and hire someone that is an expert in that field to advise us.
If more companies did that, they wouldn't bet blindsided..
But I do like the way you put a spin on that...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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No,, not if you add in the legal fees.. but the legal fees are just a cost of doing business. whenever a law changes that may effect us, we do the responsible thing and hire someone that is an expert in that field to advise us.
If more companies did that, they wouldn't bet blindsided..
But I do like the way you put a spin on that...
Spin?
Prior to the healthcare takeover, did you EVER pay 15k to your attorney to understand the healthcare laws and how they fit your company? Yes or no?
Somehow that is spin in your world? How about "...but the legal fees are just a cost of doing business..."? THERE is the spin.
"If more companies did that, they wouldn't bet blindsided"
Ya think? They are. Maybe that is why hiring is in the crapper 
I wish you and I could sit down with a white board and have a discussion...you seem to be a smart guy...misguided...but smart nonetheless. I'd like to think I could drag you from the darkside. 
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Have anyone working for you as an independent contractor that you 1099? This is gonna be a mess. http://money.cnn.com/2010/05/05/smallbusiness/1099_health_care_tax_change/Health care law's massive, hidden tax change By Neil deMause, contributing writerMay 5, 2010: 11:00 PM ET NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- An all-but-overlooked provision of the health reform law is threatening to swamp U.S. businesses with a flood of new tax paperwork. Section 9006 of the health care bill -- just a few lines buried in the 2,409-page document -- mandates that beginning in 2012 all companies will have to issue 1099 tax forms not just to contract workers but to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in goods or services in a tax year. The stealth change radically alters the nature of 1099s and means businesses will have to issue millions of new tax documents each year. Right now, the IRS Form 1099 is used to document income for individual workers other than wages and salaries. Freelancers receive them each year from their clients, and businesses issue them to the independent contractors they hire. But under the new rules, if a freelance designer buys a new iMac from the Apple Store, they'll have to send Apple a 1099. A laundromat that buys soap each week from a local distributor will have to send the supplier a 1099 at the end of the year tallying up their purchases. The bill makes two key changes to how 1099s are used. First, it expands their scope by using them to track payments not only for services but also for tangible goods. Plus, it requires that 1099s be issued not just to individuals, but also to corporations. Taken together, the two seemingly small changes will require millions of additional forms to be sent out. "It's a pretty heavy administrative burden," particularly for small businesses without large in-house accounting staffs, says Bill Rys, tax counsel for the National Federation of Independent Businesses. Eliminating the goods exemption could launch an avalanche of paperwork, he says: "If you cater a lunch for other businesses every Wednesday, say, that's a lot of information to keep track of throughout the year." The paper trail Why did these tax code revisions get included in a health-care reform bill? Welcome to Washington. The idea seems to be that using 1099 forms to capture unreported income will generate more government revenue and help offset the cost of the health bill. A Democratic aide for the Senate Finance Committee, which authored the changes, defended the move. "Information reporting improves tax compliance without raising taxes on small businesses," the aide said. "Health care reform includes more than $35 billion in tax cuts for small businesses ... indicating that during these tough economic times, Congress is delivering the tax breaks small businesses need to thrive." The new rules could drastically alter the tax-reporting landscape by spotlighting payments that previously went unreported. Freelancers and other independent operators typically write off stacks of business expenses; having to issue tax paperwork documenting each of them could cut down on fraudulent deductions. More significantly, the 1099 trail would expose payments to small operators that might now be going unreported. If you buy a computer for your business from a major chain retailer, the seller almost certainly documents the revenue. But if you buy it from Tim's Computer Shack down the street, Tim might not report and pay taxes on his income from the sale. The IRS estimates that the federal government loses more than $300 billion each year in tax revenue on income that goes unreported. Using 1099s to document millions of transactions that now go untracked is one way to begin to close the gap. While all but unnoticed at the time -- a Pennsylvania business group issued the first warning last October as the idea emerged in draft Senate legislation -- the 1099 rule changes began sparking attention in the blogosphere in the last week. The libertarian Cato Institute called it a "costly, anti-business nightmare"; Rep. Dan Lungren, R-Calif., introduced legislation last week that would repeal the new 1099 requirements. The notion of mailing a tax form to Costco or Staples each year to document purchases may seem absurd to small business owners, but that's not the worst of it, tax experts say. Marianne Couch, a principal with the Cokala Tax Group in Michigan and former chair of a citizen advisory group to the IRS on small business and self-employed tax issues, thinks the bigger headache will be data collection: gathering names and taxpayer identification numbers for every payee and vendor that you do business with. But she also sees a silver lining in the new law. Her firm already recommends collecting tax data on all vendors, since the IRS requires that you have it on hand at the time of the transaction, not just at tax-filing time. And eliminating the corporate and goods exemptions at least means that businesses will no longer have to pour over every transaction to determine if it needs a 1099. The new rule is simpler: If it crosses the $600 threshold, it's in. "There are probably going to be some hiccups along the way, because systems will need to be redesigned," says Couch. "But overall I believe it will make compliance on the payor end a lot more streamlined and easier." In any case, the final impact of the law won't be known until the IRS issues its regulations on the new law, which aren't expected to arrive until sometime next year. The IRS has not yet commented on when it will release regulations or schedule public hearings, and an agency spokesman was unsure when it will do so. The new requirements kick in January 1, 2012.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Thankfully they will take the cost of all of this paperwork out of their profit and our cost of goods and services will not go up.
yebat' Putin
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Thankfully they will take the cost of all of this paperwork out of their profit and our cost of goods and services will not go up.
