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Actually, what would be good is to see the change on a week to week basis in a graph.
You sound like my boss.
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Quote:
Quote:
Actually, what would be good is to see the change on a week to week basis in a graph.
You sound like my boss.
ouch. Shaun Smith style low-blow right there.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Actually, what would be good is to see the change on a week to week basis in a graph.
I do have a JOB you know?  I'll get the master spreadsheet going and I think I can make this happen. What exact kinds of "graphs" do you want to see? Like, our rank in each category week to week or what?
Can you tell I'm an Engineer yet?
I'm also still looking for a reliable place to find stats on 3rd down conversions to confirm my suspicions about our defense.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Yes, we need a #1 WR. But are there any guys that would merit us taking them where we will be drafting. Julio Jones, A.J. Green, Michael Floyd, and Austin Pettis are all excellent players but should we really be taking any of them in the top 5 of the draft? (I'm sure some will argue we should take Sanzenbacher #1 overall  )
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lol! I wasn't actually expecting it, but I was envisioning a simple line graph when I wrote that... Week # on the x-axis, parameter value on the y-axis so that we can see the progression from left to right.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Sarcasm is difficult to convey on a message board.
There's only one stat that matters,winning.
Daman,
Turning such a negative statement as "marching headlong into mediocrity"into a positive one is a testament to your outlook on life.
I've always been amazed at how different the game is seen from opposing sidelines.
I look at this team and see a pile of dog crap,you see rose fertilizer
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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You want to know what these stats tell me?
We need to start winning the turnover battle. My constant criticism with the defense is that they simply do not force turnovers in the passing game, and we really have not forced turnovers in the passing game in years.
We need to get more ball hawking on defense.
you had a good run Hank.
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I'd be happy if we just covered the dude who was catching the ball,...
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Quote:
Sarcasm is difficult to convey on a message board.
There's only one stat that matters,winning.
Daman,
Turning such a negative statement as "marching headlong into mediocrity"into a positive one is a testament to your outlook on life.
I've always been amazed at how different the game is seen from opposing sidelines.
I look at this team and see a pile of dog crap,you see rose fertilizer
I can't help it,, it's how I'm wired.. As it turns out, it's why I seem to almost always have a smile on my face and no ulcers.... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The 32nd leading reciever in the league (yards) has 180 yards after 3 games, about 60 per game.
Watson has 12 catches for 125 yards
Moore has 3 catches for 89 yards
Cribbs has 10 catches for 143 yards
Stuckey has 5 catches for 41 yards
Massaquoi has 3 catches for 55 yards
Robiskie has 2 catches for 18 yards.
Hillis has 14 catches for 86 yards
Harrison has 4 catches for 83 yards
The obvious problem is a lack of production from the WR's. Cribbs is the only reciever of note on the team.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Your overalls from your first post: Quote:
So to summarize:
Passing : 19th
Rushing : 9th
Total : 15th
Points : 19th
And the totals according to nfl.com:
Passing: 22nd
Rushing: 11th
Total: 19th
Points: 27th
Using the POINTS for example, it appears to me that any teams you have tied (such as G Bay and Tenn each having scored 78 points and both ranked in the 4th slot instead of 4th and 5th) are taking up individual slots. This skews the appearance of the stats a GREAT DEAL. We are NOT 19th in the league in points scored, we are 27th. There are 26 teams that have scored more points than us so that makes this a factual statement.
After viewing the initial overall totals, I did ignore the rest of your stat assessments for 2 reasons:
1) They are biased/slanted
2) Its been 3 games
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The actual numbers, rankings aside, do show significant improvement over last year.
I know, I know, "stats are for losers." Um, we are an 0-3 team. Stats is all we got.
Points is still low, but if you add in the 6-10 points we left on the field, we move into the high teens, ranking-wise.
The numbers do provide an objective measure of performance that does show that the team has gotten better. If you just want to measure Wins, OK but Wins are decided by Points and just using that, you have to see that we are doing better than last year.
There were many during the offseason with the opinion that this would be a better team, but the record might not show it. I think that is exactly what we have, though the season still has a long way to go.
Remain calm, there is no need to panic. The march toward galactic domination has begun.
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Like Daman said, now we just gotta be patient and watch the move from mediocrity to meteorical, or something like that,....
Leaving/allowing all those points out there in all 3 of these games is just disgusting.
