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i still think Zorn is the front runner, especially with his experience (or lack there of) as a head coach.
Yea! A guy who failed as a play caller/head coach ..... and has never (AFAIK) called plays anywhere else. 
Well, at least Shurmur would be the undisputer play caller. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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yea.. no one established is gonna give up those rights.
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Not only that .... but why is any quality candidate going to take the job knowing that they are coordinator in name only? Why would a QB Coach make a move to be ..... a glorified QB Coach?
If I'm going to be a coordinator, I want to control my own destiny. Tying my destiny to a 1st time head coach who wants to call plays isn't exactly long term job security .... and probably a stepping stone job at best.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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All Pro
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hire CoachB
 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/captainphil/browns bills sig 5.jpg) When it gets cold and snows and the wind blows, you gotta be able to run the ball. - TR
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I'm calling it now.... we're not going to hire an OC.
[crazy_conspiracy_theory]
We may bring in a QB coach, but we won't have an OC.
Think about it:
Shurmur is coming in to be the Head Coach for the first time ever and one of the first things we hear is that he will call his own plays. There is no way on earth that that is said without them knowing full well the impact it will have on their Coordinator search. Call it conspiracy theory, but I think it is quite intentional... shoo away the "prime candidates", leaving us an empty cupboard to choose from, leading us to the conclusion that we won't have one and we'll just roll with a QB coach and an "Offensive Assistant".
Where does that leave us? A "Head Coach" doing the job of an OC, and a President presiding over him managing the team - kinda like a Head Coach would.
Give people whatever title you want (as Holmgren stated last spring) to get them here... but if you look at the structure, that's what I'm seeing. All that remains is for Holmgren to be in Shurmur's earphones on Sundays.
[/crazy_conspiracy_theory]
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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If it means playoffs, 11 wins and maybe a division title ...
I'll drink that Kool-Aide
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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I'm doubting that it would get us .500.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I think Groucho Marx said, I don't care belong to a club that would accept me as a member. If Musgrave chose the Chinese fire drill thats been our offense for longer than I can bare to think about over the Vikes Peterson Harvin Rice and Shiancoe. Then he's too stupid to work for us anyway. 
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Not only that .... but why is any quality candidate going to take the job knowing that they are coordinator in name only? Why would a QB Coach make a move to be ..... a glorified QB Coach?
I think many are under valuing the role of an OC on staff simply because Shurmur will be calling the plays. Your statement shows that, and so do many others, so I'll answer.
As always, the offensive coordinator will develop the offensive game plan and the head coach will review it. After discussing the game plan with the entire offensive staff he/they make changes where he thinks the plan needs changes and finally approves the amended plan before practices start for the upcoming game.
By having an OC develop the game plan that will free up Shurmur a ton. That means he will not have to spend the time to develop the plan, just oversee it along with the rest of the staff.
Even though Shurmur will call his own plays does not mean the OC is a puppet or an OC in title only. For one he'll be a valuable coach to bounce ideas off of, a valuable coach to look for the opposition's strengths and weaknesses and develop a plan to attack that and a valuable coach to teach the plan to the players.
Or do we forget that someone has to run the practice in teaching the players what their responsibilities are in the specific game plan? Shurmur is certainly not going to spend his week doing all that. Help in specific areas yes, oversee yes. But he has a lot going on helping both sides of the ball and overseeing the entire team and cannot be a head coach and an OC at this point of his coaching career.
What we need is a great offensive mind regardless of whether or not he as been in the role of offensive coordinator or not. Hell, we've got head coaches in the playoffs who have never been a coordinator before and one who was a special teams coordinator. All we need is someone who is adept at spotting the opponents strengths and weaknesses and intelligent enough to develop a game plan for it putting the available talent on hand in the best situation to succeed. The head coach will critique the plan and call the plays in the game.
I swear, some of you guys don't even stop to think before you start attacking.
#gmstrong
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Post deleted by Referee 3
#gmstrong
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I understand the importance of the coordinator in developing the gameplan, breaking down film, identifying tendencies, etc.
However, doing all of that without getting to call the plays is doing all of the hard work without getting any of the payoff. Seeing as a coordinator cannot be "promoted" to coordinator with a different team where he would call plays, why would a quality candidate take half the job?
If the offense tanks, who gets the blame? Think they're firing the head coach and keeping the coordinator? Being a coordinator without getting to call the plays is just doing the grunt work. I don't know of too many people who want to do that.
