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Which reporter on STO said there was trouble brewing.. and yeah,, it matters who said it.
I do believe there has had to be discussions.. No question.. I bet some were heated... But I don't know what it means...
With Haskell in the house,, Holmgren has his interim coach so if he really wanted Mangini gone, I suspect he'd be gone already..
But I don't believe, having been a coach for so many years, that Holmgren would hold Mangini in low regard given the amount of injuries the team has sustained in key spots.
I suppose it's possible, but I do have some doubts....
Just saying.
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The guy that was on STO last night with Bruce Drennean...short hair glasses, was taking phone calls...that guy..he was not and old guy...he is the one who said it he said those rumors are grumbling...
Last edited by Knight_Of_Brown; 10/20/10 11:36 AM.
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His name is Matt Loede, he has been on Drennan's show about 3 times now.
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NRTU
Does starting McCoy preclude drafting another QB?
I don't think so.
x2.
Starting McCoy will give you a better idea on whether or not you need to draft another QB. And if we end up with a franchise QB plus a quality starter McCoy (if that's what he turns out to be) then all the better.
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Yes Frency thats his name!
He just said along the lines I guess the two have clashed some...I would bet they were heated considering Holmgren's longtime standing as a coach...
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So, explain to me why Holmgren couldn't just inject more of his offensive philosophy into the Browns and continue to allow Mangini to direct the defense?
Because you can only have 1 Head Coach...You can't name Mangini Head Coach and then allow Holmgren to run the entire Offensive Side of the ball...it will cause a rift with the team, the team won't see Mangini as the Coach they would see Holmgren as the coach.
The Head Coach has to be "the guy" in terms of coaching the team. The Head Coach has to be allowed to hire his own coordinators and coach the team "his way" no way such a scenario could work allowing Holmgren to run the O while Mangini does the D and Mangini still named Head Coach...no way...you can only have 1 Head coach...not two...
Holmgren would be better off hiring his own guy...his own guy will run want Holmgren wants anyways (WCO) because "his guy" will most likely be someone him and/or Heckert have worked with before...it makes perfect sense...the FO, HC, and GM have to all have the same vision...I don't think Holmgren, Heckert, and Mangini share the same vision for the team....not only on Offense but Defense...
Holmgren and Heckert BOTH came from teams that ran the 4-3..Packers(When Holmgren was there) Seahawks (When Holmgren was there) and the Eagles (Under Heckert/Reid) Many are overlooking Defense and Holmgren and Heckert have their own views on Defense as well and those views have favored more towards the 4-3 set up in their perspective careers.
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His name is Matt Loede, he has been on Drennan's show about 3 times now.
Well, I stand corrected,, it doesn't matter who said it since I'm not familar with Matt Loede 
Still, I don't think it means anything yet.. I really think that's wishful thinking on KoB's part.
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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He was a SR at Texas
Absolutely, 4 year starter too.
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most successful QB
100% correct. He also had an incredible completion percentage
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pro style O
Then you throw this beauty out there.
That was, in no way, shape, or form, a pro style offense in Texas. Maybe, MAYBE his first year there, but not his second and certainly not his third and fourth year starting.
Texas had no running game and relied on short throws and a spread offense of screens and timing passes. Only very rarely did he ever go down field.
I remember that when they drafted him, the first thing mentioned was the fact that McCoy need to learn how to take a snap from under center. That's incredible. It's also the reason Holmgren wanted him to "redshirt" this year, because he was a project.
You can talk all you want about how you expect more *and whatever...the only thing that will ever make you happy is perfection* and everything like that, but you have to have reason and perspective about these situations.
you had a good run Hank.
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So, explain to me why Holmgren couldn't just inject more of his offensive philosophy into the Browns and continue to allow Mangini to direct the defense?
Because you can only have 1 Head Coach...You can't name Mangini Head Coach and then allow Holmgzen to run the entire Offensive Side of the ball...it will cause a rift with the team, the team won't see Mangini as the Coach they would see Holmgren as the coach.
