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I absolutely take Dareus over Peterson. BPA? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, with the defensive changes coming, a stud DL would be the BPA for the Browns.
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Quote:
I absolutely take Dareus over Peterson. BPA? Who knows? But one thing is for sure, with the defensive changes coming, a stud DL would be the BPA for the Browns.
Interesting that you say that. I remember the Browns drafting the best DL in the draft a few years and getting next to nothing for it. To be fair, we didn't have anything in secondary, which made the job of the DL that much more difficult.
I still say that having the cornerbacks that can actually cover and hard-hitting safeties looking to lay some smack on a receiver will improve your defense more than an DL will.
That isn't to say that you can just plug anyone in the DL. Those players still have to have skills to stop the run or eat up the blocks so the LBs can make the stops on run plays or get the sacks on pass plays. But as long as the threat to go deep exists, you're not going to be able to successfully stop either the run or pass.
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If you're refering to Country Brown the guy couldn't stay on the field. He played well when on the field though. Gerrard Warren was a solid player, that was perhaps over evaluated/over drafted coming out of college. I know reputable sites like OBR has always defended him to a bit saying he was a good player. Granted his comments about "big money" didn't sit well with Browns fans.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Legend
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Big penny!
Always gregarious.
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Quote:
If you're refering to Country Brown the guy couldn't stay on the field. He played well when on the field though. Gerrard Warren was a solid player, that was perhaps over evaluated/over drafted coming out of college. I know reputable sites like OBR has always defended him to a bit saying he was a good player. Granted his comments about "big money" didn't sit well with Browns fans.
Is that a joke? Big Penny was not much of a player at all. He was pretty useless in the run game, and he wasn't particularly good at the pass rush.
He had no discipline which left our defense trying to fix the mistakes that he was making. Especially under Dave Campo's system where he was supposed to be disciplined and let the linebackers make more of the plays. He was selfish, and put our defense out of position against the run
Isn't he the one who made that line before playing the Steelers and Roethlisberger
"Cut off the head, and the team is dead" or something like that.
Big Penny was NOT a good D-Linemen. Is he NFL caliber, yes. But GOOD, no way!
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Sounds to me like the GM then didn't draft a player to fit the coach's system.
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Quote:
Sounds to me like the GM then didn't draft a player to fit the coach's system.
And the GM (might as well have been Butch Davis), drafted Big Penny over LT and Richard Seymour, when all the scouts said the guy wasn't that good.
What system has Big Penny been good in? He wasn't GOOD in Denver, and I think he's in New England now, and he's not particularly good for them.
The guy had a big mouth, didn't back it up, he had lazy practice habits. He was undisciplined, bad against the run, and only concerned with trying to get to the QB while leaving his teammates out to dry (which he wasn't even that good at, if you're Albert Haynesworth you can be undisciplined, Big Penny no way).
Other than being able to stay in the NFL, he has not been a good NFL player. Mediocre, may be. Good, no way.
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I remember every summer back then there was a story on how Gerard Warren was feeling rejuvinated and ready to have a monster season. Too bad it never happened.
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I'm referring to both of them. I'd also throw in Shaun Rogers in that mix.
Give me shutdown corner over the best DL in any draft EVERY TIME. If I already had two shutdown corners and another one was available, I'd select him and have three shutdown corners in my backfield.
I might be convinced to select an outrageous sack machine LB like Lawrence Taylor or Derrick Thomas, then I might be willing to take them over a third shutdown corner.
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Yes, I know we didn't draft Shaun Rogers. We got him from Detroit. The same applies. He was brought in to be a force on the DL. Never happened. We would have been better served getting a quality DB.
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Shaun Rogers in 2007 was a force and about the only decent Dlineman we had.Guy player his heart out.; Injuries and scheme changes along with butting heads with the coach plus age kept him off the field since.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Legend
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Give me shutdown corner over the best DL in any draft EVERY TIME.
Reading this I thought, "WHAT!?!?!"
Why would anyone think you would want the shutdown corner over the best D-Linemen in the draft....EVERY TIME?
