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It said he wasn't required to run complex routes.
It's not like he couldn't be taught.
Green is the most polished at this..even Jones is not a polished route runner.
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Did you even watch his highlight film? I just want to ask that question. One clip shows him blocking a DB, putting him on rollerskates, and pancaking him into the endzone (and then he taunts the DB for a penalty  ) Maybe you didn't watch the whole highlight? I don't know...Also, I don't believe his QBs were too great.
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#gmstrong
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http://draftbreakdown.com/scouting-report-greg-littleQuote:
Blocking
Greg Little is very big and extremely strong for a receiver. As a former running back, he may not have a ton of experience as a run-blocker, but he shows plenty of ability. Often times, his blocking will reflect the grit and competitiveness he displays in his complete game. Expect him to receive plenty of attention from run-heavy teams.
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You can quote me on this,
ON reading the article on Mike Holmgren's response to the " home run hitter" , in the article Holmgren apparently said, the whole time our WR's have been underrated.
36 catches is 36 catches, and it is not enough.
I'm so tired of hearing how these receivers are underated and then watching the Tigth End lead the team in catches.
There are 31 other teams in the NFL and almost nobody else would settle for this.
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Right, but whether he was required to do them just means he would be a project in terms of specifically learning how to run routes. Why do we draft a guy who doesn't have (or to be fair hasn't shown) the necessary attributes to be effective in our system? If we were running a downhill / deep threat attack like when we had winslow / Joey J / Braylon and added in Smith, I would absolutely love it. One more deep threat to make Andersons (or whoever had the arm) job easier. But right now, we need guys who can be drafted in the second round, make the starting lineup on opening day, and execute their precise routes perfectly so that McCoy can make a decision within a quarter of a second for a 3 to 5 yard gain. Smith definitely might be able to do that. *However*, he hasn't showed it yet. So why draft him and hope that he can? That's as risky to me as drafting a corner who runs a 4.29 but needs some work (and we took that guy in the 5th  ) ... Once again, I don't dislike Torrey Smith ... but show me one game where he made a significant impact by doing anything except for running down the sideline and then I will give him more props. I know he's fast as anyone, but we need quickness in and out of breaks, not top end vertical speed. I also like the other guys I listed because of their size and mismatch ability as well. Torrey Smith is between 6'0 and 6'1 ... he's also only 204 pounds. Greg Little 6'3 or so and 223 and played some running back early on. Can break tackles. Randall Cobb only 5'10 190 - 195 or so ... but was able to run out of their wildcat, play real running back and return kicks ... He's like a smaller Josh Cribbs and can break tackles. Hankerson 6'2 and 210 ... Actually I think he is very similar to Smith, but he is a little bigger and actually goes across the middle. I kind of hoped he would have been a Brown right now, but it's only because I saw a lot of Miami's games.
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Yeah, I forgot about that one play.
One play is one play. One play does not make him a great blocker.
Hell, I hope he is. CBS doesn't think he is. Neither did some other reports I read.
Hell, I hope the kid becomes a legitimate #1, and an All Pro. I just have my doubts that he will. I think that he has major, and I mean major character flaws. I think that he has an rare immaturity combined with an over inflated sense of entitlement. I could easily see this pick blowing up on the Browns.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Now ...I wish they had been patient at 27 and not spent that 3rd rounder.
I'm ok with the trade....there was a significant drop off from Taylor to the next rated DT and there were 3 teams who could have used a DT plus some teams possibly trading in front of our 27....if Taylor and jordan are of the board the DL talent pool took a drop imho...guys like Wilkerson and Heyward are less explosive and even worse 4-3 fits than Taylor...we would have picked Sheard here.
I'm the bggest uptrade hater around but to get Taylor and Pinkston we HAD TO uptrade (Pinkston was a no brainer anyway)...Pinkston had next to 0% chance of being there 20 picks later and was a big value pick and Taylor had at least a 50% chance of going...too much of a risk if the drop off was significant...Heckert obv had him in his top 10 or 15 and the drop off to his next DL was worth the 3rd to him...now, you can say the next tier of DL weren't much worse but I'd agree with Heckert...Taylor was clearly the best DT left....I only disagree with Heckert on Cam Jordan but if the plan was to draft a DT in the 1st then the trade was absolutely necessary
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Quote:
Quote:
Torrey Smith doesn't fit the Browns at all.
Nice explanation..oh wait ,you didn't give one.
Our quarterback, Colt McCoy, is best at throwing short quick passes. Torrey Smith is best at catching deep passes. That doesn't seem to mesh well.
