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Since it is only about benefits for all state employees there is shared sacrifice. Just because you are repeating lies doesn't make them true. Get a clue.
#gmstrong
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OK, so let's say that Kasich works for free, and so do his Lt Governor and cabinet. The Justices also work for free, because they are feeling generous. Ohio has an $8 billion deficit ..... Those salaries total less than $2 million ....... that only leaves $7,998,000,000 to go. You can while and complain about "shared sacrifice" and all of the other crap you throw around, but the bottom line is that your "shared sacrifice" doesn't balance the budget. It doesn't even get remotely close. It's like trying to put out a 4 alarm fire with a half full water pistol. It probably doesn't hurt matters any .... but in the end, it's an exercise in futility as much larger measures are necessary to avoid disaster. Once more you trip over a stack of hundred dollar bills chasing after a penny. Most Democrats seem to share this mindset. It's no wonder that Democrats tend to drive states into fiscal disaster. Also .... do you realize that you are complaining because the Governor of Ohio makes less than $1200 more than the "average" Governor? Wow.  Ohio's Governor is 14th highest paid, and Ohio has the 7th largest population. Hmm. Also, where were you when Strickland was driving us further into the ditch, and begging for federal funds? I must have missed your thread demanding that he cut his salary. Could you point it out to me please? Of course you won't ... and can't. Yep ... good old Democrat mindset of tripping over stacks and stacks of hundred dollar bills because someone else might have an extra penny. It's ludicrous, ridiculous, and preposterous ...... and a perfect example of the vast majority of your arguments. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Balancing state budgets on the backs of middle class workers who are far from the highest paid state workers in Ohio, makes absolutely no sense.
SHARED SACRIFICE by all state workers in Ohio makes "perfect sense".
Gov. Kasich is not willing to sacrifice anything to help with Ohio's budget deficit, while asking working class Ohioans to bear all the burden...
mac, I'm not opposed to shared sacrifice but look at the facts.. you have been comparing a teachers salary to other professions which require similar degree and similar credentials and based on what we have seen... once salary, benefits, work hours, etc are all taken into consideration, I don't believe teachers are that bad off compared to their peers in other professions.
Now, your governor is basically the CEO of the state.. the state has approximately a $55 billion budget... now, go find me a private sector CEO of a company with a $55 billion annual budget that makes $140,000 a year... In case you are having trouble wrapping your head around that.. Microsoft in 2007 had about $50 billion in revenue.. think the CEO of Microsoft makes $140K a year? Apple makes about $50 billion a year.. think Steve Jobs makes $140K?
So if you want to compare state employees to their private sector counterparts and complain that not everybody is doing their part, then have at it, tell me again why the governor should take a pay cut?
yebat' Putin
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Ohio's Elected Officials' Salaries
State Government Employee Salaries
Office.....................'10 Salary.....Current Official
Governor...................$144,269.....John Kasich
Lt Governor...............$142,501.....MaryTaylor
Sec of State..............$109,554....Jon Husted
Att General...............$109,554.....Mike DeWine
Treasurer..................$109,554.....Josh Mandel
The salary of Ohio's governor ranks 14th among U.S. governors' salaries. The average salary earned by U.S. governors is $128,735. The median salary earned by U.S. governors is $129,962.
Legislators' Salary
Ohio state legislators receive a salary of $60,584 per year. Legislators do not receive a per diem.
Ohio Judicial Salaries
Position.................'10 Salary..........Current Justice
Chief Justice..........$150,850...........Maureen O'Connor
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Paul Pfeifer
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Evelyn Stratton
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Yvette McGee Brown
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Terrence O'Donnell
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Judith Ann Lanzinger
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Robert Cupp
The salary of Ohio's chief justice ranks 28th among U.S. chief justices' salaries. The average salary earned by U.S. chief justices is $155,230. The median salary earned by U.S. chief justices is $151,284.