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Good stuff! Lotta werk here. It makes sense (does that mean it must be wrong and flawed?). I mean what is the point of statistics if bleacher types like me comprehend them? LOL Seriously good work, and thanks for the ranking. Thought we would be much worse off than this.  
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
Your overalls from your first post:
Quote:
So to summarize:
Passing : 19th
Rushing : 9th
Total : 15th
Points : 19th
And the totals according to nfl.com:
Passing: 22nd
Rushing: 11th
Total: 19th
Points: 27th
Using the POINTS for example, it appears to me that any teams you have tied (such as G Bay and Tenn each having scored 78 points and both ranked in the 4th slot instead of 4th and 5th) are taking up individual slots. This skews the appearance of the stats a GREAT DEAL. We are NOT 19th in the league in points scored, we are 27th. There are 26 teams that have scored more points than us so that makes this a factual statement.
After viewing the initial overall totals, I did ignore the rest of your stat assessments for 2 reasons:
1) They are biased/slanted
2) Its been 3 games
Ok so let's see here. First, you are absolutely correct we are ranked #27 in points not #19 as I stated. That was a simple and honest mistake on my part. It was a big spreadsheet to say the least to compile all this and I was doing it in between my actual JOB...so lots of stopping and starting. No idea why I made that error but I did (but the #'s were correct). Please feel free to go back through the rest of my data and see if I made another error or two somewhere...I very well might have, sorry.
As to the discrepancy in the rest of the ratings, there was no bias/slant involved. Simply the rankings you posted were the rankings for total yards per game (which I also included in my post for completeness). The final rankings I used were yards per attempt. This is IMO a much more accurate barometer of success. Do you fault the passing offense for not gaining any passing yards if they never call pass plays for example? Looking at things on a per play basis gets rid of the noise due to volume and not actual ability. (Much like how our pass defense hasn't given up lots of yards YAY! but then you look and see our opponents pass much less against us than average...and per attempt we give up a higher completion percentage and more yards...OOPS BOO!). So if YOU choose to use the total yards per game stat, that's fine I had it in there, I just feel my "to summarize" totals are much more accurate.
To the 3 games issue, I already addressed that earlier saying I agreed it was a little early to draw definitive conclusions. Lots of statistical noise yet. That was the whole reason behind Purp's suggestion of seeing these stats evolve on a week to week basis.
So, if you're going to ignore everything I did just because you found one numerical error (my fault) and looked at a couple rankings on nfl.com and said ZOMG THEY AREN'T THE SAME THIS GUY IS DUMB....well then so be it. I hope others (I know I did) got some insight into our team from all of it.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Quote:
I look at this team and see a pile of dog crap,you see rose fertilizer
I've never heard that saying before - but it's a darn good one!
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A spur of the moment type thing.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
So, if you're going to ignore everything I did just because you found one numerical error (my fault) and looked at a couple rankings on nfl.com and said ZOMG THEY AREN'T THE SAME THIS GUY IS DUMB....well then so be it.
Nope. That's not what I did nor said.
I appreciate the number crunching when it is done properly....I'm the ignoramus who a few years back charted each and every single Phil Dawson kick to illustrate to the naysayers how he was one of the best in the league. Raw stats didn't show it that well.
Have fun.
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Quote:
Quote:
So, if you're going to ignore everything I did just because you found one numerical error (my fault) and looked at a couple rankings on nfl.com and said ZOMG THEY AREN'T THE SAME THIS GUY IS DUMB....well then so be it.
Nope. That's not what I did nor said.
I appreciate the number crunching when it is done properly....I'm the ignoramus who a few years back charted each and every single Phil Dawson kick to illustrate to the naysayers how he was one of the best in the league. Raw stats didn't show it that well.
Have fun.
IIRC what we did discover was that Dawson was one of the better outdoor kickers in the league.
the former Ratbirds kicker was better. But even to say any of this is subjective.
If Cribbs is our best WR, we are in trouble. JMO
Last edited by Line Judge; 10/01/10 06:06 AM.
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If either MoMass or Robo would emerge then it would make the other that much better....
Please Daboll, slants and screens this week. Please.
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Quote:
So to summarize:
Passing : 19th
Rushing : 9th
Total : 15th
Points : 19th
Update 2 weeks later:
Passing: 22
Rushing: 20
Yards: 25
Points: 30
DEFENSE:
Pass: 18
Rush: 23
Yards: 21
Points: 13
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As the weeks pass, those offensive numbers continue to sink.