Now I will say that sometimes you have a QB coach who feels that he is "stuck", so he'll take one of these "half jobs" to show that he can do the grunt side of things. I don't see a candidate like McDaniels, Childress, Musgrave, or any other of the frontline quality guys taking the job to be a "Jr Coordinator". None of them have either. They have almost all gone elsewhere rather than come here.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If we do go to this "small ball" type of offense, I would be really disappointed if Stuckey was sent packing. I would think he would be a great receiver in this type of offense, no? He's YAC receiver... throw him short passes/ get him in the open and let him make people miss. Wouldn't we want to hang onto a receiver like this?
I seriously disagree with you. Stuckey can catch but never gets yac, the defender tackles him from behind within a step even when he's been beaten!
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Shurmur and Musgrave are pretty identical in scheme. Small ball, clock controlling scheme which is what I want to see Colt run.
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The West Coast offense requires sure-handed receivers who are comfortable catching in heavy traffic,
good, good, so far that sounds good! 
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and the system downplays speedy, larger receivers who are covered easily in short yardage situation.
Says Who? What do you want the Short and Slow, who can't get downfield or away from checks by Cb's within 5 yds? What a bad system, then. this part only raises questions.
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One result has been the longevity of receivers in the West Coast system such as Jerry Rice,
No system can make every receiver like Jerry Rice, And What? Did Jerry Rice never go down the field, OR? Was he small and slow and thus able to catch short passes? And! The system has what evidence of adding to the longevity of any player?
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because familiarity with the system and clear signalling is of greater importance than systems that require a receiver to "stretch the field" where any loss of speed is a major liability.
This is discouraging. I hope the team dosen't feel this way, because that would be discouraging.
IT is the N.F.L. You are supposed to attack, let me say that again,
Attack! the Entire Field of play.
Any Other system, would be Incomplete!  Go score some points!
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
I understand the importance of the coordinator in developing the gameplan, breaking down film, identifying tendencies, etc.
However, doing all of that without getting to call the plays is doing all of the hard work without getting any of the payoff. Seeing as a coordinator cannot be "promoted" to coordinator with a different team where he would call plays, why would a quality candidate take half the job?
If the offense tanks, who gets the blame? Think they're firing the head coach and keeping the coordinator? Being a coordinator without getting to call the plays is just doing the grunt work. I don't know of too many people who want to do that.
Now I will say that sometimes you have a QB coach who feels that he is "stuck", so he'll take one of these "half jobs" to show that he can do the grunt side of things. I don't see a candidate like McDaniels, Childress, Musgrave, or any other of the frontline quality guys taking the job to be a "Jr Coordinator". None of them have either. They have almost all gone elsewhere rather than come here.
I agree with you entirely.
GMs do GM stuff.
Head Coaches do HC stuff.
Coordinators do coordinator stuff.
If we hire the right personnel for each position then they don't have to do each other's job, which places a drain in areas of the position, whichever position it may be. Will Shurmur be busy calling plays when he should be lighting a fire under the ass of his DC that just allowed a 96 yard drive???? THAT is his job....not calling plays.
More often than not it has shown to not be successful, and I will throw this out as well: Seeing Colt in his infancy, the smarts he has shown in making reads at the line, I would hope that very soon we see HIM calling the plays because that is the best place to do it. Right at the line of fire by the person that is seeing it ALL the best and the most.
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Think about it:
Shurmur is coming in to be the Head Coach for the first time ever and one of the first things we hear is that he will call his own plays. There is no way on earth that that is said without them knowing full well the impact it will have on their Coordinator search.
Yep...That's pretty obvious to me and u at least...
But to some I'm sure it was taken as though Shurmer was NERVOUS and never shoulda said that...It was a "Slip"...lmao...
MY only concern is the "Initially" comment...WTF is that suppose to mean... 
Then comes this...VVVVVVVVVVVVVV
Go Browns!!!
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I will throw this out as well: Seeing Colt in his infancy, the smarts he has shown in making reads at the line, I would hope that very soon we see HIM calling the plays because that is the best place to do it. Right at the line of fire by the person that is seeing it ALL the best and the most.
Excellent point bro...Hadn't crossed my mind...
Would absolutely LOVE to see this develop...
Go Browns!!!
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dub...I thought about that commercial when I first read Coach Whipple's name...don't squeeze the charmin..!
...then I saw a picture of Mr. Coach Whipple... web page
He doesn't look like "the Mr. Whipple"...dude looks like he should Oline coach or LB coach.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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I'm calling it now.... we're not going to hire an OC.
[crazy_conspiracy_theory]
We may bring in a QB coach, but we won't have an OC.
