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well no loyal...
contrary to yours and some other peoples beliefs...it went like this...
Holmgren and Heckert signed/drafted/traded:
Mack, Haden, Ward, Lauvao, Larry Asante, Mike Adams, David Bowens, Sheldon Brown, Josh Cribbs, Costanzo, McCoy, Rogers, Fujita, Gocong, Evan Moore, Ben Watson, Roth, Benard, Hillis, Joe Thomas, Derek Anderson (saving us from further torture), and Seneca Wallace...which are all savvy moves
Mangini signed/drafted/traded:
Winslow and Edwards (the most successful Browns in years), Quinn (who never had a fair shake because of him), Screwed and Banished Harrison who was destined to take us to the SB), Delhomme (who is washed up), Veikune, Robiskie, Massaquoi, Maiava (who is never going to be more than a backup...AS A 4th rounder! he should be in the pro bowl!), Hardesty, Banished Davis, and St. Clair who is the reason our OL is so bad, as well as every other mistake of our franchise.
Just wanted to clear that up for everyone
I'm not exactly sure you have that all correct.. Roth was brought in by mangini,, Heckart was still in Philly and Holmgren was building houses in Mexico when roth was originally signed...
Mack was drafted by Mangini and Kokanis
Mike Adams, David Bowens, Josh Cribbs, Costanzo, Rogers, Evan Moore, Roth, Benard, and Joe Thomas were all here before Holmgren and Heckert got here.. so all they really did was resign a few of these guys..,
Cribbs, Rogers, Adams and Thomas are here because of Phil Savage.
Your comments on Mangini are a matter of opinion. I don't happen to agree but to each his own I guess.
In the event you were just having some fun with us,,, That was a GOOD ONE 
If you were serious,, I got nothing else to say 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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I can't believe that people are confused about Kingsteve's post.
Its the hangover from partying last night that's got everyone's minds in a funk.
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just clicking...
With this being Mangini's second year as HC, I would think that Browns fans would understand something about how he operates.
If a player does not want to be a "Brown", Mangini will do all he can to find you another team or simply cut you.
Both Harrison and James Davis...their physical abilities included an outside game that did not fit well with the present Browns OL blocking capabilities.
The Browns run offense/offensive line performs best when running "between" the tackles so it makes sense to swap out Harrison and Davis for Mike Bell and Thomas Clayton, two RBs that should fit "this" offense better.
If Harrison and/or Davis complained about their role this season, it is understandable. Harrison performed very well down the final stretch last season and most likely thought he had proven his value to the team.
But this season, the Browns offensive line has not shown the same ability that allowed Harrison to roll up some impressive numbers in the Browns last few games.
Harrison likely felt he had nothing to lose in the trade that sent him to the Eagles as he is most likely looking at what is best for his career.
The Davis situation appears to be one where Mangini gave up on him and had the opportunity to replace Davis with Clayton, who might be better suited for this offense.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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sarcasm by kingsteve
Whew,, I'm glad of that...LOL
In that case,, King,,, you da "new" Man
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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im glad some got...yes it was all sarcasm..
That being said...
One poster wrote that we dumped harrison for a straggler...I think its interesting that we think Mike Bell is a journeyman and Jerome Harrison is legit. Has Harrison shown he is a good player? Absolutely he has, and he did it for 3 games. however...thats it, he has had 3 good games with a sprinkling of good games but generally hes not done all that much. He has very similar career production to Mike Bell.
Both guys are the same age and have within 50 yards of each other in career rushing yards. Harrison however has played 7 more games, but has fewer carries.
The difference between them is really the running style and nothing more. Harrison is a homerun hitter who also has a tendency to get hit in the backfield because his patience sometimes gets him in trouble. Bell is a hammer who hits the hole quick and grinds out what he can get. I dont know which is better, but i know for a fact which style we run.
*i still have an issue that gets to me which makes me sad about losing jerome. He has never had a game where he got 15+ carries that he also had < 100 yards. Thats my one issue with him leaving...*
and with James Davis...we've seen he has some potential...but, hes never displayed it on the field after the preseason. He showed all his juice against guys that are workin 9-5s like we all are
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Do you mean a game where he had more than 15 carries and less than 100 yards?
He did so this year against KC. 16 carries for 33 yards. He also did last year against Baltimore, with 16 carries for 52 yards.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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hmmm...perhaps it was 20 carries? I know tv people mentioned a stat of that sort...maybe it was 20 carries.
My mistake
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Still it could be %'s ... If we all know Jerome is good for a 30 or 40 yarder .. that might mean on 20 carries you have a 5% chance of going 40 yards ... but a 40% chance of getting 2 or less ..
Hillis (or a bigger bruiser) might not be a home run threat ... but more times than not they are gonna at least carve out a few on the ground and another yard or two if they fall forward.
Not saying its what it is .. just saying what it could be.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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I have read where people bring up the fact that many carries Hillis doesn't get much more than a yard or two. That is true but he gets a lot of those small gains where Harrison can't. Also his running style does beat down defenders. I don't think he can keep it up all season so the Bell trade does make sense on that level. We will see how it plays out with bringing in yet another bruising (supposedly) back for Davis. I personally would like to see a change of pace back to spell Hillis but nobody cares what I think, especially the browns brain trust.
#gmstrong
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He very well could have a less chance of getting a yard or two than Harrison for all I know, I'm not trying to take sides on this issue because there is too much that I DONT know. Did Harrison and/or Davis request the trade (and even if they didn't ... did they do it by their actions and not by words)? Did they have arguments or conversations with the coaching staff? Were they given multiple examples?