So I've done a little research. Since 1995 the following corners have been taken after the 1st round (I know not all are "shutdown corners" but that is a hard term to define. So I just picked out the guys I thought were very good. Please click on the links to see the players' career stats and draft round):
Bobby Taylor
Donnie Abraham
Ronde Barber
Sam Madison
Al Harris
Samari Rolle
Patrick Surtain
Mike McKenzie
Dre' Bly
Ken Lucas
Asante Samuel
Rashean Mathis
So that's twelve guys since 1995 that have been very good corners for most of their career.
In that same time span here are the same criteria (very good corner) drafted in the 1st round:
Ty Law
Charles Woodson
Champ Bailey
Chris McAlister
Antoine Winfield
Nate Clements
Terrence Newman
Marcus Trufant
Nnamdi Asomugha
Chris Gamble
Darrelle Revis
Leon Hall
Joe Haden 
That's thirteen guys since 1995 that have been drafted in the first round and been very good most of their careers. (Twelve if I wasn't a homer and didn't throw Joe Haden in there). I will admit, the second list has better overall talent (Woodson, Bailey, Asomugha, Revis).
Now, let's look at how many very good defensive ends (I'm going to separate defensive ends and tackles because they are very different positions, I didn't include safeties in the corner discussion) have been taken after round one since 1995 (this list doesn't include players that would have been defensive ends but got drafted by a 3-4 team, i.e. DeMarcus Ware, LaMarr Woodley):
Jason Taylor
Leonard Little
Aaron Smith
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Aaron Schobel
Osi Umenyiora
Robert Mathis
Jared Allen
Trent Cole
Nine defensive end drafted after the second round turned out to be very good players. There's even one Hall of Famer in there (Jason Taylor).
Now the defensive ends that were drafted in the first round since 1995 that were very good:
Kevin Carter
Hugh Douglas
Simeon Rice
Jevon Kearse
Patrick Kerney
Shaun Ellis
John Abraham
Richard Seymour
Julius Peppers
Dwight Freeney
Mario Williams
Tamba Hali
So twelve. And out of those twelve Rice, Kearse, Abraham, Seymour, Peppers, Freeney, and Williams are all about on the same level as Revis, Bailey, Woodson, and Asomugha. And it is well known in the NFL that if you can get a elite pass rush you don't need elite corners to shutdown the other teams' receivers (i.e. the Steelers the past few years).
This got me to thinking, "Well yeah, you're better off taking a defensive end in the first round, but there are more defensive end busts in the first round than there are corners."
Since 1995 these are the 1st round bust at corner:
Craig Newsome
Tyrone Poole
Alex Molden
Tom Knight
Bryant Westbrook
Terry Fair
Fernando Bryant
Rashard Anderson
Jamar Fletcher
Willie Middlebrooks
Phillip Buchanon
Mike Rumph
Sammy Davis Jr.
Andre Woolfolk
Ahmad Carroll
Marlin Jackson
Fabian Washington
Pac Man Jones
Kelly Jennings
Tye Hill
Leodis McKelvin
Twenty-one cornerback busts since 1995. Compared to:
Jason Peter
Andre Wadsworth
Lamar King
Erik Flowers
Courtney Brown
Jamal Reynolds
Jerome McDougle
Michael Haynes
Kenechi Udeze
Erasmus James
Jarvis Moss
Adam Carriker
Jamaal Anderson
Gaines Adams
Vernon Gholston
Derrick Harvey
Lawrence Jackson
Aaron Maybin
Mike Mamula
Cedric Jones
Marcus Jones
Jon Harris
Twenty-two defensive end busts since 1995. Let's see...let me pull out the calculator. That's a difference of one. There has been one more busted defensive end than corner in the first round since 1995.
