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Just that it happened. We don't have a "why" and maybe never will. unquote

So my point is I was not mocking the big bang theory, ( I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to agree or disagree, I need to research it further), I was merely stating that I have a hard time believing that this universe is an accident, or the result of random chance. I think that the belief in God is far more rational, though it cannot be empirically proven. My whole point is that faith is rational and reasonable, not that it is scientific. It's one thing to disagree with my argument, but I think some have confused the issue.

Can I hold to this belief and still believe in a big bang?

Quote They only thing that you couldn't believe is that the universe is 6000 years old. The Big Bang Theory precludes that idea and shows that the universe's age is somewhere around 14.5 billion years old. This is fact. Unquote

I do not presume to know how old the universe is. Many creationists assume it is 6000 years old, but the Bible doesnt even ask the question, let alone answer it, so even if it is known with an absolute certainty that the universe is billions of years old, it still would not contradict the Bible.

There is an interesting fact about the Genesis account though. When God created man, He did not create an embroyo, fetus, infant, or even a child. He created a full grown man. The man had the appearance of age, the appearance of adulthood, even though he was only a day old. According to the Bible, he did not go through all the stages of development, though it appeared he did. Perhaps, God created the universe with the appearance of age. I am not saying it is so, just throwing it out there. Or maybe God performed in six days what would have taken the laws of nature billions of years. We do hold that He is Omnipotent. Remember, I'm not making scientific or theological assertions, just extrapolating.

Edit to say "never mind"

Science changes constantly. On everything.

Regarding the appeal to ignorance, I did not type what I meant to say. Here is the quote in context...

"... I know that spiritual things like life after death and the existence of God cannot be observed or proven scientifically but that doesnt mean that they don't exist, are not real, or have no truth. There are many things that are unknown and untested..."

I typed unknown, and what I meant to type was unobserved. Basically, what I meant to say is that it is reasonable to believe that there are things that exist that are unobserved and untestable. I do not believe that "empirical" knowledge is the only knowledge.

Regarding the various interpretations of Job 26:7: We must first observe what the passage says before we can interpret what it means.

The literal translation of Job 26:7- "He spreads out the north ever the emptiness, he hangs the earth on nothingness. The literal translation is in agreement to what I said it means.

Regarding the stars...

Your quote- "...However, if we're splitting them into categories and other cosmic objects, then we could understand how some people were getting something in the thousands..."Unquote

In first Corinthians the apostle Paul says that one star differs from another in glory. 1 Corinthians 15:41- There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from (5719) another star in glory.

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How did the ancient Hebrews know that the ideal time to circumcise a child was at 8 days old?

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Let me know if you feel this information is accurate.

In Genesis 17:12, God specifically directed Abraham to circumcise newborn males on the eighth day. Why the eighth day? In 1935, professor H. Dam proposed the name “vitamin K” for the factor in foods that helped prevent hemorrhaging in baby chicks. We now know vitamin K is responsible for the production (by the liver) of the element known as prothrombin. If vitamin K is deficient, there will be a prothrombin deficiency and hemorrhaging may occur. Oddly, it is only on the fifth through the seventh days of the newborn male’s life that vitamin K (produced by bacteria in the intestinal tract) is present in adequate quantities. Vitamin K, coupled with prothrombin, causes blood coagulation, which is important in any surgical procedure. Holt and McIntosh, in their classic work, Holt Pediatrics, observed that a newborn infant has “peculiar susceptibility to bleeding between the second and fifth days of life.... Hemorrhages at this time, though often inconsequential, are sometimes extensive; they may produce serious damage to internal organs, especially to the brain, and cause death from shock and exsanguination” (1953, pp. 125-126). Obviously, then, if vitamin K is not produced in sufficient quantities until days five through seven, it would be wise to postpone any surgery until some time after that. But why did God specify day eight?

On the eighth day, the amount of prothrombin present actually is elevated above one-hundred percent of normal—and is the only day in the male’s life in which this will be the case under normal conditions. If surgery is to be performed, day eight is the perfect day to do it. Vitamin K and prothrombin levels are at their peak. The chart below, patterned after one published by S.I. McMillen, M.D., in his book, None of These Diseases, portrays this in graphic form.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=1118

If this information is correct that's quite a coincidence.



Finally, the Bible asserts that we can understand God's power and nature by the material universe, which is God's masterpiece.

...Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made...

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Science changes constantly. On everything.