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it wasn't just one play though, that just happens to be the one play that they actually included in his highlight films. i also gave a scouting report that sums up his blocking. he's big, he's strong, and he is tenacious. those are all attributes of a good blocking WR. now, he needs more experience as he'll likely make some mistakes, but all the tools are there. in fact, just look at how he plows through DBs on his catches. now, imagine he has two hands to stiff arm those DBs on blocks and doesn't have to worry about holding onto a ball. I get that he has major concerns. there are quite a few red flags on him that have been well detailed. however, blocking is not one of them. here are some more scouting reports about his blocking in addition to the one I already posted above: http://withthefirstpick.com/2011/02/19/greg-little-scouting-report/Quote:
Competitiveness/ Toughness: Plays with an abundance of passion. You can see it every time he stepped onto the field. Plays every play with the same enthusiasm and want-to. Shows a desire to pick up extra yards and tries to move the chains by any means necessary. Is relentless and stubborn with the ball in his hands. Usually takes a group of defenders to bring him down. Displays a physical prowess when blocking in the run game. Gets very aggressive and tries to lay defenders out.
http://www.draftcountdown.com/ScoutingReports/WR/Greg-Little.php
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Strengths:
• Excellent height and bulk with a thick, sturdy build
• Powerful and will go right through and break tackles
• Tough and isn't at all afraid to go across the middle
• Showcases the ability to be a very effective blocker
• Extremely confident and plays the game with an edge
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Our quarterback, Colt McCoy, is best at throwing short quick passes. Torrey Smith is best at catching deep passes. That doesn't seem to mesh well.
If we're drafting around the shortcomings of your supposed franchise QB, then we're doomed anyway...any QB has got to be able to throw deep or the short stuff will be stuffed
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Like I said .... I hope you're right.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
You can quote me on this,
ON reading the article on Mike Holmgren's response to the " home run hitter" , in the article Holmgren apparently said, the whole time our WR's have been underrated.
36 catches is 36 catches, and it is not enough.
I'm so tired of hearing how these receivers are underated and then watching the Tigth End lead the team in catches.
There are 31 other teams in the NFL and almost nobody else would settle for this.
I agree, our WR corps the last two seasons has been damn pathetic. No one can dispute they have not been able to get open nearly enough and don't stretch the field.
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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I thought Colt's short and mid level passes were excellent for the most part. His deep balls some were really good, some were not so good. Colt seems to be one of those quarterbacks that trusts his receivers to go up and get the football.
Browns receivers do not know how to go up and get the football. They don't know how to finish a route. How many corner routes did we see guys stop and look back to see where the ball was instead of just finishing the route and trusting the ball to be there? This is why Colt loved going to Moore. He trusted him to go up and make the play.
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Colt also threw 8 INTs in 3 games against PIT and BAL...mostly because his deep ball sucked...big time...it's in the air forever and DBs, esp with good S, always have an advantage over the own WR, who has to look back on the ball
I know our WRs were worthless last season (thanks again Eric M.) but Colt has a pretty big problem of his own....I highly doubt his deep passes will ever be adequate for the NFL and that will be a problem going forward...you can dink and dunk as long as it's a 1 score game but when you're in a hole you need a QB that can still zip balls into a D that knows what is coming, instead of living off of the play action, which Colt had going in many games thanks to our OL and Hillis....I think my problem in a nutshell is: Colt is a game managing QB and I want a game winning QB (like Rodgers, Roethli, Brees....even Freeman proved to be capable)...Colt is a smart, "not to lose" type of QB, who needs lots of talent around him to work...I'd like a QB, that makes the talent around him better because of his play instead...
It will be fun following both Colt's and Gabbert's career, who I wanted to draft this year...I hope we didnt do the same mistake again bypassing Rodgers, Roethli and Freeman for a backup type QB but I dont have a good feeling about all this
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I hope that McCoy either answers all of the questions about him this year ..... or else blows up so completely that we are in position to draft, and are in need of, one of the top QBs next year.
I hope he's not "Charlie Frye good" ..... where he has a decent completion percentage, and does OK here and there ..... and shows a little growth ...... but really never develops.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Django, I can completely understand all of your concerns and I'm not going to try to disagree with any of them, but I also think that this situation is different. Colt Wasn't necessarily annointed the guy as in some years past, he was a value pick for the end of the third round that stepped up when asked and tried to win us a few games. Under the circumstances he did pretty well (with his first three games being against pit, no, and new) ... and I think that this offseason he has shown his leadership already with organizing workouts and trying to grow into the role.
