DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Pat Shurmur introductory press conference...

Man, what a fun post to read... and it brought a fresh perspective to the discussion.

I liked the analogy in the first paragraph, as well.

I hope you're right about the change in approach- it makes a certain amount of sense, framed as you did. It would be kind of cool to see the Browns embarass the bullies with something different.

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I'm personally glad to see us going the route of constructing something more organic and of our own stamp compared to the rest of our division.

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I agree with Clem. Very good take and well written.

Honestly, I scrolled past your post initially because those long paragraphs are tough for me to read. But respecting Clem's opinion on such matters I went back and read it fully.

You caught my attention and make a ton of good sense. We have been unsuccessfully trying to be someone else and that's probably the toughest thing there is to do in any venture as your examples illustrate.

Nice perspective,, thanks for the post..

but the Steeler/Raven model has proven successful and sustainable for the playoffs...the Steelers and Ravens ALWAYS go deep into the playoffs when they get there.

Its hard to argue with that plan, and i feel like we were headed there, and now its changing and that bums me out.

but...again...Wouldnt it be great to just outphysical the Steelers or Ravens...beat them at their own game? It just doesnt seem like it makes sense to change. Look at the teams in the Championships now...Packers, Bears, Steelers, Jets...

All high intensity defenses that bully the QB and 2 (half) of which have power running games. the packers and bears more rely on the passing game so i can see how that would be successful, but i honestly feel like the Super Bowl winner will come from the AFC this year.

either way...dominant D is the way to win. all 4 teams have one

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the Steelers and Ravens ALWAYS go deep into the playoffs

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Maybe this is why we can't get a Big name HC, but just some start-up kid, who looks lost. I can kind of see why someone like Fox or Gruden would not take a team, that has so little talent and two major competitors that make it deep into the playoffs each year. He would have to play them both twice a year, ouch...Maybe Shurmur is the only guy who would take the job, and was still see by Mike as a good coach. I got to ask myself, how much money would it take to get a big name coach, to come be the HC of Cleveland with our history of head coaches going down in flames. Would any amount be enough?

But maybe this is the only way to get to the top, build long term and slowly. I bet it will work, but I also bet the fan's will not wait. I expect to see "Bring back Mangini" signs after we are 4-12 or 6-10 next year.
But Mike said something that should give us all hope "We can't keep starting over and over every two or three years" I love that statement, and it's the only way we will win.

The problem is... HE SAID THAT AFTER HE HIT THE RESET BUTTON!

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The problem is... HE SAID THAT AFTER HE HIT THE RESET BUTTON!

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Try seeing it this way, he said that after he made his first start.

Last season was not his beginning in building the team. He stayed with Mangini for the reason he stated last season, it's not fair to any coach to get only one year and that he hoped the team had turned the corner seeing as how they finished out with 4 wins.

Unfortunately there was no turning the corner. It kept going down the same street it was on before winning out at the end.

So Holmgren made his FIRST selection of a head coach and then made that statement.

I also noticed that Holmgren said some things in the presser that made me say "Then why did you get rid of the old coach?"

Like:

LinkieDinkieDooDoo


(On how close this team is to competing to win the division)- “Those types of answers are difficult. We were in just about every game except the last one and that included the Pittsburgh game in my opinion and our two Baltimore games we were in. Had chances to win a number of games this year, I thought we were that close. I thought we made strides. Now a field goal here, a play here, or this and that there maybe our record would have been different. A little bit closer to those fellas but they have set the bar in our division there’s no question about that. For us to get where we want to get we have to get closer to them. Are we making strides? I believe we are. Are we there yet? We’ll see but I know our games this year, if those are any indication then we’re a little closer than we were two years ago. As the building process continues, you take positive steps forward and hopefully that shows in the record because that’s what everyone sees and that’s what everyone understands.”

I mean ... if we were in every game ...... with a play here or a play there being the difference .... on a team that still needs a talent infusion ...... a team that was "making strides" ...... then why did we get rid of the guy who was leading that?

