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I wouldn't want my long snapper to do anything besides long snap.

If that guy gets hurt then you are screwed.

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I'm a little unsure about the amount of love being shown for Billy Yates. This guy is average on the best of days and is likely not going to develop into starting material. He looked better the more he played but he's still backup material.

I really didn't like what I saw out of Lauvao this year. Stout guy who just seemed to lack technical skill. Hopefully he develops.

Realistically, I think we need a new right side ASAP and need to start looking around for who will replace Steiny in the not so distant future.

There is some decent OL talent in FA this year that would be distinct upgrades.

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Steinbach is ineffective against bigger defensive tackles and has proven to be a liability in pass protection. While he still is effective on the move, the combination of his declining skills and hefty free agent contract could prove fatal heading into 2011.

Couldn't agree more. I believe Lauvao was drafted to replace him at LG but now everything depends upon whom we hire as OL coach and the system they run. Zone blocking steiny is a different player.






I would say another year from Steiny at LG and Yates at RG is it.
Maybe Lauvao spelling Yates..but they HAVE to draft a OT to get on the right side and make Womack a backup.

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I honestly don't want to draft an olineman any higher than the 5th round...

We need playmakers. Guys that can score, and guys that can cause turnovers..

We have 3 of the 5 pieces on o-line filled, and the other 2 are okay. We can roll with that. Address the WR spot, and get some more gems on the defensive side of the ball, especially if we are going to the 4-3.


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Gimme WR, DE and OT or OG in the first three rounds and I'm a happy kid.

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Hmm.. IF we didn't have this CBA crap hanging over us, I'd advocate getting Tyson Clabo RT in FA and telling the rest of our guys "May the best man win at RG"

Then, depending on if we do 34 or 43 draft either DL or WR


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do you guys really think a mid-round pick will solidify that position?




It's possible. If James Brewer is really as good as he was yesterday then maybe. Some people liked Jah Reid in the E/W shrine game (I didn't so much.) But guys like Joseph Barksdale and Marcus Gilbert could possibly. I do agree that you don't want to hang your hat on that working out, however. It's definitely a significant possibility, though.

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Gimme WR, DE and OT or OG in the first three rounds and I'm a happy kid.




Since we going 4-3. then we need to draft about 3 DL along with signing 2 or 3 more just to get enough bodies here who are capable of playing the position. (and that doesn't even guarantee that they will play it well) If the new brain trust (same as the old brain trust, by the way) decides that Rogers is not a worthwhile component to their new team, then we need yet aother piece of the puzzle. He may stay just because we need his part time body in there. Then again, he may go because we can't afford a 30+ year old part time body on a rebuilding team.

We need WR help. I would say that we need both a veteran versed in the WCO and a draft pick who can make an impact. It would not surpise me to see 1 or 2 of the following playing elsewhere next year: Massaquoi, Robiske, Stuckey. Name me one other WR of any consequence on our team. Yeah, 1 or 2 or maybe even 3 new WRs are not out of the question.

We really have no LB who fit the scheme that Jauron runs.Jauron needs fast LBs who run the field more like a Safety. The MLB is the only larger type LB on the field. Jauron's scheme utilizes smaller DE and OLB who "flow" to the ball, and gang tackle. His scheme does not rely at all on blitzing. We probably need 5 or 6 new LB to make his scheme work, because our best LB, Fujita, doesn't even really fit. He might ba able to play MLB ...... but I'm not even sure about that.

We are basically starting over, and many of our best players are on the wrong side of 30. Watson, Fujita, Steinbach, Womack, Coleman, Brown, and Rogers are all 30 years old or older. Now that's not horrible on a team building towards something ...... but on a rebuilding team, it's a concern.

So, sometime over the next 2-3 years, we will need, on the fly, and while improving the team, to find and/or replace

RT
RG
LG
RB
RB
WR
WR
TE
DE
DT
DE
OLB
MLB
OLB
CB

Those are the starting positions (or 3rd down positions) that we need to, or will need to in the next 2-3 years, find starting players for.