The salary of Ohio's associate justices ranks 31st among U.S. associate justices' salaries. The average salary earned by U.S. associate justices is $151,142. The median salary earned by U.S. associate justices is $145,984.
web page
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Balancing state budgets on the backs of middle class workers who are far from the highest paid state workers in Ohio, makes absolutely no sense.
SHARED SACRIFICE by all state workers in Ohio makes "perfect sense".
Gov. Kasich is not willing to sacrifice anything to help with Ohio's budget deficit, while asking working class Ohioans to bear all the burden...
...This approach is similar to a "DICTATOR" or a "KING" taking whatever he wants from the people, forcing them to support the "KING KASICH" and rich GOP/TeaParty life style.
I think Americans and especially voters in the Northern states are realizing they made a huge mistake supporting the Tea Party/GOP.
DICTATORS AND KINGS never survive...they all end up losing when the people as a whole revolt against them.
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Since it is only about benefits for all state employees there is shared sacrifice. Just because you are repeating lies doesn't make them true. Get a clue.
pd...your "FOX NEWS LIES" colors are showing again...
In this case, Kasich's bill targets only state employees who are members of "unions"...
Ohio citizens pay the wages and pay for the benefits of all state workers, from the highest paid, Kasich among them, to the lowest paid, union and non-union.
Yet Kasich excludes himself and all elected and appointed officials who are not union members, even though they are the highest paid state workers in Ohio...see below..
Ohio's Elected Officials' Salaries
State Government Employee Salaries
Office.....................'10 Salary.....Current Official
Governor...................$144,269.....John Kasich
Lt Governor...............$142,501.....MaryTaylor
Sec of State..............$109,554....Jon Husted
Att General...............$109,554.....Mike DeWine
Treasurer..................$109,554.....Josh Mandel
Ohio Judicial Salaries
Position.................'10 Salary..........Current Justice
Chief Justice..........$150,850...........Maureen O'Connor
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Paul Pfeifer
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Evelyn Stratton
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Yvette McGee Brown
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Terrence O'Donnell
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Judith Ann Lanzinger
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Robert Cupp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kasich is attempting to fix Ohio's budget deficit by targeting only one group of Ohio workers...union..
...while non-union, elected and appointed workers, many making several times the wages and benefits of some union workers...SACRIFICE NOTHING.
SHARED SACRIFICE by every state worker in Ohio, from our high priced Gov. Kasich ($144,269) down to the lowest paid state worker, union and non-union..all should have pay and benefits reduced the same percentage..the percentage needed to fix Ohio's budget crisis.
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
Home of the Free, Because of the Brave...
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Actually it does cover everyone.I even included a link. I think your Huffington Post education is rotting tour brain.
#gmstrong
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Chief Justice..........$150,850...........Maureen O'Connor
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Paul Pfeifer
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Evelyn Stratton
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Yvette McGee Brown
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Terrence O'Donnell
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Judith Ann Lanzinger
Ass Justice...........$141,600............Robert Cupp
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Kasich is attempting to fix Ohio's budget deficit by targeting only one group of Ohio workers...union..
...while non-union, elected and appointed workers, many making several times the wages and benefits of some union workers...SACRIFICE NOTHING.
Just curious but how does one get to be an Ass Justice? I think you would be perfect for that position.
Can you please address my previous point about how much the governor makes relative to other CEOs? Then you can address how much the chief justice makes compared to successful private sector attorneys... then you can remind me again why these people should take a pay cut? These people already make a small fraction of what their private sector counterparts make... while teachers make at or better than what their private sector counterparts make...
yebat' Putin
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I am quite aware that the tax cuts are federal and teachers are state employees. My point is that both the tax cuts and the teachers center around the debate that spending is out of control and we must balance our budget (be it state or federal). Quote:
State workers's wages and benefits come out of our pockets.
Yes, and then state workers use that money to buy homes, food, clothes in the same state they work in. It's not like they're sitting on this money tax free and hoarding it. They're taxpaying members of our society.
