|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
It is wrong to drop $15k with an attorney to "understand" your healthcare takeover options and then try to brush off that money as a "cost of doing business"...as opposed to calling it what it is
NO, It's not wrong to spend money to assure you are doing things properly..
ANYTIME there are significant changes in Tax law or any law that can cause changes in the way you do business, it's NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER a wrong thing to make sure you are doing things correctly,,
LIke I said, you don't have a clue..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,667 |
Quote:
NO, It's not wrong to spend money to assure you are doing things properly..
Daman he is not faulting you for doing so....what is faulting is the fact you had to do so in the first place....and he faults you for not recognizing that had it not been for this convoluted legislation...you would not have needed to spend 15K on a lawyer in the first place and therefore that 15K is indirectly associated with your Healthcare costs...
If you want to see it as "the cost of doing business" Great...whatever floats your boat....I guess ignorance is bliss....I don't mean that in a mean spirited or insulting way....you are simply ignoring the fact that you had to pay someone 15K in the process of getting your Health Insurance and attributing them as costs that would have been there anyway ie. the cost of doing business.... I don't think most people would agree with you...but like I said whatever floats your boat.
It is your business, and your money...Hope you are happy with the results.
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
NO, It's not wrong to spend money to assure you are doing things properly..
ANYTIME there are significant changes in Tax law or any law that can cause changes in the way you do business, it's NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER a wrong thing to make sure you are doing things correctly,,
Daman I agree with you in that you are just protecting yourself because the cost of screwing up would dwarf that $15K.. I have no problem with you protecting yourself and your business.. but. (who saw that coming?  )
Should you have to? And this isn't as much Obama as it is big government in general.. should a small business owner NEED a small team of accountants and attorneys just to know how to pay his taxes? Should he need them to make sure he isn't violating law just to provide his employees health insurance? What about liability insurance or auto insurance? My problem is not with you for protecting yourself my problem is with a government that puts out a 3000 page monstrosity of a healthcare bill that requires a JD to understand (and I will be that if you asked 10 lawyers to interpret it you'd get 10 different answers)... That's what I can't stand, that's what I would fight against, it's not that you did it, it's that you felt like you had to do it... It's health insurance.. as a smart person there is no need to have a piece of legislation that you can't read and comprehend that isn't full of 80000 loopholes and tricks and traps.. it's rather sad and disgusting when you think about it.
Our founding fathers placed the framework for the greatest nation in the history of the world and they did it on about 3 pieces of parchment.. it took 3000 pages to explain the new healthcare system? It's ridiculous.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Well there's the trick ... we need a new amendment that forces congressmen to handwrite their bills using quill and parchment ... just WATCH those pork infested bills disappear!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
NO, It's not wrong to spend money to assure you are doing things properly..
ANYTIME there are significant changes in Tax law or any law that can cause changes in the way you do business, it's NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER a wrong thing to make sure you are doing things correctly,,
When there are changes to the tax law, I talk to my accountant - he answers my questions and advises me. Free of charge, believe it or not. He does that so it is simpler for him to do my taxes at the end of the year. Now, granted, I'm a tiny business, I understand that.
If there were changes to my health insurance, I would talk with the agent that I bought the insurance from - it is HIS/HER job to explain to me. That's what they get paid to do.
When I changed business insurance last year - I spoke with the agent - who went over everything from top to bottom with me - PRIOR to me getting insurance from them. Top to bottom - in detail - even explained to me that I do not have coverage due to any act of terrorism. (unless I wanted to pay more for it).
It just seems odd that you felt the need to pay an attorney that works for you - to "decode" the new bill, that hasn't taken effect yet, and won't for several more years for the most part.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
He doesn't know my business, he doesn't understand the expense we have and the risks we take.. he knows absolutly nothing about what I do and for that matter, most on here don't..