So in conclusion (I know I didn't do the defensive tackles, but I already took up way too much time and space and the results are similar to the defensive end), you should not take a shutdown cornerback EVERY TIME. In fact, you should probably take the elite pass rusher because there is an equal chance of finding a pretty good corner in the later rounds. And pairing that good corner with the elite pass rusher is a very good combo. We also know that is much harder to find an elite pass rusher in later rounds. So taking the corner first and the pass rusher second doesn't seem like a good idea because there are less pass rushers available after the first round. Furthermore, we know that cornerback is safer pick for this reason since 1995 there has been twenty-one busts at corner and twenty-two busts at defensive end.
Take the pass rusher.
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Rookie
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Quote:
Quote:
Give me shutdown corner over the best DL in any draft EVERY TIME.
Reading this I thought, "WHAT!?!?!"
Why would anyone think you would want the shutdown corner over the best D-Linemen in the draft....EVERY TIME?
So I've done a little research. Since 1995 the following corners have been taken after the 1st round (I know not all are "shutdown corners" but that is a hard term to define. So I just picked out the guys I thought were very good. Please click on the links to see the players' career stats and draft round):
Bobby Taylor
Donnie Abraham
Ronde Barber
Sam Madison
Al Harris
Samari Rolle
Patrick Surtain
Mike McKenzie
Dre' Bly
Ken Lucas
Asante Samuel
Rashean Mathis
So that's twelve guys since 1995 that have been very good corners for most of their career.
In that same time span here are the same criteria (very good corner) drafted in the 1st round:
Ty Law
Charles Woodson
Champ Bailey
Chris McAlister
Antoine Winfield
Nate Clements
Terrence Newman
Marcus Trufant
Nnamdi Asomugha
Chris Gamble
Darrelle Revis
Leon Hall
Joe Haden
That's thirteen guys since 1995 that have been drafted in the first round and been very good most of their careers. (Twelve if I wasn't a homer and didn't throw Joe Haden in there). I will admit, the second list has better overall talent (Woodson, Bailey, Asomugha, Revis).
Now, let's look at how many very good defensive ends (I'm going to separate defensive ends and tackles because they are very different positions, I didn't include safeties in the corner discussion) have been taken after round one since 1995 (this list doesn't include players that would have been defensive ends but got drafted by a 3-4 team, i.e. DeMarcus Ware, LaMarr Woodley):
Jason Taylor
Leonard Little
Aaron Smith
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila
Aaron Schobel
Osi Umenyiora
Robert Mathis
Jared Allen
Trent Cole
Nine defensive end drafted after the second round turned out to be very good players. There's even one Hall of Famer in there (Jason Taylor).
Now the defensive ends that were drafted in the first round since 1995 that were very good:
Kevin Carter
Hugh Douglas
Simeon Rice
Jevon Kearse
Patrick Kerney
Shaun Ellis
John Abraham
Richard Seymour
Julius Peppers
Dwight Freeney
Mario Williams
Tamba Hali
So twelve. And out of those twelve Rice, Kearse, Abraham, Seymour, Peppers, Freeney, and Williams are all about on the same level as Revis, Bailey, Woodson, and Asomugha. And it is well known in the NFL that if you can get a elite pass rush you don't need elite corners to shutdown the other teams' receivers (i.e. the Steelers the past few years).
This got me to thinking, "Well yeah, you're better off taking a defensive end in the first round, but there are more defensive end busts in the first round than there are corners."
Since 1995 these are the 1st round bust at corner:
Craig Newsome
Tyrone Poole
Alex Molden
Tom Knight
Bryant Westbrook
Terry Fair
Fernando Bryant
Rashard Anderson
Jamar Fletcher
Willie Middlebrooks
Phillip Buchanon
Mike Rumph
Sammy Davis Jr.
Andre Woolfolk
Ahmad Carroll
Marlin Jackson
Fabian Washington
Pac Man Jones
Kelly Jennings
Tye Hill
Leodis McKelvin
Twenty-one cornerback busts since 1995. Compared to:
Jason Peter
Andre Wadsworth
Lamar King
Erik Flowers
Courtney Brown
Jamal Reynolds
Jerome McDougle
Michael Haynes
Kenechi Udeze
Erasmus James
Jarvis Moss
Adam Carriker
Jamaal Anderson
Gaines Adams
Vernon Gholston
Derrick Harvey
Lawrence Jackson
Aaron Maybin
Mike Mamula
Cedric Jones
Marcus Jones
Jon Harris
Twenty-two defensive end busts since 1995. Let's see...let me pull out the calculator. That's a difference of one. There has been one more busted defensive end than corner in the first round since 1995.