The Head Coach has to be "the guy" in terms of coaching the team. The Head Coach has to be allowed to hire his own coordinators and coach the team "his way" no way such a scenario could work allowing Holmgren to run the O while Mangini does the D and Mangini still named Head Coach...no way...you can only have 1 Head coach...not two...
Holmgren would be better off hiring his own guy...his own guy will run want Holmgren wants anyways (WCO) because "his guy" will most likely be someone him and/or Heckert have worked with before...it makes perfect sense...the FO, HC, and GM have to all have the same vision...I don't think Holmgren, Heckert, and Mangini share the same vision for the team....not only on Offense but Defense...
Holmgren and Heckert BOTH came from teams that ran the 4-3..Packers(When Holmgren was there) Seahawks (When Holmgren was there) and the Eagles (Under Heckert/Reid) Many are overlooking Defense and Holmgren and Heckert have their own views on Defense as well and those views have favored more towards the 4-3 set up in their perspective careers.
there are plenty of HC's that focus on one side of the ball. Holmgren was one of them during his days. Gruden another if we want to talk Holmgren disciples (the TB defense didn't change one bit when Gruden came aboard, he merely adopted his offense and let Monte run the defense completely). Dungy is another coach (he did defense and let Peyton basically run the offense) if we want to split off that tree.
it is VERY possible to run the offense and defense separately. ulitmately, you need 1 HC because he has to run the game management aspects on gameday. and you want a good communication relationship between whoever is running both sides of the ball. but, they can be somewhat separate.
also, to be CLEAR: I am not suggesting Holmgren is the OC while Mangini is the DC w/ Ryan and HC. I am suggesting Holmgren/Haskell help integrate more of their offensive inputs to our OC (Daboll or whoever it is next year) and let Mangini/Ryan run the 3-4 defense.
#gmstrong
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I am suggesting Holmgren/Haskell help integrate more of their offensive inputs to our OC (Daboll or whoever it is next year) and let Mangini/Ryan run the 3-4 defense.
if Eric Mangini needs Mike Holmgren to "hold his hand" and design his O gameplans for him and his incompentent OC then He has no business being a coach here to begin with.
Holmgren is the President...he has more duties then just calling gameplans...if it comes to that, Holmgren would be better off taking over himself...
the fact that Mangini has hung on to Daboll this long (Who is clearly worse then Mo Carthin was) is telling of just how this guy isn't it.
Daboll is a terrible OC...terrible...
now I will say this...If Mangini would show a sign of goodwill and "can" Daboll at the by week, that would go a long way in me easing up on him...Daboll is in way over his head...if its Haskill calling the plays great, I'd settle for Carl Smith atleast Carl Smith has experience calling plays...
Daboll is in way over his head..
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I've been kicking around the whole start McCoy thing every day since the gun sounded at the end of the 4th qtr last Sunday.
I'm sure that from Colts perspective, he's going to feel that he's earned the right to compete for the starting job, and I'm not so sure I can argue against that. However, with the extremely unfortunate news that we lost Pashos.. I'd like to know what the right side of our line looks like before I render any judgments on who the starter is.
If some of the rumors are true that Seneca and fracture are being said in the same sentence, then we have no choice but to start Colt. If not, then I go back to what I said before.. who's on the right side of the OL?
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I've been kicking around the whole start McCoy thing every day since the gun sounded at the end of the 4th qtr last Sunday.
I'm sure that from Colts perspective, he's going to feel that he's earned the right to compete for the starting job, and I'm not so sure I can argue against that. However, with the extremely unfortunate news that we lost Pashos.. I'd like to know what the right side of our line looks like before I render any judgments on who the starter is.
If some of the rumors are true that Seneca and fracture are being said in the same sentence, then we have no choice but to start Colt. If not, then I go back to what I said before.. who's on the right side of the OL?