However, I think that we sit in a great position currently. The team appears to be adding talent to compete, and as long as Holmgren doesn't get an itchy trigger finger, we have another 3 to 4 years to add talent into the same system at LEAST. If he is a game manager and in three years hasn't taken us to the post season and hasn't proven it ... almost anyone who we get will put us over the top.
Frankly I don't think he makes it more than another year as the starter without showing something though, but if he can even be a game manager then we will have time to add talent around him and the team will be in a much better shape when a new QB comes in than it has been in since the early 90's ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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It is a weird situation and i kinda have to agree with Ytown. I want Colt to succeed or fail misserably. No in between. Show us that we are set at QB or put us in position for Andrew Luck.
DJ, Colt's td and ints are a bit skewed. First off Daboll's playcalling often bordered on lunacy. Most of the red zone trips, the ball just went to Hillis. The picks were kinda 50/50. Half were decent throws where bad things happened due to butter fingers, receiver giving up on the throw and such. The other half were weak throws and bad throws,(you are correct in those at the end of the year were bad)
Now I am a huge fan of colts, I love the idea of Colt running Shurmur's offense. I think it is a perfect fit but the questions have to be answered.
Is the shoulder going to be a problem? I saw his arm get weaker as the season wore on. Is overall durability going to be an issue? the biggest question is simply does he have the talent to be a good NFL quarterback?
Hell even if Colt looks good this year, I would be taking a hard look at what it would take to get to the top of next years draft. With the way things have been going, they need a little Luck lol.
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It seemed like last year's picks were much more scheme diverse with the exception of Colt who never really fit Daboll's scheme. I think that was just a Holmgren pick just in case things falter under Mangini.
This year's draft was very scheme specific. top to bottom Heckert found players that fit what our coaches want. They either fit Shurmur's dink and duck run after catch philosophy or they fit Jauron's version of the 4-3. They all have the same attributes as well. Tough, physical, big hitters that want to be coached seems to fit everyone we drafted this year and last year.
Out of last years draft we have Haden, Ward, Lauvao and Colt who will be starting. Hardesty hopefully will be majorly contributing.
This year's draft we have Taylor, Sheard, Little and Marecic who should be starting and Pinkston was brought in to replace Steiny either this year or next. Buster Skrine playing the nickel or dime will get playing time.
It is going to be interesting to see how quickly these young kids can come in and adapt and also come together as a team. I think this is gonna be the most interesting training camp we have ever had, if we have one that is lol.
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Very good points, I appreciate it! I completely agree with you about the interesting / importance of a season, and I also thought that while I wouldn't ever root for a year where we didn't have a season, this year could end up being somewhat like a redshirt year which would favor us (and cincy) in the division if the lockout extended into the year and we missed a season. A lot of our players would have (hopefully) a full year to learn and grow, and we would more or less get to unveil the 2011 and the 2012 drafts in the 2012 season as we were finishing assembling the offensive and most of the defensive pieces. Meanwhile, teams like Pitt and Baltimore might be hitting a major bump, as most of their players are already old (isn't Pittsburgh's starting D the average age of 32 or 33? I thought that's what it was at the super bowl anyway). So, while I'm not ROOTING for a lockout and just want it done, it would be funny to see other teams get old and retire while we had a redshirt class of about 8 players plus the unofficial redshirt of Hardesty and the half red shirt (is that called a pink shirt?  ) of McCoy who only played a few games ... It could be interesting to see a lot of talent come in at once and hopefully take the league by surprise.
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Now I am a huge fan of colts, I love the idea of Colt running Shurmur's offense. I think it is a perfect fit but the questions have to be answered.
Tell ya' what bud...If I'm Holmgren I better see a McCoy who I DEFINITELY know will take this team to a Bowl game and win it...
If he has ANY single doubt...We have the ammo to move to #1 for Luck...And we better do it...We could also trade McCoy...
If we are in the Top 7 say...We have 2 Firsts to give...It will also cost us our 2013 1st Rounder...And I give whoever is at #1 ANY other pick they want in 2012...Including our 2nd rounder...
Luck is that damn good...
Hopefully Carolina has the #1 pick...They will never take Luck now,,,They would drool over those extra picks...
I can hear it now..."We gave up way 2 much to trade up"...I say BS...Luck is that damn good...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
Now ...I wish they had been patient at 27 and not spent that 3rd rounder.
I'm ok with the trade....there was a significant drop off from Taylor to the next rated DT and there were 3 teams who could have used a DT plus some teams possibly trading in front of our 27....if Taylor and jordan are of the board the DL talent pool took a drop imho...guys like Wilkerson and Heyward are less explosive and even worse 4-3 fits than Taylor...we would have picked Sheard here.