He also said: "I think we took some strides last year. "

I came away from Holmgren's part of the presser wondering just why he fired Mangini. I mean, he knew the situation with personnel and the schedule the team would be playing .... the team made progress and strides ..... they were in almost every game, and a play here or there (with maybe a better player here or there) and we could have won a lot more game ....... so he fired the coach so we can start over.

Then we also get into the core of the team .... but it's going to be a gut job to get the right players who fit the new systems in ....

It just seems to me that Holmgren maybe thought that he would be able to get Gruden after a year off, so he kept Mangini with that idea in mind ..... then when he couldn't, he took Shurmur as a guy who at least had the same philosophy as Holmgren on offense. (defense doesn't matter because he will have nothing at all to do with the defense)

Maybe he thought we made strides and at the same time felt that was as far as Mangini could take us?

Your incessant moaning, the comparing of stats in an attempt to discredit the new guy and pump up the old guy, and the looking for anything that you can latch onto to show Mangini was a good coach is not going to bring Mangini back.

He's gone. Get over it. Move on.

"I thought we made strides. Now a field goal here, a play here, or this and that there maybe our record would have been different. "


The bolded part, I feel, answers your question. I'll not rehash my issues of in-game management. You've heard it all from me before. Well, not all of it but enough to make the point.

I believe that like me, Holmgren saw close games lost over decision making mistakes that had nothing to do with talent or even scheme.

All I'm saying is that much of what he said was what Mangini was actually good at.

Look, I hope that Shurmur turns out to be a great coach and takes us to multiple Super Bowls. Man, you have NO idea now much I hope that. I just don't think that coach search, from my perspective, was handled very well. Holmgren has double talked his way around stuff in such a way that leads me to believe that he had a master plan that fell through and then he went "Oh crap!" .... and had to find a different guy.

Just my opinion. No one else has to agree ... and frankly, I don't care if anyone agrees. It doesn't change my "gut feeling" of what happened. (Holmgren used it, so I can to)

Take comfort in knowing that what you think happened and what actually happened probably aren't even close. And I have no idea where you're getting this double talk from. And as much as you loved Mangini I hope the lesson you are learning through these playoffs is you have to have a coach who can deal with all types because the talented ones come in all shapes and sizes. Mangini only wanted to deal with a certain personality type. That's just not going to get it done.

Take comfort in knowing that we've tried all the approaches ...hot college coach, hot coordinator, previous head coaching experience ...we've tried it all and none of them have worked. Maybe this one will.

Take comfort in knowing that there is no way Holmgren didn't reach out to Gruden and Cowher before letting Mangini go. He already knew they weren't coming and still decided it was best to let Mangini go.

Take comfort in knowing that we have an experienced, professionally mature, well accomplished ex-coach running the show.

Just get on board.

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Take comfort in knowing that we have an experienced, professionally mature, well accomplished ex-coach running the show.

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Who just hired his first ever Head Coach ...... so let's hope he chose wisely.

I'm going to drop this topic for now. Kuts because Holmgren has more experience in football doesn't mean that I have to buy into all of his decisions without the slightest disagreement. I have real concerns about this hire. However, there is no disputing that the entire front office and coaching staff will now be 100% on the same page, so that should be a good thing.

I hope.

Now I just wonder how we'll do next year? If Mangini had stayed, I suspect that an easier schedule and a few better players would have us projected for an 8-8 yo 9-7 record. Since it sounds like we're heading for a tear down/rebuild, I would guess that we'll be 4-12.

Rizush I'm going to take a wait and see attitude, but I'm not ready to invest all this faith in Holmgren right now. As far as I'm concerned he needs to prove himself capable of the "President" position. As of now he has not.

So before you bash me or anybody else, pause and reflect on the fact that Holmgren actually failed the management part last time around... Right now, this hire, does not inspire confidence that he has it nailed this time around.

Mangini is gone. I can handle that. Will you be able to handle what the new coach does?...... Time will tell.