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In my county, the average teacher salary is $77,862, increased by 2% last year. The disctrict with the lowest is at $70,998.
But you live in California, not Ohio. As PDawg already pointed out, in some counties here, the average teacher pay is nearly half that.
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Hardly any sense replying to him. Look at his juvenile abbreviation for the assistant supreme court justices. Would it really have taken long to abbreviate "assistant" properly, as in "asst."? In my opinion, that shows a lot about him and his disdain for anyone that makes more than he does. Of course, his posting shows a lot about him as well. 
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Daily show on wisconsin strike - he makes some interesting points (there are two videos, the second part is linked from the first):
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-march-3-2011/crisis-in-the-dairyland---for-richer-and-poorer
~Lyuokdea
Watched this as well; you can tell it's hitting a nerve with Stewart as his mother is a former teacher. He made an excellent point by saying (this is from memory so the quote is off) "If you know a teacher that only works until 3pm and only works 9 months out of the year, then you know a crappy teacher". Most teachers I had (the school I went to is in Ohio and is considered a "District of Excellence") was filled with very caring teachers that stayed well after school and assisted students.
I don't think it's a coincidence that my teachers were very caring and the success of the school district. Just because there are bad teachers (much like bad engineers, bad bankers, bad [fill in any job on Earth]) doesn't mean that the entire profession is that way.
![[Linked Image from i190.photobucket.com]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z33/booger52/phpGGRdhwAM.jpg)
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The problem is that this debate has been taken in all sorts of directions such as, do you think teachers work hard and do you think teachers are good or bad when THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is, should teachers be able to collectively bargain for their benefits when the people who pay their salaries does not get to be part of the negotiation and should they be made to contribute a little more toward those benefits in a way that would bring their contribution in line with others..
Stewart, like almost everybody else on the teachers side, is trying to make this an emotional issue about liking or not liking teachers, which is utter crap. They are trying to make it out to look like teachers are going to get this massive pay cut and lose all of their benefits which is again, utter crap.
yebat' Putin
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But Americans don't want the truth. That's why we have scripted reality shows. 
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Hardly any sense replying to him. Look at his juvenile abbreviation for the assistant supreme court justices. Would it really have taken long to abbreviate "assistant" properly, as in "asst."?
In my opinion, that shows a lot about him and his disdain for anyone that makes more than he does.
Of course, his posting shows a lot about him as well.
I only reply to him because I like to see him duck every question when he is wrong. The whole shared sacrifice mantra for example. neither state is asking employees to take pay cuts. Both states are attacking benefits. The benefits are for all state employees but he won't say so. People might take him a little more serious if he would admit when he is wrong.
#gmstrong
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Stewart, like almost everybody else on the teachers side, is trying to make this an emotional issue about liking or not liking teachers, which is utter crap
I disagree; the people who are on the opposing side keep claiming that teachers are part-time employees and are essentially demeaning them. Turn on the news and that's what the news is talking about. So it's not just those who support the teachers.
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The issue is, should teachers be able to collectively bargain for their benefits when the people who pay their salaries does not get to be part of the negotiation and should they be made to contribute a little more toward those benefits in a way that would bring their contribution in line with others
I agree that this is what the debate should be, but that's not the way it's being presented. I disagree that the taxpayers don't get to be part of the negotiation. While you and I personally don't get to negotiate, we elect people who either do it for us or appoint people to do it for us.
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I disagree; the people who are on the opposing side keep claiming that teachers are part-time employees and are essentially demeaning them. Turn on the news and that's what the news is talking about. So it's not just those who support the teachers.
I have seen very little demeaning of teachers.. I have seen the argument of how much they work used to compare with how much they are paid... there is obviously differences of opinion on this.. but I haven't seen it rise to the level of demeaning anybody...