I'm the bggest uptrade hater around but to get Taylor and Pinkston we HAD TO uptrade (Pinkston was a no brainer anyway)...Pinkston had next to 0% chance of being there 20 picks later and was a big value pick and Taylor had at least a 50% chance of going...too much of a risk if the drop off was significant...Heckert obv had him in his top 10 or 15 and the drop off to his next DL was worth the 3rd to him...now, you can say the next tier of DL weren't much worse but I'd agree with Heckert...Taylor was clearly the best DT left....I only disagree with Heckert on Cam Jordan but if the plan was to draft a DT in the 1st then the trade was absolutely necessary
Just stunned...wow U like the players..U actually like the players..
Well actually from everything I heard Heckert say,once they decided to move down Taylor was the target..in fact he said Taylor was a target anyway.
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Often times teams aren't able to move but the guy they want is projected 20 spots below where they are. Some take the risk and try to trade down and hope he falls. Others take him where he is like the Jags did last year. 49ers, Titans, Vikings all did it this year.
I think we had been trying to trade down for well over a month after we set our board because of how the board stacked and Taylor may have been our target if we had not been able to move. Heckert sounds like he won the lottery by being able to trade bac up and get him.
That doesn't make him any better of a prospect but it certainly shows that this was the mold of what he wanted in a defensive tackle. I thought we might be going for more of the athletic big man in the middle (more of what the eagles do) and not so much what Jauron targeted before but this was a Jauron DT all the way.
Green, peterson, Dareus, after that hell it may have been Aldon Smith and Phil Taylor next on our boards. I dont think Jones was a target nor Fairley ( i was really wrong on that one). Doesn't seem like we had any value on Amukamara or Cam Jordan either.
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j/c http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/121362338.htmlMarecic is old school addition for Browns By Stephanie Storm Beacon Journal sports writer POSTED: 10:10 p.m. EDT, May 05, 2011 Old school. That's the best description of Owen Marecic, the Browns' fourth-round pick in the 2011 NFL Draft. Beyond turning back the clock by playing fullback and linebacker at Stanford University, Marecic went about his business as if football already was his job. After scoring a touchdown, he would jump up and hand the ball to a referee. After making a crucial tackle, he would get back to the huddle without any self-congratulatory antics. Browns General Manager Tom Heckert likes the character of Marecic but only plans to play him at fullback. ''He's a legit fullback,'' Heckert said. ''I mean, he can lead block, he can catch the ball, he can run the football, but obviously his strength is blocking and catching.'' Heckert also said Marecic ''is going to be a great special teams player.'' At fullback, he's an insurance policy if Lawrence Vickers, a soon-to-be free agent when the NFL gets back after the lockout, has his five-year career with the Browns end. The 6-foot, 246-pound Marecic didn't just play both positions since high school. He's excelled at each. He earned the inaugural Paul Hornung Award in January for the most versatile football player and was an All-Pac-10 Conference section at linebacker and fullback. During his senior season, he averaged 100 plays per game. During a Cardinal victory at Notre Dame in September, Marecic scored on consecutive plays on offense and defense in a span of 13 seconds to put the exclamation point on Stanford's 37-14 win. Midway through the fourth quarter, he bulldozed his way into the end zone on a 1-yard touchdown run. After a 2-point conversion and the ensuing kick off, Marecic intercepted Irish quarterback Dayne Crist's pass and sprinted 20 yards into the end zone untouched for another score. When he answered a question on draft day about his standout series of plays, Marecic downplayed his individual role and talked up the team effort it took. ''It was great to be a part of a couple plays that kind of clinched the game in our favor,'' he said. ''But it was a typical display of what a team has to do collectively to win a ballgame.'' Asked what position he'd like to play in the NFL, Marecic didn't hesitate to answer. ''I've been training as a fullback,'' he said. ''I always tried to train to be a football player, but fullback may be the best place I feel at home best.'' In addition to opening holes for the Cardinal running backs, including 2009 Heisman Trophy runner-up Toby Gerhart, Marecic totaled 11 career touchdowns, nine as a rusher, one receiving and one on the interception return. ''What Owen is doing is really hard,'' former Cardinal coach Jim Harbaugh told Sports Illustrated. ''For one thing, he is playing the two most physical positions on the field. How many guys are in that kind of shape or are physically talented enough to do that? Then there's the mental part. Most guys couldn't comprehend a pro-style system on offense and a pro-style system on defense. It's multiple packages, fronts, coverages, blitzes, personnel groups, plays, adjustments. Who's smart enough to get all those things the first time and actually go out and do them on the field?'' Marecic is smart enough. He graduated with a degree in human biology, is a National Football Foundation Scholar-Athlete Award recipient and a finalist for the 2010 William V. Campbell Trophy (considered the academic Heisman). Marecic's combination of smarts and game-changing ability on both sides of the ball made him a favorite of Harbaugh, now coach of the San Francisco 49ers. ''In 30 years of being in college and pro football, I haven't seen a guy like him,'' Harbaugh told SI. ''He does everything right, all the time, the first time. He has everything — strength, humility, intelligence. He's everything I envisioned being as a football player.'' Harbaugh was so enamored by Marecic's throwback style of play, he kept one of the several helmets Marecic cracked during play displayed proudly in his Stanford office. At the coach's request, Marecic signed the helmet, adding these words all in capital letters: ''Today give all that you have, for what you keep inside you lose forever.'' Marecic wasn't looking to appear poetic, he was just sharing words he plays by. In fact, he later told SI he didn't understand what all the fuss about the helmet was about. ''These things happen,'' he said. ''I don't see the glamour in it.''