All I'm saying is when I watch a game with certain teams, The Saints, Pats, Colts... almost any offense where someone can pass ... if it's 2nd and short they take a shot deep. If its 3rd and short they can pass for the first. Even if it'ss 4th down Bill Belichik is passing the ball.
We aren't that team and for the most part just dont have a passing game. If that's the case, we more or less need to churn out 2, 3, 4 yards a play and keep first downs going, moving the clock and the sticks.
If we have a guy run for 45 yards but then we cant get another first down, maybe we get a field goal yeah ... but we might also have a drive that just took 2 or 3 minutes off the clock ... and now our defense is out there getting tired again.
Our team needs to control the clock and the ball. Doing that will let us stay competitive until the 4th.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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As I said, Mangini-talk vs Mangini-do....of COURSE he isn't in his doghouse, yeah right...
You continually spout off as if you know something no one else does. You assume these things as fact, but you merely chirp your poisoned opinion repetitively.
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he also said he would use him BEFORE the game, ever heard of Coache's speak?
He said he'd likely be ready to play days before the game, (in the Wednesday presser I believe,) assuming he would be healthy. Obviously he wasn't. Ever heard of considering all the factors?
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Mangini's word doesn't mean anything....look at his actions ....not only did he not spell Hillis, he gave Davis the spot carries too..hello, McFly?...
You don't know what his word means, you simply enjoy disparaging him to bolster your position. Right now, his word means a hell of a lot more than your opinion. Harrison was hurt. You have no idea the extent or effect of that injury, or how it manifested itself that week in practice. That's why Davis got the carries... McFly. :rollseyes: Harrison was ahead of him on the D-chart, had he been good to go, Harrison would have seen the field. He wasn't, so he didn't. Apparently, that particular factor refuses to penetrate your reasoning.
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and then he inserts him on the kneel down? It's pretty 100% a jerk to mobbing move...or as Mangini calls em: message...very subtle Eric
Again, who cares about this, no one but you. I doubt Mangini even called the package. It was likely Daboll, and it was probably done out of respect for his position on the D-chart to allow him to see the field and share in the victory without risking further injury. But you couldn't possibly consider that because it doesn't suit your agenda since it must be all about Mangini's ego. He most likely didn't even give it a moment of thought at the time. How you can honestly believe he was plotting against Harrison when he had just beaten the division champ is way beyond me.
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Talk isn't reality, Cal...
Neither is your biased opinion.
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it's the actual actions...they tell the story...Eric is just rewriting/deflecting...as usual...rememeber when he said all the nice things about BE and KW all the time...so, what did he do? Actions, my friend, actions...not words
What did you think he would do, come out and call BE & KW arrogant, ego driven & selfish? Did you think he would tell the press that BE was talentless, or that KW's knees were shot? I'd love to hear your rantings of classlessness, cheap shot tactics, and idiocy were he to do that, or bash Harrison publicly for dancing to a hole, or whining in the locker room. Fact is, you don't know anything about their relationships, the plans for the team, whether they like each other, dislike each other, whether he saw the moves as a business decisions or considered those players cancerous and dangerous. You skew anything you can to make your bashing sound logical, but that's all it is no matter how you try to paint it, and regardless of any fractional fact bent to suit your position. It's boring. Even you must be getting tired of finding new ways to skew partial facts to suit your ineffectual rants.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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1. If Harrison wasn't good to go, he would not have been active, since he isn't a ST conributor...if he was good to go for ST, he'd be for RB too....guess he needed a speedy, limping RB for the kneel down, huh? bye bye weak argument 2. So you take Mangini's word on Harrison but not on BE and KW...interesting...and I am the one picking stuff out to fit his argument? At least I'm not contradicting myself within a post 
#gmstrong
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One thing I noticed back when DA got hot and we were scoring a lot, and fast, was that our D was on the field too much. They were totally gassed by the 4th.
We are building a ball-control team. Some have talked about our line being better at blocking for a straight-ahead runner rather than a shifty speed guy. Anybody care to elaborate on that? Is it a factor of Changing Styles when the #2 back is put in to give Hillis a rest? Or is a matter of "straight-ahead" versus "side-to-side" control while blocking?
Our O has struggled to find plays that work consistently. We have not had a bankable play to get 2 to 4 yards, every time. Hillis gives us that, which hopefully will make play-action more effective, and in general more extended drives allowing our QB to get into his rhythm, more points, etc.
I don't remember this second guy being talked up during camp, he apparently was getting reps with the 1's? This comment got my interest. We really need somebody effective to spell Hillis occasionally.
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1. If Harrison wasn't good to go, he would not have been active, since he isn't a ST conributor...if he was good to go for ST, he'd be for RB too....guess he needed a speedy, limping RB for the kneel down, huh? bye bye weak argument
That's B.S. and you know it. If he was needed in an emergency, he'd have gone in, but there was no point risking further injury if the other two were healthy. You make pointless, silly arguments, for the sake of blathering on and on about Mangini because you have a hard on for him.