I swear sometimes that sportswriters read the boards for ideas for their columns .....

http://www.cleveland.com/budshaw/index.ssf/2011/01/mike_holmgrens_browns_makeover.html

Mike Holmgren's Browns makeover has showed patience; but fans don't have much left: Bud Shaw
Published: Sunday, January 16, 2011, 5:38 PM Updated: Sunday, January 16, 2011, 9:31 PM
By Bud Shaw, The Plain Dealer

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- In a statement that fell short of causing a stampede to the party store to buy confetti in bulk, Mike Holmgren allowed that the Browns are a little closer to Pittsburgh and Baltimore than they were before Eric Mangini.



Well, that beats the alternative.

My sense after the hiring of rookie head coach Pat Shurmur, though, is people are wondering where the "school zone" ends on this long, winding road to becoming playoff-relevant. When do the Browns stop creeping along? When do they stand on the accelerator and make up for all the lost time?

Hiring Jon Gruden would've felt like the street racing scenes from "The Fast and the Furious," but Gruden wasn't ready to return to coaching.

John Fox would've looked like a gunned engine (at least to me). To a lesser extent, keeping

Rob Ryan, who coached the 4-3 in Oakland, would've curbed the inherent angst of another re-start.

Holmgren is an impressive guy who has done good work hiring people, at least as a head coach. Certainly, he could have hit more pay dirt with Pat Shurmur. The appeal to having everyone in a position of power schooled in the same West Coast system is obvious.

There's just the nagging thought that the Browns already wasted time in Holmgren's first year on the job, and the Shurmur hire qualifies as a request for even more patience.

With a change in offensive philosophy and head coach mandating more roster turnover, wouldn't the Browns be further along if Holmgren had fired Mangini a year ago? What was 2010 really about if not about the probability that waiting gave Gruden, or Holmgren himself, time to recharge batteries and return to the sideline?

What was it about if not about waiting for a veteran hand like Fox to become available? Surely it wasn't about giving Shurmur another year of grooming as offensive coordinator of an offensively challenged Rams' team.

The other coaching changes since 1999 felt necessary. Replacing Mangini seemed more a matter of preference born of elemental philosophical differences. I agreed with the decision.

But Holmgren should've made a clean sweep in Berea when he arrived. That's not a second guess. That was a first-guess at the time. Those philosophical differences with Mangini didn't suddenly crop up this season.

Mangini's four closing wins would've made firing him unpopular. I get that. Holmgren, the coach, no doubt had empathy for Mangini. At least you'd hope that was the reason for keeping him. Because if Holmgren simply decided to give Mangini and offensive coordinator Brian Daboll a year to muddle along while the team president got to know everybody's name, it was even a bigger waste of time than it now appears.

A season later, Holmgren's hiring of a rookie coach who plans to start out calling his own plays despite just two years as an offensive coordinator is worrisome. Holmgren and Gil Haskell will be there for support, but the head coach is the head coach and he better not come off like a puppet to his players.

In one obvious sense, Shurmur's hiring falls completely into Holmgren's comfort zone -- shared offensive philosophy, shared agent, same last name as Holmgren's defensive coordinator in Green Bay. In another, it's tremendously bold, the ultimate risk-reward.

Holmgren didn't believe in the Mangini Way. So now we're getting the Holmgren Way but without Holmgren on the sideline or even an experienced hand in his place.

Prior head coaching experience doesn't guarantee success. Holmgren didn't learn that by watching Mangini in 2010. The hiring of Shurmur is proof he already knew it.

Will the transition take time?

I know. That sounds like a trick question. When hasn't it?

I believe that like me, Holmgren saw close games lost over decision making mistakes that had nothing to do with talent or even scheme.




Of course,that really should be obvious,along with how he managed his players..anyone care to remember how Mike mentioned before how frustrated he got?
How he felt the recievers were not being utilized properly?
He knew the Browns should have won at least 3-4 more games than they did.

I don't disagree with any of what you said.

