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Yeah, I don't think we're n good shape here, either.
Little will probably be our best WR. Robo I think is not well-suited to WCO... he's a jump-ball one-on-one guy. Massaquoi just hasn't turned the corner and needs to learn to adjust his routes with his feet instead of re4aching. He's going to get killed on one of those slants where he's reaching way behind himself. Mitchell please no more end-arounds with this guy. Cribbs... we'll see but this just hasn't panned out at all.
I have more hope for our TEs with Watson, Moore, and Cameron. They'll (once again) have to pick up the slack.
I bet we'll see a lot more circle routes with Hillis (and Hardesty) like we did last year. Ho-hum.
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actually.. i didnt realize how tall Little really is.. he is 6'3!! dang.. i was thinking 6'1 for some reason..
we could actually have our Julio Jones then.
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Julio Jones: 4.39 40
Greg Little: 4.53 40
Big difference in top end speed.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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o yea.. forgot about that "little" part.. haha. speed does matter, but his strength by far helps a little to make up for it.
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But as everyone has said, Jones doesn't play that fast on the field.
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I just find it hard to say these kids can't make it when I believe they have been in an impossible situation and in a scheme that didnt work. Hell 90% of the playcalling in the last 2 years made no sense.
That's the problem, the thoughts we are seeing from some folks were based on past years with an ineffective Offense coupled with them (Robo and MoMass) being rookies and 2nd year guys..
What will a new system bring? Dunno.. That's why I don't think that all the speculation can be counted on.. I suppose it's fun to do however...
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Thoughts?
What has transpired since last season to make our WRs legit ?
Until they can put up numbers 2 seasons in a row there is nothing legitimate about them, Our 1st and 2 dont even have one good season yet. Our 2 hasnt even had one good game, let alone a season. And whatever scrub project WR battles it out for the 3 rd hasnt done diddly.
The WRs are about as legitimate as Milli Vanilli.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss...
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. . . you know it's true.
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Quote:
The WRs are about as legitimate as Milli Vanilli.
Ouch.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Players make or break a system. The system does not make or break the players. You put a stud in a bad system and he'll still make plays. You put a dud in an amazing system and he'll still struggle.
The previous coaching regime failed and was ultimately let go due to the failure of the players. Not the other way around. Thinking that a new coaching staff, scheme or philosophy is going to magically turn our pumpkins into something else is the kind of far-fetched blind optimism only the largest rose-colored fans should share.
What did we do to actually change the talent level of this group so far? We added a glorified running back who doesn't know how to play the position. That's it. Not to mention we're going to attempt to utilize this group significantly more this year by throwing the ball a lot more with the new offense. Be prepared to be very disappointed.
I think our offense is going to be a disaster this year. Think beginning of 2009 bad. Only now our defense is going to be a disaster too. Far too many holes for the new scheme. Holmgren didn't just blow this thing up last year. He dropped an atomic bomb on the team. We're in year 1 of a full blown, full fledged rebuild...again. I hope we get to 3 wins. We shall see.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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I think we have the potential to finally have a legitimate recieving corps. For this to come to fruition, everyone we have in place needs to develop into their potential. This is obviously easier said than done, but I do like many of the moves we have made.
That being said I still think we are missing at least one piece of the puzzle. We need to find a Kevin Johnson type guy who can add consistency to the passing game.
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iVP5Po2.png)
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I see what you are saying Graff..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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You put a stud in a bad system and he'll still make plays.
Like Johnathon Vilma in a 3-4...
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j/c
There is absolutely no way to know if we have a legit WR corps.
Momass and Robo could not get open or were not utilized properly. Little is a virtual unknown as are the rest. Cribbs is Cribbs, a ton of heart, no real position.
We don't really have a clue what this team will shape up to be until after Free Agency. Until then threads like this one or guessing the W-L record are just a waste of cyber space.
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Then why waste your time reading these threads and ours by posting in them? Is it to show us how smart you are? 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Did I miss a FA WR signing? </sarcasm>
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j/c
it generally takes three years for a widereceiver to get it, unless he is a really special player. So this is the year we find out what we have in Robo and MoMass..... but with the lock out, these guys lose valuable time learning the new system, so it just might be year 4 before we really know for sure.
But as of right now, no- we do not have a legit WR corps- this group isn't going to strike fear into anyone.
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That's where we disagree. I think MoMass is far and away the team's most overrated player on this board. I think he's out of the league in 3 years.
This...
MoMass is rather slow, has inconsistant hands and doesn't fight/adjust to balls in the air (pretty much the worst I've ever seen at this EVER in the NFL...he's either clueless or doesn't care...or both)...and to round it out he had 1 of the worst targets to reception% for 2 straight years out of all starting WRs in this league...he isn't good or even above AVG at any important WR trait...or short version: he sucks big time...