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2. So you take Mangini's word on Harrison but not on BE and KW...interesting...and I am the one picking stuff out to fit his argument? At least I'm not contradicting myself within a post
The point is, is that you know nothing about how he feels about a player regardless of what you say about it. Mangini has always, consistently treated outgoing players with class and respect in the media, regardless of whether they were classless asses or not. I'm sure he wishes them well personally, so it's pointless to bash them in the media simply because they don't fit his mold. No coach would do that. You want to make him sound bad, so you venomously spew illogical points to bolster your fabricated arguments. When you get called on your B.S. you sidestep, deflect, then spew some other nonsense. You're like the little boy who cried wolf. If you do ever happen make a logical point again, it'll be impossible to take you seriously.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I think it was Mac, among others...but I do not agree....our right side maybe, but Steiny and Thomas are both very good 2nd level run blockers...much better than straight ahead imho, even though they aren't crap at it, they are more finesse than grunts...Mack is a very good straight ahead run blocker but also good beyond the LOS...so our "base" is better at 2nd evel blocking overall...not sure about Lauvao, but from scouting reports he seems to be like a Mack-light clone, just not as talented and physically gifted, which means he should be fine at both in run blocking...RT? we don't have a future RT yet...so all in all I think we'd be better off with lots of counters and pulls, which worked to perfection in the NO game.....even a 1cut and go style would fit us good...all systems where a speedy/short area acceleration RB can do a lot of damage
It really is a shame that we haven't figured out to use a speed-RB since our return.....we need this to happen in order to improve our running game even further and take the next step
#gmstrong
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Thanks for proving my 1.) point by going at me instead of what I posted...talk football or let it go with a little style at least
2. You start off with sensless rants on how sure you are Mangini is a nice guy etc....well, maybe, that's not important and I frankly don't care. You made an argument that was self-contradictory....you're actually the one who sidesteps, when I threw this contradiction back at you...just like with 1.). You take his words on Harrison to discredit my opinions...that's fine, but then you get all angry when I point out the numerous examples where his words meant nothing, actually quite the contrary....Cal, that's my point....the ACTIONS tell the story not his words...I, and everybody else KNOWS how he "feels" or what he thinks about a player by just watching his ACTIONS
and yes, my posts, as I already emphasized, are MY OPINION...you get all worked up about my opinion...I happen to think it's because I make good points to back up my opinion and the fan in you doesnt know how to counter it...also I'm not gettign fooled by BS rhetoric like 99% on here...so that doesn't work neither....it's ok, let''s agree to disagree...you see a good HC, I see a bad one..
If calling me out and accusing me of some "psychological" BS and thus making ME, the poster with a strong opinion, the topic of your post actually strengthens my opinion...since you can't get behind what the specific poster actually says other than yelling at him.....think kids when they "argue" with adults...what's their last resort?
Crying "bias" doesn't weaken the argument at hand...I could do the same by just calling you a cheerleader and stupid homer all the time, basically accusing you of the same "bias"...but I don't need to go there AND it's not a way adults should argue a point because it's not about the subject/problem being discussed
So please let it go or discuss the content of my posts
Thank you
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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There, see? You can do it, one perfectly readable post. Followed by one I mostly skipped. Maybe you should post twice everytime?
Now this concept of the "team" not knowing how to use a small back. I get the idea, many have mentioned it, but how is this possible thru multiple HC, OC, FO regimes over the years? Does it have to do with preparation to play on mud and snow? Even though their game is not suited for "up the gut", because their style won't work in wintertime? WHY "Metcalf up the middle"???
How about blocking scheme design in addition to players' skillsets? Is Hillis style somehow "easier" to block for?
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It could have a lot to do with the mentality as well of the line. I've heard multiple times that the mindset of a line is better / worse compared to even a few yards.
If you grind out 2 yards and hit the hole even if there is no "hole" .. the line would be a lot happier and therefor more willing to block than if you show off your "twinkle toes" (see Jamal at the end of his time here, then a few games with Jerome from what I remember).
They were talking about the line mentality a lot a week or two ago when Jay Cutler escaped pressure then ran out of bounds to avoid getting hit but because he ran outta bounds instead of throwing it away, they said it showed up as a sack of -4 yards or whatever instead of just an incomplete. Not a big deal obviously, but apparently things like that can kill an offensive lines mentality because it shows up in the box score as another error on their behalf.
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this thread is starting to fall apart. its losing its traction.
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It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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You only make one, repetitive point: that Mangini sucks. When you're called on your B.S. you whine that I'm not talking football. I've countered every illogical point you've made, and dissected every so-called "football" decision you've taken issue with, yet you keep coming back with the same rhetoric, that I'm attacking you instead of your points. You say it over and over, yet refuse to address the counterpoints I've made, ignoring them completely and sidestepping to some other issue you have with me personally when I point out your logic flaws. You keep crying about his ACTIONS. HIS ACTIONS. HIS ACTIONS. Mangini's actions have completely consistent with what he's trying to do with the team, however you only see them as somehow contrary to decent behavior and make idiotic points to attack his character or his intelligence. It's clear that you don't have any point to make, other than you don't like the guy. None of your arguments have proven that his ACTIONS are detrimental to the team, or have directly cost us wins. So what is your point exactly? Think child stomping his foot when he doesn't get his way. What does it accomplish? Call me a homer or a cheerleader, or whatever you want, but I have pointed out flaws I've seen with the team, and with the coaching, and I'm able to at least consider another opinion or idea. I've never called you stupid, but your POV is myopic, and you refuse to consider any POV that doesn't mesh with your own, even if evidence is right in front of you, or the other factors that come into play are made to counter your points. Like a blind man standing in front of an elephant, you can only see a snake. You take meaningless minutia, twist it out of context, then call it talking football, but mostly it's nonsensical gibberish and I'm happy to let it go, because this is a waste of time. Peace. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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It could be ... depends on which posts you look at. While Im interested now to see what this new RB can do (especially if he was getting first team reps) ..
It makes sense that we bring in a bigger back more than anything in this entire thread, and Im not trying to say that my views only are right.
But, if I had to summarize what I've seen in this thread:
For whatever reason, Mangini (or someone with ability to control / influence the roster) didn't like Harrison and Davis AT LEAST compared to the options that they got in return for them.