But there are some things to hang your hat on with Holmgren that at least gives you hope that his decisions will be the right ones.

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I can kind of see why someone like Fox or Gruden would not take a team,

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Gruden has stated man y times that he wants to be around for his son's senior year. Fox wasn't asked.

I think things began to fall apart after the overtime debacle against the jets. Miami and Carolina were disgusting to watch, I needed a shower to wash off the ugly after witnessing those embarrassing wins. Then the losses to Buffalo and Cinn just sealed the fate of Mangini. Bad coaching was on display for all to see.

Holmgren gave Genius a chance to turn it around. It didnt happen. The team took a nose dive down the stretch in what was the easiest part of the schedule.

Now the Mangini supporters are mad because Holmgren didnt fire Genius a year ago. Get over it. he dropped the ball and now Shurmur has it.

I will say this. If Shurmur fails to field a competent experienced staff, then he is a guaranteed failure. This is the area where Holmgren and heckert should be able to help the inexperienced HC but so far, I am not very impressed. This team can't handle another Dabocle.

Every guy that has run the Browns since '99 has done some good things and some bad. I've been able to sort out what I like and what I don't without letting it kill my ability to root for the Browns and see the bright side of things. Most of the time anyway.

But guys like Ytown and Oldcold don't seem to be able or willing to do that. After 2 weeks of their (and others) incessant moaning about Mangini's firing and the hiring of the new guy is there anyone that isn't getting tired of it? Is there anyone that thinks if Shurmur gets us on the winning track they won't give credit to Mangini instead? Or the flip side, if we come out under .500 is there any doubt they'll be calling for his head by the bye week?

At this point I think that everyone needs to take a deep breath and hope they get a new CBA before we worry about whether Eric Mangini got screwed or Pat Shurmur will take us to a Super Bowl in the next 2 years.

I can't speak for anyone else, I wanted Mangini to remain.. But I'm not at all angry over it..

Wasn't my call. Shumur is a question mark to me, but Holmgren is someone that I trust and I know he knows way more than I do.. I'm going with the flow on this.. Hoping that it works out for us this time.. We sure are due..

we are the poster child of ineptitude. even with Holmgren in charge I still see the same ineptitude...he already has 2 strikes against him

1. Jake Delhomme....thats all on Holmgren.
2. Firing Eric Mangini

I don't beleive in Holmgren, and I don't trust him. He is a good coach, but outside of that...overated.

This guy has never been a President in his life....

He failed miserably as a GM...as a GM Holmgren was an epic fail...if he failed as a GM how am i supposed to believe he can be a good President when he couldn't even be a good GM...

Holmgren said he didn't believe in Eric, the bottom line is he wanted "his guy" and he didn't have the guts Parcells had to fire the guy from the get go...instead he set up Mangini to fail and wasted 1 year already.

Fact is Eric Mangini is a good coach...he is better then this "bum" we hired...he had 2 winning seasons in 3 years in NY, Rex Ryan is winning with a roster that is 90% Eric Mangini's roster....

So far Holmgren has been a failure...at least Caremn Policy and Clark built a team that made the playoffs and had the Steelers beat in a playoff game with 2 minutes left....blame Dennis Northcutt...he cost us the freakin game because he can't catch a wide open pass..... Holmgren was a failure as a GM and i see no reason to believe he will succeed as a president when he couldn't even handle a GM job...

If "I" was in charge of the Browns I would have kept Mangini and his staff, and I would have brought in a personell guy that could work with Eric and said look

this is "your team" whoever you want in Fa bring in, whoever you want in the draft, bring it, and I would have put 100% of my resources behind Eric to field a winning football team

Mangini got the shaft here, and Holmgren made a knee jerk reaction and fired a coach who was "finally" beginning to get a good base here...i fully believe Mangini would have got us to playoffs next year, and he would have added a few more pieces we needed on D and O....

this organization made a big mistake firing Eric....a big one....you watch Mangini will either smooth things over with Bellichik, or he will get another shot someone where with Josh McDaniels as his OC and he will end up pulling a Bellichik

at worst the Browns should have let Mangini bring in McDaniels as the OC and kept everyone else...Mangini was open to changing Offensive Coordinators according to reports...this is an epic fail on Holmgren's part.

