DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns contacted Eagles about Kolb?

Just wondering ... but why are so many people so quick to annoint first rounders (Quinn) and second rounders (Kolb) as starters ... yet as soon as it hits later in the draft (McCoy for this example) the player is somehow not good enough ... as if his stats dont matter and only his draft position does?

For that matter, in January Jake Locker would have been the #1 pick or would have been top 2 QB and probably a top 5 pick at the least ... but some analysts are already speculating that he has dropped out of the top 10... if for whatever reason Washington underperforms and Locker slips to the end of the first .. that doesnt make him any less of a player .. it just means that public speculation was wrong ...

So in the same way .. if McCoy has shown us nothing .. Im wondering how many people would already be annointing him the next starter if we would have been foolish enough to trade up and take him in the second ... versus we got him in the mid third so now he is destined to be a backup or journeyman ...?

Locker falling out of the top ten at this point are premature. He's still a top 10 at this moment, but if he continues downward then he will, one bad game is one bad game

LOL,, I've been asking a similar question for years..

Ryan Leaf, picked very high, Bust

Tom Brady, picked in the 6th round,, 3 superbowl rings

Go figure,,

near as I can tell, it's all about expectations.. which, as it turns out, don't really mean much at all..

yes, it's about expectations, but it is also about percentages.

1st round QBs are more likely to succeed than 6th round QBs. The reason that QBs slip is because they are missing some of the skillset that creates the "perfect" NFL QB.

now, just because you have the skillset doesn't mean you are going to be successful. it's just that you are more likely to be successful.

Ok so tell me again why Tom Brady slipped to the 6th round... and why Brett Favre slipped to the second round?

I hear what your saying No Logo,, and it makes perfect sense..

Still, I can't see any reason on earth why a guy picked in the later rounds can't be successful.. So much depends on what you surround a guy with..

I've wondered if Tom Brady could have succeeded here in 2000.. I think not. Hell, he might be battered and beaten to death and out of the game already, without a ring let alone 3.

I dunno,....I still believe Quinn had "the skillset" but just didn't have the "it" factor. You couple that with being surrounded by a poorer cast than perhaps a 6th round Tom Brady had, and you get what we got.

That's not to say Tom Brady wouldn't have had more success, had he been injected into the mess that Brady Quinn was. And TB probably didn't hold out, as a 6th rounder, he was just thankful to get picked at all.

I'm not sticking up for Quinn -- he had his chances. Tom has made the most of his, but he definitely had better cards to play with,....

I hope they both stay healthy, and live long and prosper. Money certainly shouldn't be an issue.

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Ok so tell me again why Tom Brady slipped to the 6th round...

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One scout wrote about Brady prior to the draft in a scouting report that Tom had "Poor build, very skinny and narrow, lacks mobility and the ability to avoid the rush, lacks a really strong arm."

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and why Brett Favre slipped to the second round?

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Because he went to Southern Mississippi and we all know that smaller school guys don't play against good enough competition to be fairly evaluated...

One thing about Southern Miss....that seem to play "up" a lot

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One scout wrote about Brady prior to the draft in a scouting report that Tom had "Poor build, very skinny and narrow, lacks mobility and the ability to avoid the rush, lacks a really strong arm."

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Gotta wonder if that scout that wrote that is still employed...

That was the general consensus regarding Brady at the time.

He QB'd a Michigan team that was a great rushing team. (IIRC, they were close to the tops in the country in running the ball)

The Wolverines were not a great passing team. They did OK under Brady ..... but weren't a powerhouse through the air. He had something like 35 total TDs and 5300 yards passing in his entire Michigan career. (starting for 2 years) Hardly a screaming endorsement for a team to jump up in the draft to grab him.

If "a scout" got fired over Brady .... I would guess that every scout would have to get fired. lol

My point was, aren't scouts supposed to be able to see past things like that to look at what his skills are? and then project them to the pros?

Just asking..

The thing is though, that he doesn't do the same things as he did in college.

It seems like his arm got significantly stronger since he came to the NFL. He doesn't float passes like he did in college. He's also a LOT more accurate than he was in college. (and yes, I know he completed a high percentage at Michigan, but he puts his receivers in better positions to make the catch and run now)

He's not the same QB he was when he came into the NFL. He took several leaps forward since he was drafted. Not just small steps ..... but pretty sizable leaps. You can hope for that ..... but as a scout, you certainly can't plan on it happening.

