DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jerome Harrison

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One other aspect to this trade to think about.....

Now it is absolutely nothing to bank on....BUT....don't forget about how Hardesty fits into the picture....If Hardesty can come back similar in form to how Jamal Lewis did from tearing both ACL's.....WOW a Hardesty/Hillis combination looks like it could be devastating....so Harrison was probably on his way out anyway.

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I don't understand why people keep bringing up Hardesty....He is a non-factor.

He was hurt in college, and he has gotten hurt here twice already in the short time he has been here...the Hardesty pick was the one pick in the drifat i was ready to throw a beer bottle in my Tv over

Hardesty had ONE decent year in college...thats it..the ONLY thing this guy proved in college is he is hurt...thats pretty much it....

After C J Spiller, the talent at RB in the draft last year was a huge drop off....Comparing Spiller and Hardesty is not even in the same ballpark...Comparing the two would be like comparing a Bentley(Spiller) to a pinto (Hardesty) talent wise there is no comparison...Spiller is better talent wise in every way..

I firmly believe Hardesty would have been available in the next rd,..no one else was going to take a chance on him with his injury history in college...the guy will most likely be a busted pick.,..a mistake by Heckert(it happsn to the best of them every now and then)..if Heckert is smart, he pulls the trigger on another RB in the draft next year..don't count on Hurtesty....you will be dissapointed...

its sad Hurtesty gets hurt in training camp..misses all the time..comes back and bam done for the year in the last preseason game..pathetic...this guy is made of glass until he proves otherwise and i highly doubt he is ever healthy enough to contribute...

I am sorry I am hard on Hardesty, but prove me wrong Montario...you sure didn't in college not to mention you had only 1 year of good play in a college career of mediocrity.....

I have to dissagree a little.

When healthy....Hardesty is every bit as talented as Spiller. He is TOTALLY different type of back....but every bit as talented.

And No...the stats mean nothing nor should they. We are talking "talent" level.

Now on the other hand...if he cant stay healthy he will be as you say a busted pick.

You make some good points on Hardesty ... I can agree especially when you say "prove me wrong" and what your thoughts are "until proven otherwise" ...

I still dont like everyone saying Hardesty was injury prone ... ignore his college career because a LOT of players have an injury history if you look them up (whether it was in college, high school, middle school ... a LOT of guys have had a LOT of breaks bumps bruises and tears ... it doesnt matter if they get over it)

However ... all of that being said ... how is it that Hardesty was (more or less) penciled in as the starter DESPITE missing so much time in camp? If he produces nothing and cant get healthy ... then yes we need another back. But if he can come back after a "redshirt year" as people refer to it for McCoy ... then we can have 2 bruising backs.

All I am saying is while you are right (he has done nothing until he proves it) ... I also say that just because he has been "injured' doesnt mean he is a bum and will never do anything ... hes what ... 22? he has time to earn a starting spot and contribute still lol

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Of the 14 players, 11 did not participate in practice and three were limited.

Defensive linemen Kenyon Coleman, Shaun Rogers and Robaire Smith, running back Peyton Hillis, offensive linemen Alex Mack, John St. Clair and Floyd Womack, tight end Robert Royal and defensive back Nick Sorensen joined Delhomme and Wallace on the sidelines.

Offensive lineman Joe Thomas, defensive back Abram Elam and wide receiver Joshua Cribbs were limited during Wednesday’s practice session.

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So practice was basically all 7-on-7s?

53 players, plus 8 practice squad.

That's 61 players.

11 missed practice.

That's 50 who practiced, 3 of them in a limited capacity. How is that 7 on 7?

Now we did have a lot of OL and DL sit out ..... so that probably gave our backups a lot of time.

how are you a Browns fan? youve bashed every aspect of the team this year...

whatever...

with Hardesty, he's a guy that has talent. If you look at how college players go, they have to audition after high school and then for 4 years theyre working very hard and dont have time to heal. then they get to senior year and then theyre going to the combine, pro days, senior bowl and countless other evaluation stressful activities.

This is the first chance Hardesty has had to heal. He can finally get the rest this year that he needs to come back and become a productive player. He will be more healthy next year than he ever has been. period.

Hardesty as talented as Spiller? No way

Hardesty Ran a 4.49 40 yard dash

Spiller ran a 4.27

Spiller was showed to have the fastest "top end speed" of all the backs in the draft....Think "Chris Johnson" he will never get caught from behind...if Spiller isn't as fast as Chris Johnson in top end speed, he is very close.