That's 15 players, and that assumes that McCoy is what we hope he is. That doesn't include the backup players we will need to find, as well as the inevitable scrubs we will sign this year to fill spots on the team that cannot be filled with existing players.

We also have no idea what is going to happen with the labor situation, and how that will effect free agency. We are almost in a position where losing all of our free agents would be a good thing if it does the same to other teams as well.

I have a feeling that we are in for a long couple of years. That's not a slam on the coaches or anyone else ..... just the reality of another rebuilding project, and the fact that our 3-4 defense was far ahead of our offense .... and the 3-4 is now being dismantled in favor of the 4-3.

The next couple of years (at least) are going to be rough.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm going to go out to my car and cry for a while.

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Not to take anything away from your post, but our need to get a RG, RB, and CB is debatable (RB slightly less debatable).

Just trying to soften the blow...


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Immediate need

RT Pashos and St. Claire are worthless and Womack is backup material

DE Benard is the only player we have with any rush skills. Hell we need to add a few DE's

DT Great draft for them and should be a few looking for work that dont want to play in the 3-4

RB Good 3rd down back is needed raw speed to swing in this offense true burner (immediate need but you can find in late rounds)


Wait and see positions
QB We need to see what Colt can do

WR We will grab one somewhere but receivers you can always find here and there. Will know more about our receivers after a year in an actual system.

CB resigning Wright is major need a few more no depth here at all

FS Sheldon Brown might be the answer but we need a true playmaking FS

RG and LG I belive in Lauvao, the kid has a world of talent but we need him healthy. Steiny i dont believe in but we need him for another year.

Opps left off linebacker
We have 15 linebackers surely we can find enough to be at least competent in this area. Maiva, DQ, fujita, gocong, Titus Brown. thats a start BTW i really like brown, somethingb about this kid.

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hopefully Brewer could be had in the 5th and all could be happy.

Mr Heckert will make the right decision, hopefully.

they didn't get Fraley, Yates, Kevin Schaffer, Ryan Tucker, Steinbeck, Colman, Womack, or Pashos
In the Draft!

So TL's hopeful picks of WR 1str, DT (ngata size) 2ndr, Chimdi Chekwa, ( cause I know he can cover corner) 3rdr WR pettis or better 4thr
OT over 320lbs 5th rd,
DE 6th rd
LB 7th rd ...

is more of an emphasis I'd place on the positons under the current circumstacnces than anything else.

Whatdya know I had Brewer circled for that OT in the 5th But even so,
It may just be the better move to avoid drafting an O-line this year
Espcecially if you lose 3 of your defensive rotation at defensive tackle.

Imagine what your in store for if Robaire Smith, retires, Shaun Rogers, retires( or injured), Matt Roth goes elsewhere, and Atyba Rubin gets hurt?

all of a sudden Brian Schafering and or K Colman, if he even returns is your best run stopper.

You have 7 or 8 Offensive linemen who have had playing time, adding another is like adding a 7th Wideout.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:

Quote:

It WOULD be nice if Lauvao and Pashos both come around,...then you still have Billy, St Clair and Womack. I'd be looking at getting another C/G too, someone to groom as a backup & replace Pontbriand as that timeline closes (long term idea,...)




Why can't we find a long snapper that can actually fill-in when needed?




I believe everyone loves Pontbiand -- I do -- he does his job as good or better than anyone in the League. But, I too wish he had a backup role, and for all we know maybe he is tagged that way in an emergency.

As for him being hurt and thus the team being screwed, somebody had better be trained as the backup LS,....

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Quote:

Not to take anything away from your post, but our need to get a RG, RB, and CB is debatable (RB slightly less debatable).

Just trying to soften the blow...




We really need another RB, probably that speedy "3rd down" type.

We have Haden, a 31 year old Brown, and Wright who may, or may not, be back. There's not a long term solution opposite Haden.

