DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A look at the Browns Roster

Ray Lewis was a GREAT 4-3 LB. In fact, he prefers playing the 4-3 because he doesn't get hit as much. He's a rare athlete who can play either defense though.

Jackson is not a 4-3 MLB. Never was, never will be. (Not an effective one anyway)

You're right about Gocong. Regardless, Philly traded him to us because they felt that he was worthless in the 4-3. Why would we expect him to suddenly blossom in ours?

As far as needing to turn over the entire front 7 .... maybe ... but not this year. We had a defense that finished 13th in points allowed, and 22nd in yards allowed. The final game really prevented a much better overall standing too.

Do we need to blow that up? Only if we want to. Add a DE and a pass rushing LB and ths defense would probably be a top 10 scoring defense. Instead, we'll probably blow it up and be a bottom 10.

Not only that, but many of our core special teams players are ...... LBs. When we start cutting LBs that no longer fit, then we start cutting away at the basis of a very good special teams unit.

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Jackson is not a 4-3 MLB. Never was, never will be. (Not an effective one anyway)

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I said this two posts up, "I think if Jackson is re-signed (big IF) he would be moved to outside linebacker along with Fujita."

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You're right about Gocong. Regardless, Philly traded him to us because they felt that he was worthless in the 4-3. Why would we expect him to suddenly blossom in ours?

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I said this about Gocong, "Gocong played linebacker for the Eagles (unsuccessfully)." And "He wasn't very good, but he played linebacker."

Like I said. I think we agree on most things.

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As far as needing to turn over the entire front 7 .... maybe ... but not this year. We had a defense that finished 13th in points allowed, and 22nd in yards allowed.

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You yourself have said that Rogers is done. Robaire Smith has season-ending back surgery as a 33-year old defensive end. Brian Schaefering is not starting caliber. Kenyon Coleman will be 32-years old next season and was only average this year anyway.

We have no pass rush. Roth was ineffective with only 3.5 sacks (he was alright against the run). Bernard improved to 7.5 sacks, but he is only a situational pass rusher as of right now. Bowens and Barton are old, slow, stop-gaps.

So going into this off-season we need at least two defensive linemen and two linebackers.

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The final game really prevented a much better overall standing too.

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As much as I'd like to forget about that last game, it still counts.

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Add a DE and a pass rushing LB and ths defense would probably be a top 10 scoring defense. Instead, we'll probably blow it up and be a bottom 10.

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Finding the impact players you are talking about is very hard. Players like that rarely come through free agency. Drafting a difference maker like that would be great, but I wouldn't expect immediate results. And trading for that player would just take our draft picks that we need to build the team.

We need a lot new players regardless of what defense we play. I would rather add young players who have to potential to grow then keep playing old dudes and have a mediocre defense.

Here we go again if the Browns change over to the 4-3. Need time to get players to fit the system..... GOD, I am sick of this CRAP. We have some players that can play in the 3-4 and hold down the fort until better talent can be brought in to make them better but NO, blow it up and start from scratch. Wonder why the Browns are the laugh of the league?

Other teams seem to be able to find impact players for their front 7 on defense. We seem to be one of only a few who really struggle doing so. This has been a pattern going back since 1999 really.

We need impact players no matter which defense we go with. We need an impact DL and an impact LB in either scheme, and probably 4 or 5 more DL if we go to a 4-3. We have to "replace" people who don't exist in order to go to a 4-3.

We'll agree to disagree on Jackson. I think that he is a below average 3-4 ILB. I don't think that he will ever be a successful OLB in any scheme.

I think that this defense, with an impact player at LB and DE could be very good. If we switch to a 4-3, we'll need everything on DL and LB, including new backups.

I think the problem is that the past 2 coaches were more comfortable putting vets that they could kinda trust out on the field, compared to young guys who could be a risk. Rac did it, Gini sure did it. Gini did it day one with the trade to NY Jets.

No rookie can develop under those circumstances. Playing time shows to me whether or not a player should be on the roster.

Mangini put Mack on the field from day 1. He put Ward on the field from day 1. He put Haden on the field in a more limited role because he had 2 veteran (and previously effective) players in front of him. Haden played the 2nd half of the season extensively, and mostly as a starter. McCoy started as a rookie. Benard played quite a bit as a rookie, and as a 2nd year player. (when not injured) Hardesty was in line to be the starter at RB as a rookie. He played both Robiske and Massaquoi as rookies.

Mangini played a lot of rookies. He didn't necessarily just hand them playing time, but he did play quite a few rookies and 2nd year players quite a bit.

What rookies or other young players do you think Mangini passed over in favor of veterans?

Hmm in your opinion I have it wrong about Elam, a safety that has as many passes defensed for the year as good safeties have in a game. He does offer run support but is often not in the same zip code in pass support. I will stick with my opinion as you will with yours. now the Rookie shows real promise and some ball skills.

We have no impact players because we have hired unskilled GMs selecting poor players and mediocre coaching never coached tham up. heckert is so far above what we have had. Think about it Clark to Garcia to Opie to Kokinis to Heckert. We Finally hired a guy who KNOWS what he is doing. I look for another solid draft and free agency period From Holmgren heckert.
I also like the ability of Mike Holmgren to admit his mistakes: I consider jake, Wallace, Pashos horrible reaches and doubt any of the three stays...maybe Wallace. We desperately need a RT and I am sure that we will get one.

I don't think Wallace was a reach because he was brought in here to be a backup.

This is a stretch, but I don't think Pashos was a reach because they had to know that he was an injury risk. I'd guess they knew that they were taking a gamble on Pashos, and were not surprised when he landed on IR. I think this will be confirmed when they address the RT spot again this offseason.