It doesnt mean that they made the best decisions, or even made decisions based upon information that we are even aware of right now... but for whatever reason and circumstance, we are more inclined to bring in the bigger style back then continue with Davis and Harrison.
Finally, regardless of what you think about harrisons value, he is gone. And whatever you think about mangini's horrible drafting, he doesnt do that anymore. Looks like the biggest issue is how do we continue to bring in guys that will produce as a part of the team and not have a me first attitude.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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You keep crying about his ACTIONS. HIS ACTIONS. HIS ACTIONS. Mangini's actions have completely consistent with what he's trying to do with the team, however you only see them as somehow contrary to decent behavior and make idiotic points to attack his character or his intelligence. It's clear that you don't have any point to make, other than you don't like the guy. None of your arguments have proven that his ACTIONS are detrimental to the team, or have directly cost us wins. So what is your point exactly? Think child stomping his foot when he doesn't get his way. What does it accomplish?
I've stated that passing although leading most of the games instead of running cost us the 1st 2 games...I give you the run-pass ratio...overall (2:1 in the TB game) and to start the game (gameplan)...and you simply call it "balanced"....I mean how are you going to discuss with a guy that calls a tree a house? You don't accept the simplest facts about this game...it's right there...I know exactly what games I saw against TB and KC....and the KC game was a replay of the 1st game, we all know it....we finally feature the running game more against CIN and NO...and have competitive games that ended with a W (ok, dumber teams that outsmarted themselves too did help there)
Also, the 1st H 2nd H discrepancy in performance is a major red flag...he either can't or won't adjust or he lacks motivational skills...but yeah, I know it's the players and the "bad talent" we have...that's why we got completely dominated by as talentless teams as KC and TB...Mangenius can only do so much, right? Jesus, are you guys really believeing the BS you post?
None of my arguments have proven that his ACTIONS are detrimental to the team, or have directly cost us wins? The way you argue...there are none...I mean really what would "qualify" as proof? Mangini coming out saying he $%@ up? We'll never see that day...his ACTIONS (whatever they are/are not) got us to 2 1-5 starts with BETTER talent than the guys before him inherited...I mean I can't go more bottom line than this, that's BOTTOM LINE ACTIONS (to what his actions led)...if you like it, great...I don't and I won't accept excuses for it...you know how many teams WOULD HAVE 1-2 more wins IF not for a pick-6, KR-TD, fumble etc etc etc?...it's a bad excuse happening once, a very bad one when it happens in back to back games to start off the season...that's a pattern
If your HC is such a genius that he loses games he lead by 1 mistake...to 2 teams that picked ahead of us just months before (and looked at least as bad as us the year before...esp. at the end)...then why did we lose to those teams? I heard all the homer talk about improvements made at the end of last season...and then we lose to KC and TB? Really? Why do those teams have a better record than us? Because Delhomme threw a pick 6? Really?
Here are the Top 10 pick teams of 2010:
STL 4-4, 25th O, 11th D
DET 2-5, 17th O, 21st D
TB 5-2, 21st O, 25th D
WAS 4-4, 20th O, 31st D
KC 5-2, 12th O, 16th D
SEA 4-3, 30th O, 26th D
CLE 2-5, 28th O, 22nd D
OAK 4-4, 8th O, 8th D, 9th D
BUF 0-7, 26th O, 29th D
JAX 4-4, 23rd O, 30th D
....and you guys see improvements? You think other teams sleep in this league? We're still below AVG on both sides of the ball, well below on O and you can say with a straight face Mangini is doing a good job?
If you can't accept those real life facts...I really can't help any of you
Go Browns
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yards/game is a horrible statistic and you know that. at least use the proper ones.
the good points:
the Cleveland Browns are currently the #10 run defense in YPC
the Cleveland Browns are currently the #12 defense in Pts/Game against
for the millionth time: pass/run ratio of the TB game was 28/23 until the last 2 minutes of the game where we passed 10 straight times to preserve clock and desperately try to win the game, which obviously skewed that ratio.
and I've disproven your theory for bad management at the end of the half of that game as well. at least from my perspective.
the bad points
run offense has now dropped to #20 in YPC after the last 2 games
pass offense is #23 in YPA
Pts/Game is #31 (only Carolina is worse)
pass defense is #27 in YPA
Ok, our offense has been absolutely killing us. That is very evident from this entire season. Our pass defense has been suspect as well, but have been able to make up for it with turnovers or forcing FGs in most games (hence the pts/game doing well). Especially poor in the Baltimore, Atlanta, and Cincinatti games.
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28/23 is still pass heavy esp. considering we had the lead for pretty much the entire game, even a 2 score lead...I'm not saying it is too pass heavy in general...it's pass happy for us, esp. leading....we are a much better running O than pass O, everyone of us knows that...and to make your argument worse...our run game was working...so what did our Coaches know what we didn't?
The pick-6 befoere the H we disagree..I simply don't see the point of passing with 2 TO left and 3-5yds from FG distance (before the H it was a FG try anyway, even 56yd) AFTER you let the clock trickle down and NOT take a TO on the completion before...it just doesn't make ANY sense...rund twice for 4-8 yds, take TOs, maybe then try a shot at the EZ on 3rd if you like...but to come out passing there was stupid anyway I look at it...it didn't and doesn't make any sense
Also, I can nitpick partial stats too for those other 9 teams that were as bad as us last season...most of them are looking much better than us and have something they are good at....almost every team is above AVG in something in this league....but you W/L games playing "complementary football" in the NFL...you know, that thing Mangini is always speaking off but I fail to see his team do
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Nice objective view We knew coming into this season our passing game would be suspect. I had a little higher hopes for our pass defense; hopefully we can show some improvement there. At this point, unless the train completely comes off the tracks, I'm in favor of keeping Mangini. I like how hard our team is playing for 4 quarters; to me that shows they buy into what he is selling. Look at Dallas - they've got WAY more talent on offense than us and have seemed to mailed it in. I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and Golic made some interesting points of how it's on the players to get motivated, not the coaches. He said it never made a difference to him if the coach was "rah, rah, rah" or low key - it is the players responsibility to be motivated. Interesting take from someone who played the game I thought.