Dabol may be headed for a bye week dismissal.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Quote:
As the weeks pass, those offensive numbers continue to sink.
Dabol may be headed for a bye week dismissal.
Let's see,, the starting QB gets dinged in the first game.. The second stringer does well for a week or so, even is on the winning end of a game.. then he gets dinged and is removed and the dinged up first stringer gets plugged back in well before he's ready...
And now, we have a 3rd pick rookie coming in to start against the Steelers in Pittsburgh with a top 5 Defense to face..
If your right, Daboll needs to pack his bags now.. but I have a feeling that some of the offensive injuries to QB's may have an effect on how Mangini, Heckart and Holmgren think on this subject..
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Is it Dabol that gets tagged with running out a gimpy Delhomme and continuing to run out a limping Hillis?
Who made that decision? That's the guy that should be in the dog house.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Is it Dabol that gets tagged with running out a gimpy Delhomme and continuing to run out a limping Hillis?
Who made that decision? That's the guy that should be in the dog house.
Probably Mangini made those decisions.
But I won't knock him until someone can tell me (not what they think) what information he was given that caused him to make those decisions.
For instance, Did Delhomme say to him in the first game,, Coach, I can go and did the Medical personnel agree with that, if I'm the coach, I put him back in also. Did the same thing happen with Hillis?
Until I know the facts, I'm not going to bash mangini or anyone else..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Absent of any particular facts that we'll probably never have, I'm going to have to go with what my eyes saw, which also seemed to agree with others in the chat room watching the same games.
The first game Delhomme was kept in even though he was gimping all over the field the 2nd half of that game. The outcome was what my eyes saw at the time, a very poor decision. Then to send out a gimping Delhomme again went against what my eyes thought was a very good idea.
Mine aren't eyes that have a medicial background but is that really required to see the guy can't move around and his performance is suffering because of it?
I'm sorry, it was a poor decision the first time it was made and to make it again borders on pathetic. But then I'm willing to come to this conclusion based on what I saw on the field.
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Absent of any particular facts that we'll probably never have, I'm going to have to go with what my eyes saw, which also seemed to agree with others in the chat room watching the same games.
The first game Delhomme was kept in even though he was gimping all over the field the 2nd half of that game. The outcome was what my eyes saw at the time, a very poor decision. Then to send out a gimping Delhomme again went against what my eyes thought was a very good idea.
Mine aren't eyes that have a medicial background but is that really required to see the guy can't move around and his performance is suffering because of it?
I'm sorry, it was a poor decision the first time it was made and to make it again borders on pathetic. But then I'm willing to come to this conclusion based on what I saw on the field.
I'm not saying it wasn't a bad decision,, I'm saying I don't know what lead to them. Was Mangini being pressured to keep Delhomme in? I don't know.. and frankly I don't think so,, But I can't prove it.
Last edited by Damanshot; 10/15/10 10:56 AM.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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The outcome was what my eyes saw at the time, a very poor decision. Then to send out a gimping Delhomme again went against what my eyes thought was a very good idea.
What should have been done was once they knew what type of injury JD had,preare the backups and I'm not talking about SW who is always ready..but they could have started McCoy getting reps ,while at the same time looking for another QB..
It's not rocket science for the staff to know high ankle sprains take 4-6 weeks to heal and then there has to be precautions.
So Mangini should have taken steps to protect the situation better.
He didn't.
If they had prepared McCoy,once Wallace get hurt, then U bring in the rookie and save JD from further injury.
Trust me they saw JD in practice ,they knew how hobbled he was.
Same goes with Hillis..they knew he was banged up too..shoulda thrown every back into the mix to give this guy a break..
But I'm sure someone will manufacture a excuse why Mangini shouldn't take some heat for this.
As far as this thread goes with stats..it's ugly and will continue to be ugly..no viable WR to throw to is just disgusting.
Thats the main thing hurting the offense..no WR..
Here's your eye-popping stat...your supposed # 1 receiver has 9 catches in 5 games..wow..
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/15/10 11:53 AM.
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Quote:
But I'm sure someone will manufacture a excuse why Mangini shouldn't take some heat for this.
You must be referring to me...
I guess wondering what caused a coach to make certain decisions isn't valid.. at least according to you it isn't valid.. it must be an excuse..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You must be referring to me U must feel guilty..
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Quote:
You must be referring to me
U must feel guilty..