I don't see the WCO finnese stuff working in this division...Mangini was building a team that could win in this division.....

im ticked because im tired of this team not sticking to anything...the Browns could have easily been a 10 win team...Mangini had this team playing their hearts out until the last few games(injuries is why we looked so bad, key injuries its not on the coaching staff)

mark my words...4 years from now Holmgren will be found "wanting" and out of a job here....he hired his "puppet" sadly Holmgren is no Parcells and he won't be able to turn Shurmur into a Sparano like many are hoping...we lack the talent to run the WCO system....even our Offensive Line is not built for that...our line is not good trap blockers.

The bottom line is this, I said it when it happened, and i'll say it now:

Randy Lerner biggest mistake was not hiring Scott Pioli.....that was "our chance" to get things right...Bellichik was willing to concede some of his power in NE in an attempt to convince Pioli to stay...thats how much Bellichik valued Pioli....

look at how quickly the Chiefs have turned things around....Pioli's drafts have been outstanding, and that Chiefs team is stocked with good talent for YEARS to come the Cheifs will be relevant in the AFC...

i would take Pioli ANYDAY over Holmgren...ANY DAY... Pioli knows how to build a team that can win in bad weather and against the physical teams like Baltimore and Pittsburgh...the Chiefs will be right back in it next year...they are a young team, but they are growing and the AFc west was a pretty tight division this past year.

if folks want to blindly trust Holmgren, fine...im not...i already see 2 major gaffes with him..big ones...and his past two picks as HC (his successors in Green Bay and Seattle) were just downright terrible......

believe it or not, I would have been more comfortable with the Browns hiring someone like Charlie Casserly, or someone who had years of experience in an NFL front office as a GM or Vice President then hiring Holmgren who has been nothing but a coach outside of what 3 years as a fialed Gm in Seattle.....it doesn't bide much for me having confidence in the guy....

Holmgren is a great coach, one of the best...but he was a terrible GM and if he can't be a good Gm i have no reason to believe he will be a good President, and so far he has made just downright terrible decisions as a President...I mena come on...giving Jake Dellhomme 7 million dollars is a good decision? are you kidding me!? the res tof the league was laughing at us.

Face facts, Holmgren never let Eric Mangini alone to do his job. He always had Gill Haskill watching over everything like a micro-mangager, and thats just not a good way to conduct or run an operation...undermining the Head Coach and forcing Eric to walk on eggshells...heaven forbid Haskill may go tattletale on Eric and ryan because of something they said or done...give me a break.

Mangini was set up to fail, he is a much better coach then this yes man clown we just hired...it will take 3-4 years to get the personnel to run the WCO and build a decent 4-3....we were maybe 1-2 years away from building a team Mangini could win with...I fully expected 9 wins from Eric this coming season, and fighting for playoffs and getting in 50/50 with a surefire birth the following year.

Holmgren made a knee jerk decision and threw it all away....we were so close here, and Brian Daboll took too much flack....I thought Daboll was a decent OC...he just lacked talent at the Wr position...he did the best he could with what he had....Colt McCoy even admitted that working with Daboll is the reaosn he did so well last year..Brett Farve RAVED about how great of a coach Daboll was, he even taught Brett Farve a few things and improved his game.

this team made a big mistake...Mangini will get another shot because he is a good HC, and you watch him and josh McDaniels will get together and win something big....and we will be laughed at..

Holmgren should of manned up and let Mangini bring in McDaniels as OC, and made Daboll Qb Coach and offensive assistant and let McDaniels and Daboll work the game plans and continued forward....we were so close, and Mangini never had a chance....

the Rams are laughing at us for hiring Shurmur...they wanted to run this guy out of town...you thought Daboll was bad? I know a few Rams fans that i watch games with that atched Browns games with me told me they would trade Shurmur for Daboll in a heartbeat and even throw in a Draft pick....just wait and see.....

look at the godawful playcalling for the Rams with their playoff hopes o the line...he gives Stephen Jackson the ball what..10 times the whole game LMAO and they lost!

this is going to be cute im sure....