So in conclusion (I know I didn't do the defensive tackles, but I already took up way too much time and space and the results are similar to the defensive end), you should not take a shutdown cornerback EVERY TIME. In fact, you should probably take the elite pass rusher because there is an equal chance of finding a pretty good corner in the later rounds. And pairing that good corner with the elite pass rusher is a very good combo. We also know that is much harder to find an elite pass rusher in later rounds. So taking the corner first and the pass rusher second doesn't seem like a good idea because there are less pass rushers available after the first round. Furthermore, we know that cornerback is safer pick for this reason since 1995 there has been twenty-one busts at corner and twenty-two busts at defensive end.
Take the pass rusher.
Thanks for letting us know the draft can be risky.
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Thanks for the all-quote.
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Quote:
Thanks for letting us know the draft can be risky.
Among other things.
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It also comes back to scheme, if you want to take a look at all the factors. What percentage of the field has 2 corners compared to 3 corners. What percentage of the field do you turn your D-Ends loose versus having them play gap control or drop as anchors into coverage? What percent do you have your corners play man on versus playing zones?
The style of defense you want to play determines the importance of the players selected.
Also, it's difficult to tell specifically from the list above, but I don't know how many of those D-Ends can be considered 'busts' if they were moved from D-End to OLB in a 3-4 scheme.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Yes. Every time.
Let's look at just last years draft.
The DL that were taken in the first round that were available when Joe Haden was available.
DE - Tyson Alualu (drafted 10th to JAX)
DE - Brandon Graham (drafted 13th to PHI)
DE - Jason Pierre-Paul (drafted 15th to NYG)
DE - Derrick Morgan (drafted 16th to TEN)
DT - Dan Williams (drafted 26th to ARI)
DT - Jared Odrick (drafted 28th to MIA)
DE - Jerry Hughes (drafted 31st to IND)
Since we're talking about someone like Peterson compared to the DL that might be available, I think it's a fair comparison. Now, tell me which of those DL you would have selected instead of Joe Haden?
I'm sorry, I'll close the door on your argument already.
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using one example in a draft that had 2 elite DL and not much else is your way of "closing the door"?
i'm sorry, i'll take a composite history that was done above over your 1 example from a DL-weak draft.
as for DL or Peterson. I'm think Dareus, Bowers, and Peterson are the elite players in this draft. if we have to choose between 2 of them, then I really don't care which we pick.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Yes. Every time.
Let's look at just last years draft.
The DL that were taken in the first round that were available when Joe Haden was available.
DE - Tyson Alualu (drafted 10th to JAX)
DE - Brandon Graham (drafted 13th to PHI)
DE - Jason Pierre-Paul (drafted 15th to NYG)
DE - Derrick Morgan (drafted 16th to TEN)
DT - Dan Williams (drafted 26th to ARI)
DT - Jared Odrick (drafted 28th to MIA)
DE - Jerry Hughes (drafted 31st to IND)
Since we're talking about someone like Peterson compared to the DL that might be available, I think it's a fair comparison. Now, tell me which of those DL you would have selected instead of Joe Haden?
I'm sorry, I'll close the door on your argument already.
The best of those guys would be a late first/early second in this draft.
This year's draft is bunk except for D-Line prospects...and there's a ridiculous number of them, I would have no problem in moving down considerably in the first round and picking up an extra first next year.
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No. Not every time.
Let's take a look at just last year's draft.
The DL that were taken in the first round when Tye Hill was taken.