I think Lauvao gets his first start and Womack to RT.
I haven't heard anything about a 'fracture'?
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If some of the rumors are true that Seneca and fracture are being said in the same sentence, then we have no choice but to start Colt.
What do you mean? We have the great Delhomme!
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Second, Holmgren cares more about how the offense is run. Mangini cares more about how the defense is run (by their previous backgrounds). So, explain to me why Holmgren couldn't just inject more of his offensive philosophy into the Browns and continue to allow Mangini to direct the defense?
Uhhhh...for the time being lets just say Mangini is being allowed to do it his way,however everything thats being done isn't being done right.
And If the two are clashing ,it's because Holmgrem knows more about offense than Gini does.and certainly Daboll..I suspect the playcalling/personnel packages are the issue.
And maybe why certain players aren't being used.
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I am suggesting Holmgren/Haskell help integrate more of their offensive inputs to our OC (Daboll or whoever it is next year) and let Mangini/Ryan run the 3-4 defense.
if Eric Mangini needs Mike Holmgren to "hold his hand" and design his O gameplans for him and his incompentent OC then He has no business being a coach here to begin with.
first, i'm not saying Holmgren/Haskell design the weekly gameplans. They help coordinate the direction of the offense in the offseason, then provide inputs when asked during the season.
but, this seems our disagreement is bigger than just that. we have a fundamental difference in how we think the team should operate.
1. you believe that people need hard set fundamental roles and that they should handle everything without outside interaction.
2. i believe you should utilize every available asset/resource in order to get the job done even if it is not in those predefined roles.
both are valid business models, but I happen to prefer the 2nd option.
#gmstrong
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The only good thing is that you have not made one documented, factual statement, so you are firing blanks.
Huh?
At times he looked poised. Fact.
At times he looked skittish. Fact.
He threw some nice passes. Fact.
He threw some dumb passes. Fact.
Perhaps it's because we've completely non-competitive for awhile ... but what is the deal with the homers this year? A lot of folks rightly predicted we'd win 2 to 5 games this year ... got their heads bitten off. Currently, I'm pointing out that Colt's performance wasn't great, and wasn't awful, and I'm getting my head bit off ...
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I agree with you Phil.
Colt showed some good and some bad...I think he showed enough good to deserve a better look...I think he could bethe answer if we add more pieces around him...and let him grow...
However Colt still has growing to do...he is rookie..but he did show promise...he showed us more then Quinn did, and he looked better then Jake by a mile...
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You have taken a lot of time and space on this thread villifying Colt McCoy for no reason than your own hatred for him. It's not that I don't understand what you are saying and what you are trying to do.
What it is is I DON'T CARE!
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With the Bills likely to draft ahead of us and 49ers possibly to draft ahead of us, its unlikely we'll have a shot at Luck and maybe won't have a shot at Locker. I still say we go get AJ Green. He looks like his floor is Brandon Lloyd and his ceiling is Reggie Wayne/Ochocinco.
come April there could be a difficult choice to make if a possible franchise QB is still on the board.
will we be in a position any time soon to take a franchise QB if we miss out this year?
We have other needs, a WR and a pass rusher are just two.
BTW, there have been a few injuries on the OL and they have not crumbled.
That is encouraging. Seems we have some depth 
Last edited by Line Judge; 10/21/10 06:41 AM.
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I say we pass on QB and get guys in here that can make just about any QB look good.. particularly addressing the right side of the O-line will do that..
If Lavaou shows something, and I think he will finally get his shot, that means we just need a RT, and maybe draft a later round Guard to backup, and maybe later replace Steiny (who I think has never been a favorite of Gini's)
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With the Bills likely to draft ahead of us and 49ers possibly to draft ahead of us, its unlikely we'll have a shot at Luck and maybe won't have a shot at Locker. I still say we go get AJ Green. He looks like his floor is Brandon Lloyd and his ceiling is Reggie Wayne/Ochocinco.
come April there could be a difficult choice to make if a possible franchise QB is still on the board.
will we be in a position any time soon to take a franchise QB if we miss out this year?