I WOULD NEVER tell someone else that it was wrong for them to consult a professional,, for any reason..,
What willie still doesn't get. and apparently neither do you.. is that I didn't HAVE to use an attorney, I CHOSE to use an attorney.. It was a business decision and therefore a business expense..
THe 15k for attorney fees is nothing compared to what we could get into if we do things wrong. There are plenty of issues like that.,., Workers comp, Unemployment, FMLA, harrasment, etc etc....
Sometimes we need to use an attorney, other times we need to use the services of a CPA. Sometimes they charge us, sometimes they don't.. all depends on the question or problem..
Willie is just ticked off because my recent experience doesn't fall in the catagory everyone that opposes healthcare reform wants it to fall into..
He can't say that it's going to cost jobs anymore,, I'm hiring like crazy... He can't say it's going to cost EVERYONE more, because it's costing me less..
All he can say is, I had to hire an attorney to sort it out..... AGAIN, I didn't HAVE TO,, I CHOSE TO....
I get that he thinks it's WRONG that I should have to hire an attorney to sort this out.. But we felt it was a prudent move to make sure we are doing things correctly. Again,, ONE MORE TIME.. I didn't NEED to hire an attorney, it was a choice..
Another thing that I haven't seen anybody think of is that these new laws, the most important ones haven't even taken effect yet.. they won't for a while.
I'm totally and completely sure that we could have waited to see how it fleshes out and make decisions without an attorney down the road.. But again, we didn't feel like we wanted to wait, we wanted to be ahead of the curve so to speak.. and this early on in the game, it seemed like the right thing..
So,, it's time willie and everyone else come up off my butt about something like this..
You simply don't know all the facts and I'm not going to teach you..
What amazes me is that CONSTANTLY on here, we hear folks talk about taking responsibility for thier actions. Making good decisions.. etc etc..
SO I do just that, I run ahead of the curve, I try to run a clean business and all I get is NITPICKY crap... All because it doesn't fit with Anti Obama, Anti Healthcare reform, anti this and anti that...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
It just seems odd that you felt the need to pay an attorney that works for you - to "decode" the new bill, that hasn't taken effect yet, and won't for several more years for the most part.
It's not odd at all.. it's exactly what we wanted to do..
We wanted to be ahead of the game,, Last minute decisions are what get people in trouble.. we didn't want that. we wanted to avoid rushing.,...
What I find odd is that you and Willie and others don't understand the concept of being proactive.. I don't know why you find that odd..
Had GM been more proactive like Ford was, they wouldn't have needed a bailout.. same with Chrysler.. and banks and brokerage/investment firms.
Had some of my competitors have been proactive about cost control, they wouldn't have gone out of business over the last 2 years.
How anyone can find it ODD that we would be proactive is beyond belief.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
All I find odd is you have an attorney that supposedly knows how things will play out - when the people that created the bill don't even know - the insurance companies don't even know.
What I find odd is you feel this health reform bill will help you when the laws don't even take effect for a few years. That's what I find odd, yet you claim that the health reform bill helps you - when the only changes as of now are increased taxes to pay for the changes that come in a few years.
That's what I find odd.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
All I find odd is you have an attorney that supposedly knows how things will play out - when the people that created the bill don't even know - the insurance companies don't even know.
That is an assumption on your part.. I do believe that the Insurance companies have know from the get go... So when they tell you they don't understand it, I don't believe them..
NO way do I get the deal I got without them understanding it.. No Way.
Quote:
What I find odd is you feel this health reform bill will help you when the laws don't even take effect for a few years.
Show me where I ever said it will help me? I didn't.. I did say that my rates are lower, the employees rates are lower and the deductables are lower.. so from that stand point, it did I guess.
Did it help my pocket today,, you damn skippy it did. will it in two years, I'm not sure I'll even be alive in 2 years.. but our best guess based on the research is that it won't hurt us as much as people want to make it out to.