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Harbaugh was so enamored by Marecic's throwback style of play, he kept one of the several helmets Marecic cracked during play displayed proudly in his Stanford office. At the coach's request, Marecic signed the helmet, adding these words all in capital letters: ''Today give all that you have, for what you keep inside you lose forever.''
gotta love it
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So the hope would always be for improvements with the draft, with new picks players added, If you look at how the team talent shook out at the end of December 2010, you would hope to keep the team together and get upgrades where you can. It is not like the team was 11-5 last year and your trying to keep the success going, the team was bad with a good defensive line last year. The first two picks, Taylor and Sheard are going to have to fill in for the losses of CJ Mosley, Shaun Rogers, Kenyon Coleman, and possibly Robaire Smith. with Taylor, you get a big Man to clog the Middle, but in 2010 they already had that, and also going back to 2008 that wasn't a problem, because before Rogers, Washington was on the team for 2 years. The point is there was just an attempt to keep the status quo with the first two picks, and the status quo is a 5-11 football team. The next pick, Greg Little, a Wide Receiver,...... At least they haven't yet cut all of the other Wideouts, who all have been low in production, so this pick, for now is actually an addition. The problem is it is a small splash,(on paper), maybe Little will be a commodity rising in value. The 2 picks of Jordan Cameron, and Owen Marecic, have one thing in common, The Browns already had at least productive starters at those positions, and depth at the tight end, ( even though the Browns tight ends were still probably the worst in the division) ; you don't need depth at fullback, you only need one. So they each weren't really an addition to the talent pool unless you count the possible upgrade they could have on two already really good players. Vickers... Marecic, and Ben Watson.... Jordan Cameron, or even Evan Moore, It is like 6 on one hand vs half a dozen on the other It is also llike 6 on one hand vs half a dozen on the other for the other pick. Next you take Buster Skrine,  probably gonna pan out, we can hope, but Arguably the Strength of the Browns last year were the upgrades to the pass defense that Haden and Ward provided and the addition of Skrine is only going to maringally improve the pass defense, in a best case scenario. The pass defense was a strength of the matchups of the 5-11 2010 Browns, so your pass defense goes from a 94 to a 96 6 on one hand , half a dozen on the other, then they pick Peterson, to play Offensive Guard, This could be a knock on Lavaou not working out, this could be a look for a player to provide more Mass against larger Dt's when Steinbeck has trouble, or this could have been just a value pick because he can play most spots. At best a slight upgrade to the O-L if he pans out, But the O-line was ( at least compared to most of the last decade) the O-line was a matchup advantage for the 5-11 2010 Browns. What can be said about the pick of Hagg, Sorenson, Mike Adams, Ventrone, Hagg, just another player who will work hard to find a roster spot on the team, Just another addition to what was a strength of the 2010 Browns. Did the Browns get younger in the Draft? yes. Did they create some questions for who will get to make the team and thus hopefully get guys to do more? Yes. Did the 2010 Browns improve where they were the most in need of talent, at the offensive skilled positions? Yes, with one player (Little) they did. Did the Browns get better because of this draft ( talent wise) than they were in Mid December of 2010? NO !!!!! They are worse because the defensive front 7 is weakend due to attrition and depth loss. So at this point I will give this draft the grade of a B or a B+, this was a solid draft. The Problem is the Cuts in February made this Browns 2010-2011 offseason team remarkably less talented and it took the Top of this 2011 draft to fill in the gap, to return the talent pool to almost what was there in December of 2010. There is no way I would give this draft an A, because they avoided the Quarterback, Wide receiver, and RunningBack, with the bulk of the Picks Again! as they have most years! And it shows in the win loss record. There's nothing you can do though because without a front 7 the win loss record would be even worse. So congratulations, we vacuum again. If your QB can FOM for a CEZ then you Don't need YAC!