Speed KILLS in the NFL and Hardesty sure doesn;t have it,

Spiller is a better receiver out of the backfield
Spiller is faster
Spiller is more elusive
Spiller could "challenge" Cribbs here for kick and punt returns
Spiller is more shifty
Spiller is better at breaking tackles (for his size)

Yes Spiller is "very good" at breaking tackles considering he is only 196 pounds...and he will get a bit bigger im sure...

This is not mention Spiller has over 7, 588 All-Purpose Yards..meaing he is good at "all" phases of the game

from a "talent" standpoint, its not even close..Speed kills...Spiller has more of it then Hardesty..alot more...See Chris Johnson best back in the league is also the fastest back in the league...

Hardesty is nothing more then a sem-battering ram..a role player, Spiller has the potential to be a homerun hitter, a Chris Johnson guy that breaks off an 80 yard run wsith no one able to catch him to bust a game wide open

Yes I am partial to Spiller, I wanted him because this team lacks "PLAYMAKERS" on both sides of the ball and Spiller is a playmaker...we needed a playmaker....not to mention he would be a great backup for Cribbs or could even share and maybe even take some of Cribbs punt and kick return duties, throw the kid the ball in the flats and let him work...the dude is a playmaker and he is slowly getting his chances in Buffallo..hes got a return for a TD already..they are slowly working him in with Jackson...

As much as this team loves Cribbs they would have loved Spiller just as much..he would be called a Superhero two..him and Cribbs could have been the dynamic duo

Spiller reminds me of a young Eric Metcalf with more speed...anyone telling me they don't miss Metcalf?

Ive actually read something recently. .. and I'll see if I can find it ... based upon how Rookies in the NFL usually "shutdown" by the 12th to 14th week. It isn't because they are any less tough or prepared or hardworking ... it's because they only get an average of a week or two off from the summer camp before their last year until when they do shut down. (Summer camp, last College season, prep for Bowl Games, Prep for Combine, prep for Pro Days, Draft, Prep for rookie OTAs, prep for mini camps, prep for NFL camp, NFL training camp/preseason, season.

When they figure it all out .. most players get about 1 week between the bowl season and the combine preparation, and about 1 week after the draft to "be lazy" then its time to go to work. Some teams that dont go to bowls get a little more rest .. thats about it.

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how are you a Browns fan? youve bashed every aspect of the team this year...

whatever...

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I have been a Browns fan since the 70's thank you. I love this team. just because im critical of what I "perceive" as a mistake don't make me any less of a fan.

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with Hardesty, he's a guy that has talent. If you look at how college players go, they have to audition after high school and then for 4 years theyre working very hard and dont have time to heal. then they get to senior year and then theyre going to the combine, pro days, senior bowl and countless other evaluation stressful activities.

This is the first chance Hardesty has had to heal. He can finally get the rest this year that he needs to come back and become a productive player. He will be more healthy next year than he ever has been. period.

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Excuses...Excuses....Hardesty has just been made of glass..this guy was hardly ever healthy in college...they have a word for guys like Hardesty...

wait for it....

Snakebitten!

I'd say odds are good that Hardesty don't contribute next year either...I will be suprised if Hardesty makes it though trainign camp and preseason..given his history..the guy just can't stay healthy...

Hardesty = Courtney Brown until he proves otherwise..until he proves it...he is the Browns New Mr.Glass.

Welcome Hardesty to the Title of Mr. Glass. Such glorious guys such as Courtney Brown and Lee Suggs have held this title before you. They are pulling for you buddy

if Heckert likes his job..he better draft another RB next year..high..like say 1st or 2nd rdish...if he relies on Hurtesty..oh boy....

just clickin' south...

I'm ok with the trade. Something about Harrison had him in a doghouse he couldn't get out of. It's best he move on. But I also believe this has Mangini written all over it because he hasn't treated Harrison right all season and likely wanted him gone. Kudos to Heckert for getting a big back who can spell Hillis.

I think one of the things that had the coaches disappointed in him as his frequent injuries. I'm not about to argue about that, but the facts are that he seemed to get injured at some very inopportune times and I think that caused the staff to be wary of counting on him.

But that's just one issue. There must have been others. Dude sets records at the end of the season but we draft a big running back anyway. I can understand wanting a big bruising back. We didn't have one and this is the AFC North. But that automatically demoted Harrison from his starting role. There was absolutely no tact used by Mangini as he lavished praise on Hardesty from day one and completely ignored the RB that saved his job at the end of last season.