Think about it:
Shurmur is coming in to be the Head Coach for the first time ever and one of the first things we hear is that he will call his own plays. There is no way on earth that that is said without them knowing full well the impact it will have on their Coordinator search. Call it conspiracy theory, but I think it is quite intentional... shoo away the "prime candidates", leaving us an empty cupboard to choose from, leading us to the conclusion that we won't have one and we'll just roll with a QB coach and an "Offensive Assistant".
Where does that leave us? A "Head Coach" doing the job of an OC, and a President presiding over him managing the team - kinda like a Head Coach would.
Give people whatever title you want (as Holmgren stated last spring) to get them here... but if you look at the structure, that's what I'm seeing. All that remains is for Holmgren to be in Shurmur's earphones on Sundays.
[/crazy_conspiracy_theory]
I more or less said the same thing when i said this on the first page of this thread:
Does anybody know....did Holmgren have a OC or was Haskell his special assistant who more or less handled the role??
Homie called his own plays.....maybe we need to forget having a OC for a while and just look for some help.
We did just hire a coordinator in Shurmer who has said he was going to call plays, later modified to he will initially call plays.
One would assume he will be pretty active with the O just like Mangini and Romeo were probably more active with the D
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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One person's take on Musgrave...OBR... Quote:
While I like his work with young QB's, I am told by numerous people in the game that his mindset is somewhat different in regards to offensive football than that of the new HC in Cleveland
I just wonder if we're waiting for Clements...Of Green Bay...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
One person's take on Musgrave...OBR...
Quote:
While I like his work with young QB's, I am told by numerous people in the game that his mindset is somewhat different in regards to offensive football than that of the new HC in Cleveland
I just wonder if we're waiting for Clements...Of Green Bay...
I hope so. If we aren't looking at someone still involved in the playoffs, I'd say we just, as Jimmy Dudley would say..."Swingggggg, and a Miss".
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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U know I usually chime in often when this turnover thingy is happening but I'm not this time..I think it's best to wait till playoffs or in particular ,certain teams are eliminated..I have a hunch the Browns are being methodical for a reason...and from what I heard Musgrave would notn have been a great fit here.
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Cleveland Browns miss out on Bill Musgrave, reportedly interested in ex-Steelers assistant Whipple
Published: Wednesday, January 19, 2011
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns lost out to the Vikings for offensive coordinator Bill Musgrave, but a new candidate has emerged in former Steelers quarterbacks coach and Miami Hurricanes offensive coordinator Mark Whipple, a report says.
In addition, the Browns' chances of landing Eagles' secondary coach Dick Jauron took a hit Wednesday when the Eagles' top candidate, Jim Mora, took himself out of the running for both the Eagles' and Broncos' coordinator jobs. Jauron is now most likely the Eagles' leading candidate, although they will also interview fired Rams defensive coordinator Bill Davis.
Jauron interviewed with the Browns on Tuesday and Wednesday, but nothing was expected to happen immediately. The Browns are also expected to interview former NFL head coach Dave Wannstedt on Thursday.
Musgrave was the second offensive coordinator candidate to turn the Browns down. The first was Denver's Mike McCoy, who opted to stay with the Broncos under new coach John Fox, his long-time boss with the Panthers.
The Browns interviewed Musgrave on Tuesday. He then spent Wednesday with the Vikings, where ESPN reported he had accepted the Vikings job. He'll call plays under head coach Leslie Frazier.
In Cleveland, Musgrave most likely would've deferred in that regard to coach Pat Shurmur. But it didn't take the Browns long to turn their attention to Whipple, according to ESPN's Adam Schefter.
Whipple, 54, served as Steelers' quarterbacks coach from 2004-06, when he helped develop Ben Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger went 13-0 as a rookie in 2004 and became the youngest quarterback to win a Super Bowl when he did so in his second season at age 23.
When Mike Tomlin took over the Steelers after the 2006 season, he fired Whipple, who was hired the next day by the Eagles. At the time, Shurmur was quarterbacks coach for the Eagles and Browns General Manager Tom Heckert served in that capacity in Philadelphia. Whipple was the Hurricanes' offensive coordinator in 2009-10 until Randy Shannon's staff was fired at the end of the season.
In addition to Jauron and Davis, the Eagles reportedly may interview at least one coach still in the playoffs, which can't happen until his team is eliminated. Mora told Fox Sports' Jay Glazer that he will take at least one more year off and continue as an analyst for NFL Network.
Browns sign two: The Browns signed two players to reserve/future contracts for the 2011 season, linebacker Auston English and receiver Rod Windsor.
English (6-3, 250), signed with the Browns as a free agent out of Oklahoma and spent the 2010 off-season with them before being waived on June 17. Windsor (6-2, 205) spent one week on the Browns' practice squad in 2010 and was then signed to the Bills practice squad. He's from Western New Mexico.
web page
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Musgrave was the second offensive coordinator candidate to turn the Browns down. The first was Denver's Mike McCoy, who opted to stay with the Broncos under new coach John Fox, his long-time boss with the Panthers.