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Ok, pass-heavy for us, I can see that. You had just always said pass-heavy, which in general it is not. So, that is fine.
Unfortunately, our run offense has not been much better than our pass offense (especially lately). It is better, but not leaps and bounds. I am hoping a lot of that was due to Hillis having a ton of bumps and bruises. We'll see coming out of the bye.
We disagree on the FG. As much as I like Dawson, I want the FG closer to 40yds if at all possible. You wanted a more conservative approach. Different styles/philosophies and nothing more.
Finally, I wasn't using partial stats. I gave YPC/YPA for both offense and defense and run and pass. I just separated them into 'good' and 'bad' categoreis. I do agree that we need those 'bad' categories to at least get to 'average' if we are to start winning consistently.
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Quote:
Nice objective view
We knew coming into this season our passing game would be suspect. I had a little higher hopes for our pass defense; hopefully we can show some improvement there.
At this point, unless the train completely comes off the tracks, I'm in favor of keeping Mangini. I like how hard our team is playing for 4 quarters; to me that shows they buy into what he is selling. Look at Dallas - they've got WAY more talent on offense than us and have seemed to mailed it in.
I was listening to Mike & Mike this morning and Golic made some interesting points of how it's on the players to get motivated, not the coaches. He said it never made a difference to him if the coach was "rah, rah, rah" or low key - it is the players responsibility to be motivated. Interesting take from someone who played the game I thought.
I agree. Very few unmotivated people are motivated by a speech.
If you have a room full of self motivated players, then the pre-game, half time, or post game words might register.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 11/01/10 07:40 PM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Here's a bit of advice,whoever has been feeding you that crap about linemen's mentality,don't believe anything they may tell you.
Some of the things you post just leave me dumbfounded.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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All Pro
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Here is an outsiders take on the job that Mangini has done so far this Yr: Quote:
Coaching: B—Should Eric Mangini be judged on the record, which at 2-5 is poor? Or on the opening losses to Tampa Bay and Kansas City, which set a negative tone for the season from the start? Or should he be judged on the way his team plays, which is hard and with great effort? Mangini has preached from his hiring that he wants smart, tough, dedicated players who do not cause problems. That approach has given Cleveland a team that gives its all in every game, and one that has fought through a lot of negativity. It has not given Cleveland an overly talented team. Say this for the Browns and Mangini: The team has had a chance to win every game in the fourth quarter, and this 2-5 team seems a whole lot better than the one that started last year 1-6.
Yaaahhhhhoooooo!!!!!!!
The rest of the article is pretty much a rehash, they do heap praise on Rubin, Hillis and Ward though.
Born and breed with OSU, App. State alumni, but bleed orange and brown.
Go ARMY......Beat Navy!!!!!!
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Quote:
Here's a bit of advice,whoever has been feeding you that crap about linemen's mentality,don't believe anything they may tell you.
Some of the things you post just leave me dumbfounded.
Lol I don't think that everything I say is golden don't get me wrong .. but dumbfounded? I think that's insulting. haha .. um please be more specific I guess so I know what you're talking about?
All I'm saying is if your job is to block, would you rather block for the guy who is getting 3 yards whether or not you get a great hole? or the guy who is stutter stepping and possibly losing a yard
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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KC and TB are a combined 10-4...theyre both 5-2 and playing excellent football...how can you say talentless?? come on...
its not like theyre denver or san fran or buffalo
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Thank you, they are 2 teams that picked ahead of us for a reason....and now the're 3 games better than us after only 7 games....KC is clearly better on O and D, how come they did improve so much and we didn't? TB is only slightly better on O and D (and I'd argue not better talent wise), they won close games all season, we lost them...how come? How come those "poor" 2009 teams are able to finish games and we don't still...in the 2nd year of the same staff? Other teams that were bad improve in the BOTTOM LINE department...we only improved in making excuses
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I've stated that passing although leading most of the games instead of running cost us the 1st 2 games...I give you the run-pass ratio...overall (2:1 in the TB game) and to start the game (gameplan)...and you simply call it "balanced"....I mean how are you going to discuss with a guy that calls a tree a house?
1) Fact: 37:23 isn't 2:1.
2) Fact: 236 yards passing and 104 yards rushing is balanced.
3) Fact: Pass to run ratio changes in a two minute drill, and when you fall behind in scoring.
4) Hypothesis: Partial use of stats to bolster weak arguments is faulty logic, no matter how often, or how emphatically stated.
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You don't accept the simplest facts about this game...it's right there...
1) Fact: Turn-overs and penalties cost us those games. Period.
2) Fact: We spotted them each 10 points, and lost to TB by 3 and KC by 2.
3) Hypothesis: You can't accept the simplest facts about the game and, in addition, suffer from a debilitating math deficiency.
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I know exactly what games I saw against TB and KC....and the KC game was a replay of the 1st game, we all know it...
1) Fact: The KC game was not a replay of TB game. That's a moronic statement.
2) Fact: Lumping everyone in with your defective reasoning doesn't strengthen your argument.
