|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
Eric Wright is a prototypical "Zone Corner" thats what he is, thats what he is best at, and thats why Romeo Drafted him...Romeo and Bellichik both run zone coverage systems...Romeo is running a NE Zone in KC, the same he ran here, the same Bellichik runs in New England.
if we let him go...Money is Wright goes to NE or KC and plays very very very well and we look like fools...Wright would start for NE Opposite McCourty...Bellichik will leap at the chance to nab Wright he is a top notch prototype Parcells Zone Corner...and Bellichik is no fool and will laugh at us on the way to another Lombardi and it will be just our luck Wright has 2 INTS 1 returned for a TD and ends up Super Bowl MVP for the Pats...
Rob Ryan a mostly man scheme...the problem is we have no pass rush and guys get toasted, but it compounds the fact Wright is a better zone corner...Wright is the best zone corner on this team...he is better in zone then Haden is as well, however Haden is the better man-to-man corner out of the two.
Fact is..on that INT that Haden had..it should have been 6 points for the Phins..the receiver had to stop and come back to the ball..Henne threw the worst absolutely god awful under thrown pass i have ever seen...he had Haden beat by 4 steps AND Haden was spun around
Haden got lucky on that pass..nothing more..he is lucky Henne threw a god awful inexcusable under thrown ball....the only reason that wasn't 6 points is because Henne severly under threw the ball, because that Phins receiver had Haden beat like a rented mule.
Now you all are talking about hole in "Wrights game" I already see quite a few holes in Haden's game...BIG ones
1. Haden gets spun around too easy...that no name from ther Panthers spun him around.
2. This kid from the Phins had him beaten badly and spun around
3. The kid got flat out torched for a TD against the Bucs
Eric Wright was further along his rookie year then Haden is now...I see holes in Haden's game...big ones...there is reason teams kept throwing at Haden...because they see the same holes i see
just wait till we play Big Ben, and Flacco later in the year...they won't "horribly underthrow" those passes where Haden was beaten like a mule.....
if Haden don't clean things up...he is going to make Eric Wright look good...I want Haden to do well, and I want to keep Wright....but we have to be fair to both of these corners
we need a pass rush....Wright and Haden are plenty good enough to win with if we have a pass rush, but I am telling you...if we don't get a pass rush and prevent these deep bombs from developing 50% of the time we are going to get torched.
I seen Haden get beatly badly by the Phins and the Panthers...both should have been TD and were just badly underthrown balls...badly....if either of those teams had even an average QB there TD's....
Haden was beaten by atleast 4 steps twice in the last two games...teams are testing him deep...and the oppourtunities have been there against Haden deep...and teams are going to keep throwing at him...the difference is Flacco and Big Ben won't underthrow those balls like Henne and Clausen did
just trying to keep things in perspective folks...we really need a pass rush before we can make any sound judgement...Haden is a rookie he will grow...Wright is young too and he will grow...Brown has been worse then any of the 3...we need a pass rush..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,468
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,468 |
The hole in Wright's game is that he can't tackle. Haden has had mistakes, but you can easily chalk those up to being a rookie.
I would say that comparing the two is unfair for a number of reasons (Wright is a vet while Haden is a rookie, and the two have surprisingly different skill-sets despite playing the same position).
You are right that Haden got very lucky on that INT, but I'm going to disregard that. When a guy is flying around all game and making plays all over the place, you can't hold it against him that he got one lucky break.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Are you talking about Haden or Wright (honest question since I never noticed Wright out there all game)?
I'm talking about Wright here. Haden made a lot of great plays (apart from getting beaten deep by Hartline) but Wright was like a jacket on whoever he lined up against. He was definitely playing with an attitude we don't usually see. Absolutely beating up the guys he was lined up against. Those of you that recorded it (especially if you have the Sunday Ticket short cut) I recommend watching him. Completely in the guys' hip pockets. There was one play when they were in zone (he had the shallow left-center zone) where they threw out into the flat to Bess when Brown was in off zone (deep 1/3 maybe) but that was the closest Henne got to throwing in his direction all day. I was really impress{d and disappointed nobody here seemed to notice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825 |
Your double-standard is hilarious...
Wright gets beat: it's the safety and D-lines fault.
Haden gets beat deep: he has holes in his coverage. No mention of the fact that it was a double move (takes a long time to pull off, where was the pressure?) And where was his safety help?
Biggest thing I noticed about Haden's int this weekend: he still turned around and found the ball. Wright usually just runs at the receiver with his hands out and never locates the ball.