If i remember correctly McCoy was offered an INTERVIEW and not the position. This stuff just annoys me and it is becoming more and more common. Why let the truth get in the way of a good story?
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Where does that leave us? A "Head Coach" doing the job of an OC, and a President presiding over him managing the team - kinda like a Head Coach would.
Give people whatever title you want (as Holmgren stated last spring) to get them here... but if you look at the structure, that's what I'm seeing. All that remains is for Holmgren to be in Shurmur's earphones on Sundays.
EXACTLY Prp...im glad to see some folks are beginning to catch on....and guess what, it won't work. I fully expect Holmgren to be canned in the next 2-3 years...
He set up Eric Mangini to fail...i lost most of my respect for Holmgren after looking at the big picture. What did Holmgren do to address the Defensive Front 7...
he brought in Fujita who is a good role player piece, but thats pretty much it. Gocong was a Philly cast off they couldn't wait to get rid of who sucked this year and probably won't even make the team.
On offense he completely ignored the WR position in FA, he brought in Ben Watson (Who im sure Mangini wanted) and saddled him with Jake Delhomme....yeah Holmgren was really using his resources to bring Mangini some players he could win with.
I saw the writing on the wall in the Draft last year with the Haden and Ward picks that were "system neutral picks" that Holmgren knew exactly what he was doing...Mangini was the fall guy here, and he was royally shafted by Mike Holmgren and I can't wait until he is gone....Mangini's system IN SPITE of Holmgren shafting him was still working...the players believed in Mangini and wanted him to stay.
Holmgren got what he wanted...his puppet....and i have no doubt Holmgren will be heavily involved in the gameday planning and such with this team.
In fact McCoy's comments about Holmgren coaching McCoy makes me angry...your were not the coach last year Holmgren, Mangini was...way to go undermining your Head Coach and interfering in his ability to do his job.
Mike Holmgren has made 2 huge mistakes already:
1. signing Jake Delhomme just peeing 7 million down the drain.
2. Firing Eric Mangini.
his 3rd mistake is hiring "his puppet" so he can be in the guy's headset....it won't work...Holmgren will be canned here in 2-3 years if he don't resign first...this guy is not a good President.
Mike Holmgren is not even qualified to be the President of a franchise...he has no business there...yes he is a great Head Coach, but he was a terrible GM in Seattle, and lacks any kinda of extended NFL Front Office experience and it shows on how he handles things.
Since Lerner botched the Scott Pioli hiring, he should have went out and hired someone who is currently a successful NFL GM and has been successful in that position for a few years and promoted the guy to President.
ya know...like offering someone like Ozzie Newsome the Job of President of the organization (which is a huge step up from his GM/Vice President Role in Baltimore and is a job promotion)
or perhaps hiring the Colts VP of Football Operations to be President or something...ya know actually hiring an experienced NFL Executive to be President? not some glorified Head Coach who is in way over his head...
the difference between Parcells and Holmgren is night and day the two don't even compare...Parcells had considerable experience running the show in Giants, Patriots,Jets, and Cowboy land...he was his own GM and a good one...Holmgren only has a track record of being terrible at it.
yes I am not drinking the Kool-aid Mike Holmgren WAS WRONG in firing Eric Mangini and set this franchise back even farther for his own desires to have a puppet.
If Holmgren proves me wrong, great but I doubt he does...he is making the same mistakes here he had in Seattle just on a grander scale that reeks of ineptitude...we were the only team dumb enough to give Delhomme 7 mill....the rest of the league laughed at us..nuff said...thats a HUGE gaffe...huge...
im not buying it Holmgren, you messed this up big time...in all his press conferences all he ever did was undermine Mangini by feeding the press tidbits about himself wanting to coach...
well guess what Holmgren...you got your wish...you got your puppet to coach ...too bad it won't work....after the way you shafted Eric Mangini.....what comes around goes around......I won't be sad when your canned....you never gave Mangini a fair chance...thats just not right...i don't care how you shake it...