RG has the same problem.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Clarify: You had RB on there twice, I'm arguing that you can possibly eliminate one of those (if Hardesty magically glues himself back together well enough to be a trusty second back).

RG, I'm saying that Lauvao showed a little something, and *could* bust out in his second year.

RT, all we really need is someone that will keep St. Claire on the bench, and long-term, force him off the team. So far, that hasn't happened which is sad. Picking up a RT in the offseason would be the best solution. Lauvao coming on and having Pork Chop move over would be acceptable and somewhat likely, and Pashos magically getting and staying healthy (doubtful) would accomplish this.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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The problem at RT is that Womack is already 32. Yates is 30. Pashos is 30. St Clair is 33.

That's a lot of age to out a lot of trust in ..... especially when we are probably looking 2-3 years out before we'll contend for anything.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Agreed.

We need to spend a mid-round pick on a RT and let him sit behind one of the veterans for a year.

Hopefully this is what we did with Lauvao and he doesn't just stink.

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So, from that perspective, it doesn't matter to me that we get some high-falootin, high priced draft choice WR when we could solidify RT for 8-9 years like we did JT and Mack's spots. Defense ? I understand "wasting" the pick to fill a slot. No problem. But I also have no qualms about taking a "forever" RT at six, if Holmgren clearly thought it was the thing to do.

Regardless of the plan, if the line never gets fixed, then neither will this football team. And that goes for both sides of the ball.

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Here's the situation...

Player A is a slam dunk above average right tackle for 10 years in the league.

Player B is a raw, talented defensive end who could dominate the league for 10 years or be a league average player.

Which one do you take?

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Lauvao was having a great camp and frankly might have been our best guard period, until the ankle sprain and lost time.

No one will know how players fit until they get a chance to play in the new schemes. We can all speculate but who knows, robo and momass may take to the WCO like a duck to water and Colt ends up being totally lost lol. Guess we just have to wait and see.

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Quote:

Here's the situation...

Player A is a slam dunk above average right tackle for 10 years in the league.

Player B is a raw, talented defensive end who could dominate the league for 10 years or be a league average player.

Which one do you take?




I agree.

I am at the point where we take the very best player regardless of position at #6. We need a superstar there, and a superstar can fit into our team at any position.

Overall, I would concentrate on the DL, WR, and LB in the draft, because we have few players capable of playing those positions in the new scheme currently on the team.

Also, other teams manage to make late round RTs work, so why can't we? Hell, some teams manage to start 5th, 6th, or even 7th rounders, and make them work quite well. Some even start UDFAs. We need to get to the point where we can find 1 or 2 of those guys once in a while.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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My basic philosophy is to score points.

I could ask a lot of "qualifying" questions of your scenario, but straight up, I take the tackle every time, concerning the Browns current situation. In my world, the offense takes the heat off of the defense and you can get away having that DE not be as good.

The Browns were in a lot of games last year because the D wasn't that bad and the offense made many, key, critical errors. That doesn't mean we still don't need a pass rushing DE,...

We've got to continue getting those long, deep, big, ground pounding, HEALTHY linemen in order to control the clock and put up points. We couldn't even run the ball to the right side effectively this year after getting banged up. All we did was throw that incomplete screen to Hillis time-after-time.

Can we get away with picking that RT later,...probably, hopefully. But if he was --I'm not saying anybody this year IS -- a Joe Thomas slam dunk, versus the proposed "above average" guy, I'd do it in a heartbeat, again, considering the Browns current right side look.

It's just a philosophy.

We pick sixth, we're gonna get a stud, and we have a lot of holes to fill. Same talk as last year. The Draft is a crapshoot.


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Quote:

My basic philosophy is to score points.




my basic philosophy is to score more points than the opposition. whether it be alot of points scored or not


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When your offense is anemic, you don't stand much chance of that, regardless of how good your defense is.