But still, you seem to forget the main arguement against Wright. A wise man once said football is about 2 things: blocking and tackling. And Wright cannot do one of those (probably both haha).
Last edited by CribbsHero; 12/06/10 11:12 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,660 |
J / C
So Haden got beat deep??? The only play I saw he RECOVERED to make the play.
I think that is one of the attributes you look for with your DB's....is it not.
The youngster had a Hotel, Echo Lema Lema of a game if you want to talk about what happened, then I would suggest to do so and not about what could have been.
JM2Cents
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,074
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,074 |
Kid showed some stuff, that's for sure.
The 'Phins tried to pick on him all day long, and he didn't crack. Late in the game, he was in on tackles away from his receiver, and making good ones, to boot. There was a stretch there when Gumble and Dierdorf were talking him up as a play was unfolding. Joe made a great stick-tackle, and 'Dorf said... "and who else is there but- [pause for effect] Joe Haden."
When a rook gets love like that, he's definitely put himself on the NFL radar.
Now, let's be honest here... it's early- VERY early in his career. I still remember the love flowed to Leigh Bodden just a few years ago... and when was the last time we had a "Lehigh Bolden" sighting? BUT- based on what I've seen in the past few games, Browns FO plucked themselves a gem from a pile of stones.
Oh, and btw... Eric Wright played a fine game of football hizdamself. In lastt week's gameday forum, I expressed the hope that his injury time off would help him to get his head back together. It might take a few more games to determine whether that wish came true, but I definitely saw glimpses of last year's EWright on Sunday.
just another .02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
Quote:
Your double-standard is hilarious...
Wright gets beat: it's the safety and D-lines fault.
Haden gets beat deep: he has holes in his coverage. No mention of the fact that it was a double move (takes a long time to pull off, where was the pressure?) And where was his safety help?
Biggest thing I noticed about Haden's int this weekend: he still turned around and found the ball. Wright usually just runs at the receiver with his hands out and never locates the ball.
But still, you seem to forget the main arguement against Wright. A wise man once said football is about 2 things: blocking and tackling. And Wright cannot do one of those (probably both haha).
No its not a double standard, I think you misunderstand me.
I said we "need a pass rush" the other teams QB should not have 6 or 7 seconds to stand back there and let a route like that develop where you put Haden, or Wright, or <insert name here> into that position to begin with.
We get no pressure on our 4 man rush...none, zero zip, ziltch...so we have to blitz...that leaves our DB out to dry even more so true with our corners.
Rob Ryan doesn't get a pass from me, in fact I have come to the conclusion that Ryan is more of the problem then Mangini or even Daboll
Ryan's Blitz schemes suck, if he is going to bring it he could at least be somewhat creative about it.
Ryan NEVER:
1. overloads the left or right side and brings it like Lebeau.
2. overloads the left and then drops the left back and brings two blitzers from the right.
3. the Double spark plug (where you send both ILB up the middle gaps on blitzes, sometimes delayed blitzes) like The Steelers and other teams do.
4. he never stunts or crashes his DL..crash in, rush wide, do something...along with the blitz. however he don't
Nope instead its the same Corner, or safety blitz that gets picked up followed by an all out blitz that usually fails.
Also the fact this team has showed god awful form in tackling and can't even tackle properly falls squarely at the feet of Rob Ryan...the guy Mangini is paying to ensure his team can actually play defense...they can't tackle.
I have seen progress from Daboll from last year to this year...i can see why Brett Farve raved about him and liked him so much...Daboll has shown progress with what he has, but this Defense can't even tackle anyone
if any of our coordinators need to be fired its Rob Ryan not Brian Daboll...that terrible tackling in what the last 4 games at least is at Ryan's feet and its unacceptable.....I have seen Ryan for what he is which is a shill....I really think if Eric wants to succeed here he will have to get rid of Ryan and go back to what he knows has worked for him in the past (The Bellichik/Parcells 3-4 system) and not this convulted Ryan im gonna blitz but never get there show you crazy look out smart himself i can't tackle defense.
Also Rex Ryan's crazy looks and blitzes looked real good last night as Brady carved up that that like a Thanksgiving Turkey....if we keep Ryan for another year just you wait, you will see Ryan for the shill he is next year....you will see it soon enough...at least Daboll is making progress considering he had never called played before coming here...Ryan on the other hands had a few years as a Dc before coming here...and he has regressed...it is what it is...his schemes leave a lot to be deisred, not to mention he leaves the middle of the field wide open all game long...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
if any of our coordinators need to be fired its Rob Ryan not Brian Daboll...