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1. Jake Delhomme....thats all on Holmgren.
2. Firing Eric Mangini

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The only way I see it is that Holmgren shouldn't have been so fair to Mangini by giving him another shot despite their philosophical differences.

In my book, Mangini dug his own grave starting Jake Delhomme over Seneca Wallace in those final games (before McCoy came back). If we couldn't start Seneca because he was in Mangini's "Dog House", then he should be off the team. There's no point in keeping a QB who can't play.

I don't believe that Mike Holmgren made Mangini start Delhomme. He might have brought him to the team this year, but Mangini is the coach, and he decides who is starting QB.

Not to mention, our games against the Bengals and Bills were just sad, and I wasn't impressed against Balt or Pitt (but will give more leeway because of who we played against).

Our team went 5-11 this year. It's not like the Raiders who fired Cable (and rightfully so, the guy's a real jerk) at 8-8.


I have no ill-will against Mangini, but when I heard we were starting Delhomme after McCoy went down, I was absolutely furious. I knew then that the excitement in the season was over, and that the games with Delhomme be very difficult to watch. I lost all faith in Mangini at that moment. And that was that.

Now I sure hope that Mangini is successful in the NFL. I hold no ill-will toward him, but he wasn't right for the Browns. And I do think with Heckert as GM and Holmgren's track record for picking good coaches (assistants at least) we will be fine.

People rip on our new coach, Pat Shurmur, but I think many will be pleasantly surprised when he does well. And me, I'm not going to be surprised, because I'm going to have faith in the Holmgren and Heckert. In fact, I think he might be our coach for quite some time (finally)

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leads me to believe that he had a master plan that fell through and then he went "Oh crap!" .... and had to find a different guy

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Man, does that feel right, as if Mike and Fox had made a deal, just needed to finish out the year with Mangini, then Denver called...and Fox said" Sorry Mike, I can win with Denver, Cleveland needs to much work, See ya..."

Call me crazy, but that just feels right.

KOB im kinda with you.

Im tryin to get by it and get behind this new hire...its been a struggle, but i think that i can, but the more i read about switching offenses and defenses...i just cant get behind it.

We had a power running game. A style of football that keeps it close if you dont have a ton of talent, and dominates teams if you have talent. It was a style of football team that not only can win games, it can win games in the AFCN AND...AND and this is the most important one. In January. Sure we struggled down the stretch but it was because our only producer in Hillis wore down.

I think that Daboll is a great QB coach, but as a coordinator I wasnt a fan. We ran so few slant routes and so few imaginative runs that we couldnt get it done. I think he does well with QBs but not total personnel.

Our defense...and DC were superb. We gave up top 5 least rushing TDs, top 1 least amount of pts in the 1st Q, top 1 in least amount of games giving up 30 pts. Were we great at blitzing? of course not because we sucked at it, so we stopped doing it and would get back to it when we had the personnel.
We played great on D (cept Pit) and every game we played well we won.

Yea mangini made mistakes but they were mistakes you can learn from...in an offseason. You think he would look at all of this and not try to improve upon his mistakes? hed be a blowhard not to, and he has shown that he is a smart guy willing to learn and he would.


I was happy with us hiring Holmgren because he is a good football guy but...i never really liked him as a coach. I just never took his teams seriously...i did with GB but they seemed only sustainable because of Brett Favre.

I thought he would be an overseer, and just making sure everything was going the right direction. And now that he replaced our direction I worry even more.