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Legend
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Before the season, we all like to look at the roster and try to figure out who makes it and who doesn't. Sometimes we have had tough decisions for those last couple of spots.
Last year about 35 players looked to even be worthy of a roster spot. Beyond that 35 it was excuse making to justify a roster spot. Mangini filled this roster with old useless players and his draft picks havent exactly wrecked havoc on the NFL either.
The players we dumped were either duds or didnt fit. Robaire is old and cant stay healthy. Mosley is an effort guy, the streets are full of those. Rogers has been in steady decline. he was due nearly 7 mil and last year and he couldnt stay healthy. Even when he played he just wasnt that effective.
Rubin was the only one along that defensive line that was worth a damn. Taylor is an upgrade. He is closer to what Rogers was when he was actually healthy and able to to contribute. Rubin and Taylor is an upgrade over Rubin and all those bums that wont be back.
We didnt have anyone that fit our scheme as a DE other than Benard. So Sheard is an obvious upgrade for the defense.
Little gives us a true #1. This guy after 1 year at receiver was considered a top 15 pick coming into the season. He also comes from a very similar system as to what Shurmur runs. He should help open up things for our receivers as well as for Colt.
Jordan was a pick for the future. Marecic was another player from a similar offense and he should provide the same type of blocking as Vickers with better hands. BTW Vickers sucked the first 4 or 5 weeks last year. Went on a tear through the middle of the season and was often Ðnjured down the stretch. I wonder about his medical.
Pinkston was a 3rd round guard talent easily. I think he will replace Steiny who just gets pushed to easy and is getting old and he really isnt made for our scheme. Pinkston, Lauvao give us big powerhouse blockers for the interior and man our interior needs it. I think Lauvoa and Pinkston may very well start this year.
Skrine is a depth corner and we needed depth and speed.
We had an old and often injured roster full of special teamers that didnt fit our scheme. Bottom line we are a better team after the draft than we were before the draft. We will add more talent in the free agent market.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
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No offense .... but if we aren't a better tean after the draft than we were before the draft, then someone should lose their job.
Mangini inheritted a train wreck. He had no QB. He had 1 WR who didn't want to play all the time .... and who he didn't dump until he got in a fight outside a bar. He had an injury prone ... wait .. what's beyond prone? ..... TE who wanted to be the highest paid TE in the league. He had 2 DL who didn't fit the 3-4 very well. H ehad the end of Jamal Lewis .... the downside of Jerome Harrison (who wasn't "discovered" yet) .... He had Martin Rucker, and Jason Wright and Donte Stallworth coming out of jail .....
He had the end of Steve Heiden .... and the never was of Martin Rucker. He had Steve Smith and
the amazing Syndric Steptoe at WR. Let's not forget about Kevin Shaffer at RT. Wow.
He had Jackson tear a muscle on defense. He had Brandon McDonald and the oft injured Brodney Pool on defense. He had Shaun Rogers and Shaun Snith and Corey Williams rerturning on defense ..... and none of them really fit the 3-4 all that well. Rogers was the closest to being a fit .... and he was .. well .... Shaun Rogers. That meant consistently inconsistent performance across the board.
Who were our LB in Crennel's last year anyway? Willie McGinnest? Andra Davis? D'Qwell Jackson? Kam Whimbley?
Hardly the Steelers LB corp there.
Mangini may not have got the job done as far as righting the ship completely here, but he started with utter and complete crap across the board. He had Joe Thomas and special teams specialists. Let's not go rewriting history to say that Mangini was hired off a seacon where we were an offensive juggernaut, and stopped people cold on defense. The 2008 Browns scored 17 total TDs on offense. They allowed 35 defensively. That's what Mangini took over.
When he was fired, the team had improved to score 26 TDs and allow 33 on defense. Not great ..... but with the schedule last year, it was a significant improvement.
Now we start again. Hopefully we win a lot more than we have in the past 14 or so years. We'll have to see how it plays out. Hopefully Shurmur's the right guy to take us to the Super Bowl. Hopefully he's not the guy to drop us to 3 or 4 wins with a lack of discipline and all of the other things that used to drive me crazy.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Mangini brought in Mangini guys and they consisted of 2 very distinct categories.The young and useless and the old and worthless. He is the only coach in the history of football to fill his roster with 25 special teams players and then on special teams have half his starters out there covering punts and kicks.