Just wondering ... but why are so many people so quick to annoint first rounders (Quinn) and second rounders (Kolb) as starters ... yet as soon as it hits later in the draft (McCoy for this example) the player is somehow not good enough ... as if his stats dont matter and only his draft position does?


In theory a QB selected in the first round is seen as having the skillset to start very early in his career and a 3rd or later round QB is evaluated as one who has to develop more ,and take longer ,and may just be a backup..in a poor QB class the best one is often reached on ..as we have seen many times......

Well I agree with you guys on a lot of this ... Heres another thought that comes to mind ...

Someone stated Brady was part of a running attack so they couldn't evaluate him as a passer or they just didnt see enough of him to think he could be a good passer in the league .... why then do teams tend to write off the passing attack or air raid teams quickly? I figure if players like a Graham Harrell (not an endorsement, just an example) can pass 40 - 50 times a game for all 12 to 14 games in the season ... shouldnt they be more prepared to make those throws in the nfl because they actually had in game experience versus someone in a pro style offense that might only pass 20 to 25 times an average game?

And as much as I can agree to take the franchise QB if he is there (and our front office believes he is ...) would this regime really draft one of those 3 qbs (Luck Mallet Locker) .. knowing that by %'s 1 will probably be a bust ..? AND including Holmgren pulled rank as they say and selected McCoy just last year?

In college QB's from pass happy teams are often up against inferior defenses per man.
The NFL is another monster as the defense as a whole(per man) is stronger/bigger and the most important factor..FASTER..the window to complete passes are smaller..greater margin for error.
The things a college QB could get away with(poor mechanics/running/holding onto ball longer/staring down recievers) are not things he will be successful with on the pro level.
One more thing ,being able to read a defense is essential..it's a must..

So if a prospec has the skills plus the intangibles he's considered a high prospect..if he is weak in a lot of areas plus does not possess a strong arm his stock drops..

Agree, because if McCoy was "all that" and a bowl of cereal, he would have been taken a lot earlier by another team (or even the Browns,...)

It would be GREAT if he turned out to be the next Tom Brady, but he has to play to get there,...don't mean to condescend.

If the Ravens blow us away, I say get the kid figured out,...(?)

No I agree entirely with you ... but does that suggest in at least some small way that we should be looking for quarterbacks who aren't necessarily amazing in terms of pure stats ... but in terms of having some success against the best defenses? I mean Jay Cutler won nothing at Vanderbuilt ... but could see the tough defenses of the SEC week in and week out ... (side note .. I dont recall what kind of offense vandy runs ... but I want to say it must be pretty offensive ..)

So would you say then to stay away from smaller conferences and see which qbs do the most against the best without having the best around them? If thats the case I would say look at the mid tier schools in the SEC and Big 10 ... and maybe the Pac10 .. (also maybe the big 12 .. but it depends on if you believe they have adequate defenses and not just a spread offense)

Teams like Iowa and Ricky Stansi could be good .. not because I know hes from Mentor .. but because the big 10 defenses are tough

Or maybe a guy like Stephen Garcia from South Carolina ... Ive only seen a couple games with him .. but he has played against a tough SEC, but hasnt exactly had a lot ... he had 17 tds 10 ints last year with 55.3% completion ...

Not trying to pimp either prospect .. but Im trying to gauge all your opinions on whether or not we just look at the "player" in terms of measurables or if we also have to look at the competition that they face AND the talent that is around them ... because Jamarcus faced the tough SEC also .. but had a lot of talent around him so I think you have to account for both...

No I agree entirely with you ... but does that suggest in at least some small way that we should be looking for quarterbacks who aren't necessarily amazing in terms of pure stats ... but in terms of having some success against the best defenses?

I would say in not going into a lot of detail yes..you'll find that those who do face strong defenses and have good skillsets will have good stats also..but don't rely on stats alone..

So would you say then to stay away from smaller conferences

No..not all..scouts have to know how those QB's skillset translates to the pro game.


Not trying to pimp either prospect .. but Im trying to gauge all your opinions on whether or not we just look at the "player" in terms of measurables or if we also have to look at the competition that they face AND the talent that is around them

Actually you have to do both..all those things factor into it.It's not cut-n-dry.