Before you go find a video of somebody doing something stupid, can I just conceded that it probably has happened.. but of the conservatives that I have seen discuss it, the vast majority have been pretty supportive of what teachers do.
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I disagree that the taxpayers don't get to be part of the negotiation. While you and I personally don't get to negotiate, we elect people who either do it for us or appoint people to do it for us.
Did you get to vote for your boss? When you go in to negotiate a pay raise with your boss do you think he might negotiate differently if you were going to contribue millions when he ran to keep his job and if you could influence how thousands of people voted when it came time for him to keep his job? Well that is the situation we have.. the unions contribute hundreds of millions to campaigns and influence the votes of tens of thousands of people... so you think most governors can be truely objective when negotiating with a union? How do you think they got these sweetheart deals to begin with? Governors rarely have the stones to tell them NO.
yebat' Putin
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I have seen very little demeaning of teachers.. I have seen the argument of how much they work used to compare with how much they are paid... there is obviously differences of opinion on this.. but I haven't seen it rise to the level of demeaning anybody...
Before you go find a video of somebody doing something stupid, can I just conceded that it probably has happened.. but of the conservatives that I have seen discuss it, the vast majority have been pretty supportive of what teachers do.
Fair enough, but just like in most cases the reasonable people are not the ones getting air time (but that's a debate for another time).
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Did you get to vote for your boss? When you go in to negotiate a pay raise with your boss do you think he might negotiate differently if you were going to contribue millions when he ran to keep his job and if you could influence how thousands of people voted when it came time for him to keep his job? Well that is the situation we have.. the unions contribute hundreds of millions to campaigns and influence the votes of tens of thousands of people... so you think most governors can be truely objective when negotiating with a union? How do you think they got these sweetheart deals to begin with? Governors rarely have the stones to tell them NO.
I think that the union contributions are canceled out by anti-union contributions. They, just like corporations, you, I, or anyone else has a right to petition the government and lobbying is perfectly legal. And it seems that governors aren't feeling the pressure of unions as 12 States have introduced anti-union legislation this year alone.
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I think that the union contributions are canceled out by anti-union contributions. They, just like corporations, you, I, or anyone else has a right to petition the government and lobbying is perfectly legal. And it seems that governors aren't feeling the pressure of unions as 12 States have introduced anti-union legislation this year alone.
Corporations have no real reason to put up a huge fight against teacher benefits ... not to the same level that unions would have to fight for them anyway. If a corporate "funded" politcian is elected to office, fighting union beneifts for teachers is going to be way, way down on the priority list. If a union "funded" politician is elected to office, one of their top priorities will be getting their unions a sweethart deal.
The only reason why 12 states are fighting current union deals now, is because the economy is in the tank, tax revenues are way down, and governments are starting to realize that, "woah, these union benefits aren't exactly sustainable".
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Where have I heard of this tactic before?..Oh yeah I remember
"We must close union offices,confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison.We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike."
~Adolf Hitler May 2, 1933
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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And the winner of the Godwin Award goes to ... 
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Where have I heard of this tactic before?..Oh yeah I remember
"We must close union offices,confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison.We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike."