The best thing that moron did to help the Browns was suck bad enough that it put us in position to fleece the falcons this year.
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Legend
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Legend
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I don't know many that would argue that Mangini inherited a bit of a mess.
However, he made it worse. Much worse.
His draft was probably the worst I've ever seen.
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Shurmur definitely has inherited the best team since the Browns have been back. His only problem though is now there is a scheme change on ALL ends in the middle of a lockout. 1) Advantage Shurmur.. Oline is pretty much in order. Bookend Tackle, Left Guard, and Center (thx Gini for Mack and him trying to follow the Jets blueprint). 2) Advantage Shurmur.. The secondary is more in place for the first time in a long time. However, I did like Jones, Pool, Wright, and McDonald, but it's clear that Haden is better than the rest, and Ward is no slouch. 3) Disadvantage Shurmur.. There are a lot of questions about the WR's.. 4) Disadvantage Shurmur.. D-line.. Hopefully w/ the draft though things won't seem as bad with the addition of Taylor and Sheard.. The d-line could become great real quick if Sheard and hopefully Benard (  ) get in sync.
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Geez Peen,, that kid is more than amazing.. WOW.
Thanks for the video
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Are you really trying to tell me that today's roster(prior to the draft) is worse than what Mangini inherited? Really?
He had 1 draft. He got a Pro Bowl quality Center. He drafted 2 WRs who are still on the team, and about whom Heckert has had good things to say as far as fitting the WCO. They have a LB in Maiava who might fit the 4-3 even better trhan he did the 3-4, and he was a special teams demon until he got hurt. And finally we have Coy Francies who returned to the team last year.
That's 5 players still with the team despite the coach being jettisoned.
If Savage had done that well, he'd still be here.
I'm certainly not saying that he had a great draft by any stretch .... but look at the enormous holes we had to fill coming out of the Savage/Crennel debacle. It was horrible.
Then look at the kids that Mangini and staff helped develop. Look at guys like Rubin ..... and Moore ..... and Benard, and Trusnic, and others that Mangini and his staff helped develop, and who will benefit Shurmur's regime quite a bit.
When Crennel and Savage left, there were 5 or 6 total players worth a damn on this team. There are, today, 19 legitimate quality players on this team either from before or during the Mangini years. That's a huge improvement.
Check the roster from Crennel's final year and compare it to today. It's much, much improved.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Hall of Famer
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Quote:
No offense .... but if we aren't a better tean after the draft than we were before the draft, then someone should lose their job.
Just my observation but I think that Mourgrym comments were intended to counter Throw Long's contention that we aren't a better team after the draft.
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Mangini inherited a train wreck.
Every Browns HC has inherited a "train wreck" and players that didn't fit their scheme or who just decided that they wouldn't play for the new HC. Mangini's failures all belong to him. He's the one that chose his GM that was fired. He is the one that kept Daboll around even though his play-calling sucked.
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Now we start again. Hopefully we win a lot more than we have in the past 14 or so years. We'll have to see how it plays out. Hopefully Shurmur's the right guy to take us to the Super Bowl. Hopefully he's not the guy to drop us to 3 or 4 wins with a lack of discipline and all of the other things that used to drive me crazy.
At least this time, it appears that all the coaches and front office are on the same page and have a congruous look at what needs to be done.
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Quote:
Shurmur definitely has inherited the best team since the Browns have been back. His only problem though is now there is a scheme change on ALL ends in the middle of a lockout.
So, are you saying that Mangini improved the situation or that Holmgren, Heckert, & Co. did so with last year's draft?
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1) Advantage Shurmur.. Oline is pretty much in order. Bookend Tackle, Left Guard, and Center (thx Gini for Mack and him trying to follow the Jets blueprint).
While Mack is a good center, was he worth the 1st rounder that the Browns used to select him? I'm not so certain of that. Of course, Mangini didn't get the value for falling back that Heckert did.
Also, it was Heckert that got rid of Quinn, brought in Hillis, and got us additional 6th round pick (doesn't look like Quinn will meet any qualifiers for the 2012 conditional pick), which was used to move up and select Pinkston, who could turn out to be a starting G for the team. If it had been just for Hillis, we'd have gotten the better part of the deal.
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2) Advantage Shurmur.. The secondary is more in place for the first time in a long time. However, I did like Jones, Pool, Wright, and McDonald, but it's clear that Haden is better than the rest, and Ward is no slouch.
