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Actually that would be FACT and not opinion, based on Florida has had it's coldest winter since 1981 based on average temperature.
He made no comparison to Ohio's weather.
Good point? 
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Actually that would be FACT and not opinion,
florfan...is this Mangini's fault?.... 
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Actually that would be FACT and not opinion,
florfan...is this Mangini's fault?....
Mac, read his comment... He stated a fact "Florida is colder than usual this year", then asked a question "Is that Mangini's fault?"
How can you not read that correctly. He never stated it WAS Mangini's fault. He was using extreme examples to demonstrate other points in this thread.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Do we need to draw diagrams for some folks?
It is a fact that I saw no reports of this DE tearing it up in practice, this leads to my opinion that he was Not our "best pass-rusher".
SFAIK, the DC chooses the personnel on the field. There probably is input from the HC and ultimately it would be his choice. I saw no reports of any disagreement on this issue, I have seen statements that this DE is better in a 4-3, This leads to my opinion, as above, that he was Not "our best pass-rusher" according to two Coaches.
The bad trade value probably had input from the HC, but that is ultimately on the plate of the FO. Specifically the guy calling him "our best pass-rusher". The same guy who should have signed him to a longer-term deal to be "our best pass-rusher".
Nobody is perfect, everybody makes mistakes, and Heckert seems to be doing a good job.
Harrison's motivation and work-ethic had been questioned by the previous regime. His style of production is better suited to an offense that can routinely pick up a 3rd and 8, or 6, or even anything over four yards. We do not yet have one of those.
The thread IS about issues from 2010, which some have noticed actually IS in the past.
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Do we need to draw diagrams for some folks?
Just Mac.. 
And occasionally, me 
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Just Mac..
And occasionally, me
OCCASIONALLY?......... 
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OK, which would you rather have ...... Harrison, who from reports was half assing it in practice, and was clearly upset at having been replaced as the starter ....... or Bell, who might not be as talented as far as speed goes, but who has been effective in the past as a starter, and who should have fit the offense we ran?
Bell has had 2 stretches where he has been an effective, if unspectacular RB. (2006 for the Broncos, and 2009 for the Saints) He's run for 1400 yards and 14 TDs, so he's not a complete bum. He's a backup. It did seem to take him a while to get going with the offense, which was disappointing. He did run effectively against Baltimore, and decently against Pittsburgh in the carries he received, and given the strength of those defenses.
Its not fair to Bell to criticize him for not tearing it up when he first got here before he learned the offense, so I'm trying not to do that... But when you know for a fact your job is dependent on how you do right here and now, why do you ask your GM to trade a guy who had a huge hand in saving your job the season before for a guy you know is gonna be ineffective for awhile until he gets accustomed to the team? Mike Bell may have been better for our system than Harrison, that's debatable as he's another big back and you can make an argument that a shifty change of pace back compliments Hillis pretty well...
I mean, I guess I'm having trouble understanding the thought process. If Harrison is known to produce when he's motivated and slack off when he isn't, wouldn't have it been better to motivate him than get rid of him in the short term, especially when the short term is all you're guaranteed to be around for?
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Just Mac..
And occasionally, me
OCCASIONALLY?.........
OK OK,, At least I admit when I'm wrong.. can you say that about Mac?
#GMSTRONG
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He built average with his long runs. Without those, he is a less than average back. We've had this same convo on here before and I never said the 10+ yarder shouldn't count. What I said and what I stand behind is if you take away the 79 and 60 yarders then you will get a better indication of a player's truer average YPC. (unless he were to pop one each week for 40+ then including it would not be outside the norm)
The problem with your reasoning that I see is if you apply it to Barry Sanders then he is a bottom feeding scrub. He was the posterboy for having carries of -2, 1, 0, then popping off an 85 yarder. He built a hall of fame career on exactly what your criticizing Jerome Harrison for. Not saying Jerome would be Barry if he played more, but he has gotten his ypc in much the same way.
Also, if you're using qualifiers like taking away his longest runs then you must also take away all of his shortest runs. To not do that would be fudging facts to prop up an agenda, rather than presenting facts to back up an argument.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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The list of former NFL players is filled with talented but unmotivated players.
Every year guys with immense talent and ability find themselves unemployed while guys with less raw talent and more drive and determination find jobs in the NFL.