~Adolf Hitler May 2, 1933
Then, he formed one big national union.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I love winning awards..Usually held by a conservative preaching about Socialism..but.. The idea that workers controlled the means of production in Nazi Germany is a bitter joke. It was actually a combination of aristocracy and capitalism. Technically, private businessmen owned and controlled the means of production. The Nazi "Charter of Labor" gave employers complete power over their workers. It established the employer as the "leader of the enterprise," and read: "The leader of the enterprise makes the decisions for the employees and laborers in all matters concerning the enterprise." The employer, however, was subject to the frequent orders of the ruling Nazi elite. After the Nazis took power in 1933, they quickly established a highly controlled war economy under the direction of Dr. Hjalmar Schacht. Prior to the Nazi seizure of power in 1933, worker protests had spread all across Germany in response to the Great Depression. During his drive to power, Hitler exploited this social unrest by promising workers to strengthen their labor unions and increase their standard of living. But these were empty promises; privately, he was reassuring wealthy German businessmen that he would crack down on labor once he achieved power. The Nazis abolished trade unions, collective bargaining and the right to strike. An organization called the "Labor Front" replaced the old trade unions, but it was an instrument of the Nazi party and did not represent workers. According to the law that created it, "Its task is to see that every individual should be able... to perform the maximum of work." Workers would indeed greatly boost their productivity under Nazi rule but they also became exploited. Between 1932 and 1936, workers wages fell, from 20.4 to 19.5 cents an hour for skilled labor, and from 16.1 to 13 cents an hour for unskilled labor. It's true that the Nazis tried to develop an ideology of socialism -- one based on Christianity, in fact. Part of their party platform was the idea that the public need should be put before private greed, and this principle was part of the statement of how they were a Christian political party: "We demand freedom for all religious confessions in the state, insofar as they do not endanger its existence or conflict with the customs and moral sentiments of the Germanic race. The party as such represents the standpoint of a positive Christianity, without owing itself to a particular confession. It fights the spirit of Jewish materialism within us and without us, and is convinced that a lasting recovery of our Volk can only take place from within, on the basis of the principle: public need comes before private greed." In reality, though, Nazi policies did not reflect anything that looks like socialism. How can anyone describe a government that abolishes the right to strike or engage in collective bargaining as "socialist"? Mere opposition to "Jewish materialism" or "Jewish capitalism" doesn't make one a socialist. Nathan Newman explains a recent example of how unionization is suppressed in America: unions picketing a company aren't allowed to ask other unions to support them and refuse to work as well: Most progressives don't fully understand that if a union asks other workers to help them during a strike, they have often broken the law. That act of speech-- asking for help -- is an illegal act. You hear people prattle on about American Exceptionalism-- that US workers are individualists and company-oriented, which is why we don't have broader labor unity or general strikes as you often see in European countries. The answer is far more prosaic. In the US, the First Amendment has been declared null and void at the workplace door and any attempt to ask for labor unity is a crime. It's really hard to have broad-based unity when you can't ask for it without finding yourself in court. American conservatives are concerned that this nation not come too close to the "socialism" of Nazi Germany, but it is the laws which work against collective bargaining and union activity which cause America to begin to resemble Nazi Germany, not any so-called socialist policies of this or that leftist group. Socialism might be an exceedingly bad way to organize an economy, but criticizing the Nazis is not the way to make this point. Godwin Award
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Where have I heard of this tactic before?..Oh yeah I remember
"We must close union offices,confiscate their money and put their leaders in prison.We must reduce workers salaries and take away their right to strike."
~Adolf Hitler May 2, 1933
Was he talking about public worker unions? And which of those are we doing now exactly?
yebat' Putin
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It doesn't matter! We're doing something that's vaguely similar! Therefore we're turning into Nazi Germany!
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I disagree; the people who are on the opposing side keep claiming that teachers are part-time employees and are essentially demeaning them. Turn on the news and that's what the news is talking about. So it's not just those who support the teachers.
I myself haven't heard anyone demeaning teachers, or the job they do. I haven't heard anyone say "teachers are part time".
What I HAVE heard is people saying teachers teach for roughly 9 months a year, which is in fact true. And they get paid well for that - not overpaid, but probably not under paid either. (and yes, the starting wages aren't great - but if someone goes into teaching not knowing roughly what you'll make starting out, I don't want them teaching MY kids).
I have seen people say the benefits teachers get at retirement are quite nice - too nice actually. And that is a fact as well.
The underlying issue is, when people state facts, the teacher supporters get upset - almost like they are embarrassed by it - so they deflect. Wasn't it this thread that someone said their spouse works 60 to 80 hours per week, every week? 80 hours a week, seriously? That would be 11 1/2 hours a day, seven days a week. Sorry, that doesn't happen. And if it does, it is the sign of a poor to terrible teacher, or someone that isn't focused.