Ok, Rob Ryan is far from perfect. But our defense is miles ahead of our offense. I will give you props for sticking to your guns in the face of seemingly indisputable visual evidence though (JAX and MIA games specifically since they are most recent).
Here are our overall numbers:
Defense
Pass Defense 7.1 YPA (#18)
Run Defense 4.1 (#11)
INTs 18 (#2)
Fumble Recoveries 4 (#21)
Sacks 24 (#17)
Pts Allowed Per Game 19.9 (#12)
So, we're pretty good at stopping the run and getting INTs while limiting total points (which is the most important).
Not great at getting sacks or stopping the pass (RELATED) or getting fumbles.
And the offense:
Offense
Pass Offense 6.9 YPA (#18)
Run Offense 4.0 YPC (#17)
INTs 11 (#13)
Fumbles 8 (#24)
Sacks Given Up 27 (#19)
Pts Per Game 19.1 (#26)
We're good at limiting INTs (thanks in part to Colt. though the ones we have had from Jake/Seneca tend to go the other way quickly for TDs).
We're not great at limiting sacks, fumbles, or gaining yards in any form (Hillis has struggled at times largely because he is the sole focus). And, we are not good at scoring points (even when the defense sets them up with TOs).
Sorry, but Rob Ryan is not the problem here. We have bigger issues at hand. I understand we need a DE, ILB-thumper, FS on defense, but those needs are nothing compared to our urgent need for WR-1 on offense. Our OL has played okay and that is despite injuries, so I see the need on the right side to be less than some others do.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
Those numbers are very deceiving and don't tell nearly half the real story.
I have seen this team give up 3rd and 15 or more a few times already this year...no way your going to sell me this D is any good or Ryan is a good coordinator when he has given up more 3rd and 15+ this year then most other coordinators give up in 3 or 4 seasons..
Also we blew leads to the Bucs, Chiefs, Ravens, Jets and Jags this year...there is 5 potential wins...well we will be realistic...4 wins....suddenly were 9 and 3 today if we had a D that wasn't ranked in the 20s
this D CAN NOT stop anyone when it matters, they can't get off the field on 3rd downs...many cite the high 350 rushing attempts against our D...well our D don't do much to get many 3 and outs at all..the D has to get itself off the field with stops.
the talent isn't quite there, but Ryan is an abysmal coordinator...he will be exposed for the shill he really is next year because my prayers won't get answered that he gets offered a head coaching job out of here because him leaving would be the biggest favor he could ever do for Mangini and anyone in this city that wants a Competent Defensive unit...
Say what you will about Daboll but he has improved tons over what he had last year...my god the fact our pass and run offenses are ranked in the teens with WR who are still developing right now would be #3 receivers at best tells me Daboll is getting more out of what little he has compared to Ryan
what does Daboll really have? McCoy, Watson, and Hillis, Moore, Thomas, Mack, and Steiny. 3 of those guys being lineman?
Look what Ryan has:
Rubin
Rogers
Fujita
Haden
Wright
Elam
Ward
Bernard
GoCong
Ryan has a lot more to work with then Daboll does...Daboll has 3 good OL, 1 RB, 1 TE and 1 QB...thats pretty much it...
Rubin and Rogers would both be Pro Bowlers else where (Rogers was under Romeo) hes got a 1st and 2nd rd pick at DB(Haden and Ward) and he has a 2 traded veterans in GoCong and Sheldon Brown, and Eric Wright who is decent and would have had Dqwell Jackson (Who has played at a Pro Bowl level the last 2 years) on Defense.
Rob Ryan has a lot more to work with then Daboll does...Daboll has no WR pretty much, a RB, a rookie QB and a few OL....its not even a contest....i really think a better D Coordinator could get more out of these guys then Rob..I have a huncy feeling Rob is a shill and it will be verified next year with more talent if he is still here....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
my god the fact our pass and run offenses are ranked in the teens with WR who are still developing right now would be #3 receivers at best tells me Daboll is getting more out of what little he has compared to Ryan
These are the players you listed that Ryan has to prove he has so much more talent to work with than Daboll...
Rubin - 3rd year 6th round pick
Rogers - can be dominant ... similar to Joe Thomas
Fujita - 9th year roll player with his 4th team
Haden - ROOKIE
Wright - I thought he was awful and couldn't tackle?