People talk about coaches motivating players ...... but at the NFL level you have millionaires with an immense sense of entitlement. Some coaches are better at getting full effort out of these players .... but even coaches like Bill Belichick can give up on incredibly talented players like Randy Moss eventually.
A guy like Harrison definitely has a lower level of tolerence from the coaches and front office.
I wonder how our RB coach felt about Harrison reportedly blowing off in meetings, and half assing it on the practice field. We kept that guy ..... so maybe the front office felt that it wasn't the coaches, but rather the player.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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so maybe the front office felt that it wasn't the coaches, but rather the player.
The same front office you claim are killing the team by not hiring a OC... 
So just had to. 
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The list of former NFL players is filled with talented but unmotivated players.
Every year guys with immense talent and ability find themselves unemployed while guys with less raw talent and more drive and determination find jobs in the NFL.
People talk about coaches motivating players ...... but at the NFL level you have millionaires with an immense sense of entitlement. Some coaches are better at getting full effort out of these players .... but even coaches like Bill Belichick can give up on incredibly talented players like Randy Moss eventually.
A guy like Harrison definitely has a lower level of tolerence from the coaches and front office.
I wonder how our RB coach felt about Harrison reportedly blowing off in meetings, and half assing it on the practice field. We kept that guy ..... so maybe the front office felt that it wasn't the coaches, but rather the player.
I agree, for whatever reason Harrison did not want to be here and it showed. I still think he should have been traded or cut in the offseason though and not midseason, there's a reason you don't see midseason trades much in the NFL...I think he had more value to us staying for the second half of the year than getting Mike Bell did.
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so maybe the front office felt that it wasn't the coaches, but rather the player.
The same front office you claim are killing the team by not hiring a OC...
So just had to.
Just because I disagree with a particular decision doesn't mean that I think that they "suck" or can't make a good decision elsewhere.
Hell, I have publicly said that I am glad that they didn't keep the WR Coach from last year. There are decisions they make that I agree with, and others that I vehemently disagree with. In the end, I hope that they are 100% right and I am wrong, because that means that we win as opposed to losing.
As a side note:
It's kinda weird that Mangini has lost his last 2 jobs, yet many of his offensive coaches have managed to stay on with his old teams. Schottenheimer in NY, and I believe some of his other ofensive assistants remained with the team after Ryan came in, and now several of our "former" assistants are staying with the team into the Shurmur regime. You don't often see that in the NFL, yet it's happened twice on teams where Mangini has been replaced.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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As a side note:
It's kinda weird that Mangini has lost his last 2 jobs, yet many of his offensive coaches have managed to stay on with his old teams. Schottenheimer in NY, and I believe some of his other ofensive assistants remained with the team after Ryan came in, and now several of our "former" assistants are staying with the team into the Shurmur regime. You don't often see that in the NFL, yet it's happened twice on teams where Mangini has been replaced.
YT... it might mean Mangini's judgement of coaching talent, "in some cases", is ok.
Also, Holmgren and Heckert had the opportunity to watch the entire coaching staff for a season and could clearly see which coaches would fit in with Shurmur's offensive system.
Warhop, the Oline coach is a veteran NFL Oline coach, who's long record which speaks for itself. I was glad to see him retained.
Hagan, the TE coach must have impressed the brass.
Gary Brown, the RB coach sure looked to do a good job with Hillis, with the exception of "fumbles".
IMO, the worst hire Mangini made on the offensive side of the ball was Daboll.
It's difficult to know if some coaches were retained because the Browns were unable to hire coaching candidates they preferred.
It is probably better to retain a coach who is doing a decent job rather than hire a replacement you know nothing about. We will know more about those retained, if they remain on Shurmur's coaching staff after this season.
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It is probably better to retain a coach who is doing a decent job rather than hire a replacement you know nothing about. We will know more about those retained, if they remain on Shurmur's coaching staff after this season.
It might also have something to do with their knowledge of our players.
I think Daboll and the WR Coach were the weak links on Mangini's offensive staff.
It doesn't surprise me that some of the above mentioned Coach's where retained.
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Good coaches obviously. But I believe in what you say about knowledge of our players. To expand on that there is also the "continuity" factor whereas those positions these coaches are responsible for will not feel so estranged as they might with an entirely new coaching staff. For those guys it will be business as usual.
Plus, with the OL coach, Warhop, knowing the players strength and weaknesses will help a great deal in guiding them into the WCO style. Same goes for the TE and RB coaches.