Hmm,, Guilty,, No.. Privileged,, you betcha
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Quote:
Points: 30
DEFENSE:
Points: 13
Putting those alone for emphasis for the few posters that continue to point to the defense as being a major problem.
#gmstrong
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What do you think would have to happen? Nobody seems to be able to hand him a "gameplan" with many glimmers of change in it, maybe a few token plays here and there, and seldom returns to things that did hurt other teams. The mix of plays and predictability might well continue to sink stats as the box loads up and stays there until we hurt an opponent with something better or different that succeeds. A little help in second half play calling might help as well. Not looking for his head, and I acknowledge people are thin. But do I see improvement, change, or challenging defenses better? Not really at all. Our success last year came against weaker teams; if it close, we have obviously been at a disadvantage, unable to close the deal. I had hoped for more. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Quote:
I guess wondering what caused a coach to make certain decisions isn't valid..
I think it's a valid concern. Because it seems everyone saw he wasn't ready except for the coach. Or did he see he was not ready but played him anyway? I'm betting on that. If that's the case, that he knew but still played him then it is valid to wonder why the heck he did that. Only I doubt there would be much sense in his reasoning.
He said he felt good about making Jake the backup. How could he? If he was really ready to play then he would have started. Why didn't he start? Because he wasn't ready. No other reason. So why play him at all if he's not ready? He doesn't even see the nonsense in what he said about it. It doesn't take a smart person to see that and it certainly doesn't take a smart person to throw Jake out there when he's not ready.
What does take a smart/brilliant/rocket scientist to do is figure out a valid reason for what caused him to make the decision. Because facts are not going to be an element in that. The fact was, and everyone saw it, Jake was hobbled, ineffective and worsening his recovery. But our boy decides to leave him in for an entire half while we all watched him get worse. He saw it too but says he left him in because he was "moving the chains". In other words, "I was willing to set back his recovery so long as we had a chance to win this one game 'cause I really need it". Whatever happened to the players best interest regarding his health? Now he's out indefinitely. But he did move the chains some. hurray!
It is valid to wonder about his line of thinking, about why he did what he did. But the real question is not so much "What caused him to make that decision?", rather ask, "When will this lunacy stop?" He makes bad decisions because he's got some agenda or motive behind many of them is my guess. Nothing else can explain to me.
He seems to make bad decisions like a shoemaker makes shoes, two at a time.
Don't give Harrison even one carry for the entire bengals game, make him stand on the sideline and watch, and then put him in for the last three kneel-down plays to end the game?! Anyone besides me think he had some agenda going on with that decision?
What a way to treat a player. And then in his presser he says Jerome was never in his doghouse and that played no part in their trading him. In the words of Bud Shaw from the Plain Dealer, "Yeah, right." I'm not saying Jerome played no part in his demise here. But that was a childish, agenda-ridden move by Mangini and shouldn't be tolerated by Holmgren. What do you suppose the other players thought about that?
We'll never come up with valid reasoning for a lot of his decisions. It's useless to try since a lot of them are not football based what's-best-for-the-team decisions. "DA gives us the best chance to win", as DA continues to break his own records of futility six games straight.
arrrrgh
#gmstrong
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One thing to keep in mind is that if we'd put Colt in the game last week, Delhomme and Wallace would not be permitted to re-enter.
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While true, that also is just an error in preparation.
And that falls on the HC.
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Quote:
While true, that also is just an error in preparation.
And that falls on the HC.
Error in preparation? how so.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
One thing to keep in mind is that if we'd put Colt in the game last week, Delhomme and Wallace would not be permitted to re-enter.
This is true Adam.
This is only speculation on my behalf, but some of the blame must be put on JD for thinking he was okay to play (if) needed.
I have to go to the VA clinic for different reasons blood work etc.....And
I am always asked the same question and that is; 'what is my level of pain from 1-10'
What I tell them is up to me.
Not that I need to lie, because I am there for my benefit.
Still I could if I were so inclined to.
JD in his mind, I think probably gave the Coaching staff a false sense of security, buy telling them he felt better then he actually did imo.
I have to admit that I have some insecurities about Hillis on Sunday and what (if) he ends up out of action for a while, because he may or may not be 100%.
Then again he is a tough guy and can probably play threw pain.
I played with broken fingers taped together for support and I think a couple of cracked ribs too.
Ah, to be young again 
As far as all the Coach bashing going on here is concerned..... I'll buy what you are all saying.....if and when we have a
#1 WR, pass rush and
a franchise QB.