Just my opinion. Jake... well there really isn't two ways to look at it...

He made a believer out of all of us in the preseason. When it counted, though, he reverted back to evil Jake, and then some.

I think we're on the verge of having a very nice core for this team. We will have a likely drastic change to our roster.

Right now, I'd argue our offense is: Peyton Hillis, Colt McCoy (maybe) and Benjamin Watson. Throw in the O-Line because other than some less than stellar games they were solid.

ALL The WR's are expendable. Even Cribbs, nobody knows if Shurmur's going to fall in love with this guy, maybe he gets cut back to PR/KR, maybe he gets an increased WR responsibility. MoMass, Robo, Stuckey, all the rest, they are expendable, and I expect we will be bringing in guys to compete for these jobs.

TE... we're okay, I don't think it's an area of need by any means.

OL - I want a RT, I want another young player, maybe a guard that can give this line some vitality. I think we need to start thinking about ol' Steinbach's replacement too.

The D is at a bit of a crossroads. Do we go 4-3? Do we stay 3-4?

I think if we do go 4-3. We would need to overhaul the D-Line. Think Ruben and Rogers could start a whole game side by side, we'd need a third DT to keep Rogers fresh. We would need a DE to start opposite of Coleman (if he's back) and we would need some depth.

Linebackers? We've got Linebackers, too many for a 4-3...

The secondary still needs another starter, maybe at CB, maybe at S. Eventually at both, unless Eric Wright can find his confidence again.

K? Phil Dawson might be on the outs...

Do we start looking for a replacement for Cribbs on kick returns. I would like to chalk up his "down" year in special teams due to his increased WR responsibilities as well as injuries pretty much keeping him under 100% for most of the year.

The roster is okay, and if we can have another good draft, it will only continue to get better. We need a few key FA's i think, and hopefully like last year. Heckert can help give Shurmur the guys he will need to make this team better. I think after the draft we'll have a different outlook on where the team is headed and a lot of the uncertainties will clear up.

Trying to forsee some of this offseasons roster moves. The changes in coaching staff and philosophy should demand a significant change in players.

Switching to a 4-3 Defense and a WCO... A HC with a pass first attitude, a DC with a small and fast approach to the D and an OC(TBA) with a reduced role focusing on what I assume would be developing Colt McCoy.

Add to all of this the fact that trades involving players are out until a new CBA is in place, along with the general feeling that neither side wants a lockout and we have to think that a shortend period for roster moves is coming.

Will we strip the team down to the core of a dozen or so that are considered better than average and start bringing in anybody that fits the new philosophies? Will we try to change the players positions to try and make them fit (like Roth to DE or Brown to Safety)?

Will any of our WR's make the cut? Will we address the O-line? Will we abandon the power run? Will we resign our FA's?

It might be too early to talk about these things but I'm a little tired of all the fighting over the coaching changes threads and would like to discuss what everbody thinks we'll see happen roster wise.

defense needs some more love on the front seven. As far as WCO offense goes, Colt IMO is prototypical for it, same with Hillis. WR is a big question mark, OL a bit less so because alot of our issues were due to injury on the right side, although I feel you draft OL every year

We may see another defensive heavy draft this year, only with more moves toward the front 7, and a WR targetted in one of the earlier rounds that shows promise. I hate investing more into WR because we spent 2 picks on it a short time ago, but its clear we dont have a dedicated #1 at the position and I think for colt to grow he needs more weapons.

j/c

Although I strongly prefer the 3-4, I'm having a hard time seeing where we are any worse off switching to a 4-3. We don't have a pass rush either way.
Our LBs need upgraded either way.
Our DL needs upgraded either way.
Our DBs need upgraded either way.

My biggest concern is that the 3-4 allows for more disguising, which allows some compensation with good coaching/game plan for inadequate talent.

The 4-3 is going to be more straight up mano-y-mano.

With additional talent, I optimistically expect the defense next year to be at best about the same as this year, but I do expect to get totally wiped across the field a few more times.

Do we have anyone now who's perfect for a 3-4 who we'll have to throw away switching to a 4-3? Maybe Rubin less effective as a DT than a NT?

It's funny to me that in this thread it is clear the Browns are a talent void team with several needs. Despite this, Mangini was supposed to win more than 5 games. LOL. This team had good coaching and lack of talent so we canned the coaches. I agree having all of the coaches on the same page is important but I'm not confident we will have better coaching than Mangini provided. If Mangini coached the Steelers he would be preparing to play the Jets right now. If Tomlin coached the Browns he would be preparing popcorn to watch that game.

You think DQ is our best player?
He might not even our best linebacker.

I've said this once, and I'll say it again. With Mangini and Daboll, our passing game would never be sophisticated enough to get to a Super Bowl. That's the one area of coaching that they are just never going to be fully up to par on. The modern NFL requires that you have the ability to come from behind. You can't just run the full house backfield with two TEs for four yards and a cloud of dust while banking on your defense to hold the opposition under two scores.

They don't have the track record or experience of working with and developing QBs that our president and head coach have (as well as consultant Gil Haskell), their playcalling was the professional equivalent of Tressell-ball, and the routes are horribly coordinated. A stamp that Gini's teams have had was the inability to come back from behind. I feel better with our current FO and coaching staff (albeit incomplete now) in terms of putting together an offense that can score more explosively and quickly.

I don't disagree. I just hope they got the right guys this time and the fans and media can be patient. Nobody wants to hear rebuild but that's what it is. Again. We won't be successful until we have talented players that have been with the same coaches and system for longer than one or two years. This team will struggle again this year. I just don't want to blow it up again and hear calls for Cowher or Gruden at the end of the year.