3) Hypothesis: Refusing to factor the turnovers and penalties as a major reason for the loss renders your overall analysis meaningless.
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Also, the 1st H 2nd H discrepancy in performance is a major red flag...he either can't or won't adjust or he lacks motivational skills...but yeah, I know it's the players and the "bad talent" we have...that's why we got completely dominated by as talentless teams as KC and TB...Mangenius can only do so much, right?
1) Fact: Steady improvement over the course of this season, in spite of multiple key injuries, demonstrates a strong ability to adapt and adjust.
2) Fact: The "major red flag" is only a factor in your mind, not in actual game play.
3) Hypothesis: Had the team not spotted each opponent 10 points, the second halves may have ended with different outcomes. Your refusal to acknowledge this only highlights your myopic reasoning and your animus toward Mangini .
4) Fact: KC and TB are both 5-2. Calling them talentless is by far the dumbest thing you've said.
5) Fact: The players are extremely motivated and play hard for four quarters.
6) Fact: The teams is still missing pieces. For some unknown reason, you seem unable to grasp this and are only able to rant about Mangini's ego and incompetence, repeating your baseless point of view ad nauseum.
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Jesus, are you guys really believeing the BS you post?
See above.
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None of my arguments have proven that his ACTIONS are detrimental to the team, or have directly cost us wins? The way you argue...there are none...I mean really what would "qualify" as proof? Mangini coming out saying he $%@ up? We'll never see that day...his ACTIONS (whatever they are/are not) got us to 2 1-5 starts with BETTER talent than the guys before him inherited.
1) Fact: Mangini has taken personal responsibility for the losses, along with the rest of the coaching staff and the players. Since then he and they have worked very hard to make improvements in their deficiencies, like protecting the ball and reducing penalties.
2) Fact: Unlike you, the HC, players and coaches recognize that penalties and turnovers cost them the games.
3) Fact: The team Mangini inherited was a mess, with very little talent. The top talent we did have was a WR that couldn't catch, a TE with bad knees that couldn't block, two terrible QBs, a RB at the end of his career, very little talent in the secondary, an O-line with only two starters and a porous LB corps.
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I mean I can't go more bottom line than this, that's BOTTOM LINE ACTIONS (to what his actions led)...if you like it, great...I don't and I won't accept excuses for it...
1) Fact: This first sentence is gibberish.
2) Hypothesis: Accept or don't accept whatever you want, that's prerogative, but your inability to see the bigger picture doesn't lend your arguments any strength.
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you know how many teams WOULD HAVE 1-2 more wins IF not for a pick-6, KR-TD, fumble etc etc etc?...it's a bad excuse happening once, a very bad one when it happens in back to back games to start off the season...that's a pattern
1) Fact: We're not talking about other team's losses, just our first two. Every situation is unique, and must be examined separately, within the context of the particular game. It's not simply that there were turnovers, examination must include how and why those turnovers occurred.
2) Fact: There is no pattern here, only what happened those first two games.
3) Fact: You now conveniently use these turnovers in your argument to disparage Mangini's competence, but refuse to acknowledge that they were the direct cause of the losses.
4) Fact: This is empirical evidence of your lack of reason, and clearly demonstrates your arguments are based on pure emotion.
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If your HC is such a genius that he loses games he lead by 1 mistake...to 2 teams that picked ahead of us just months before (and looked at least as bad as us the year before...esp. at the end)...then why did we lose to those teams?
1) Fact: No one said that Mangini is a genius, only a man working hard to improve the team.
2) Fact: Both losses were due to multiple mistakes, made by players on the field. Poor throws, fumbles, and penalties.
3) Fact: Where the teams picked in the draft is completely irrelevant. Your need to use this to bolster your argument reeks of desperation to make your baseless point.
4) Fact: It's already been made clear, repeatedly, why we lost to those teams. I'll repeat it for you: we lost because of penalties and turnovers. You refer to "those two teams" as if picking high in the draft makes them somehow inferior, and seem incapable of understanding that they are good teams with 5-2 records. The fact that you're still asking why we lost only proves your inability understand the simplest concepts.
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I heard all the homer talk about improvements made at the end of last season...and then we lose to KC and TB? Really? Why do those teams have a better record than us? Because Delhomme threw a pick 6? Really?
1) See above.
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....and you guys see improvements? You think other teams sleep in this league? We're still below AVG on both sides of the ball, well below on O and you can say with a straight face Mangini is doing a good job?
1) Fact: There has been definite improvement. We've been in every game until the end. The team plays hard for 60 minutes.
2) Fact: Your question about teams sleeping is rhetorical nonsense.
3) Fact: We're ranked 22nd in total defense this year -vs- 31st last year. 26th -vs- 29th in passing D. 19th -vs- 28th in rushing D. On offense we're 28th -vs- 32 in total offense. 23rd -vs- 32 in passing, and 19th -vs- 8th in rushing. That is improvement in every category except rushing. Of course we had no passing game last year, and the burst at the end of last year came against bottom ranked teams, which skewed the stats.
4) Hypothesis: The season isn't over, the team is improving each week, even though we're decimated by injuries, and playing a 3rd string rookie.
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If you can't accept those real life facts...I really can't help any of you
1) Hypothesis: You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass.
2) Fact: No one asked for your help.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I wouldn't use KC or TB as a way to discredit Mangini and the Browns.
Mark my words, both of those teams will come crashing down to reality next year or before the season even ends. Both teams have rode cupcake schedules and some lucky bounces to the records they have. There is no sustenance there at all. KC has some pieces in places but are clearly playing above their heads.