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Quote:

Immediate need

RT Pashos and St. Claire are worthless and Womack is backup material

DE Benard is the only player we have with any rush skills. Hell we need to add a few DE's

DT Great draft for them and should be a few looking for work that dont want to play in the 3-4

RB Good 3rd down back is needed raw speed to swing in this offense true burner (immediate need but you can find in late rounds)









I agree though i think we will go DL before OL. Too many stud D-linemen right where we will pick.

As for back, indeed we can get one a bit later...the speed guy.

I like Noel Devine. We may have to trade up out of the 4th to get another 3rd rounder, which is doable enough.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong




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I have not had time to read every post and i apoligize for that, but the left side of our O-line was fine last year. what really, really, really sucked was our right guard and our right tackle. Until we fix the right side of our O-line we will not go any where (and I still have high hopes for Shawn at RG next season) our 1st need for next season is at RT either by the draft or as a free agent.


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I have not had time to read every post and i apoligize for that, but the left side of our O-line was fine last year. what really, really, really sucked was our right guard and our right tackle. Until we fix the right side of our O-line we will not go any where (and I still have high hopes for Shawn at RG next season) our 1st need for next season is at RT either by the draft or as a free agent.




With Yates and 'chop it was actually not that bad.


We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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With Yates and 'chop it was actually not that bad.




Those guys are both backups. While it wasn't that bad, we still have the same issue lately. Somehow people get hurt and..............

The past couple seasons I keep seeing this St. Clair at RT and it annoys me more and more.

What can we do to get one of the WORST O-Linemen in the league off our team?

GMDawg is right, and I was saying it last year.......... RT is definitely a major need. We can find a RG in FA, but finding a decent RT seems to be impossible. If we can't get AJ Green, I'd like to trade down a couple spots if possible and look into getting a RT for the future. Unfortunately, it would be hard keeping Mack, Thomas, and a 6th overall O-Line draft pick (money wise) pick on the roster.

But a decent RT would make a huge difference, I've been saying it for awhile. It would help our running game and give our QB more time. This draft seems to be thin at tackle, so we might have to get one early to find ourselves a decent player.

But yeah, I've wanted a RT for awhile now. I remember last year people saying this Pashos character would be better than what we had; sadly I've seen nothing from him. He had an injury laden history, comes here and gets hurt. I don't see that changing. It sucks to say, but I don't really think we've had anyone better than Kevin Schaffer lately, may be Porkchop on running plays......... Ryan Tucker was our last real RT and he was worth his weight in gold (expression not necessarily truth...... he was kinda a heavy guy and gold is expensive)

So yeah, I'm with you GM. I want AJ Green if he's there, otherwise, try to trade down and get a RT. If that's not possible, I'd like a defensive player, probably that guy from LSU Peterson. He'd be great to go along with Joe Haden. If not him then a D-Lineman I guess, but I just get weary of D-Lineman in the draft because we've had a few busts like Big Penny and Brown (sadly, too many injuries ruined him). Why screw around? A lot of these D-Lineman seem to be one year college wonders. That guy Peterson will definitely be good, the same way we knew Haden would be good (at least I did, although some moron reporter scared everyone into thinking he was too "slow", who was that idiot?)

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I think Ytown you may be stuck in an era before salary cap because it is no longer viable for teams to be above average at every position. Every team has holes:
Steelers;
Offensive Line
Corners get burnt when rush doesn't get there

Packers;
Running game is a product of their passing game and their running QB
If Rogers wasn't as moblie everyone would be talking about how bad their o-line is

Even the patriots have holes you just have to try to get your holes up to average. Now that we are switching to a 4-3 there is no use in crying over spilt milk. To be honest I think the two glaring holes that have to be fixed with big investments:

WR Corp: I think we need to bring in at least two guys. Maybe a FA and draft a high round player whether it be AJ Green, Julio Jones, or a 2nd WR like Hankerson, Baldwin, or Torrey Smith. Either I think we need to take a WR within the first two rounds:

Defensive End: The 4-3 relies on its front to get pressure. I think between Rubin, Rogers, Smith and co. I think we can find 2 guys to play DT. Now the end is whole another problem. There are two blue chip prospects in Quinn and Bowers but I don't know if either make it to us. We may pass on Jones to select Quinn because WR maybe easier to find in the 2nd round where it seems there is a dearth of 4-3 DEs with the potential we need.