Elam - 5th year roll player with his 3rd team
Ward - ROOKIE
Bernard - 2nd year UDFA
GoCong - 5th year part time castoff from Philly
So I have to ask, why do MoMass and Robo get to develop in their second year but the guys that play defense are just good? I'll throw it out there, isn't it possible that Ryan is just getting MORE from his players and that is why you think guys like Rubin and Benard and Fujita are good and why you think Ward and Haden are good already... but everybody on the offense isn't as good or is still developing.. couldn't that be Daboll's FAULT that you don't think his players are as good? Just wondering.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,074
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,074 |
see... that's the problem with guys like you, DC... ....you don't have enough 'one-sided coins' in your pocket to ever understand.... 
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Those numbers are very deceiving and don't tell nearly half the real story.
well, as noted, I used those numbers as logic seemed impenetrable to you from the visual evidence of watching the games. it seems you are also impermeable to numbers. kudos.
Quote:
I have seen this team give up 3rd and 15 or more a few times already this year...no way your going to sell me this D is any good or Ryan is a good coordinator when he has given up more 3rd and 15+ this year then most other coordinators give up in 3 or 4 seasons..
hyperbole.
let's look at it this way since actual linkable sites don't keep track of how many big plays are given up by down and distance.
total big plays given up through the air this year:
20+ 37 (#17)
40+ 5 (#10)
now, how many big plays has our offense made (also, through the air)?
20+ 32 (#24)
40+ 5 (#20)
or, is it 3rd down that really has you. Let's check 3rd down conversion %'s
Defense 41% (#23)
Offense 37% (#20)
So yes, the defense has major problems stopping teams on 3rd down. I agree that we need to fix that ASAP.
Quote:
Also we blew leads to the Bucs, Chiefs, Ravens, Jets and Jags this year...there is 5 potential wins...well we will be realistic...4 wins....suddenly were 9 and 3 today if we had a D that wasn't ranked in the 20s
as noted, we don't. our "yardage" defense is ranked in the 20s because our offense puts them on the field a ton. our YPC and YPA defense are both much better than that as shown above.
now, our defense blew leads. yeah. no argument. like I said, they could be better. but, that's a 2-way street.
our offense could have put games away instead of being inept (TB, KC 2nd halves. JAX 6 TOs and only 10pts), or responded with scores of their own to win it back (TB, Jets).
Quote:
this D CAN NOT stop anyone when it matters, they can't get off the field on 3rd downs...many cite the high 350 rushing attempts against our D...well our D don't do much to get many 3 and outs at all..the D has to get itself off the field with stops.
and when they do, they often find themselves back on the field. like I said, the defense isn't great yet, but they are ahead of the offense.
Quote:
the talent isn't quite there, but Ryan is an abysmal coordinator...he will be exposed for the shill he really is next year because my prayers won't get answered that he gets offered a head coaching job out of here because him leaving would be the biggest favor he could ever do for Mangini and anyone in this city that wants a Competent Defensive unit...
amazing. truly amazing.
Quote:
Say what you will about Daboll but he has improved tons over what he had last year...my god the fact our pass and run offenses are ranked in the teens with WR who are still developing right now would be #3 receivers at best tells me Daboll is getting more out of what little he has compared to Ryan
I agree Daboll has improved. He still frustrates me on some points, but really if we don't have a great offense, the OC is going to as hindsight (or guesstimation too) is always better than foresight.
Not sure why you don't think Rob Ryan has improved too though. Do you think this year's defense isn't better than last years? Really?
Quote:
what does Daboll really have? McCoy, Watson, and Hillis, Moore, Thomas, Mack, and Steiny. 3 of those guys being lineman?
OL is the 2nd most important piece after QB. And, you named 6/11 positions (w/ 2 at TE). I'd add Vickers and that makes 7/11.
Then, add in that the right side of the OL with Yates/Womack looked pretty good and our OL overall (outside the JAX game) has looked pretty decent despite a ton of injuries on the right side.
Our WRs are a major issue. We all agree on that one. But, QB/RB/TE/OL all seem pretty stable going forward.
Quote:
Look what Ryan has:
Rubin
Rogers
Fujita
Haden
Wright
Elam
Ward
Bernard
GoCong
Ryan has a lot more to work with then Daboll does...Daboll has 3 good OL, 1 RB, 1 TE and 1 QB...thats pretty much it...
Wright has disappointed for the most part, Fujita is gone for the year, Rogers has been hurt and only just now is starting to re-establish himself, and Gocong, Benard and Elam? Really?