KC and TB are the Browns of 2007. If they make it through this season with decent records, they'll be talked about all off season as turning the corner. Neither team has a true QB to build around. When they become targets, they'll fail.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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Just clicking TO Django and Cal... Are we having fun yet?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Django you will call this an excuse but I don't particularly care.... to you its an excuse, to others its just a cold hard fact... between the Chiefs and Bucs, how many teams with a winning record have they beaten? Answer... 0. Of the 5 teams the Chiefs have beaten they have a combined record of 11-27.. only the Jags on that list are at .500 now... The two teams they played with a winning record, the Colts and Texans.. both losses.. The 5 teams Tampa Bay has beaten have a record of 12-24 and they lost to the Steelers and Saints, the two teams they have played with a winning record.. do you realize that every team.. EVERY TEAM that the Browns have lost to is currently 5-2? Even if you take out the head to heads the teams the Browns have played are SOOOOO much better than the teams the Chiefs and Bucs have played...
While the Browns were losing pretty close games to the Steelers, the Falcons and the Ravens.. the Chiefs and Bucs were beating the Bills, the 49ers, the Panthers and the Cardinals... real apples to apples there.
and this week we get to play New England who is 6-1 and then the Jets who are 5-2... the Chiefs next two games are against Oakland and Denver.. two more sub .500 teams..
The Browns played with, and should have beaten either the Bucs, the Chiefs or both, but they didn't.. you are right, they didn't finish... but to act like those teams have made great strides because they got to play the Bills, the 49ers, the Cardinals, the Rams, the Panthers.. and we made no strides while we've been playing every darn division leader in the NFL is just foolish and agenda driven....
Do you think if we had played the 49ers instead of the Falcons and the Panthers instead of the Ravens and the Bills instead of the Steelers that we might have a different record? Maybe?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
1) Fact: 37:23 isn't 2:1.
2) Fact: 236 yards passing and 104 yards rushing is balanced.
3) Fact: Pass to run ratio changes in a two minute drill, and when you fall behind in scoring.
4) Hypothesis: Partial use of stats to bolster weak arguments is faulty logic, no matter how often, or how emphatically you stated.
Boy, you really want to Fail the hard way, lol
Ok here goes: You "got" me...37:23 isnt 2:1 but it's 62,1% pass...you got 4,5% ratio back, congrats....it's still way too much for a running team EVEN if you subtract the last 2min...and not every team passes last 2 min, 1 score down...everything over 50% passing is way too much for a team that won the last 4 games last season with a 2:1 run:pass ratio
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1) Fact: Turn-overs and penalties cost us those games. Period.
2) Fact: We spotted them each 10 points, and lost to TB by 3 and KC by 2.
3) Hypothesis: You can't accept the simplest facts about the game and, in addition, suffer from a debilitating math deficiency.
Welcome to picking partial stats Cal....TB had 2 turnovers, we had 3, that's -1....KC had 2 turnovers, we had 2 too...WASH....we had -1 TO differential in those 2 games...EXCUSES...math deficiency, huh?
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1) Fact: The KC game was not a replay of TB game. That's a moronic statement.
2) Fact: Lumping everyone in with your defective reasoning doesn't strengthen your argument.
3) Hypothesis: Refusing to factor the turnovers and penalties as a major reason for the loss renders your overall analysis meaningless.
So, we didn't lose to a team that picked ahead of us, throwing a pick 6 with the lead? "Fact 2" , ROFL...man, you ran out of shots quickly but oyu had to boost your "facts" stats huh? Guess that's what posters 2 scores down do too 
Quote:
1) Fact: Steady improvement over the course of this season, in spite of multiple key injuries, demonstrates a strong ability to adapt and adjust.
2) Fact: The "major red flag" is only a factor in your mind, not in actual game play.
3) Hypothesis: Had the team not spotted each opponent 10 points, the second halves may have ended with different outcomes. Your refusal to acknowledge this only highlights your myopic reasoning and your animus toward Mangini .
4) Fact: KC and TB are both 5-2. Calling them talentless is by far the dumbest thing you've said.
5) Fact: The players are extremely motivated and play hard for four quarters.
6) Fact: The teams is still missing pieces. For some unknown reason, you seem unable to grasp this and are only able to rant about Mangini's ego and incompetence, repeating your baseless point of view ad nauseum.
Let summarize your "facts"....turnovers, waah....injuries, waah...did I miss something? I guess no other NFL team has them...and they say that good coached teams turn the ball over less
So we didn't do pretty much nothing in both 2nd H against TB and KC? What gamne did you see? Did we even score? Did we allow a TD, when we needed a stop? Because that's what I saw....just to get on the same page: what did oyu see?...ahh, I quote: "The players are extremely motivated and play hard for four quarters." ....but they still didn't score, right? So, your point is? You like them? Jesus...
If my aunty had nuts...we still led in BOTH games AT the HALF...that was AFTER the pick 6s...it's not that the games were out of reach, WE LED...and then FAILED..we didn't lose because off those TOs, we just made it harder on us to FINISH the games WE LED...that happens to every 2nd sunday winner in the NFL, every gameday...they still MANAGE to win and close it out..especially against not better talented teams, which KC and TB qualify for...you make it sounds as if we dug a dep hole by those TOs..we didn't, we STILL LED (get it now?).....
What you're doing is revisionists history...of course we LOST because of those 2 pick-6s IF (that's a BIG IF) you are ok (accept) the fact that we DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING the 2nd H of those games...THEN of course we lost because of them....but hey, newsflash: a football game is 60min and 2 H, not 1 and 30min....that's MY PROBLEM: I don't accept those excuses: we LOST because we did nothing to WIN the game in the 2nd H....and when that happens in back to back weeks, it's a coaching problem, either motivational or tactical or both
See above.