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"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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lol you do go on little bits of rants now and again  Seriously though I get what you're saying but while I can agree that Holmgren cant be given the golden fleece yet, what did you expect? We had an absolutely dreadful team at the end of 09 where we won a few quality games by running the ball late in the year and grinding it out. We could have addressed the d-line in the draft, but then our secondary would have been without haden and ward, we might not even have mccoy, and if we wouldn't have picked lauvao someone would be complaining (including me) that we didn't address the O-Line. We also could have waited and gotten lucky and given up a 2nd rounder for mcnabb .. but you saw that he was benched for rex grossman right? And that would have left us with one less pick to draft on the dline as well .. The cupboard was bare and we couldn't fix it all in one year .. if it was THAT easy we would have had coaches JUMPING at the chance to run the browns. The reality is that whether or not Mangini was given a fair shot, we haven't even had Holmgren running the show for a year yet (it might be just slightly over a year by now), and from your post you are calling for his resignation. Why? Because we have a seemingly competant front office? The reality is that EVEN if Shurmur goes 2 or 3 years and fails expectations, then we have a team which is built with through the drafting power of Heckert. If we have 2 more drafts where we bring in 3-5 quality players, and 2 more offseasons that we bring in 2-3 starters / producers in FA .. we will be the talented team that coordinators and coaches want to go to. Until then WHAT COACH or COORDINATOR that we would actually call top of the line would WANT to sacrafice his reputation on us when we have no talent? I mean, I get what you are saying that we can't drink the holmgren Koolaide ... but he hasn't even completed his FIRST vision of the team and you are ready to write him off? What happened to everyone clamoring for consistency?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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oh and 1 last thing: Quote:
"What I know now is that you don't microwave success," (Mangini told Judge). "You build something to last, and that takes a lot of hard work, discipline and patience. Pittsburgh is a great example of that, and it's reflected by its record."
Mangini did what he was supposed to do, which was to lay a foundation for the future and return the Browns to respectability. I don't care that they were 5-11 this season. I care that he took a team that didn't have an abundance of talent but did have an abundance of injuries, as well as the NFL's toughest schedule, and made it a factor.
The Browns were the last team to beat New England. They clobbered defending Super Bowl champion New Orleans in New Orleans. They beat defending AFC North champion Cincinnati, ending a streak of eight straight division wins. They should have beaten Tampa Bay and the New York Jets. They didn't but they also didn't have the players or the talent those clubs did, with Mangini forced to play half the season with his third-string quarterback, rookie Colt McCoy, and without defensive captains Scott Fujita and Robaire Smith.
So injuries happen. They happened in all the wrong places for Cleveland, and they doomed the head coach. Look, I don't know that Mangini would've made it had he beaten Buffalo and Cincinnati or not gotten hammered by Pittsburgh at home in the season finale. But I do know that he didn't have a chance once he couldn't steer clear of those defeats.
That's supposed to be OK because that's life in the NFL. But it shouldn't be OK for Mangini because he did what he was supposed to do -- put the Cleveland Browns back on the map. Yes, you would have liked him to win more, but he made the Browns something they were not, which was relevant -- and if you don't believe me, ask the Patriots.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/14500..._fb_na_txt_0001
Ask Bellichik and New England Patriots if the Browns were not an improved team and going in the right direction under Mangini.
Ask Drew Brees and the Saints the same question
Ask Rex Ryan and his AFC Championship game appearing Jets if the Browns were not going in the right direction under Mangini.
Braylon Edwards even admitted we had something special going after the Jets game.
Mike Holmgren royally messed this up big time and this fanbase is just going to go through more suffering and more losing rebuilding again when we had a system that was finally starting to bear fruit.
Mike Holmgren firing Mangini was a knee jerk reaction...one that will set us back big time.
if Mangini can beat the Patriots with the talent he had here...that is an accomplishment in itself....I think Bellichik would disagree with Holmgren's assessment even though Bellichik didn't get along with Mangini.....theres no denying if you can beat the Patriots, Saints and take the Jets to the wire in 3 straight weeks...your doing something right....Holmgren set us back more then many realize...
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KofB...you have a real bad case of "Giniitis".
Mangini is gone...you need to get over it.
Gini fired himself when his team peaked at midseason only to fall flat and lose their last 4 games, Bills, Bengals, Ravens and a bigtime butt kicking at the hands of the Steelers.
You are so wrong on nearly every point...to many to waist my time debating.
You have gone off the deep end and lost your ability to reason rationally.
jmho
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I know PStu24..im still just really peeved about blowing this whole thing up for another rebuild again when we had something that was working.
Had we kept Mangini and his staff we would actually have a real reason to be talking about the playoffs next year...Mangini's system had finally taken hold in the lockeroom.
we had enough veteran guys and youngster that had bought in that we could start looking at those "swaggy talented players" and we could handle them because the culture was set...Mangini was following Bellichik's plan to the tee and it was working here....