Again, Mangini had both Haden & Ward on his team. While they are both rookies, they outperformed the veterans. Do you think that either Haden or Ward were Mangini selections? I didn't think so either.
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3) Disadvantage Shurmur.. There are a lot of questions about the WR's.
There were a lot of questions about the receivers before Heckert & Holmgren got to town. Holmgren & Heckert stated that they liked the receivers but drafted Greg Little to help boost the receiving corps. I have no problems with that. They also brought in a big TE and a FB that knows how to play on both sides of the LOS.
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4) Disadvantage Shurmur.. D-line.. Hopefully w/ the draft though things won't seem as bad with the addition of Taylor and Sheard. The d-line could become great real quick if Sheard and hopefully Benard ( ) get in sync.
The talent and ability are better with Phil Taylor than Shaun Rogers. Combining Sheard with Benard off the edge should be good for our defense. I hear lots of people say that Benard is a situational pass rusher. That may be so, but having them isn't a bad thing and maybe we'll find out what kind of player he is against the run. Even if we have Schaeffering and Derreck Robinson out there on some plays, we could absolutely do much worse.
I like how that DL looks. I really do. I've always liked the 4-3 more than the 3-4 anyway.
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what I'm saying is, is that Shurmur has inherited the best team... i dont care who drafted the players, or who brought them in.. He's just in a peculiar position though because of the lockout..
Believe it or not though, Mangini did help build a foundation IMO. He brought in some of the guys he liked, that he knew the younger players could grow from.
Thats my only problem with the dline.. Sheard and Taylor are good, but could definitely get better.. Besides the coaches, who do we have to teach them the tricks of the trade of playing the position. I really hope Robaire is healthy enough to come back in that regard.
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I agree with liking the 4-3 better. I like an aggressive attacking 4-3, where you pressure with the front 4 but can also mix in the blitz from anywhere. It is just so much easier to find 4-3 personnel.
Right now
DT i think Rubin, Taylor with Robaire and Ivey as the backups.
DE Sheard and Benard with Jayme Mitchell and Auston English
LB Fujita, Gocong, DQ with Maiava, Brown, Costanza, Trusnik
DB I have no idea besides Haden, Ward, Adams, Sheldon Brown, Skrine and Hagg ??? Elam and Wright will be free agents most likely.
Defense has some big questions with who starts, who is depth, who fits, which free agents return, I get the feeling we may see Gocong in dallas also. I think this is where our free agent attention is placed.
Offense is pretty well set.
QB Colt, Wallace and a Holmgren project Jake will probably be gone
RB Hillis & Hardesty undrafteds filling the 3 and 4 spots i would bet. Locke would be nice.
OL is set Thomas, Steiny, Mack, lauvao, Pashos with Pinkston, Yates and Womack as backups
FB Marecic will Vickers be back?
TE Moore, Watson, Cameron
WR Little, MoMass, Robo, Cribbs, Haggerty, Norwood and Mitchell *wonder if we could pry Steve Smith from Carolina ? lol
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Quote:
That's 5 players still with the team despite the coach being jettisoned.
Lol, and 1 of them being even close to league AVG or better (Mack)...out of Top10 pick and 4 top 50 picks...that draft sucked big time, so did the guy who orchastrated this draft....Savage was way better than than...he even managed to pick the occasional late round starter (Rubin, Vickers, McDonald)..Mangini needed 4 quality picks, a trade down (of low value...see Heckert HOW to trade down) to pick 1 (!!!) quality player..at a low risk, low value position anyway (interior OL, Mack was the highest drafted C all time)
Let it go YTown, there's simply no argument here, Mangini sucked, he didnt inherit the worst roster of all time, he had a ProBowl LT, WR, KR/PR, TE, DT and FB, that's way more than Crennel EVER got, we had this debate before...this draft sucked and set us back for years instead of improving us for years (that's what Heckert been doing btw).....I know you were his biggest cheerleader around ...but just let it go....guy was a horrible GM and HC and he didn't improve from an already bad Crennel team...and no, Shurmur doesn't inherit much more talent than Mangini....we always like to say that when HCs change because we simply overvalue our players or dont know who's going to decline/disappoint but it's simply not true
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Dawg Talker
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I don't understand the praise Mangini gets on this board. Some may argue that he laid a great foundation, but is that really the truth? I give more credit to Heckert and Holmgren for that. Mangini's draft day 09 set this team back several years. I'm happy with Alex Mack, but look at the talent we passed up to draft him, not to mention the absolute fleecing from the Jets trade. Mangini spent too much time trying to emulate Bill Belichick as head coach instead of making his own way as a coach.
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