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1) Fact: Mangini has taken personal responsibility for the losses, along with the rest of the coaching staff and the players. Since then he and they have worked very hard to make improvements in their deficiencies, like protecting the ball and reducing penalties.
2) Fact: Unlike you, the HC, players and coaches recognize that penalties and turnovers cost them the games.
3) Fact: The team Mangini inherited was a mess, with very little talent. The top talent we did have was a WR that couldn't catch, a TE with bad knees that couldn't block, two terrible QBs, a RB at the end of his career, very little talent in the secondary, an O-line with only two starters and a porous LB corps.
Oh no, he's quick to take the company line (WE) when things go wrong....I've never once heard him "that's on me"...NEVER
That was the big "pro" Mangini argument last season....discipline and penalties....now that they regressed there for the 1st weeks I'm not going to applaud him for getting back where he left of last season (at best, still not as disciplined)....that's a backhanded compliment from you
A Mess huh? Like 2-3 ProBowlers in the trenches mess? ProBowl WR and pass catching TE? Crennel had Fisk at NT and Verba at LT....Mangini got Rogers and Thomas....it was bottom 3rd but not as bad as what the others got left...you have little argument here...and he did a worse job with more talent...I only remember starting 1-5 with Crennel once in 4 years and his teams were at least 1-2 games around .500 in every season by mid-season....and Crennel wasn't a good HC by any means...but Mangini got LESS out of MORE
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1) Fact: No one said that Mangini is a genius, only a man working hard to improve the team.
2) Fact: Both losses were due to multiple mistakes, made by players on the field. Poor throws, fumbles, and penalties.
3) Fact: Where the teams picked in the draft is completely irrelevant. Your need to use this to bolster your argument reeks of desperation to make your baseless point.
4) Fact: It's already been made clear, repeatedly, why we lost to those teams. I'll repeat it for you: we lost because of penalties and turnovers. You refer to "those two teams" as if picking high in the draft makes them somehow inferior, and seem incapable of understanding that they are good teams with 5-2 records. The fact that you're still asking why we lost only proves your inability understand the simplest concepts.
Repeating doesn't make it better Cal...we LED after both TOs in those games...and the TO differential was -1 for those 2 games...you're accepting the FACT that we did nothing in the 2nd H AFTER those momentum breaks, I don't...that's the whole difference
..and no, it's not irrelevant where those 2009 losers picked...TB and KC are perfect examples for comparison, since both have been losing teams for years now, like us....they do not have much better talent, they're just using it better (Coaching gameplan) and don't shoot themselves in the foot (more disciplined...that's on Coache's too...if it was a pro-Mangini 2009 argument it is one aginst him in those 2 games, right? Ah, that damn catch 22 huh Cal? but I guess NOW it's on the players right?)
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1) Fact: There has been definite improvement. We've been in every game until the end. The team plays hard for 60 minutes.
2) Fact: Your question about teams sleeping is rhetorical nonsense.
3) Fact: We're ranked 22nd in total defense this year -vs- 31st last year. 26th -vs- 29th in passing D. 19th -vs- 28th in rushing D. On offense we're 28th -vs- 32 in total offense. 23rd -vs- 32 in passing, and 19th -vs- 8th in rushing. That is improvement in every category except rushing. Of course we had no passing game last year, and the burst at the end of last year came against bottom ranked teams, which skewed the stats.
4) Hypothesis: The season isn't over, the team is improving each week, even though we're decimated by injuries, and playing a 3rd string rookie.
Again, and now look up where Mangini took us from, look at our 2007 and 2008 rankings and then put his 2009 and 2010 rankings next to it...and then get back to me and tell me "we improved"....you know, because it's been so bad I need a good laugh. He took over a bad team, made it worse and "took" it back to bad (almost impossible to NOT improve from 2009 anyway)...wow, I'm impressed...NOT. Man, the guy scammed you hard...he should start a business
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1) Hypothesis: You wouldn't know a fact if it bit you in the ass.
2) Fact: No one asked for your help.
Good ending to that "Facts"-farce....boy, you're way out there...that has been the worst APOLOGY manifest I've ever read...it's quite sad
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Do you think if we had played the 49ers instead of the Falcons and the Panthers instead of the Ravens and the Bills instead of the Steelers that we might have a different record? Maybe?
Honestly I'm not sure, it would have increased the chances, sure...but we lost to KC and TB...those 2 teams aren't much more talented than the 49ers and Panthers. You guys act as if it was a LOCK, if we would have...other teams look at US as the LOCK-win, you know  ...because we are as bad
I posted the BOTTOM LINE stats of all top 10 picking teams for this season....and what I see is: we are going nowhere, we're treading water...and we have much more stop gaps that are playing decent or better for us than both TB and KC (Brown, Fujita, Coleman, Womack, Wallace), who are younger overall and have more elite talent down the road....I'm not even seeing the long term "process"
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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3) Fact: We're ranked 22nd in total defense this year -vs- 31st last year. 26th -vs- 29th in passing D. 19th -vs- 28th in rushing D. On offense we're 28th -vs- 32 in total offense. 23rd -vs- 32 in passing, and 19th -vs- 8th in rushing. That is improvement in every category except rushing.
as I mentioned to Django, I will mention to you.
Please use YPC for rushing rankings and YPA for passing rankings. Neither is perfect (far from it), but both are much better indicators of the passing and rushing effectiveness than purely going by yards per gmae which is what the above indicates.
Also, the Pts/Game and Pts/Game-Against are important indicators as well.
#gmstrong
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Cleveland Browns waive James
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