He's a #4/#5 WR (useless in the slot), a backup #2 WR on AVG teams...and that's only because he was drafted in the 2nd round and got playing time in the league....there are many Lance Moore type of UDFAs who are better or as good but never got the chance to play with a #1 overall drafted QB (Stafford) for a big CFB school (TV exposure/hype)
Robo is almost a carbon copy of what I wrote above, which makes Mangini's 2009 2nd round as dumb as it gets...we had 1 of the worst passing Os for a reason folks and it started when we dumped BE and KW for those hacks, they're overmatched and needed replaced last season...or better: never should have been drafted/relied upon to produce
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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General reply.
I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here.
The first of which is that Mohamed Massaquoi or Brian Robiskie are going to be either the #1 or #2 receiver on the team. I don't think that either one has proven that they are anything but a #3 (at best) receiver.
We drafted Greg Little and still have Chansi Stuckey on the team. I think that either Evan Moore (40-yd: 4.74) or Jordan Cameron (40-yd: 4.59) could be listed as a WR also. And this might actually be a plan of the coaching staff.
Either Massaquoi or Robiskie might hold onto being the 3rd or 4th receiver, but I think that there is a new football philosophy that's coming to the Browns this year. Even though Holmgren & Heckert have been here since last year, they gave Mangini his turn for a second year and then summarily dismissed him (with good reason).
I think we're going to see Little and either Moore or Cameron be chosen as our #2 or #3, depending on where they fit Stuckey into the system. Stuckey is more of a slot-type receiver and could very well remain in that role, holding down the #3 WR spot. Robiskie and/or Massaquoi could find themselves fighting for the #4 WR spot on the roster.
Thinking more about it, I think it'll probably be Cameron moved to the WR spot. He's faster (his 4.59 vs. 4.74 for Moore) and his vertical jump (37.5") is better than Moore's (27"), making him a better fit for being a WR. In fact, Cameron's numbers are better than Massaquoi's (40-yd: 4.60 and vertical: 36.5") and almost as good as Robiskie's (40-yd: 4.46) and he matched Robiskie's vertical (37.5").
I don't think that the coaching staff is looking at either Massaquoi or Robiskie as starting WRs in any case.
Just looking at it from a different prospective and I'm not buying the Massaquoi or Robiskie narrative at all. I think they could very well be fighting to stay on the roster. They may think that they have the inside track on keeping that WR job and whichever one looks like they're doing the best or putting the most effort forward will probably manage to stay on the roster. The other might not make the final cut.
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Quote:
Quote:
That's where we disagree. I think MoMass is far and away the team's most overrated player on this board. I think he's out of the league in 3 years.
This...
MoMass is rather slow, has inconsistant hands and doesn't fight/adjust to balls in the air (pretty much the worst I've ever seen at this EVER in the NFL...he's either clueless or doesn't care...or both)...and to round it out he had 1 of the worst targets to reception% for 2 straight years out of all starting WRs in this league...he isn't good or even above AVG at any important WR trait...or short version: he sucks big time...
He's a #4/#5 WR (useless in the slot), a backup #2 WR on AVG teams...and that's only because he was drafted in the 2nd round and got playing time in the league....there are many Lance Moore type of UDFAs who are better or as good but never got the chance to play with a #1 overall drafted QB (Stafford) for a big CFB school (TV exposure/hype)
Robo is almost a carbon copy of what I wrote above, which makes Mangini's 2009 2nd round as dumb as it gets...we had 1 of the worst passing Os for a reason folks and it started when we dumped BE and KW for those hacks, they're overmatched and needed replaced last season...or better: never should have been drafted/relied upon to produce
+1 
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Quote:
Julio Jones: 4.39 40
Greg Little: 4.53 40
Big difference in top end speed.
But then again, Colt isn't the type of QB who out throws receivers.
As long as Little has some quicks and can shake a defender in that 10-15 yard range, it is a perfect fit.
To me, top end speed is far of greater importance for corners who have to make up some ground.
For the most part, receivers get open in the first 10 yards of the route, not the last 10 yards.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Unfortunately, I rarely saw Little have those great breakaway plays in college. I saw a lot of 8-12 yard plays. He was really good at "moving the pile" as a WR. He looks strong. If he were a TE I might be excited by what he brings. (although, missing his senior year because of stupidity and ego would still be a huge concern)
Unfortunately, he's a WR who lacks top end speed. He's a WR who lacks big plays (20-40+ yards) on his resume. He has a few .... but that's not a big part of his game .... and generally "number 1 receivers" are guy who break those 20-40 yard plays regularly, and dominate the competition.
Comparing Julio Jones and Greg Little is almost laughable. They had approximately the same number of catches in their final years in school ..... but Jones had almost 400 more yards receiving.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We drafted Greg Little and still have Chansi Stuckey on the team.