Quote:
That's what I find odd, yet you claim that the health reform bill helps you
I don't remember saying that... see above
Quote:
when the only changes as of now are increased taxes to pay for the changes that come in a few years.
Like you and everyone else, I'll deal with that when/if it happens.
I find it odd that you want to twist my words to fit your agenda...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
That's what I find odd, yet you claim that the health reform bill helps you
I don't remember saying that... see above
Quote:
when the only changes as of now are increased taxes to pay for the changes that come in a few years.
Like you and everyone else, I'll deal with that when/if it happens.
I find it odd that you want to twist my words to fit your agenda...
Whatever.
Here is your original post in this thread: "Quote:
You all know I run a business right... well, I just finished working out our arrangment for employee health insurance under the new plan..
Our coverages increased (in short, it's a better plan)
Our costs went down
We were able to offer employees more options
Thier costs went down as well
OK,, now I have the actual effect it's having on my business and all the predictions of doom and gloom aren't accurate as far as we are concerned..
Better plan, lower costs for all parties, lower deductables (not by much but lower).
SO,, what's that mean?
Does that mean that everyone that said that Obamacare would ruin the nation are incorrect? could it mean that?
Or does it mean that Im the luckiest business owner on the planet?
See, you yourself implied that "people that think Obama care will ruin the nation are wrong".
My point is - since you obviously don't get it - Obama care, as you call it - has NOT taken effect yet. So your "better rates, better benefits" stuff has nothing to do with it, although you lamely have attempted to attribute it to Obama.
You also shrug off the $15,000 you spent as "a business expense", while I call it a waste of money at this point.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
What willie still doesn't get. and apparently neither do you.. is that I didn't HAVE to use an attorney, I CHOSE to use an attorney.. It was a business decision and therefore a business expense..
Oh I do and I understand the need for legal advice, I get it all the time regarding contracts..... but let me personalize it.. if I owned a business and if I wanted to provide good benefits for my people including health insurance... then I'd be ticked if I had to (or felt like I needed to) drop $15K to a lawyer just to make sure I didn't run afoul of some massive healthcare bill that doesn't make sense to anybody... 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
What willie still doesn't get. and apparently neither do you.. is that I didn't HAVE to use an attorney, I CHOSE to use an attorney.. It was a business decision and therefore a business expense..
Oh I do and I understand the need for legal advice, I get it all the time regarding contracts..... but let me personalize it.. if I owned a business and if I wanted to provide good benefits for my people including health insurance... then I'd be ticked if I had to (or felt like I needed to) drop $15K to a lawyer just to make sure I didn't run afoul of some massive healthcare bill that doesn't make sense to anybody...
AND, won't take effect for 2 more years.
I remember, maybe a year ago or so - in a "health insurance reform bill" thread, saying our (my wifes and I) insurance costs decreased. And very few believed me. No reduction in care, no increase in premiums - in fact a DECREASE in premiums, no raise in deductibles...........and some didn't believe me.
They still said "no, we need reform to reduce costs".
I did not attribute the decrease in costs to Bush, Obama, or any other political entity at the time. And I still don't.
You see, my health care costs decreased regardless.
Yet daman wants people to think HIS health care costs - of his "small" business, that operates in 22 or 28 states, has decreased DUE to health care reform.
When, in fact, other people had the same result even before the bill passed. When in fact nothing in the bill has been enacted yet! (take that back - a few minor things have been enacted). But, 95% of the bill doesn't take effect until 2012. So how the hell can someone say "due to obama care, my care went up, and my costs down"..........when O care isn't even here yet????????????
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
See, you yourself implied that "people that think Obama care will ruin the nation are wrong".
well, in a manner of speaking, from my perspective, that does appear to be a correct statement...
What's your point.. Oh wait for it,, here it comes
Quote:
My point is - since you obviously don't get it - Obama care, as you call it - has NOT taken effect yet. So your "better rates, better benefits" stuff has nothing to do with it, although you lamely have attempted to attribute it to Obama.