Quote:
Rubin and Rogers would both be Pro Bowlers else where (Rogers was under Romeo)
well, they both play NT here at times, so it'll be hard for both of them to be probowlers here, yes. Rubin was on the ballot, let's see if he can win that popularity contest. he's played pretty darn good and I think earned it.
Quote:
hes got a 1st and 2nd rd pick at DB(Haden and Ward)
true. but, they are still rookies you know.
Quote:
and he has a 2 traded veterans in GoCong and Sheldon Brown, and Eric Wright who is decent and would have had Dqwell Jackson (Who has played at a Pro Bowl level the last 2 years) on Defense.
he doesn't have D'Qwell and likely won't next year either. Yes, Gocong and Shelden are decent. Are ether really good?
We traded for Gocong and Shelden on defense. We traded for Hillis on offense. I think the offense got the better end there though all were needed.
We signed Fujita for defense, Watson for offense. Fujita was more important for sure, but Watson has been good for us too.
Quote:
Rob Ryan has a lot more to work with then Daboll does...Daboll has no WR pretty much, a RB, a rookie QB and a few OL....its not even a contest....i really think a better D Coordinator could get more out of these guys then Rob..I have a huncy feeling Rob is a shill and it will be verified next year with more talent if he is still here....
so, we should have a much better defense with a different DC. you are free to that opinion. i do not share it.
and yes, our defense is ahead of our offense. some of it is scheme, some of it is talent. the OC/DC gets credit when the talent is good, they take blame when the talent is bad. it comes with the job.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
Also we blew leads to the Bucs, Chiefs, Ravens, Jets and Jags this year...there is 5 potential wins...well we will be realistic...4 wins....suddenly were 9 and 3 today if we had a D that wasn't ranked in the 20s
This argument drives me absolutely insane.. we had a 14-10 halftime lead against Tampa Bay and our offense produced zero, zilch, nada, nothing in the second half.. and I'll throw this out there too, 7 of their points came on a 3 yard drive because our offense gave them a gift at the end of the half.. our defense essentially gave up 10 freakin' points all day and gets blamed for the loss.... unreal... I suppose if we kicked a FG on our opening drive and then lost it would be on our defense for blowing a lead.. 
Same for the Chiefs, we have a 14-10 lead at halftime, our offense gets back on the bus and leaves the stadium and because our defense can't make a 4 point halftime lead stand up with no help, they get blamed... oh and in this game that we lost by 2, our offense also gave up a pick 6.. the defense essentially gave up 9 points..
The Ravens game.. hey, at least the offense squeeked out a second half touchdown in this one... and same for the Jets game..
I suppose the defense gets no credit for singlehandedly winning the Saints game or holding the best quarterback in the NFL to 14 points either... 
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 11,849 |
I'm w/ you DC... the defense is fine.. it's the offense that needs to step it up when called upon...
It's almost impossible for any defense to keep the opposing team from scoring any points...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 825 |
Yes, now it's Ryan's fault that Wright can't tackle...haha.
Tackling is something that is taught in midget football: head up, eyes on the belly-button, wrap, and drive. I don't expect NFL defensive coordinators to teach players how to tackle. That should be already be known to most NFL players.
And if you think the defense is bad this year, what do you call our defense the last few years (before Ryan and Mangini?) 'Cause it was a lot worse than the defense I've seen on the field this year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
hough the ones we have had from Jake/Seneca tend to go the other way quickly for TDs)
Let's be fair here... Seneca has thrown 1 pick-6 and 2 total INTs. He also has the lowest INT per pass rate (and the highest TD per pass rate) on the team.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
hough the ones we have had from Jake/Seneca tend to go the other way quickly for TDs)
Let's be fair here... Seneca has thrown 1 pick-6 and 2 total INTs. He also has the lowest INT per pass rate (and the highest TD per pass rate) on the team.
I thought I was being fair. I noted that we don't throw many picks, but Jake and Seneca tend to have theirs taken back to the house when they do throw them.
Seneca has only thrown 2 picks, and 1 of them was taken back. 50% are pick-6's.
Jake has thrown 6 picks, and 3 of them were taken back (well, vs-TB to the 3 yd line that was then punched in). again, 50% figure.
small sample size? of course. but senec'as pick-6 hurt us that game as much as Jake's have hurt us.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Eric Wright
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/FL_Dawg/Logo5_1.gif){kind=logo}
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/6WV79RV/Browns-Coach-Sig.png)