Exactly.
If they raise prices as a result, the government can always have a department put out a threatening letter asking why ......... 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All we have right now is a bill that few have read and nobody understands totally
Including the people that wrote and passed it.
I can't speak for politicians,, but our lawyer just sent us the bill for his services reviewing how it applies to us and guiding us with the insurance company (aetna)
he better understand it..... cause we will be paying him pretty close to 15k...
I guess I missed this post.
I'm confused now. You get health insurance through a health insurance company - aetna. Right?
But you had to hire an attorney, pay him $15,000 to basically "decode" the bill? What did Aetna do for you? Why didn't aetna say "hey, we have this figured out - here's what your health insurance will cost."?
I'm confused.
And yes, your companies must be huge - cause temp agencies generally don't pay health insurance for the temps - only the full time office personnel - so if you have 60 or 65 full time employees - that's a damn big temp agency.
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Well you buy the insurance through Aetna but you need a lawyer and a small team of accountants to make sure you aren't in violation of any rules buried within the 3000 page healthcare bill that might cause you to be fined, imprisoned, sanctioned, or castrated.
I mean just going to an insurance company and setting up an insurance plan for your people? That is soooo two years ago....
yebat' Putin
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Prior to the healthcare takeover, did you EVER pay 15k to your attorney to understand the healthcare laws and how they fit your company? Yes or no?
Nope, but we have paid that amount to understand the ramifications of other labor related issues.. like I said, it's the cost of doing business
So yeah,, its spin.. you wanted to find a way to make it so it wasn't a better deal so you wanted me to add in the cost of our legal fees.. yet, legal fees are a basic fact of life for any business..
But I guess that doesn't fit your agenda so of course, you wouldn't think it's spin....nice try....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Well you buy the insurance through Aetna but you need a lawyer and a small team of accountants to make sure you aren't in violation of any rules buried within the 3000 page healthcare bill that might cause you to be fined, imprisoned, sanctioned, or castrated.
I mean just going to an insurance company and setting up an insurance plan for your people? That is soooo two years ago....
Ain't that the truth.......
Problem with the bill is, it gives the gov't. the right, the ability - to mandate we all pay for insurance (well, those of us that had it, plus it pays to cover an additional 30 million or so - gov't. estimate there).........but, it does nothing to very little to address actual "health care". It does a ton to address gov't. oversight though.
I sure hope damans attorney is a genius, because if even a company like Aetna is relying on damans attorneys - and they must be cause his policy is from them - but apparently damans attorney holds sway with Aetna............well, his attorney is light years ahead of our gov't..
I wonder what will or won't be covered.
I wonder how, with all the "reform", and millions more covered at no to very little cost to them - how do rates go down?
I have an idea - and that is, if people remember, much of the gov't. "savings" was going to be gotten by reducing the already low medicare and medicaid payments to doctors and hospitals. Reduce payments, but increase use?
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,961 |
Quote:
? What did Aetna do for you? Why didn't aetna say "hey, we have this figured out
LOL don't be confused.. it's simple,, neither me or my partner trusted what the insurance companies were telling us.. would you after the things that have taken place in this country with insurance? we didn't, so we hired an expert to help us decipher the ins and outs.
truth be told, we don't know how much if anything he saved us,, hard to tell, but we are sure we are complient with the law as it's stated today..
Now, if somehow down the road it gets repealed,, no problem,, we are far ahead of the game. it's a no lose situation for us. We have good insurance at decent rates..
I'm amazed that you and Willie find this so hard to grasp.. I don't know if we are lucky or what, but I"m pretty sure we aren't the only ones out there finding a way to adapt to the changing landscape..
I would be easy for me to hang my head and say "woe is me" but that's really not by style.. I'm more upbeat. if something doesn't work one way, I'll try another. Being selfemployed, I really don't have a choice but to make things work.
Last edited by Damanshot; 09/17/10 03:42 PM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
I think the point is valid on both sides though.
In your particular business, you probably have an attorney that you use regularly for consultation on a wide range of business issues. Your business probably deals with changing law, rules, classifications, and tax code issues every year. Perhaps $15,000 isn't as big a deal as this might be what you pay out "anyway" as part of doing business.
However, a different small business owner, such as a small store operator or such probably has a tax person they use, but not a lawyer that they regularly consult. Their business isn't one that requires regular consultation with a lawyer, except in case of an accident or similar problem, so in their case it would be a large additional expense.
That $15,000 is about a full time employee at $7.50 per hour. ($7.50 X 38 hours per week X 52 weeks per year) So, while it may not be a huge problem to your business, a small business that relies on minimum wage employee could find themselves unable to fill one position because of the additional legal expense.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,201 |
Quote:
mandates that beginning in 2012 all companies will have to issue 1099 tax forms not just to contract workers but to any individual or corporation from which they buy more than $600 in goods or services in a tax year.
So, I'm going to have to 1099 the datacenter company that I buy my rack space from just so I can host this site?
Gee... thank you Obama 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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