I just dont see how having Shurmur and a new offense AND defense is going to make things better. I'm not seeing it anymore. I see us as trying to become a holmgren team and that just doesnt excite me. Ive become very skeptical and feel like things will get worse before they get better, and 3 years from now they wont be better enough and we'll end up changing directions again. Im worried. I dont like it

i didnt mind bringing in Shurmur...he seems like a smart football guy, and he has done good things. but to say hes gonna call his own plays, switch to a 4-3, and change much of the personnel of the offense too? ugh

I wanted no part of Wallace on the field after the statements he made in the media towards Eric Mangini and the coaching staff.. a complete lack of class, in fact I wanted Wallace cut and out of here....if you have grievances with the coach handle it behind closed doors...Wallace acted like a child, and he didn't deserve to play after the way he acted.

As for Delhomme....what was Mangini choice really? Holmgren brought in Jake at a hefty price tag to be the starter, when Mccoy got a chance due to inury they stuck with him, when McCoy got hurt....it was "only right and fair" to give Jake a chance to play....

football is still a business...im sure Holmgren hinted to Eric that you have to play the guy your paying a huge amount of money too.....

Mangini had no choice but to play Jake....Jake got hurt so early in the year he never really had a chance to play healthy.....Seneca had his shot and played awful thorough a few games he was in...Jake HAD to be given a fair chance to at least get to play.

Im sorry, but after the statements Wallace made there is no way he should have had been put in...he threw his team and coaches under the bus because he cried like a baby he wasn't the starter...he acted like a child.

I hope Wallace is NOT here next year...we don't need that kinda dissenting nonsense in the lockeroom or some classless fool that has to throw his coaches under the bus in the media...its a poor showing of character and he didn't deserve to play after that...it was only fair to give Jake a chance at that point.....

we are the poster child of ineptitude

Yes the mangini supporters are poster children for ineptitude.

I don't beleive in Holmgren, and I don't trust him.
I am sure that holmgren isn't sleeping at night with that knowledge


He is a good coach, but outside of that...overated.
Hmm maybe you know more about his bedroom performances than the rest of us.


This guy has never been a President in his life
Tell us Mr. President what is it like to be in charge lol

if he failed as a GM how am i supposed to believe he can be a good President when he couldn't even be a good GM...
He learned from his mistake and it showed last year. He stripped the scouting department and inserted his own people first thing. It proved to be effective in his first draft as president.

Holmgren said he didn't believe in Eric, the bottom line is he wanted "his guy" and he didn't have the guts Parcells had to fire the guy from the get go...instead he set up Mangini to fail and wasted 1 year already.
How did he set him up for failure? OO by giving him a year to improve on his 5 win season and Mangini responded by giving him another 5 win season.

Fact is Eric Mangini is a good coach... That is five win fiction



If "I" was in charge of the Browns I would have kept Mangini and his staff, and I would have brought in a personell guy that could work with Eric and said look this is "your team" whoever you want in Fa bring in, whoever you want in the draft, bring it, and I would have put 100% of my resources behind Eric to field a winning football team
Yea that really worked well for us with the Veikune draft.

you watch Mangini will either smooth things over with Bellichik, or he will get another shot someone where with Josh McDaniels as his OC and he will end up pulling a Bellichik And then he will pee out rainbows and poop out leprechauns.

look at how quickly the Chiefs have turned things around. Yea they didnt hire Mangini and it shows.

look at the godawful playcalling for the Rams with their playoff hopes o the line.

That Rams team Spag and Shurmor took over didn't have enough talent to compete in WAC. Seeing what they accomplished in one year with a rookie QB, having 3 of their top 4 receivers go down with injuries and having a patchwork OL was nothing but amazing. The playcalling was designed to hide their deficiencies.

I know understanding scheme is a foreign concept for Mangini supporters since no one knows what scheme we were even attempting to run for the last 2 years.

O well bottom line is your posts are the most humorous one will find on this site. Keep the laughs a coming

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KOB im kinda with you.

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Who didn't see that coming?

I think that Daboll is a great QB coach, but as a coordinator I wasnt a fan.

Yea look at all the wonderful quarterbacks he developed. Lets see there is that one guy umm Farve?