When are the players accountable? Always!
Play makers make plays on both sides of the ball no matter what the play call is.
Do we have the play makers!
We can't buy an INT.
Can we? Please!
Whenever we had Dixon and Minnie we could still blitz knowing they had their man covered and I think it was also in part due to the philosophy of 'Bump & Run' coverage. This also gives your pass rush more time to develop.
Of coarse there are also some draw backs to that plan.
You could whiff and be beaten short and hot and taken to the house for 6. [Jerry Rice was a player who could make you whiff].
I think game planning from week to week can and will differ some what.
Sometimes from game to game in the division.
There maybe some weeks when things work and sometimes it's a different thing that works or doesn't work the following week.
We have the players to be good in the running game I think with Vickers and Hillis and even the current OL, but without a true passing option on base downs, then you become far too predictable.
If (Big) I were the Coach or OC, then my first goal is to have a QB and WR who can give the offense that other option.
Lacking those two key components, then my hands are pretty much tied behind my back as a play caller.
So give the man a break why don't ya!
Everyone expected our second year second rounders to take a step forward. That has yet to materialize.
On the other hand Stuckey seems to have some ability to be a good Slot/#3 WR.
The BE trade revisited
What is the criteria of a true #1 WR? My answer is;
Someone the other teams game plan to take away threw double coverage and or putting their best CB on. In short
'someone they fear'
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,449 |
Quote:
He seems to make bad decisions like a shoemaker makes shoes, two at a time.
Don't give Harrison even one carry for the entire bengals game, make him stand on the sideline and watch, and then put him in for the last three kneel-down plays to end the game?! Anyone besides me think he had some agenda going on with that decision?
What a way to treat a player. And then in his presser he says Jerome was never in his doghouse and that played no part in their trading him. In the words of Bud Shaw from the Plain Dealer, "Yeah, right." I'm not saying Jerome played no part in his demise here. But that was a childish, agenda-ridden move by Mangini and shouldn't be tolerated by Holmgren. What do you suppose the other players thought about that?
We'll never come up with valid reasoning for a lot of his decisions. It's useless to try since a lot of them are not football based what's-best-for-the-team decisions. "DA gives us the best chance to win", as DA continues to break his own records of futility six games straight.
I agree with you. Mangineous and BD just don't seem to make sound football decisions to me. That fact that they couldn't come up with a more creative offense using both Hillis and Harrison is unbelievable to me. Harrison got the shaft in C-town and I personally hope he makes them look like idiots.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
J/C
I personally from what "i" have sen on film..I do not believe our Wr are "that bad" I don't see it on film
what i do see is two QB (Wallace and Jake) who just won't throw them the ball for whatever reason....Momass and Robo are #2 serviceable receivers at best..the Pats won a Superbowl with 2 nobodies at WR
McNabb won in Philly for over a decade with 2 #2 WR in Philly very similar to what we have...
our receivers have been getting open..but Jake and Seneca won't throw them the ball why..I have no idea...
I have thought since Draft day that from a "talent" standpoint...Colt Mccoy is the best QB on this roster right now and could be the answer...the ONLY thing Colt lacks is experience...he don't lack talent...they don't play chumps down in Texas
I look for McCoy to get our Wide Receivers much more involved in the next few weeks he plays...McCoy will look for our wideouts and actually throw them the ball.
in the preseason...Jake and Seneca did nothing but dump off passes to the TE and backs...they rarely looked for the Wide Receivers...Colt will actually look for our WR for a change and I really think colt is exactly what this team needs...
Win or Lose I think Colt Mccoy will show us more in his game against the Steelers then Wallace and Jake have..in fact..I doubt Wallace or Jake are the starter anymore this year..If Mccoy plays the way I expect him too the next two or 3 games Jake and Wallace won't play no more this year....I have high hopes for McCoy..its not about wins or loses, its about what he shows and he will show more then Jake and Seneca
McCoy has everything you want in a QB:
1. He's Smart
2. has a NFL Arm
3. Is mobile
4. Has Good pocket awareness
5. Hes a winner
# 5 is really important...this kid has won everywhere he has been, pee wee league, grade school, high scool, college...and he will do the same in the NFL
thats my bold prediction...don't be suprised if Colt has a really good game against the Steelers...this is way different then Frye...we have an OL that can give McCoy time to protect him and an actual running game...McCoy will get our Wideouts involved where Wallace and Jake failed...
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