I mean really...the Browns were 1 WR, 1 RB, a DE, and Rush OLB away from being in the mix for the division...we could have addressed 2 or 3 of those positions we would be looking at a wildcard...don't you want a chance at the postseason for a change....this team was so close....thats why i went on a rant...its disheartening to be starting over again.
i'll be fair to Holmgren, hiring Heckert and Weidmar was good decisions, it all hasn't been bad...but firing Eric was a big mistake IMO...big...
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Quote:
KofB...you have a real bad case of "Giniitis".
Mangini is gone...you need to get over it.
Gini fired himself when his team peaked at midseason only to fall flat and lose their last 4 games, Bills, Bengals, Ravens and a bigtime butt kicking at the hands of the Steelers.
You are so wrong on nearly every point...to many to waist my time debating.
You have gone off the deep end and lost your ability to reason rationally.
jmho
whatever mac...injuries derailed Mangini's progress
ya know Hillis had broken ribs
our defensive leader Fujita got hurt.
Bill Yates who played great at RG went down
I mean come on mac....why was the players in the lockeroom all over Twitter pulling for Mangini to stay...
mark my words mac...this was a big mistake...
you ask Tom Brady if the Browns under Mangini were not on the right track.
how bout ask Drew Brees
how bout Rex Ryan
this team was close, but whatever...i guess your just used to losing football...2 years isn't enough time...you ask ANY COACH....you usually don't see major progress until year 3 of a program...Mangini was actually showing some progress in year 2...1 year early...look how much closer in score most of our games were...our D improved a good bit in scoring Defense...we had less penaties...there is more to it then score.
however, I don't expect someone like you to see that...
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Well I can definitely understand where you are coming from.
The Mangini / Holmgren situation was more or less a win-lose.
Either you give the fair shot to Mangini and let him stay 2 or 3 years and force Holmgren to sit on his hands, or you let the guy you hired to run the whole thing make the decisions. I just believe that while Mangini's way could have worked (and I wasn't biased to letting him go or letting him stay either), we needed an organization that was headed in the same direction. That direction has been (or is being) defined by Holmgren, and if he is going to fail it needs to be on his decisions and not because he let the incumbent stay.
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j/c http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...oordinator-job/Dennis Allen to interview for Eagles coordinator job Posted by Gregg Rosenthal on January 20, 2011, 10:41 AM EST Another candidate has emerged for the Eagles defensive coordinator job. Jay Glazer of FOX reports Saints defensive backs coach Dennis Allen will interview for the job. Jim Mora is out of the mix, although a Philadelphia Inquirer report says Mora was “never a serious a candidate.” (A Denver Post article said Mora had a job offer. Hmmm.) Dick Jauron appears to be the leading candidate in Philadelphia. Jauron reportedly told Eagles coach Andy Reid that he wouldn’t make a final decision on his future until Reid was back from vacation. Jauron also interviewed with the Browns.UPDATE: Ravens linebackers coach Dean Pees will also interview with the Eagles, according to Adam Schefter of ESPN. Pees was New England’s defensive coordinator before heading to Baltimore.
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But ...... according to Tony Grossi, players and injuries don;t matter. According to him, great coaches win even if they have to field a high school team. I am reminded of the Rob Ryan quote ...... "No one plays them off of the street like we do, faster. " It was a joke ..... but was it really ......? It was true ..... they had to fill in more spots from thin air than any team I can remember.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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However, doing all of that without getting to call the plays is doing all of the hard work without getting any of the payoff. Seeing as a coordinator cannot be "promoted" to coordinator with a different team where he would call plays, why would a quality candidate take half the job?
Then you should have said it the way you did in this post rather than call it a "glorified QB coach".
But YTown, I understand your misery. I've seen head coaches go whom I didn't want to lose. When Indians manager Mike Hargrove was fired and hired in Baltimore my brother and I drove the distance, in Indian garb, to Baltimore's opening day 04.03.2000, just to show our support for the man. It was a game vs. the Indians. Of course we rooted for the Indians who won the game. Idiotic? Maybe. I got to speak one sentence with John Hart, was interviewed by Marla Ridenour who found it interesting we made that trip with no advance tickets. That interview and my name was on the front page of the Beacon Journal the next day. Point being, I hated to see Hargrove leave Cleveland. I feel your distrust and disappointment.
But that doesn't transfer that everything this Browns FO is doing is way off the mark.
Of course, I agree that being an OC without calling plays is half-the-job. But as has been noted, first by Ammo, that a lot if not all WCO coordinators call their own plays as a head coach. The majority of them have an OC as well. So half-the-job is what is being offered.
And an OC like that is still an OC. Good QB coaches with a great offensive minds would jump on that even if he's not qualified yet to call plays during a game. In our own previous regime, imagine if Daboll, instead of going from QB coach to play calling OC, was the OC but a head coach called the plays. He would have gained valuable knowledge of the offense without having play calling duties where he was in way over his head. Maybe he learned enough here, reflected on it, set goals to make changes and will be successful in Miami. I'm betting against it.