Past is past now.Time to see who Shurmur brings in for his coordinator spots and see what they want to run on defense.

Knight, I'm with you on Pioli.

Unfortunately Junior thought that this team was "a team with 7 Pro Bowlers" instead of the truth that Pioli gave him.

Plus Junior went with Mangini, who I like, but Pioli wouldn't have worked with.

qb-wise he did a very good job. Until his injury Favre was playing great football, Kellen Clemens has been good every time hes gone in.

He did better with DA than any other coach save for Crennel and co. He was pretty awful, but he did better here than he did in AZ. Quinn improved over time and Colt and Jake and Seneca improved as they continued to play. That speaks for a good job being done by the coaches.

Quote:

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Rex Ryan is winning with a roster that is 90% Eric Mangini's roster....

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Actually, this isn't true.

They have a different:

Starting QB
Starting WR
Starting WR
Pair of RB in Green and Tomlinson
Starting LG
Starting ILB
Starting FS
Starting CB


Offensively they have had quite an overhaul. Defensively they found a couple of players that "you just can't find in free agency or trades" In 3-4 LB Scott and CB Cromartie.

They took on a lot of high risk players. Edwards, Holmes, Sanchez, Tomlinson, Pool and Cromartie all had either age, injury, character or developmental concerns. They hit on 100% of these moves. That's frighteningly good luck. Somehow they have managed to hold it all together.

Ryan kept Schottenheimer, and he is a remarkable coordinator. People talk about what Shurmur did with Bradford, but the job this guy did with a 1 year college starter, and working in new players left and right has been nothing short of remarkable. If I was looking for a head coach, given the challenges this guy has overcome on a personnel basis, plus the challenge of having to work with as strong a personality as Ryan, this would be someone I would definitely have looked at.

Ryan then brought in a cohort from his old team, the Ravens, to be his new DC. Less challenging spot as it is Ryan's forte, and the defensive side of the ball has remarkable talent. (and yes, in this case, much was brought in by Mangini)

VVVVVVVVV

Well done, 4! You are seeing a bigger picture than some logic flaws IMO. We seem to be addressing the philosophy shakedown going on about what wins games and how attacks are well mounted in the matchup wars. And I like, and agree, not necessarily the same, with a number of your perceptions. One famous coach I read about, Brown or Lombardi, if memory serves me (a rarer occurrence as I get older), liked to be able to attack any point on the field at least three or four ways. Like Brown's passing innovations by way of example. And how you got there varied with formation, personnel, motion, QB action, and more variables. Landry was an offensive god in his glory days. Looking at our defense, not many variables, so not much different results. Point is, what you say reminded me of just how limited and self-containing some of what we have persisted in doing contributed results that more often than not were found wanting. We did not give teams much to prepare for. We did have success. But if I were preparing for us, I would not concentrate on deep coverage, on too many screens, or much run to the outside. Blitzing out of loaded boxes would address much of what we did. I like the idea of a mobile defensive front, whether 3 or 4, that generates pressure. So it IS personnel, and the playoffs show where we are not there yet, but closer. The real wild card is doing more different things, doing them better, and doing them more often most of the time. Your post got me thinking; thanks for that. And you earn a huge "attaboy no-prize" and my congratulations on a very readable and stylized post with polish. It certainly scores style points with me.

LOL Thanks for having some fun with KoB.. I was wondering who was going to either blast him or make fun of him.

Being a guy who wanted Mangini to remain, I can see why some are angry..

I mean, tell us that the team was in every game last season then tell me you are firing the HC.. on the surface, that seems pretty odd so I get the hostility.

But here it is in a nutshell.. I really believe with all my heart that Holmgren gave Mangini a year to prove himself.. and, the bottom line is, he didn't.

So, if you are the pres of the team,, and you have a guy you gave a chance to and he didn't get it done,, what do you do? As much as I didn't like the firing, I completely understand it.

manginis coaching style wasn't what Holmgren connected with.. so, he had to go.

Seems simple..