Pretty sure Stuckey is not on the team.
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Quote:
I think there are a lot of assumptions being made here.
Perhaps. But reallistically Mass and Robo are going to be our 1 and 2 based on both experience and who else is on the roster. Its not gaurenteed but Id say its the most likely scenario. From a team standpoint they almost have to be, in order to evaluate them and determine wether they stay or go. Thats of course barring any big name signings.
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I think that either Evan Moore (40-yd: 4.74) or Jordan Cameron (40-yd: 4.59) could be listed as a WR also. And this might actually be a plan of the coaching staff.
If this is anywhere in the mind of our coaching staff we are doomed. And will be changing coaches again in 2 years. They are not receivers, and the only way they would be an upgrade over Mass and or Robo might be in toughness.
Ive only ever seen 2 TEs who I thought could legitimately be used as receivers and that is Gonzalez and Winslow pre knee. Being a non blocking TE doesnt automatically make you a receiver.
As sad as it is to say, Mass and Robo are our 2 best receivers.
Who knows, maybe Mass will learn to position himself correctly this year and become legit. I think Robo has the best chance of being legit if we can find a QB with accuracy and courage to throw into a tight space. But if we cant utilize his hands he is just another guy who cant get open.
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Yeah, a lot of WR's use speed to get open, but there are others like Larry Fitzgerald and Roddy White who aren't exactly speedsters. Roddy rarely goes deep. And don't forget, we're running a WCO. YAC is everything.
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That's my point.
Little has an average of 11.7 yards/catch in his junior year.
That is extremely unimpressive. It implies an inability to create YAC. It implies an inability to get open deep. I'm not 100% certain what he can do other than be a physical receiver with big, but inconsistent hands.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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YAC is one of his best traits. As a former RB, he can run with the football. He played in a WCO and was just learning the position, so really, that isn't such a bad stat.
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Quote:
Quote:
We drafted Greg Little and still have Chansi Stuckey on the team.
Pretty sure Stuckey is not on the team.
I think that he'll be resigned, because he's a better slot receiver than anyone we have on the team now other than him.
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That's kinda how I feel about my job, too...
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Quote:
Perhaps. But reallistically Mass and Robo are going to be our 1 and 2 based on both experience and who else is on the roster.
If you're suggesting that either Massaquoi or Robiskie is a legitimate #1 receiver, I have to question your sanity. In my humble opinion, Robiskie is the more likely of the two to remain on the team, if for no other reason than he has shown improvement.
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Its not guarenteed but Id say its the most likely scenario. From a team standpoint they almost have to be, in order to evaluate them and determine wether they stay or go. Thats of course barring any big name signings.
I'm quite sure that the front office and the coaching staff have evaluated their play and their workouts from last year.
It's possible that the front office goes and and tries to get a catcher like Smith. Who knows. We have to go on what we know we have and what we've drafted (and work from that).
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I've only ever seen 2 TEs who I thought could legitimately be used as receivers and that is Gonzalez and Winslow pre knee. Being a non blocking TE doesnt automatically make you a receiver.
Winslow couldn't fit that category at all. Gonzalez, Gates, Witten are a few that I can think of and Winslow doesn't even come close.
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As sad as it is to say, Mass and Robo are our 2 best receivers.
Why? Because the last HC thought so? He isn't here anymore. Neither is his OC. Because they were both taken with 2nd rounders by the previous HC and we have to see if they pan out?
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Who knows, maybe Mass will learn to position himself correctly this year and become legit. I think Robo has the best chance of being legit if we can find a QB with accuracy and courage to throw into a tight space. But if we cant utilize his hands he is just another guy who cant get open.
We have that QB on the roster already and he's the starter.
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It would not surprise me to see Norwood take that slot position.
He's quick, if not fast, has excellent hands, knows how to get open, and runs precise routes.
He's my sleeper at WR for this coming year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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That's kinda how I feel about my job, too...
Okay.... re-signed. 
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It would not surprise me to see Norwood take that slot position.
He's quick, if not fast, has excellent hands, knows how to get open, and runs precise routes.
He's my sleeper at WR for this coming year.
Maybe but I'm not sure what you base the view that he has excellent hands on? He hasn't caught a ball in a game. He was cut by the Browns and then cut by the Eagles.
I don't know if that's the answer... but what the hell! Give him a shot!