So all we really need is a young, great offensive-minded coach who fits into the Browns new offensive philosophy, is a great teacher and can handle the responsibility of developing a game plan and installing it to the players after it has been tweaked by the play calling head coach. Eventually he will be calling the plays himself just as has happened on many other teams. It's just that the head coach wants the play calling done the way he would do it and bringing in an up and comer to learn under Shurmur, with Holmgrem's watchful eye, is a good plan for success. It may not work given the people involved, but it's still a good plan.
Remember, Shurmur said he would be calling the plays initially so that seems to have been the plan all along. Now, if you could get one of the more experienced OC's to accept that role all the better. So far we have not struck on one of those. But the Browns have to approach them, and it seems they have, even if they think they won't accept, because you never know.
But to get down hard on the organization because they haven't landed one of those experienced OC yet, and may never this season, doesn't mean they don't have a plan and a backup plan and a backup plan to that. I doubt very much Shurmur will be the sole play calling OC. That doesn't make sense to me considering all the other stuff he has on his plate.
Besides, we don't need an experienced play calling OC here if he's not experienced in the WCO-style, even if he was willing to relinquish play calling duties . So many of the guys we've heard about were not the greatest fit to being with. McDaniels for instance was the golden boy OC this off season but does not fit the philosophy of the current regime. To have landed him would have had the same mismatch we had with Dabol and Mangini. Same goes for McCoy.
But I believe Holmgren is leaving no stone unturned in his approach. I believe he did the same for the HC position only we heard nothing of any of it until the race was down to the top three. (And honestly I believe it was down to the top two because I believe Fewell was the Rooney Rule because he's a defensive coach and I don't think we'd have hired one of those.) Unless his interview made Holmgren jump up saying, "We gotta get this guy! ... it was never going to happen. At least we interviewed a qualifying coach and not some DL coach just to satisfy the rule. I guess it's the same either way though.
In his press conference the day he fired Mangini he told us it would be that way in the beginning, no announcements until after the interview. And once Shurmur was hired he went into more detail on it. There is no sense in his naming names since they're not here and not going to be. And there was certainly no sense in his naming names before an interview. Let the rumor mongers handle that. It all makes sense to me.
So all this freaking out because we may not get the most experienced OC in here is just freaking out over nothing. We already have a two year OC who was a 9 or better year QB coach under a great offensive system on a very successful team. Basically the same offensive system he will install here, a little at a time, starting with "small ball" which will have most crying "dink & dunk". But that's what it is. And until they can dink & dunk successfully they'll not likely move on to the more intricate fundamentals of the scheme. I'm not worried at all about the offense.
The coordinators I am concerned about is defense and special teams. I feel we need to keep Seeley and hire a vastly experienced DC preferably with HC experience so he is familiar with the big picture. It doesn't matter if he failed as an HC, the experience of that goes a long way. Just so long as his defenses were successful, he knows how to teach and relate to different personalities and he can tailor his schemes to the talent we currently have on on hand. Shurmur is not a defensive guy. He needs someone who can take over the defensive side with a track record of success.
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It is 100% totally clear that we are rebuilding. Everyone needs to understand that going into the off-season.
We have very little talent aside from a few positions. Our defense is mostly old and questionable and now we're talking about certain shift from the 34 to the 43 which means that most of our LBs are ill-suited. Totally new offensive scheme. New staff etc.
There is an extremely remote chance that we will be as competitive next year as we were this year. It will take a BLOCKBUSTER draft, a flawless FA season and a trouble free off-season re: injured players.
It's clear why Mangini was fired. We fell apart in a big way after the Jets. I believe it was 50-50 going into the Stooler game. If he won, Holms would have had at least, an argument to keep him. I believe he would have. But when we laid that steaming turd on the field, his fate was sealed.
We're in a total rebuild, folks. Couple of years minimum until we are worth a damn.
The lack of talent, the tired angry mob that is the Brown's fanbase, and the fact that the OC won't get the full job means we won't get a real OC.
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But ...... according to Tony Grossi, players and injuries don;t matter. According to him, great coaches win even if they have to field a high school team.
I am reminded of the Rob Ryan quote ...... "No one plays them off of the street like we do, faster. " It was a joke ..... but was it really ......?