Brady- Players develop and peak at different times. He was clearly a late developer and found a pro team that developed players and could coach them up (unlike some organizations). He had the right mentality and...

Problem is we normally don't allow players to develop at their pace -- especially when they are late developers. My opinion is that this is true for all sports, not just football.

Now, there are those on this board who do not believe that coaching players up is that important. They believe the Browns just draft poorly and that explains everything. Altough some of these guys are very bright about a lot of things, I have disagreed with them about this very vital topic.

McCoy- I haven't been able to see him since he joined the Browns. I only have the impressions of those on the board. Based on those I'm lead to believe he's "tiny" has a weak arm, buckles under pressure, etc...

We passed on Sanchez. When I expressed that I thought we needed to sell the farm in order to get Bradford, I was attacked. Yet, when I watched the playoffs last year, every good team had a QB who could fire accurate lazers into the run of their receivers. Teams that didn't have that (a Rodgers, Warner, Brees, Manning, etc...) were exposed quickly.

The NFL has become a passing league.

We need a top flight quarterback, or...

End of story.

Ok I get what you're saying.

Then let me ask this, if we agree that expectations are the basis of what we think of a prospect ... and we realize that because each team has scouts looking for different things, and draft boards are set up according to bpa or team need (or in oakland its who has the fastest 40 / is most likely to be arrested ...)

What I am saying is for all we know carolina had colt mccoy as their 10th best player in the league and it just so happened that clausen was the 9th

and following that logic 25 or 30 of the teams could have had (theoretically) colt mccoy as the 5th best prospect on THEIR specific board ... but because no other team except for maybe new england had 5 picks by the time we took him .. he could have been drafted in the first round ... or we could have even been one phone call or stubborn owner away from making a deal or a pick to have him go as the #33 overall on the start of the first day ...

not saying I think he will be amazing because frankly I dont see myself as a great talent evaluator of QBs ... but I'm just saying that if we take him in the 3rd it could have been luck or a steal ... and for that matter .. if we would have pulled the trigger with him and either used a pick or moved up in the 30's range ... that doesnt make him a superstar ...

so why does it seem that a lot of people (including some posters here) were pimpin him pretty hard to get him in the 2nd MAYBE the beginning of the third as a steal ... but now when we get him in the third he is labeled as a journeyman and destined for a career as a backup?

I have no dog in this fight .. just curious as to the public opinion of the board

so why does it seem that a lot of people (including some posters here) were pimpin him pretty hard to get him in the 2nd MAYBE the beginning of the third as a steal ... but now when we get him in the third he is labeled as a journeyman and destined for a career as a backup?


U'll realize after a while in here the ones that know how to evaluate talent and look at a players value ..some in here get swayed a lot about these things..just look at his skillset and you'll know or have a good idea if the guy is a future starter or a career backup..

People on here often refer to it as the eye test.

Gladwell's book Blink is dedicated to it.

With Montana, Brady, etc... you could just tell by looking at them for 5 seconds.

Seems like none of the QB's coming out of college have the complete package. I think they need great individual coaching in the pros to become a Franchise QB. They have to work hard at it.

How did Peyton and Brees strengthen their arms? Their arms are a lot stronger now than they were out of college. What did they do? Tom Brady? It appears his is also. Kurt Warner?

I've always believed that we need to bring in some really great coaches.

That, and get a new owner.

PS. By the way, we have probably the best developer of NFL Quarterbacks in history as an employee of our organization. Its time for him to put his coffee cup down, get his turf shoes on, and get to work!

Lol well I need to get indoctrinated into this site still ... but as far as the owner. .. I am happy we have who we do ... We could still have Jerry Jones ... but we could ALSO have AL Davis ...

To me, we have an owner who 1. cares (to some extent) about the team .. 2. tries to do what he can (its about intention ... not results ...) and 3. has deep pockets ... Those are the 3 top qualities I use to evaluate owners ... Dont do too much, but make sure you do enough to set up the culture for a winning organization at the top .. and if you aren't good enough, bring in someone who CAN be the top (like holmgren).