DE - Tamba Hali (drafted 20th to KC)
DE - Manny Lawson (drafted 22nd to SF)
DE - Mathias Kiwanuka (drafted 32nd to NYG)
Since we're talking about someone like Peterson compared to the DL that might be available, I think it's a fair comparison. Now, tell me which of those DL you would have selected instead of Tye Hill? (The answer is all of them).
I'm sorry, I'll close the door on your argument already. (Anyone can cherry pick a draft to help their argument.)
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Yes. A shutdown corner is much rarer than a productive DL.
I'll continue to close the door on the case for a DL at #6.
I respect your view, but I think your wrong. We'll just have to agree to disagree about it.
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Are you telling me that Tye Hill was a shutdown corner? Really? Is that what you're saying? 
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Legend
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No I'm saying that not every draft is like last year. And there were good to useful defensive linemen taken after him.
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Quote:
Yes. A shutdown corner is much rarer than a productive DL.
Right. But "DL" includes two different positions. Defensive end and defensive tackle are two very different positions. So grouping them together is like grouping together cornerback and safety.
When you look at it, an equivalent to a shutdown corner at the defensive end position (Revis/Peppers, Bailey/Freeney etc.) is equally as "rarer". And how do you know what a player will be in the NFL? There is no such thing as a for sure thing in the draft. No one knows if anyone will be a shutdown corner.
Also, the same could be said about defensive tackles (Suh/Asomugha).
When you are talking about elite talent it is very hard to find no matter what.
Here's the difference. If you have an elite pass rush it takes pressure off the guys who are covering (the corners and safeties).
Quote:
I'll continue to close the door on the case for a DL at #6.
That makes no sense at all. I think you mean, "I'll continue to close the door on the case for a DL at #6...if Peterson is gone."
I just want to make things clear; I think Peterson is a great prospect. I think he is one of the very top prospects in the upcoming draft. I just think that your argument of taking the corner every time is a very bad one. Especially when any player you take in the draft is an unknown commodity.
Taking a corner when you have other positions that need help more and have equal available talent is not a smart thing to do. With that said, Peterson might be better than every player in this draft besides one or two. So there might not be equal talent at other positions of need. If so, take the best guy.
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And there will be good an productive DL taken after Peterson and Prince. I'd still take either of them before I'd select DL.
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Quote:
Right. But "DL" includes two different positions. Defensive end and defensive tackle are two very different positions. So grouping them together is like grouping together cornerback and safety.
Choose which one you want to compare them to. Choose any position on the entire defense that is more crucial to a defense's success than a shutdown corner? Any LB? Any DL? A safety?
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That makes no sense at all. I think you mean, "I'll continue to close the door on the case for a DL at #6...if Peterson is gone."
I'd be ecstatic if Peterson is gone and the Browns decide to take Prince Amukamara over any DL.
It's probably true that my viewpoint won't win out in the Browns FO though. I suspect that they think that drafting some DL for the 4-3 will be necessary in the 1st round but I might be pleasantly surprised on April 28th.
If I'm drafting at #6 and a highly-prized shutdown corner is there (and unless I have at least two of them on my team), I don't even consider a DL over that shutdown corner. I would seriously consider taking a third shutdown corner before I take a DL unless I have Reggie White's clone sitting there and I have those two shutdown corners already on my roster.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Legend
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Quote:
I'd be ecstatic if Peterson is gone and the Browns decide to take Prince Amukamara over any DL.
In this upcoming draft it is probably true that taking the corner is the right thing to do. Both Peterson and Amukamara are higly rated players with probably only one defensive linemen rated above them (Dareus).
But I'm talking overall value. You say you would take a shut down corner. But there is no way in knowing that player is a shutdown corner. Just like there is no way in knowing a defensive end will be an elite pass rusher. Which means you should take the higher rated player.
If Amukamara and Dareus are both on the board, who do you take?
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Quote:
If you take away an opponent's ability to pass the ball, you make the job of the DL and LBs easy.
You might see a game where someone runs 50 times against us if we dont get some D line help. Another elite corner would be nice, but a luxury we cant afford imo. We need to see if Wright can come back into form this year.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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Do these "mock drafts" get archived somewhere? People always "pimp" this player, or trash this player, but what's the point?