Other than those two areas I think we can cobble to together a fairly competitive team. The right side of the line didn't look bad with Yates. I think between Lauvao and 4-6th round RT prospect our right side of the line would be okay. We have to remember the right side of our line was obliterated by injuries.Assuming we resign Wright we may want to draft or try to sign a veteran CB. Look at the Packers. They got T. Williams in the later rounds and that Shields kid went undrafted. If we want a winning record we are going to have to have a good draft and get a little lucky. With that said the most important piece is Colt McCoy. If becomes the player we all hope then we will win and make the FO look like Albert Einstein.Colt is the key.


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Quote:

The problem at RT is that Womack is already 32. Yates is 30. Pashos is 30. St Clair is 33.

That's a lot of age to out a lot of trust in ..... especially when we are probably looking 2-3 years out before we'll contend for anything.




Steinbach is 30,

And...... Vallos is 27, Thomas is 26, Mack is 25 and Lauvao is 23.

right here ^ is a core of young players. Add a young tackle and ,voila, a young OL for the future.

Vallos was a 7th round pick in 2007, so it seems that Holmgren is familiar with him and brought him here for a reason. Vallos was signed off waivers Sept. 7th. that was about the time Lauvao went down with the ankle sprain IIRC? Vallos spent alot of time on Seattle's PS and was activated the final 3 or 4 games of this past season.

Both Heckert and Holmgren should know if Vallos has what it takes to either be a potential starter or a decent back-up. I'm hoping for one or the other. I wish I knew more about this guy.

Steinbach has three more years left on his contract through the 2013 season.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Steinbach

And although he is making top 5 guard money is prolly not a top 5 guard. He is, however, durable. That has to count for something.

What I'm not understanding is the discounting of Pashos. Sure, he has been hurt a lot the past two seasons but played quite well when healthy. I understand the " he is always hurt" argument, but that was not the case for the first 5 years of his career. He could be injury free the rest of his career. Right?

The statement made earlier in the thread was " St. Clair is the worst OL in the league" or something like that. I'm certain he is not that bad, but clearly he has seen better days and is our weak link. He has spent some time at LT so in a sense his services are valuable.

So we either get a vet that is better than St. Clair, I have already stated my solution earlier in this thread, or a draftee in prolly a later/ mid round to develop into a starter.

We traded our 7th round pick this year to get Seneca Wallace, but have Denver's 6th from the Brady Quinn trade. We might be able to move up with those two 6ths. Both of those 6ths are "almost" 5th rounders. We are going to need our top 5 picks to fill other needs. Hopefully a bright tackle prospect falls to the late 5th or early 6th.

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just clicking...

The Browns need to continue rebuilding their offensive line via the draft...that said, this may not be the year that the process continues.

The injury status of Tony Pashos and Shawn Lauvao could determine whether the Browns draft an RT or an OG in this draft. If both Pashos and Lauvao make a full recovery from their injuries, I doubt that the Browns draft any Olinemen.

My dream pick would be Marcus Cannon, TCU, but it's hard to justify a first round Oline draft pick when the Browns have so many needs on defense.




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You can get a pretty good RT in the 3rd or a really good RT in the 2nd. I would never take a RT in the first unless he was clearly the best player and no decent trade options.

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I hope Carimi is still there in the second round,....a lot of this will of course have to do with how the FO feels about what we have and the aforementioned FA market. If Carimi was indeed a Joe Thomas slam dunk, I wouldn't have any problem with taking him at six, except that the Browns have other needs too, virtually everywhere. It makes BPA pretty much the MO here,...Crapshoot otherwise.

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Vallos is another of those longshot types. I wouldn't count on him to be a future starter.

We have a couple of great players in Mack and Thomas.