Hillis then replaced Hardesty when he went down but unless I'm mistaken there was also an injury issue with Harrison at that time too. I could be wrong about that.

So we go into the season starting Hillis who runs like a prison escapee. Gotta love him. But we didn't even use Harrison like most teams use a third-down back. We just ran him out there on occasion to give Hilles some blow and ran the same plays Hillis was running. Attack is right when he says this staff has no idea how to use a smaller back.

And one move, which I felt was intentionally meant to embarrass, humiliate and deflate Harrison was to have him stand on the sideline and watch the entire bengals game with no carries and then trot him out for the final three plays in the victory formation. Just put yourself in that situation as a player, linger on the thought for a minute, and decide how you would take that. Probably not well.

Surely a head coach has better methods of how to get a point across. After seeing this I doubt it's the only instance whereby he was treated wrongly. We don't see anything but the games. And that particular instance was probably the tip of the ice burg. It's been said of Harrison as a negative when he publicly said he didn't know what his role was. He shouldn't have said that. But did any of us know what is role was?

Mangini was making a point to Harrison in a most ignorant way. You'd have thought Harrison insulted his wife or something. Is that any way for a head coach to treat any player? I don't think so. If he wanted to make a point he should have sacked up and spoke with Harrison in a strong and deliberate manner. Instead he shows him up and deflates him in front of his teammates and basically says to him, "FU, I'm the boss". The rest of the players watched that and I'm sure more than a couple wondered wtf?. That is, unless Jerome was one hell of an ass, constantly questioning the head coach and being a locker room cancer. But we've never heard anything about it.

One mark of a good coach is to understand the psyche of individual players and know how to get the best out of each. So humiliation must have been decided as the best way to motivate Jerome.

I'm not sure there's a precedence for that sort of treatment.

So Harrison is gone to a team who will know how to use him and best of all for him is he doesn't have to spend his every day wondering why he's being treated like crap by the guy who wouldn't even be a head coach today if it weren't for his lights out running at the end of last season.

Enter Bell. Regardless of what somebody says, in his two years in Denver with 163 carries in 20 games he fumbled twice losing one. So he's really not the fumbling machine somebody remembers him as.

With his size he should be fit here pretty well and be a continuation of Hillis, (no way he's as tough as, nobody is), and allow us to carry on with our power running game if he is used correctly.

All said I believe it was a great move for Harrison due to the circumstances with his head coach and a good move for Bell who will get more work here than he got in Philly.

I feel a bit better about our running game today than I did Monday when I knew Hillis was injured and Harrison was being ineffective.

i dont disagree with what you have said...but at some point there has to be some kind of positive to find somewhere...


Looking at Hardesty, again he has been snakebitten...but there are a number of guys that were injured in college that arent now in the NFL. Adrian Peterson and Sam Bradford are two such guys that have been snakebitten with injuries and theyve turned out okay to this point.

However, Hardesty has gotten hurt again...but is it hard to see that this is the first chance in a long time hes had to heal. Now he has a chance and gets a clean slate, yea its a bummer for this year, but it may turn out better for next year. If he gets hurt next year, then yep we have a bust, but its one injury and now hes got a chance to heal and get his body NFL ready.

Knight what do you mean by his "history." Im not bashing I just want to know. Some guys have referenced his "history" but as far as I remember he hurt his knee once .. and hurt his ankle (which happens ... alot especially if you QB for the Browns apparently) ... and then had one operation to scope out the scar tissue. He comes to camp and gets banged up (which happens to players on every team, every year) and then has a freak injury with his acl... he has a good shot of being hurt in the future ... but he also has a good shot that it may not be an injury for another 3 to 5 years ...

I just want to know your reasoning on why he is a bust already (more or less) in your eyes?

Thanks for taking care of that.

Spiller has as good of running technique/form as anyone I've ever seen. Watch him run -- Its a thing of beauty.

Psu24:

Here is what im talking with history

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Suffered multiple leg injuries over his career, including a torn ACL (2005), ankle sprains (2007) and a stress fracture (2008).
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/567373

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So this is his second major knee injury already not to mention the other problems he has had with his legs...This is one of those guys you look at coming out and you say:

"Yes Hardesty has some talent, however the tires are nearly flat...this guy is close to being finished"

which he is...This guy would have to pull a Jamal Lewis and I just don't see that happening...what Jamal Lewis did was rare...it just doesn't happen on a regular basis...Jamal Lewis was the exception not the norm...Odds are against Hardesty being able to ever really help us with these kinds of injuries..I hope im wrong...but two repaired knees and other things considered..no way...the guys tires were nearly flat on draft day and they most likely are now...