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Sure, that's the beauty, and it's not as bad as you'd like to paint it. We're free to change our mind if something that makes more sense and fits our observations comes along. But, it's important to remain skeptical until the new idea is vetted by the community at large. Too often these days people go to the news papers first, then a peer-reviewed journal second. It's not how scientific inquiry works. Now, that being said, there are quite a few things that haven't changed in science for hundreds of years. Newtonian physics has been around for quite awhile and are still used for non-relativistic calculations. Natural selection has been around for 150 years, and despite claims, it still proves to be the best case for how evolution occurs despite rigorous study. Many other scientific theories (not layman) are pretty set in stone and will only see minimal change as time goes on.

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If this information is correct that's quite a coincidence.

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You seem to think that people "back in the day" lacked observational skills. Why would it be so hard to believe that midwives or rabbis at the time noticed that boys that were eight days old bled less than earlier circumcisions? Why would that not be written into jewish law if it meant saving even one percent of baby boys at the time? That being said, if a boy is circumcised these days, they do it before they leave the hospital around day two.

But yeah, the idea seems to make sense.

Not if San Francisco has its way.. the liberal anti-semites there are trying to make circumcision illegal.

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The first mention of the command to circumcise male children in the Bible was as part of God's covenant with Abraham.

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Which was written down after his life correct?

Yes that is correct. It was written by Moses. Nevertheless, from Abraham until Moses brought the Israelites out of Egypt, they still practiced circumcision. During the long wilderness sojourn, they stopped doing it, then Joshua reinstated it when the time came for them to enter the Promised Land.

Joshua 5: 2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time. 3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. 4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise : All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt. 5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised : but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised

Here's something fun and philosophical at the same time. I hope someone besides me enjoys it.

http://youtu.be/94z9SIiM38w

So it's really just speculation to attribute it to God, rather than observation and implementation by the people in charge.

I don't attribute it to God, the Bible does. The way you interpret it depends on if you believe in the integrity of the Bible. We could ask the same question about Moses that we did about Christ, was he a liar, lunatic, devil, or prophet? He claimed to talk to God after all. So do you hold that Moses was a liar, insane, false prophet, or true prophet? If circumcision was instituted by man not by God, then Moses was a deceiver. You can go there if you want, but I'm not.

Most Christians reject the word "religion" as an insufficient definition or description of Christianity. Most of us prefer the word "relationship" to religion.

Religious people of all types are guilty of atrocities whether they call themselves Christians, Moslems, Hindus, or whatever. Jesus did not come to bring us religion. If you read the New Testament, His harshest criticisms were directed at religious people. The prophets speak against vain religion as well.

Micah 6:6-8 ¶ How shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what the LORD requires of you, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

j/c

Since this thread is going I may as well put this here.

Now, I know some will poo poo this, and that's fine. I know some will attempt to explain it away, and that's fine. However - this happened to me today:

Working for an older lady. I'd been there maybe 2 other times over the years. Her daughter was there also.- maybe 55 years old or so?

Anyway, when I walked in the daughter said "this will be the last time you come here. We just found out April 17th that mom has an inoperable tumor on her brain. The doctors said anywhere from 10 days to 3 months to live." Wow.

So, when I was done I didn't think I should just take off - so we talked for a little bit. Come to find out, back in January, the mom (83 years old) called her daughter at 3 in the morning, scared to death. The daughter went over, of course.

Seems the mom had seen her husband that night. Now, he died 50 years ago, okay? When Mary, the mom - saw him he said to her "Mary, why don't you come home with me?" And she replied "But Marv, I'm not ready yet." Marv replied "okay, you don't have to come yet, but I'll see you again soon."

Mary saw her husband - or a visage of him - in January, asking her to come home with him, and she wasn't ready. He said okay, I'll see you again soon. 3 months later, she has an inoperable, fast growing tumor that doctors say will kill her within 3 months.

Just thought that would fit in here. Not trying to convert anyone - not trying to do anything but relay a true story, as told to me by the persons it is happening to.

By the way, Mary was calm, cool, collected - she said she's at peace with this life. We chatted for a bit longer.....and when I had to go I gave her a big hug, said God Bless, and I left.

Thank you for sharing this. I will be praying for this woman and her family. It is good that she is ready, but don't give up on the possibility of her being healed or cured. Once God told a king, ( I cant remember which one), that he was going to die, and the king prayed and God extended his life. Prayer is powerful. Either way, all we can do is leave it in God's hands. He takes care of those who trust Him.

For believers "To live is Christ and to die is gain..."Philippians 1:21


God Bless

"As I told them, for believers, true believers, death is not an end. It's not something to be feared, it's a glorious beginning. Death is only sad for those left here."

Very true. Thank you for posting that.