I take my daughter to school every morning. Drop her off at 8 a.m. ,give or take a few minutes. I routinely watch teachers walking in at that time - so the whole "teachers get to school at 7 and don't leave til 5" thing is crap. (oh, Archbold Area Schools have been rated excellent by the state for the last, 7, 10 years?)
Also, being forgotten in some discussions is the fact that almost every teacher has, at minimum, 1 free period per day. That should be used for grading papers, etc. (many have 2 free periods).
If a teacher needs to spend hours each night grading papers, the teacher gives too much homework. Period. (interesting story about a friend of mine - teacher friend. Parents griped about the amount of homework she was giving kids - basically about 2 hours per night - yes, PER NIGHT. She didn't understand all the griping. Until her daughter was in school and got about 45 minutes of homework a night. Which she needed to sit down and help her daughter with. Lo and behold, she doesn't give near as much homework anymore. Imagine that.) See, what is also forgotten when talking about "how many hours teachers work that we don't know about....) is the "how many hours the parents spend helping their kids.
I'm not anti teacher. I have many, many friends that are teachers. Teachers are important. This whole "overworked and underpaid" thing is bull. Sure, they want to make more. Who doesn't? Who wouldn't want a job at 22 that required work for 30 years, and then full pension plus benefits for life? (bene's until you reach medicare age, pension forever).
I hear how teachers don't get social security (at least in Ohio). Who would want social security when you have the pension they have?
My mother retired from teaching a few years ago. Just last July we had this conversation. The most she got paid in a year was $50,000. Here, in Fulton county, Ohio. Her pension? $48,000 per year - for as long as she lives. Plus, the health bene's as well, until she reached the age she qualified for full medicare. She herself said that's crazy.
Not too shabby, eh? She taught 37 years. Until I was old enough to drive, I rode to school with her every day - so she wasn't getting to school "early". Until I was in sports, she took me home every day - so she wasn't "working late". There were sometimes she'd spend an hour in the evening grading papers - not often though.
Oh, she had a bachelors degree, a masters degree, and was only about 2 courses short of a Doctorate when she retired. (I understand that perhaps someone today that wants to teach for 37 years would have to get the Doctorate - she didn't have to though).
People are making this out to be a "us vs. them" thing, when in reality it's a "the state is broke, the tax payers are broke, the few taxpayers there are anymore" kind of thing. States need to run a balanced budget. Having teachers pay more for retirement will NOT balance the budget - but it's a step. Many other steps need to be taken as well.
I'm sure I have more to say, but this will suffice for now.
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I generally agree with what you wrote.
One note on the hours worked though. If the teacher was also a coach, then the 60-80hr per week claim could easily be legit. Good teachers tend to get to school before their students and leave after them. If a school went from 8-4 with 2 hours of practice afterwards, then a teacher+coach may very well be working 7am-7pm most weekdays (5x12=60). Add in weekend games, tournaments and 80hours would happen some weeks as well.
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I disagree; the people who are on the opposing side keep claiming that teachers are part-time employees and are essentially demeaning them. Turn on the news and that's what the news is talking about. So it's not just those who support the teachers.
"I wish I could work 9months out of the year and make that kind of money!" This exact quote I have heard more than once. I find this maddening. First, if the want to work this way they should have been a teacher. Secondly, it really has nothing to do with the argument. The issue is about workers rights and not pay.
I do not think the Ohio bill is all bad. For instance I love the no strike rule of teachers. Only bad things can happen when you have teachers on picket lines. I just think negatives out weigh the positives.
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Quote:
I generally agree with what you wrote.
One note on the hours worked though. If the teacher was also a coach, then the 60-80hr per week claim could easily be legit. Good teachers tend to get to school before their students and leave after them. If a school went from 8-4 with 2 hours of practice afterwards, then a teacher+coach may very well be working 7am-7pm most weekdays (5x12=60). Add in weekend games, tournaments and 80hours would happen some weeks as well.