You really can't find out if a player pans out for a few years. Unless these mock drafts get archived, it's almost useless debating. Because you won't know for years, and by then, do people even remember who they picked?
Ehhhhh
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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I guess futile is the word I'm looking for.
President - Fort Collins Browns Backers
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A shutdown corner is great to have but there are so many shutdown corners drafted that can't shutdown anybody in the NFL. A great defensive lineman is also wonderful to have but too many of these guys turn out to be "Big Money". If you can get a superstar player you take him. You don't pick a corner over a lineman or vice versa just because of position. You cannot really compare the positions you need to compare the individual players. If you take a player who turns out to be a true stud (not a wannabe) then he will have a tremendous impact on your team regardless of whether he is a shutdown corner (Revis), a dlineman (Freeney) a safety (Palamalou, Reed), a linebacker (Matthews) etc etc. But if you pick a wannbe regardless of position, you wasted the pick. I close the door o the argument 
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
If Amukamara and Dareus are both on the board, who do you take?
I think I've made it abundantly clear who I would select in that instance. Amukamara without hesitation.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Hall of Famer
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If the opponent is running the ball 50 times, I'm tremendously happy if I have Haden and either Peterson or Amukamara as my corners with T.J. Ward back there too. That means my corners are doing the job that they've been given and the opponent has reverted to the run because they have no chance of passing the ball.
I've got my DL and LBs keying on the opponents backfield. If any player back there has the ball, I'm closing on them like a sledgehammer. I might even cheat a bit with Ward coming up to assist on the run stopping.
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Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
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Maybe St. Clair could try D-Tackle? If he gets half as much qb pressure on defense as he allowed on offense ... we wouldn't need any dline in this draft ... 
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
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Quote:
Quote:
If Amukamara and Dareus are both on the board, who do you take?
I think I've made it abundantly clear who I would select in that instance. Amukamara without hesitation.
Taking Amukamara, who is a very good prospect, over Dareus, who is either the top player or second best player (according to most people), is quite ridiculous. And that's in any situation, not considering a team's needs. Then you take into account the needs of this current Browns team and it makes it even more ridiculous.
Yes, you have made yourself abundantly clear. But I think most would agree that you are dead wrong on this one.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
Maybe St. Clair could try D-Tackle? If he gets half as much qb pressure on defense as he allowed on offense ... we wouldn't need any dline in this draft ...
Now that is a rib-splitter!
But, in seriousness, we do need some DL. We won't need to get any in the first round.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,370 |
Quote:
Taking Amukamara, who is a very good prospect, over Dareus, who is either the top player or second best player (according to most people), is quite ridiculous.
If he is the best or 2nd best player in the draft with the needs of those above us, he won't be there. Frankly, I don't think he will, but even if he was, I'd take the CB over him.
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And that's in any situation, not considering a team's needs. Then you take into account the needs of this current Browns team and it makes it even more ridiculous.
And you think that the team needs a DL more than a corner who can shutdown the opposing receivers. Okay, I get it. I hope that he can cover WRs too, because he's going to need that ability.
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Yes, you have made yourself abundantly clear. But I think most would agree that you are dead wrong on this one.
Of the people that I've asked the opinion of on this matter (two fans of the game brothers of mine), they both agree with me. I know what the majority of fans on this website think. I happen to disagree with them.
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Legend
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Legend
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Thought he was quite a run stopper on OFFENSE. Sure did a lot for the opponent's pass rush. Not sure he could cover that much ground regularly; also not my choice for goalline stand defense. Two-legged sieve. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
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He was a Pro Bowl DL.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
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Here's a story (stories) about how the Panthers are going to take Cam Newton #1. That would be great for us. 1. Panthers - Newton 2. Broncos - Dareus 3. Bills - Peterson 4. Bengals - Gabbert 5. Cardinals - Miller 6. Browns - Green/Quinn/Amukamara/Jones/Fairley
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