We have other needs, a WR and a pass rusher are just two.
BTW, there have been a few injuries on the OL and they have not crumbled.
That is encouraging. Seems we have some depth
Don't know where we are gonna end up picking, don't know who will be there when we pick, but if the Brain Trust really believes that a Franchise QB is there when we pick, they almost have to go after him.
Having said that, Colt has a chance in the next few games to show us if he's the Real McCoy.
The best thing that could happen to the Browns is that McCoy shows us he's the QB to lead this team into the future.
That way, we could avoid another 1st round QB that may or may not make it and instead we could focus on other pieces of the puzzle.
I know that a few folks will not want to see that, mostly because of some odd dislike for McCoy.. not exactly sure what's not to like about the kid..
High Ankle sprains are not an injury that guys come back from quickly. I suspect that that will cause both Delhomme and Wallace to miss several more games.. that leaves the door open for McCoy to show us his stuff.
Dispite what some are saying about McCoy, he did indeed have a decent showing last sunday. he was not the reason we lost that game but he didn't spark a win either. he seemed to hold up against one of the toughest D's out there,,, and held his own.
He's got another test this week. We'll see.
It might help if he had some more weapons, but let's see what he can do with what he's got.
I'm anxious to see how this plays out.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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With the Bills likely to draft ahead of us and 49ers possibly to draft ahead of us, its unlikely we'll have a shot at Luck and maybe won't have a shot at Locker. I still say we go get AJ Green. He looks like his floor is Brandon Lloyd and his ceiling is Reggie Wayne/Ochocinco.
come April there could be a difficult choice to make if a possible franchise QB is still on the board.
will we be in a position any time soon to take a franchise QB if we miss out this year?
We have other needs, a WR and a pass rusher are just two.
BTW, there have been a few injuries on the OL and they have not crumbled.
That is encouraging. Seems we have some depth
If a new CBA get done and rookie salaries are "fixed" -- my fear is we pick this kid and he decides, he don't wanna play in Cleveland.
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Quote:
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With the Bills likely to draft ahead of us and 49ers possibly to draft ahead of us, its unlikely we'll have a shot at Luck and maybe won't have a shot at Locker. I still say we go get AJ Green. He looks like his floor is Brandon Lloyd and his ceiling is Reggie Wayne/Ochocinco.
come April there could be a difficult choice to make if a possible franchise QB is still on the board.
will we be in a position any time soon to take a franchise QB if we miss out this year?
We have other needs, a WR and a pass rusher are just two.
BTW, there have been a few injuries on the OL and they have not crumbled.
That is encouraging. Seems we have some depth
If a new CBA get done and rookie salaries are "fixed" -- my fear is we pick this kid and he decides, he don't wanna play in Cleveland.
Well, if the rookie cap is put in place, it won't matter where he wants to play, the pay will be the same......so money won't have anything to do with it.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I didn't say it did.
I said, what if the kid decides he doesn't want to play in Cleveland.
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Who do you mean by "this kid?" I can't tell from your post. And why do you have that concern about that specific player? Any guy the Browns draft that high, they're going to have a face-to-face with him... maybe more than one. I don't think they're going to try and pull a Philip Rivers.
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I didn't say it did.
I said, what if the kid decides he doesn't want to play in Cleveland.
That can happen anytime.. Look back to when John Elway was drafted by the then Baltimore Colts... He didn't want to play there and said so openly.. Baltimore traded him to Denver,, the rest as they say, is history.
Same with Eli Manning.. San Diego Drafted him and he made it clear he didn't want to play there.. They immediately traded him to NY and the rest is history.
I'm sure there are other examples but I don't remember any off hand..
The point I was attempting to make (and failed at) we didn't have a rookie cap when Elway or Manning was drafted,,, and it didn't matter.