Heckert better get another RB in the draft..say 2nd rdish..if Hardesty does by some miracle come back and pan out great! But I wouldn't bet the farm on that...no way...

I agree with you on Hardesty's injury history. RBs with injury histories are always a huge risk.

However, you really need to stop bringing up Spiller to 'support' your arguments here. You are really undermining yourself as you are ignoring what is happening on the field with him so far this year. He has plenty of time to catch-on and show he was worth the pick, but you are beating a dead horse right now.

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No one knows besides Mangini, which is odd since he basically saved Mangini's job, dont ya think? I'm not ready to say it quite yet, but that hints at an ego problem with Mangini. The which was the rap on him before...hope thats not true...

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Some of you Dawgs need to read a little better. It has been mentioned several times on this thread that RAC & Savage BOTH as well as Geni & co. had a problem with JH. Nobody used him like they thought they should. Why? I think he had a bad Attitude. You know it was not the Team when both FO's refused to play his game. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that. JH just did not want to put in the work.

Also anyone who questions Spiller



Spiller's KO return for a TD against the Patriots (a pretty good football team) he breaks tackles, and shows his flat out speed...this is just a "glimpse" atleast you can see the glimpse there with him..I still say Buffallo is not uing him right, despite his limited carries and catches with 2 TD to go with it..

Spiller is a player...his light will really turn on soon and when it does..look out

With the way your riding Spiller's jock, he will be worn down in no time at all

ok ok ok I am done talking about Spiller now

sheesh was that really necessary?

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That's 50 who practiced, 3 of them in a limited capacity. How is that 7 on 7?

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With 4 OL out and 3 DL out, I was talking about 7-on-7 drills, where you have the center, QB, and 5 skill guys v. LBs and DBs.

Not that we only had 14 guys.

We have 9 OL and 7 DL on the regular roster, and 2 OL and 2 DL on the practice squad.

Even missing 4 OL and 3 DL we have enough to run complete practices. Maybe not the ideal mix with the starting OL .... and certainly getting McCoy reps with Mack is a concern .... but I think they can still run practice as usual.

Ok Im fine with that. What I dont like is how some people generalized and just said he has an injury history of 4 or 5 injuries ... without ever bothering to check that a few times he had "surgery" was nothing more than a scope.

Im cool with you checking his durability too ... but a few guys who come to mind with a significant injury that caused them to be questioned leading up to the draft as running backs in addition to Jamal were Willis McGahee (how can anyone from Ohio or Florida forget that), Adrian Peterson, Michael Bush from Oakland, Brian Westbrook missed an entire season at Villanova, Javid Best had injury problems (thought mostly concussions) DeShaun Foster had an injury plagued college career , Frank Gore had multiple surgeries (2 major knee surgeries) in College ...

I mean Im not saying that any of these names guarantee Montario will ever even touch the field ... but just becuase he has had some bad luck doesnt mean he is a bust after playing in roughly 5 snaps of a preseason game ...

And you also cant argue (as good as he is) that CJ Spiller was the pick ... becuase he wasnt available when we drafted Hardesty. Even if spiller was the one of the highest guys on our board ... Haden was at least 1 spot ahead of him .. and frankly Im finally proud that we have a GM who was willing to stick to the board.

Imagine if we would have tried to get cute on draft day and come out with a few late round players, CJ Spiller in the first, Colt mccoy in the second (where everyone thought we would take him) ... and no help in the secondary, or oline ..

Can we get their OC? Sounds like he got more out of Steptoe than we did.

Bell for OC. Seems to have a grasp of the game. Or my mother maybe. But some different mix to get less than a dozen in the box.

why couldn't the coaches have found a way to use Harrison?

I still can't understand that......

thats fair Pstu24...totally fair on your part.

My reasoning behind Spiller is i really believe the Spiller should have been our pick over Haden....not because Haden is a bad player, but because RB was a question mark for us.....a big one...this has nothing to do with hindsight..i stated beofre the season started that RB is a big time question area..i was not sold and i am still not sold on who we have..Hillis is a piece, but we need more...a lot more


I like Hillis...but his running style can't be relied on for 16 games...he will get too banged up, but I love Hillis as a palyer and his running style and think he can be a big part of a tandem with another bona fide back.

its questionable if Haden was rated higher then Spiller, the NFL.com Draft Chart has spiller graded higher then Haden on their Grade Chart...although it is slight, Spiller was still graded higher

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2010/tracker#dt-by-round-input:1

also, We need playmakers...we have 1 playmaker on this team..Cribbs..thats it...I thought Spiller was our best shot at getting a bona fide playmaker since no QB was on the board.