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While our QB situation is far from being as settled ... we are really only 1 major option from being "legit" ... don't forget that the 2001 Pats had Troy Brown with 1199 yards receiving, David Patten 749, and not another player (running back, tight end or wide out) have over 204 total yard receiving ... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2001.htmThen in their '03 year they developed into more what I think that we can be (simply looking at stats) http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nwe/2003.htmDeion Branch had 803 yards receiving as their leader ..then 4 more players with between 409 and 510 total yards recieving ... and a was a tight end and 1 was a running back ... Also looking at super bowl caliber teams recently? Team: Top 3 receivers in position/yards 2002 Buccaneers: WR 1088 / WR 670 / RB 477 2004 Patriots : WR 874 / WR 800 / WR 454 2005 Steelers: WR 975 / WR 558 / TE 459 2006 Colts: WR 1366 / WR 1310 / TE 377 2007 Giants: WR 1025 / WR 760 / TE 619 2008 Steelers: WR 1043 / WR 821 / WR 631 2009 Saints: WR 1074 / WR 804 / WR 722 2010 Packers: WR 1265 / WR 679 / WR 582 ... so what does that tell us? Give a quarterback at least a few weapons and not necessarily just wide receivers and you should be able to get production enough to get to the superbowl. Now obviously there are a lot of other factors like defenses, perhaps running games, quarterbacks coaches, luck, etc. But ... Aside from the '06 Colts ... not 1 team has had 2 1,000 yard receivers since 2001 and won the superbowl. In fact, only about half of the teams listed had even 800 yards from their secondary receiver ...and almost all of the number 3's are between 450 and 600 ish? That means for us to give Colt the options that a superbowl caliber championship team had, we need around 1,000 yd receiver, 800 yard receiver, and a 500 yard receiver. in basic statistics, that means if Little can ACTUALLY develop into a thousand yard guy (not saying he will by the way) then we need Massa to pick up about 50 yards a game and Robiskie to take about 30 ... or Hillis or Watson or Moore ... the point is that one legitimate receiver is going to make everyone else look a LOT better...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
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Mitchell please no more end-arounds with this guy.
What was your problem with the one carry he had for 9 yards?
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Quote:
Mo' Massaquoi, in 2009, 34, 624, 18.4 ... 3 tds
Mo' Massaquoi, in 2010, 36, 483, 13.4 ... 2 tds
Cribbs, in 2009, 20, 135, 6.8 .... 1 td
Cribbs in 2010, 23, 292, 12.7 .... 1 td
Robiskie, 2009, 7 106, 15.1 .... 0 tds
Robiskie, 2010, 29, 310, 10.7 ..... 3 tds
Stuckey, 2009 19, 198 10.4 .... 1 td
Stuckey, 2010, 40, 310 8.7 .... 0 tds
Just for arguments sake, here are some other wideouts in their first 2 years from the Browns return in 99, , It may be the argument I'm saying is I don't like Robiskie as the #1 guy and if you think he is the best receiver on this team, then where does it show?
in '99 the team had 19 passing td's R= first year
Kevin Johnson 1999 R 66, 986, 14.9 ... 8 tds
Kevin Johnson 2000 57, 669, 11.7 ... 0 tds
Kevin Johnson 2001 84 1097 13.1 ... 9 tds
Kevin Johnson, 2002, 67 703, 10.5 ... 4 tds
Kevin Johnson, 2003, 41 381, 9.3 .... 2 tds
in 2000 the team had only 9 passing tds :
Darrin Chivarini 1999 R, 44, 487, 11.1 4 tds
Darrin Chivarini 2000, 8, 68, 8.5, 1 td
Dennis Northcutt, 2000 R, 39, 422, 10.8, ...0 tds
Dennis Northcutt, 2001, 18, 211, 11.7, ...0 tds
Dennis Northcutt, 2002, 38, 601 15.8, ...5 tds + 3 1 rushing 2 returning
Dennis Northcutt, 2003, 62, 729, 11.8 .... 2 tds
in 2001 the team had 18 passing tds.
Quincy Morgan 2001 R, 30 432 14.4, ....2 tds
Quincy Morgan 2002 56, 964, 17.2 ....7 tds
Quincy Morgan 2003 38, 516 13.6 .... 3 tds
in 2002 the team had 27 passing tds.
Andre Davis 2002 R, 37, 420 11.4 ....6 tds
Andre Davis 2003, 40, 576 14.4 ....5 tds
in 2003 the team had 17 passing tds.
JuJuan Dawson in 2001, 22, 281, 12.8 1 td
David Patton, in 2000, 38, 546, 14.4, 1 td
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,545 |
He played a lot against Ohio State in college. He was always a pesky guy who caught damn near everything thrown his way.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,639
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 34,639 |
I read them when they get long... I figure so many posts must have substance. I even read your posts. Guess I'm not so smart... 
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,416
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,416 |
NTY Oldcold
Ya'll go on and keep ignoring Carlton in your posts. But I'm telling you to look out for him this season. If the kid can learn the system before the season starts he is going to make some noise.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Do We Finally Have A Legit WR
Corps?
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