That was your point... that's it? gimme a break arch.
I didn't coin the phrase Obamacare.. thats in the title of the thread, I just followed along.. Most times I've refered to it as Healthcare Reform... putting words in my mouth again are we?
See, once again you don't understand a damn thing...
My plan, the one we just signed up for is COMPLIENT with the Healthcare Reform act..
and again, you have fumbled the ball.....
I didn't attribute it to Obama,,, that's your hatrid running amock again...
I got this deal IN SPITE of healthcare reform,,
Not because of it.
All I've really done is prove that the end of the world isn't as near as some have predicted....What's funny about this is, that's all I was ever trying to point out,, but you and Willie decided that it was important to back me in a corner...
Well, I guess that failed also...
What's your next attack going to be about... let's hear it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
daman, relax. I'm not backing you into a corner.
You yourself implied that you got the deal you did because of the health reform bill.
All I have done is said "The health care reform bill does not take effect until 2012..........how can you attribute your better health insurance to the bill?"
Please, re read everything.
Also, remember a year ago when I said OUR (mine and wifes) health care premiums went down? You were one that didn't believe me, although you were not as vocal as some.
Here's the bottom line: Your attorney has no clue what the new health care reform bill will do. It won't take effect for quite some time.
Don't get all pissy with me because I point that out. Don't get all pissy and say "Arch hates anything Obama". That's stupid of you to do, and you are smarter than that.
DO realize the health care reform bill has not taken effect. As important as it was to "pass it overnight, or else", the results don't take effect for a long time. Other than the taxes. To insinuate otherwise, as you did, is lunacy. It really is that simple.
I don't begrudge you your cheaper premiums for better care. Hell, a year ago we got cheaper premiums for the same care. That's a good thing. But it's not because of the health care reform bill anymore than MY rates decreasing were because of the bill.
Can you understand that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
I'm relaxed,,, I just get a kick out of people that can't accept that somethings just aren't or at least may not be as mixed up or crazy as they think. That all the doom and gloom projected by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck to name a few, doesn't appear to be completely factual..
But let me make one point here,,, for the moment, it appears that I have set myself up to be ready for everything I can think of coming my way.. Do I absolutly have it covered 100%.. to be honest, I doubt anyone could. But I've done my best. We'll see how it goes..
It cracks me up,, to be honest, I'd think that folks would be glad to hear that there is a way to get the job done no matter what the politicians do to us.. But I guess I'm wrong again..
I guess that as long as it doesn't put Obama down or his policies down,,, then it's not good enough for some... Some folks will do anything, ANYTHING to promote hatrid..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
And you didn't even read my post, did you?
My costs went down last year. PRIOR to O's health care reform bill, which WILL raise costs, whether you like it or not.
Your costs went down this year - although you paid an extra $15,000 for it.
You do realize the changes don't take effect until 2012, right? Yet, you attribute your savings to Obama.
Sorry bud, you can't have it both ways. I am NOT anti Obama. I AM anti anything that hurts this country - always have been, always will be.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
Quote:
I'm NOT anti Obama. I AM anti anything that hurts this country - always have been, always will be.
You sure seemed to defend the last moron quite a bit ... and he put a serious hurt on the country.
You just hate Obama.  
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,960 |
Quote:
And you didn't even read my post, did you?
My costs went down last year. PRIOR to O's health care reform bill, which WILL raise costs, whether you like it or not.
Your costs went down this year - although you paid an extra $15,000 for it.
You do realize the changes don't take effect until 2012, right? Yet, you attribute your savings to Obama.
Sorry bud, you can't have it both ways. I am NOT anti Obama. I AM anti anything that hurts this country - always have been, always will be.
And you didn't read my post where I indicated that we looked forward into a time when our plan will fit the new healthcare reform..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Gangster Government Stifles
Criticism of Obamacare
|
|