All I'll say is our school, and schools around here, go from (this is our school - the others are similar) class starts at 8:20, school is out at 2:50 to 3:00. Teachers have a free period for lunch (no biggy - almost every job gives that), they also have at least 1 free period per day.
And, coaches get paid. At least around here. Not much - for our head football coach it's just under $2500 per year. But, coaching is not teaching - at least as it relates to this discussion.
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the coaching + teaching gets wrapped up together in their labor agreements, so I would argue that it does factor in this discussion. especially since teachers/coaches do so at such a reduced rate.
#gmstrong
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they also have at least 1 free period per day.
It's actually called a planning period. Teachers do not have it off, they just do not have a class. Frequently they spend at least part of it with students who need to spend extra time with them. Teachers also make themselves available before or after school when asked.
#gmstrong
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I generally agree with what you wrote.
One note on the hours worked though. If the teacher was also a coach, then the 60-80hr per week claim could easily be legit. Good teachers tend to get to school before their students and leave after them. If a school went from 8-4 with 2 hours of practice afterwards, then a teacher+coach may very well be working 7am-7pm most weekdays (5x12=60). Add in weekend games, tournaments and 80hours would happen some weeks as well.
I understand this but coaching is not a requirement of teaching..... It is something you do because you love it.... if you don't love it, don't do it.
yebat' Putin
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the coaching + teaching gets wrapped up together in their labor agreements, so I would argue that it does factor in this discussion. especially since teachers/coaches do so at such a reduced rate.
The thing is coaching is not mandatory. Also in most districts the coaches make the same whether the teach in the district or not. it is usually a percentage of the starting wage of the district. Also not all sports are equal. Typically football and basketball coaches make more.
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you and DC bring up fair points. it is not required (probably a good differentiating thing to have in a down economy, but not required).
I was showing how the 60-80hr work weeks could easily be achieved if coaching was part of it.
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the coaching + teaching gets wrapped up together in their labor agreements, so I would argue that it does factor in this discussion. especially since teachers/coaches do so at such a reduced rate.
Coaching is not a requirement. It is a paid position - even for the jr. high track coach.
NO coaching position - at least in public schools - is a well paid position, I understand that. But coaching is not a requirement for teaching. (and yes, someone that says they'll coach the jr. high track team has an upper hand when looking for a teaching position, I understand that - let's not too technical, ok?) 
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And I could show you many people who work 50-60 hour weeks AND coach community sports teams as well, or volunteer at shelters, schools, churches.
Claiming a volunteered activity as additional hours over regular working hours should not even enter the equation.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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they also have at least 1 free period per day.
It's actually called a planning period. Teachers do not have it off, they just do not have a class. Frequently they spend at least part of it with students who need to spend extra time with them. Teachers also make themselves available before or after school when asked.
Nuh uh, they just sit around and twiddle their thumbs!
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you and DC bring up fair points. it is not required (probably a good differentiating thing to have in a down economy, but not required).
I was showing how the 60-80hr work weeks could easily be achieved if coaching was part of it.
It is a good differentiator, I don't argue that. My company makes money by us having billable hours, there are plenty of other non-billable stuff like business development that most of us do.. in a down economy you really need to be one of those guys that does stuff other just billable work because it is recognized...
Keep in mind, my point has never been that teachers have it easy.. just that if you compare them to other similarly qualified professionals, they do ok.. that's it. I never said they were getting rich, I never said they all suck and don't care, I never said any of that...
and on a side note, there is a big difference between a 60 hour week and an 80 hour week... 
yebat' Putin
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they also have at least 1 free period per day.
It's actually called a planning period. Teachers do not have it off, they just do not have a class. Frequently they spend at least part of it with students who need to spend extra time with them. Teachers also make themselves available before or after school when asked.