It was true ..... they had to fill in more spots from thin air than any team I can remember.
pretty much Ytown...you hit the nail right on the head....of course if Shurmur doesn't get off to a fast start i won't be suprised to see guys like mac calling for his head.
this a complete tear down make no mistake. a total starting from scratch rebuild.
having to learn a whole new offensive and defensive system with a good bit of roster turnover...don't be surprised if were a 4-12 team next year...its not far fetched at all.
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Completely agree that we are rebuilding, but my question is where along the process are we? I want to think that we started rebuilding with mangini in a foundation that could have served anyone ... the tear down and the start of the core pieces ... at least we got a center out of it and a strong core of special teamers. Then last year was just putting in talent to plug as many holes as we could, and it was already seen that we wouldn't have enough to fill them all.
This year (with a *GREAT* not good ) offseason, we could make the jump to be Competitive which is still far off from being good or dominant... but a competitive team can go .500 if our schedule is as easy as we think it will be.
Are we 2 to 3 years off from being a favorite for a division title? Maybe ... maybe longer... But I firmly believe we have added talent and will continue to do so .. the most important decisions will be the front office decisions in the offseason (FA's, Draft and staff hirings), and the playcalling during the season.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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pretty much Ytown...you hit the nail right on the head....of course if Shurmur doesn't get off to a fast start i won't be suprised to see guys like mac calling for his head.
this a complete tear down make no mistake. a total starting from scratch rebuild.
having to learn a whole new offensive and defensive system with a good bit of roster turnover...don't be surprised if were a 4-12 team next year...its not far fetched at all.
No it isn't.
2009 was a total teardown.
2010 was a total rebuild.
2011 is continuing to add those pieces.
Ask yourself: How much better is the Browns offense with 2 legit WR's?
The 2010 draft class will be going into its 2nd year. A new draft class will come in, and if it's ANYTHING like the 2010 class then it will be a massive upgrade.
I see last year's free agent class staying around as well. Fujita is fine in any defensive scheme. Sheldon Brown has at least a year left in him.
There will be roster turnover, no question. Kenyon Coleman? Gone. Shaun Rogers? Gone. Eric Barton? Gone.
That doesn't mean you can't upgrade those positions.
The Eagles were supposedly "rebuilding" last year and they had a pretty successful season, all things considered. Same with the Patriots.
I'm not worried until I see the free agent class and draft. The 2011 Browns will be better than the 2010 Browns in the same way the 2010 Browns were better than the 2009 Browns.
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He set up Eric Mangini to fail...i lost most of my respect for Holmgren after looking at the big picture.
The big picture MH has begun to paint thus far has not been a pretty one.
I thought EM was retained last year because of what EM was able to do with the complete mess he had inherited less than a year prior, apparantly that was not the case, it was because he strung together 4 straight wins to finish off the end of the season. Could MH actually have been that short sighted?
MH should know that the wins will not start happening until you have the talent, there IS a building proccess, one that was CLEARLY underway with EM.
I can understand that a common philosophy is needed(or desired), EM and MH never had that when it came to X's and O's so we should've started all new last year, not NOW, that makes no sense to me.
MH indeed sabatoged last season by allowing the media to run wild with the notion that he may return to the sidelines, way to stand behind your coach Mike, why give the man a chance when you're going to keep a leash so short that failure is more likely than not.
If MH truly knew what he was doing he wouldn't have wasted his first year with us like this.
With that being said, I hope to GOD that I'm wrong about him.
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KofB...you say it was "injuries derailed Mangini's progress"
BUT you said "He (Holmgren) set up Eric Mangini to fail"..!!!!!
So which is it?
Did Holmgren cause the injuries, thus setting up Mangini to fail?
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KofB...you say this in your post claiming Holmgren set Mangini up to fail...
"he brought in Fujita who is a good role player piece, but thats pretty much it."
BUT in this post you say this about Fujita...
"our defensive leader Fujita got hurt"
So which is it..Fujita the "role player" or Fujita "the defensive leader"?
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You are grabbing at straws, blowing off steam, not making any sense from post to the next.
KofB...you say this...
"I saw the writing on the wall in the Draft last year with the Haden and Ward picks that were "system neutral picks" that Holmgren knew exactly what he was doing...Mangini was the fall guy here, and he was royally shafted by Mike Holmgren and I can't wait until he is gone..."
BUT, if you talk to anyone who knows anything about defense, they will tell you that the improvement the Browns experienced on the defensive side of the ball this season was largely due to the improved defensive backfield that Holmgren and Heckert put together...
Then you want to claim some BS like Holmgren shafted Mangini by drafting Haden and Ward.
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You need to get a grip fella...you are beyond the normal peeved...
I never thought I would see the day when Browns fans would feel good about finishing the season 5-11, two years in a row.
Last edited by mac; 01/20/11 01:42 PM.
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