Those who were retained were done so with good thought given the decisions. Those who were not it was the same. The WR's are going to be doing something very different than they have been coached to do so far. That's going to take someone very knowledgeable and experienced in the WCO philosophy. A change was needed there.
I'm feeling pretty good about the staff overall.
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The problem with your reasoning that I see is if you apply it to Barry Sanders then he is a bottom feeding scrub. He was the posterboy for having carries of -2, 1, 0, then popping off an 85 yarder. He built a hall of fame career on exactly what your criticizing Jerome Harrison for. Not saying Jerome would be Barry if he played more, but he has gotten his ypc in much the same way.
OMG we are now comparing Jerome Harrison to Barry Sanders?? Sanders carried the ball 300 times a year every year while Harrison has 300 carries in 6 years.
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Also, if you're using qualifiers like taking away his longest runs then you must also take away all of his shortest runs. To not do that would be fudging facts to prop up an agenda, rather than presenting facts to back up an argument.
You're right and I did just that on here with Harrison after the 2009 season and he had those "awesome" games. Now you feel free to do it with Barry Sanders and we'll compare.
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The problem with your reasoning that I see is if you apply it to Barry Sanders then he is a bottom feeding scrub. He was the posterboy for having carries of -2, 1, 0, then popping off an 85 yarder. He built a hall of fame career on exactly what your criticizing Jerome Harrison for. Not saying Jerome would be Barry if he played more, but he has gotten his ypc in much the same way.
I'm not that old, only 25. So I didn't get to see too much of Barry Sanders.
But I do remember watching a few games of his in his final year or years. The games I saw were not like that at all. Barry Sanders would get the ball, run to the outside, make guys miss and he'd be picking up 5-7 yards at a time.
He was ridiculously good. I begged my dad to buy me his Lions jersey after watching him.
Sure, his average was probably helped out by some long runs, and may be against good defenses, he wasn't that effective, but from what I remember of Barry Sanders, he was much better than Harrison, and when he'd carry the ball, he'd usually get decent positive yardage.
Not -2 yard, 1 yard, etc. More like 5 yards at a time, and then he'd bust a big one.
This is reflecting back when I had to be in elementary school (I remember the Lions w/o him beating Parcells' Jets in the final game of the season (keeping them from the playoffs his first year as coach) with may be a guy named James Stewart?), but the few games I got a chance to see of Sanders, he was phenomenal. No couple yards at a time but a big one, he was getting good yards every time, then bust a big one
My favorite RBs ever were Tiki Barber and Curtis Martin, those guys both were very good. But Barry Sanders was much better than either of them
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you are correct in that later in his career he got much better at always ending up with positive yardage.
it's hard to not remember early in his career, specifically a T-day game against the Bears where Madden broke down that he ran 60+yds on one play (and gained less than a yard). it was against the Bears and was a thing of beauty other than the end result if you were a Lions fan.
so, many like me have marked memories of plays like that which stick out more than those 5-7yd runs.
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OMG we are now comparing Jerome Harrison to Barry Sanders??
May I suggest learning to read at a 3rd grade level before you pounce on what you percieve as an opportunity to belittle someone else?
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Not saying Jerome would be Barry if he played more, but he has gotten his ypc in much the same way.
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Barry Sanders played behind a porous offensive line for most of his career and was routinely met by defenders when he first took a hand off. He was so good that he would get his yards by evading that defender and ripping off chunks of yards. He was not superman however, he couldn't break every tackle and often had negative or no gain runs.
I never said Harrison was that type of player. What I said was if you're basing the argument solely on stats and proclaiming a player sucks because he has a lot of short or negative runs but some long ones mixed in to bring his average up then you must come to the same conclusion about Barry Sanders.
The point I was making was that obviously Barry Sanders is one of the best of all time, which is an example of why the logic is faulty. Some how some people saw that as an opportunity to be condescending but ended up looking like something I can't say on this board as I don't like 10 day bans.
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Plus, Barry Sanders lowest yards/carry was 4.3. That was twice in his career. Every other year was higher.
His lowest yardage was in his 2nd season when he ran for 1304 yards. That was his lowest. Compare that to Hillis last year for comparison.
He had 9 or more rushing TDs in 7 of his 10 seasons.
He ran for 1500 or more yards 5 times in his career, and fell 30 yards short of a 6th time, and 9 yards short a 7th time. That was in a 10 year career. His lowest season was an injury plagued season where he only played in 11 games, and still ran for 1115 yards.