Money won't be an issue so the cap being there doesn't matter. If a kid doesn't want to play for cleveland.,.,, he doesn't want to play.. that's it.
Now, maybe what you are saying is, that a kid may not want to play here but without a cap,, hey,, make them pay.. With a cap.. he says it isn't worth it and wants out..
In that case, we do just what SD did with Manning. we draft him and wait for offers.. We could end up with a bunch of picks and guys in trade (ala Dallas and Minnesota in 1989 or was it 1988)
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Who do you mean by "this kid?" I can't tell from your post. And why do you have that concern about that specific player? Any guy the Browns draft that high, they're going to have a face-to-face with him... maybe more than one. I don't think they're going to try and pull a Philip Rivers.
Sorry I wasn't very clear on this,....any pick we make, with the salary playing field having been leveled, then provides an impetus for the player to start asking,..." Do I want to go there ? " Now, if he doesn't, he doesn't play anywhere else either, AND we have FAIAP, lost a draft pick. That wouldn't be good, and hopefully would not happen with the mentioned pre-draft arrangement/discussion, face-to-face, with said player.
Daman is right --the money won't be an issue because it won't be allowed to be,...then " the kid " makes a decision based on whatever his other protocol is.
If bigger money were to be the only issue that makes him report, then is that the kid we wanted anyway ?
I just don't want my team to be the next victim of a Rivers-Manning-Elway, deal, and in the process, have wasted a pick.
(I also view the draft as an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, btw.)
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I can see that happening.. Kid (any kid) says,, hey, Ok, I gotta live with the money.., nothing I can do about that. so if I gotta take that money, then I'm damn well gonna decide from whom.
Then the kid refuses to sign, yells and stomps his feet and says I will never sign with Cleveland (as an example) so Cleveland has a choice,, Draft the kid and trade his rights to whoever will give them the most for him or Trade the pick to whoever gives us the most or skip the kid, pick someone else...
Here is the thing.. we have holmgren,, he's recognized throughout the league as a QB Maker.. A young QB would be nuts to pass on us as long as he's reasonably sure that Holmgren will have more than just an arms length role in his development.
That's the way to sell it to a young QB.. I think...
BUT,, what difference does it make if it's a QB? Why can't a top 5 DE or LB or WR say the same thing? I guess it would hold less weight than a franchise QB, but still,, I could see that happening with positions other than a QB..
Just thinking out loud here.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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J/C
It's really no different than it has been for 50 years.
Cleveland has never been viewed as the garden spot in anything.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I can see that happening.. Kid (any kid) says,, hey, Ok, I gotta live with the money.., nothing I can do about that. so if I gotta take that money, then I'm damn well gonna decide from whom.
Then the kid refuses to sign, yells and stomps his feet and says I will never sign with Cleveland (as an example) so Cleveland has a choice,, Draft the kid and trade his rights to whoever will give them the most for him or Trade the pick to whoever gives us the most or skip the kid, pick someone else...
Here is the thing.. we have holmgren,, he's recognized throughout the league as a QB Maker.. A young QB would be nuts to pass on us as long as he's reasonably sure that Holmgren will have more than just an arms length role in his development.
That's the way to sell it to a young QB.. I think...
BUT,, what difference does it make if it's a QB? Why can't a top 5 DE or LB or WR say the same thing? I guess it would hold less weight than a franchise QB, but still,, I could see that happening with positions other than a QB..
Just thinking out loud here.
Well said,...my out-loud thoughts too.
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I have seen very few draftees that said they didn't want to go to Cleveland..the FA's say it because of the way the FO has handled players..but I don't think we'll see any of that mess happening.
Anyway since this thread is about McCoy,my thought is continue to start him until Wallace is ready to come back..forget about JD ,he's done IMO.
Just to repeat something I said,if he's burning up and playing good ball don't take him out.
People have to remember this is not a contraversie,he's playing because of default.