Vallos and Lauvoa are both untested guys. They might develop into starters, and they might not.

We have a lot of holes. We can be hopeful and all, but realistically, not both Vallos and Lauvoa are going to make it. That means that we have the start of a line, but we still need pieces.

Someone either on this thread or another that we don't need to have All Pros at each and every position, and that's true, but we do need "Plus" type players at more positions than not.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You mean "Plus" as in better than above average (?), or players -- speaking OLIne here -- that can play more than one position ? (Since injury appears to be a long-lasting pariah around this team,...)

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I mean "Plus" as in above average.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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OK,...then I'll back off and hope to get a guy like GC in 2 or 3,....

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Teams never go wrong with drafting great players. They always find the field.

If I had Joe Thomas, and another Joe Thomas was the best player in the draft, I'd take him. If I somehow wound up with back to back picks in the first, and there were 2 Joe Thomases and a bunch of "maybes", then I take both Thomases. I figure out how to play them, or use them as chips to be traded.

It seems to me that teams that get in trouble at the top of the draft do so because they have a desperate need, and talk themself into taking a player to fill that need. "Oh, we really need a QB, and this guy has questions, but he "might" be great ........" and we all know how that works out.

Taking great players works out far better than taking "needs". Now, if you have 2 or 3 top rated players and 1 fits a dire need, then take him. However, in retorspect, we should never have taken Couch with all of his question marks. We should never have taken Warren when other players were rated higher by our scouts. We "needed" a RB and took Green. We "needed" OL and took Faine. We "needed" a pass rusher more than a NT and traded away a great interior DL to our division rivals and took a LB project.

The draft is never a certainty, and it never will be, However, some teams seem to always find quality players in the 1st and 2nd rounds, even though they draft consistently lower. Why? Because they take the best possible players instead of reaching to supposedly fill a need.

Compare our roster to those of the Steelers and Ravens. Look at the 1st and 2nd round picks they have compared to ours. Have a bucket ready, because you'll want to throw up.

Going into this draft there are 4 spots, specifically, that we would probably like to address in the 1st round. Those would be WR, DL, LB, and CB. Whichever of those spots is highest rated when we pick is likely to be our pick. Luckily there is quality at most of those spots, so we should come away from this draft with a great player.


Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:

Teams never go wrong with drafting great players. They always find the field.

If I had Joe Thomas, and another Joe Thomas was the best player in the draft, I'd take him. If I somehow wound up with back to back picks in the first, and there were 2 Joe Thomases and a bunch of "maybes", then I take both Thomases. I figure out how to play them, or use them as chips to be traded.

It seems to me that teams that get in trouble at the top of the draft do so because they have a desperate need, and talk themself into taking a player to fill that need. "Oh, we really need a QB, and this guy has questions, but he "might" be great ........" and we all know how that works out.

Taking great players works out far better than taking "needs". Now, if you have 2 or 3 top rated players and 1 fits a dire need, then take him. However, in retorspect, we should never have taken Couch with all of his question marks. We should never have taken Warren when other players were rated higher by our scouts. We "needed" a RB and took Green. We "needed" OL and took Faine. We "needed" a pass rusher more than a NT and traded away a great interior DL to our division rivals and took a LB project.

The draft is never a certainty, and it never will be, However, some teams seem to always find quality players in the 1st and 2nd rounds, even though they draft consistently lower. Why? Because they take the best possible players instead of reaching to supposedly fill a need.

Compare our roster to those of the Steelers and Ravens. Look at the 1st and 2nd round picks they have compared to ours. Have a bucket ready, because you'll want to throw up.

Going into this draft there are 4 spots, specifically, that we would probably like to address in the 1st round. Those would be WR, DL, LB, and CB. Whichever of those spots is highest rated when we pick is likely to be our pick. Luckily there is quality at most of those spots, so we should come away from this draft with a great player.




Yep,...bottom line.

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also, do not forget that Steinbach's other major asset is that he can play any position on the OL if needed.


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