He was also an adept pass receiver.
Man was he a fun guy to watch run. What an amazing talent. He played on teams with Bob Gagliano, Rodney Peete, Eric Kramer, Andre Ware, Scott Mitchell, Don Majkowski, Charlie Batch, and Frank Reich all starting at QB over his career there.
Imagine if they would have had 1 good QB sometime in his career. On the other hand, imagine how much worse those guys would have been without Sanders to hand off to. lol
He only made the playoffs 3 times, IIRC. The year where he ran for over 2000 yards, the rest of the team was so bad that they could only tie for 3rd in their division with a 9-7 record.
I wish he would have played on a team that was even halfway decent. He was a greta players, he would have been best all time, no doubt about it if he had played on a good team, with good coaching, and good QB play. Unfortunately, he played on crap teams.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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To add to what you're saying, YTown, they also had a run-n-shoot offense during some of his years as well with the obvious emphasis on the pass.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Trade him and Emmitt Smith and I think we'd be saying Barry was the best of all time hands down...could you imagine Barry running behind the Cowboys line when they Had Allen, Newton et al?
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Hell, Imagine Sanders running while Aikman was opening things up with the passing game ......
That would have been completely unfair to the rest of the NFL.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I always loved Sanders, but he is a quitter, and that tarnished him in my eyes. He quit on his team and did it abrutly, to me that effects his legacy. JMHO
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Trade him and Emmitt Smith and I think we'd be saying Barry was the best of all time hands down...could you imagine Barry running behind the Cowboys line when they had Allen, Newton et al?
Imagine that,...a wisp of the physicality of a Jerome Bettis or Peyton Hillis, and Smith gets 17,000-some yards.
I have NEVER wondered about that.
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sorry but that in a nutshell was mangini's achilles heel. Once you were in his doghouse you STAYED there and you were NOT coming out. Harrisson played lights out and the rarely saw the field. trading him for the played out nag bell was a joke trade, and he gave hillis NO HELP, yet it was bell's A game. I cry no tears for mangini, it is Ryan where I am angry we did not give him the job as assistant head coach of hire Shurmer as the OC and Hire Ryan as the HC. Players played their hearts out for Ryan, yet we did zilch to keep him and hired a thin resume OC as his new head coach and don't even talk to Ryan. great move. 
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sorry but that in a nutshell was mangini's achilles heel. Once you were in his doghouse you STAYED there and you were NOT coming out.
And you know this ..... how?
The decision was made that Hillis was going to be the starter. It's hard to argue with that decision. Harrison, reportedly, did not react well to that decision, and so the front office traded him after week 5, in which he had 6 carries for 6 yards.
What other players do you believe went into Mangini's "doghouse" as you put it? I can't think of any. Maybe Lauvoa didn't get another chance after multiple injuries. (and multiple injuries to QBs, at which point Mangini may have decided that veteran was better than a rookie learning on the field and maybe getting another QB killed ... again)
Mangini let Wright try to play through his problems, giving the starting job to Haden only when he had earned it. Mangini stayed with the WR corps (or corpse) even when they were ineffective in hopes that they might develop, and in recognition of the fact that QB play had hurt them a lot. People whined about Evan Moore, and how he "was in Mangini's doghouse", but, as it turned out, he was actually injured.
I can't really think of anyone else.
Obviously Harrison's attitude was bad enough that the front office traded him away immediately rather than trying to make things work out somehow. I don't have a problem with that in the least ..... no matter who the head coach is/was. I won;t have any problem in a similar situation, should there be one, under Shurmur either. The head coach is the boss. If a particular player feels that he shoudl receive special treatment because of "who he is", then I have no problem with the coach nailing his ass to the bench.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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May I suggest learning to read at a 3rd grade level before you pounce on what you percieve as an opportunity to belittle someone else?
Wasn't attempting to belittle. WAS LOL at your comparing Sanders to Harrison......and your false statement on Sanders' YPC.
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What other players do you believe went into Mangini's "doghouse" as you put it? I can't think of any.
I can't really think of anyone else.