But it does show me who is finished and thats JD.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 10/21/10 12:37 PM.
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J/C
It's really no different than it has been for 50 years.
Cleveland has never been viewed as the garden spot in anything.
True enough,., but for the right buck,, it could be
I think the crux of what Ooorah was saying is that "FOR THE FIXED ROOKIE CAP" would some of these kids consider Cleveland...
Maybe it's just me, but I'd consider being drafted by anybody to be an honor,, but I clearly don't think like these kids coming out of college today
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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Legend
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I gotta agree with you on all of that AD..
I don't remember a draft pick saying he didn't want to come to cleveland..
JD seems done.
Wallace ain't starting anytime soon
McCoy is in by Default so let's see what we got
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
J/C
It's really no different than it has been for 50 years.
Cleveland has never been viewed as the garden spot in anything.
True enough,., but for the right buck,, it could be
I think the crux of what Ooorah was saying is that "FOR THE FIXED ROOKIE CAP" would some of these kids consider Cleveland...
Maybe it's just me, but I'd consider being drafted by anybody to be an honor,, but I clearly don't think like these kids coming out of college today
That's what would worry me -- that a kid wouldn't see it from that point of view, and thereby give a garden spot like Cleveland the shoulder shrug,....
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Maybe they can do something like MLB does that compensates the team if they don't sign one of their top picks. In the first round (I think just top 15 spots in MLB work this way then it's different after that) if the player doesn't sign the team gets compensated in the draft the following year. Say you have the #7 pick in 2010 and he doesn't sign. You would get the #8 pick in the 2011 draft as compensation. They just add the picks in so there could be more than 30 picks in each round.
Joe Thomas made Justin Timberlake change his name. He didn't want wusses to have the same initials...
Dawg Talker since 3/26/2005...
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Legend
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Legend
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(I also view the draft as an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, btw.)
Is that a joke? 
If not ... these players aren't employed by the Cleveland Browns or the Buffalo Bills ... they're employed by the NFL, and teams are extensions (franchises) of that entity.
That's like saying getting hired by a company and having them tell you you're going to work out of Nashville is unconstitutional. 
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
J/C
It's really no different than it has been for 50 years.
Cleveland has never been viewed as the garden spot in anything.
True enough,., but for the right buck,, it could be
I think the crux of what Ooorah was saying is that "FOR THE FIXED ROOKIE CAP" would some of these kids consider Cleveland...
Maybe it's just me, but I'd consider being drafted by anybody to be an honor,, but I clearly don't think like these kids coming out of college today
That's what would worry me -- that a kid wouldn't see it from that point of view, and thereby give a garden spot like Cleveland the shoulder shrug,....
Could be a problem..,,, although like Attack said,, I don't remember any pick not willing to come here.... Of course, that was when they could load up on the dough...LOL
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Rookie
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Rookie
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One of the things I haven't seen played up regarding Colt's play last Sunday was that he prsobably was not playing with all of the play book. My guess is that he was pretty limited in what he could call or do in check-offs. When he is allowed to really play qb, I think he will be even better than he was last Sunday.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
(I also view the draft as an unconstitutional violation of the First Amendment, btw.)
Is that a joke?
If not ... these players aren't employed by the Cleveland Browns or the Buffalo Bills ... they're employed by the NFL, and teams are extensions (franchises) of that entity.
That's like saying getting hired by a company and having them tell you you're going to work out of Nashville is unconstitutional.
Sorry, you're wrong. And the First Amendment says so. I play where I want to play, or, I don't play at all. Period. Same with work.
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Legend
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Legend
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So by your logic ... ... if you applied to work for Chase Bank, and Chase said 'you're hired, one of our branches in Birmingham has a spot open' ... and you said 'I'd rather work out of Miami' ... and they came back and said 'Birmingham's where we've placed you, take it or leave it.' ... you find that a violation of your First Amendment rights?
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