We also traded for Sheldon Brown and I was comfortable with Brown + Wright this year...you must remmeber...if not not allegations about Wright at USC he would have been a 1st rd corner in his own right..he started as a freshman in a very good USC football program..when we added Brown...drafting Haden just didn't make sense right now and it still doesn't.

The TJ Ward pick i was fine with...Safety was a need pick for us...RB was also a need pick for us and thats why I am peeved about us passing on Spiller...Spiller would have started here day one, and would have most likely faired better here because we have a better OL

Spiller also can return kicks or punts so he could give Josh Cribbs a break and allow us to use Cribbs more in other areas like the WildCat, WR, etc...perhaps Spiller could return Kicks and Cribbs Punts so Cribbs doesn't get so spent.

Spiller can do so many things so many things, he helps us in 4 areas rather then one:

1. He can catch
2. He ran run outside or inside
3. He can return kicks
4. He cna return punts

what can Haden do besides playing corner?

How many times is Haden going to have the ball "in his hands" during a game?

spiller as Rb is going to get the ball in his hands every sunday with a chance to do something with it...

you have to draft impact players in the Top 10..Cb is NOT an impact player position

QB, RB, DE/rush OLB, LT, and Safety are impact positions...

TJ Ward has made more of an impact on this team this year then Haden has..in reality Ward is farther along and so far Ward looks like the better pick (I am just being honest and taking my Brown colored glasses off)

Ward wasn't burnt for a 33 yard TD by a receiver on opening day who taosted Haden on his first ever NFL TD pass

Its still early for Haden, but so far..Ward looks to be the better player of the two

now granted Spiller hasn't tore it up in Buffalo yet either, but he hasn't had many opportunities because the Bills are fazing him in slowly...however he is still averaging over 4 yards per carry running the ball, he has only caught 13 passes but has a TD, and he has a KO return for a TD the kid is making the most of his limited opportunities (Scoring TD)

not scoring TD is a big reason we can't win games..I think Spiller helps us there...

We could have rode with Brown and Wright this year...maybe added a kid from the 3rd rd to play corner and developed someone and solved our Rb problems here with Spiller so that if/when we do draft our 1st rd QB..he has a real bona fide NFL RB behind him...Sam BRadford has Stephen Jackson behind him...I doubt he fares as well here...we don't have a bona fide back

Hillis is a good rotation guy...a guy that can carry the rock 10 times and catch a few balls...but his running style will lead to his body taking a beating...Spiller could carry 20 times a game and catch 5 balls a game..not to mention he is a pretty good blocker as well so we don't have to switch backs all the time

Spiller means we can throw out of running formations and run out of passing formations without changing personel and keep the D guiessing all game what were going to...that could and maybe would help Daboll alot (as much as i don't like daboll)

again these are just my opinions and how I see things....

YMMV

regardless..I really hope we address RB in the draft next year..its still a big ?

ok so from reading over all of your post I am starting to get the hint that maybe....there might be a slight chance that you like Spiller? And that you might not approve of the Hardesty pick.

Ok I just wanted to make sure I was picking up what you was putting down!

im starting to think that we have someone who is known to hang out underneath bridges and demand a toll to cross......anyone else getting that feeling?

I would also argue that while a top ranked running back could be comparable to a top ranked corner ... (I mean ... depending on what type of style team you are ... its a toss up of taking adrian peterson or chris johnson or nnamdi asomugha or darrell revis ...) I truly think that you can find a lot of really good or at least serviceable backs throughout the draft (into the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th rounds as we saw with harrison) ... but corners who can actually play the game may be a lot harder to come by ...

Dont people usually quote the keys to the franchise as QB, WR, LT, CB, DE/OLB (depending on the system .. as long as its a pass rusher) .. .and I thought the next 2 on the list would be either another CB or S (depending on style of defense) and then Center as 7 ...

At the end of the day its all about preference though ...

I personally have QB, LT, Pass rusher, wide receiver, cornerback, wide receiver.

It does not matter to me as long as the draft choice becomes a productive player.

We can rehash Joe Thomas versus A. Peterson as well. Both were fine selections. The trade for Quinn was not. We would have had Felix Jones and Arron Sears were selected for Quinn.

Haden looks like a fine selection.