As far as the Quarterbacks .. I want to see Mallet more, becuase the chatter I have been hearing is it's down to Luck and Mallet .. and to me mallet might not have all of the same talent as the rest of the SEC .. and he plays against the sec ... Luck plays some tough teams out west .. but the toughest he will play will be a suspect USC defense ... a decent Oregon .. and wherever you judge Ucla, Oregon State and Cal to be this year ...

Mallet will have some tough games .. but I also get the feel that because he started off in the state up north a few people have reservations about him

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That, and get a new owner.

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Enlighten me again on how a new owner is going to change things?

Well if we keep playing at the level we are playing, we will likely have our choice between Luck, Mallett, Locker, Ponder, etc... Give me Luck and let's go win some games

Mallet and Locker to me look like QB's Holmgren wouldn't touch. Locker.. not accurate or decisive enough. Mallet too slow getting back and lacks supreme accuracy. I really don't see the hype for this years QB class?

Now Luck on the other hand... is perfect if he comes out. If he is there in the 1st round next year. Mark it down. He is off the board and is a Brown. Maybe... maybe Locker in Rd 2.

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If he is there in the 1st round next year. Mark it down. He is off the board and is a Brown.

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Unless we beat Buffalo.

My personal opinion is that out of all the QB's in next years draft Christian Ponder is the best fit for the west coast offense.

Locker is highly over-rated in my opinion and it is showing this year.

I didn't see the whole game, but Mallet did have a few picks .. so at this time do you rather take Mallet playing average against Alabama .. Or take Luck who beat up on a pretty bad Irish Defense (as in Notre dame .. not like the players were drunk for the game .. but that might have been true as well)


on a side note, I am not a boise state faithful ... but what do you guys feel about Kellen Moore he doesnt have the best with him, and he isnt doing it against the best ... but he's still doing it

I'll say Lockler is highly overrated.

He's still very inaccurate on his intermediate routes, and has been inaccurate in some measure on most of his passes. I have DVR every game Washington has played (minus this week) and he was looking bad against the 2 teams prior to Nebraska. Heck, Pryor is a more accurate passer than Lockler right now, and Pryor isn't nearly accurate enough to be a starting NFL QB. If not for his athleticism and size he wouldn't even be considered a first round pick...........no way in HELL do I want the Browns to draft him. I would much rather have Luck who doesn't have great athleticism that Lockler has, but can actually put the ball where he wants it to go. This won't even be a debate when the season's over as I think Lockler's stock will continue to drop like an anchor and Luck will rise to the top. My current rankings......

1. Luck (he's the #1 overall pick I imagine)
2. Mallet
3. Nobody else.......maybe a mid round flier on the Moore kid.

Christian Ponder I think is worth looking more into. As for Luck, I watched all of his throws and take-offs from the USC game last year, and he has decent mobility, plenty to step up in the pocket, but deceptive enough to take off for a few first downs. Locker of course scares me with his high boom/bust factor so I'd rather just not go down that path. Mallett does somewhat remind me of Anderception, but he is far and away a better prospect and has more potential than DA does. I'm not going to completely give up on him after looking bad against Saban's tough, confusing defenses.

Just a few random thoughts on those guys. I prefer Luck most of all. I love his mechanics, the arm, accuracy, pedigree, tutelage under Harbaugh, deceptive athleticism, etc. He's the safest QB in this draft class, IMO.

Unfortunate for the young man ( Mallet ) , he looked like another D. Anderson yesterday !

I like Mallet ... But he has a tendency to push the envelope in situations ... I think he can make all the throws .. Not sure he is as mobile as I'd like .. He's still a young talent ..

I haven't seen alot of Ponder this year, but from what I saw last year he could be worth a look if he improves his decision making (and he may have I haven't seen FSU play this year).

What separates Luck is his accuracy. I agree though he isn't the athlete that Lockler is, but he plenty mobile enough.

After once again seeing the lack of production from our offensive side of the ball (I stress the passing when I mean offensive) ...

Either we get a QB who is legit enough to make #2s and #3s look good ... or we need an O Coordinator who knows how to make ok players look better than they are. Until we get that... our defense will just have to pray that they only give up 10 points a game or we will lose.

I am officially onboard with those of you who think we need to find a way to get a franchise qb ... whether that is by drafting one in the first round ... or kidnapping one from another franchise. Another #1 wr would be good, but a true franchise QB can make everyone around him look better... and thats what we need.