Wallace
Fraley
McDonald
Francies
What do they have in common? They never were in any "trouble" or known problem makers before or after being a Brown under Mangini...they all would have been better options than what EM threw onto the field at some point in his tenure....that's a given too
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FWIW
Sanders had a 5.0ypc career AVG
Harrison has a 4.8ypc career AVG
Harrison's would come down significantly if he was the go to guy getting 20+ carries every week....but 4.8 is still pretty good for a backup, good luck finding an NFL backup change of pace RB with a better AVG, that's pretty much as good as it gets and we lost him because our ex-HC had to take down his frustration to some lower leverage player on his roster...as he always liked to do...meanwhile Rogers was taking days off, other high salary guys like StClair, Royal, Delhomme sucked and they all still got plenty of playing time...that's a HC with no onions right there...my point being: if he gave Harrison a "lesson" with the kneel down or playing scrubs like Jennings over him for "slacking off", why was Rogers or StClair getting free passes time and time again?
Your discipline hero was basically a two-faced coward bullying the weak guys...great guy, great role model
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I still "stew" at the Fraley deal. He could have at least played that right guard and tutored Mack,...
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To be fair you are absolutely correct on Harrison as far as productivity from a 3rd down back is concerned.
I looked into a couple others and was surprised. Darren Sproles has only a 4.6 ypc average and it's on less carries then Jerome. Tim Hightower had a significant amount of carries and it's only at 3.9 avg, and Michael Bush has only a 4.4 in oakland. Bernard scott is a burner backup in cincy but only has a 4.6 as well. And Javon Ringer down in Tennessee has a 4.9 but has only had 59 total attempts ...
Just a few of the "bigger named" backups that I thought would have more and actually didn't.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Jul 2007
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Quote:
I still "stew" at the Fraley deal. He could have at least played that right guard and tutored Mack,...
Agreed. From what I remember, shortly after Hank was released his wife came on here and said the Browns told Hank he had nothing to worry about two weeks beforehand.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Quote:
I still "stew" at the Fraley deal. He could have at least played that right guard and tutored Mack,...
Agreed. From what I remember, shortly after Hank was released his wife came on here and said the Browns told Hank he had nothing to worry about two weeks beforehand.
I remember the same thing.. and I really didn't like the release of Hank.. solid team guy and certainly dependable back up at two positions on the Oline. I'd have loved to have him remain here.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
only thing that bugs me about harrison is that we didn't get more for him. how did we not get involved for talks w/ green bay after all the trouble they had with the backfield?
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
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Could it have been part of the "weeding out" process that Mangini got rid of the leaders from the previous regime? I mean if you want to avoid controversy you bring in your own guys but also have to get rid of the "threats" to the team vision. Previous team captains are looked up to by the whole team so they must be threats.
It wouldn't account for Joe Thomas or Cribbs, but Jamal Lewis (2009 captain), Phil Dawson (08,09) Hank and Derek in (2008) Andra Davis and Willie McGinnest were in 2008 as well but I cant remember if they simply left in FA or were ushered out the door.
I specifically remember Jamal having a few interviews while he was upset and saying they were overworked. Wasn't Hank our player rep? It explains why he would be gone if he had a ton of locker room influence. Phil has been quietly disgruntled for a few years ...
I'm not being a conspiracy theorist ... just saying when you change the culture you need to remove the previous people of power as well.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
i hope it's not like that with shurmur. it seems like for the most part our guys all tend to get along with each other. they constantly talk on twitter.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,088 |
Quote:
Could it have been part of the "weeding out" process that Mangini got rid of the leaders from the previous regime? I mean if you want to avoid controversy you bring in your own guys but also have to get rid of the "threats" to the team vision. Previous team captains are looked up to by the whole team so they must be threats.
It wouldn't account for Joe Thomas or Cribbs, but Jamal Lewis (2009 captain), Phil Dawson (08,09) Hank and Derek in (2008) Andra Davis and Willie McGinnest were in 2008 as well but I cant remember if they simply left in FA or were ushered out the door.
I specifically remember Jamal having a few interviews while he was upset and saying they were overworked. Wasn't Hank our player rep? It explains why he would be gone if he had a ton of locker room influence. Phil has been quietly disgruntled for a few years ...
I'm not being a conspiracy theorist ... just saying when you change the culture you need to remove the previous people of power as well.
The timing on all that doesn't work out I don't think.. Didn't Hank get released after Heckert and Holmgren came in and Mangini no longer had full roster control.. I thought so?
Lewis was injured and was pretty much at the end of his career. he really needed to go. (did anyone ever sign him after he left here?)
With Dawson, it's all about money. He wants more (personally, I think he should get more)
You might still see Dawson resigned. I mean after all the hubbub with the CBA is settled that is.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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