Call it what you want - planning period, exercise period, run up town and do errands period, grade papers period - whatever - it is 40 to 45 minutes of free time to use as the teacher sees fit.
Again, I can't speak with authority about any school other than Archbold - I get that, I understand it.
I do know, here, that teachers are not relegated to play ground duty - we have "duty teachers" that watch the kids at recess (that's 15 minutes in the morning, 15 minutes in the afternoon, and the remainder of the lunch period when kids are done eating).
Teachers here do not sit in the cafeteria when the kids eat - we pay cafeteria monitors to do that.
8 to 3 = 7 hours a day. Subtract the 30 minute lunch, the 30 minutes of recess, the 40 to 45 minutes of no class time (when the class is at art, music, gym, etc)..........that's 7 hours minus at minimum over an hour and half of time teachers can do as they see fit - and you get at most 5 1/2 hours a day. Other than any "extra" time teachers spend.
Hardly a long day by any stretch, would you agree?
And even though it seems like I am, I'm not knocking teachers. They do a job I would not care to - and I love kids, and I love doing the spelling tests in my daughters class every other friday morning.
Like I said - I know it sounds like I'm knocking the teaching profession - I'm not. But, at least here - teachers aren't putting in 60 hour weeks. 40 hour weeks is pushing it really. And our school system is absolutely one of the best in the state for public schools.
I don't begrudge teachers. I don't hate them. Some really good friends are teachers right here in this school district. Our teachers union, a few years ago, relinquished the automatic raises because the school didn't have the money. I give them 100% credit for that. (the deal was we won't take a raise of 2% per year for 2 years, in order to get a 5% raise after that.......but that's beside the point).
Bottom line: I can speak about Archbold schools because I know, and it really isn't much different for other public schools in this area.
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they also have at least 1 free period per day.
It's actually called a planning period. Teachers do not have it off, they just do not have a class. Frequently they spend at least part of it with students who need to spend extra time with them. Teachers also make themselves available before or after school when asked.
Nuh uh, they just sit around and twiddle their thumbs!
I think this is a good time for me to say that I don't think Arch thinks of it this way. I assume you either are or know a teacher. If I am right than you know of teachers who do nothing during this period. You also know of teachers who use the exact same lesson plans, dittos and other things tear after year. They are a small minority but like in other professions they are the ones who get noticed more.
#gmstrong
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No, certain teachers that you have seen come in at 8 am are not working 60 hours a week. You mean to tell me you know the work schedule of every teacher in the school district?
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No, certain teachers that you have seen come in at 8 am are not working 60 hours a week. You mean to tell me you know the work schedule of every teacher in the school district?
No, I don't mean to tell you that. What I do mean to say is if a teacher is saying they work 60 hours a week, they either lie, only do it a few times a year, or they have no clue what they are doing.
I stated it fairly clear I believe. When I hear that "teachers work so many more hours than anyone knows......", it is fair to point out that not all teachers do. And furthermore - I doubt many do.
Again, me stating facts is coming across as me attacking teachers - and that is NOT what I'm doing.
As I stated, a typical day for teachers in THIS school district is 7 hours, minus lunch and the free time and recesses it comes out to less than 5 1/2. I don't really care if they spend an hour or so at home lesson planning (what worked last year is what works this year for the most part), or grading papers.
They DO get at minimum a week at Christmas - 3 days for spring break, and 2 1/2 months for summer. What they do with their time is up to them.
I just don't like hearing "teachers have it so bad and no one knows how tough it is...." stuff.
I'm not saying it's easy. It's called a job for a reason, right?
Again, I grew up with a mom that taught for 37 years. I have friends that are currently teachers in this school district, and I have 2 cousins that work in N. Carolina (thanks to DC I might add)..........60 hours a week is crazy - as for "working'.
Cousins in N. Carolina are working on masters degrees right now. They still don't hit 60 hours a week, let alone 80.
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