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and their record was.... ?
The Bengals have a .350 winning percentage in the past 20 years, and have made the playoff twice.
The Cleveland Browns - WE KNOW QUARTERBACKS ( Look at how many we've had ... )
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I don't understand what your point is...
The Lions and Bengals sucked because they drafted horribly, not because they didn't sign FAs...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The team I just listed went 11-5 and won the divison, and were a favorite in the AFC before a Carson Palmer knee injury.
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My point is, the one season the Browns did go the massive Free Agent signing route, they did earn a playoff appearence, which is more than the other 10 years of "building through the draft" has done.
I love the way the draft seems to have gone the past 2 years, but I think we have all gotten tired of 5 - 11 and would love to see the FO do more than stand pat and build thru the draft. At some point we have to stop blaming the coach and look at the players the coach has to work with.
NIce post. yes we have had two decent drafts YET in order to field a product, yes this is ENTERTAINMENT you have to at least tend to some MINIMUM requirements the Front office must do the minimum.
lacking a RT and a thin oline and having THREE QBS in Walking boots last year said EXTREME measures were needed to upgrade this unit, yet the front office told our besieged QBs the equivalent of ...tough..or Duck. we did almost nothing,,we lost a valuable backup and got a guy shoved out the door in St. Louis.
If you have the WORST set of WRS in the NFL and promise your QB weapons you are expected to give him more than one more rookie. Where is that veteran the young receivers can learn from? You expect your young QB to scramble until someone gets open or expect teams NOT to stack 9 in the box vs hillis?
If you have a horribly thin defensive backfield you MUST generate some sort of pass rush. we did next to nothing here making the defense and prospect of even competing extremely unlikely.
The front office basically put a young QB and a rookie coach at risk of losing the confidence of their young players.
Mangini/Ryan had the team playing their hearts out for them, yet the front office elected to start over and should be sued for non support in this free agency. brown bags by November. I feels so bad for Hillis and Colt. If we go 3 -13 the front office may not get a year three themselves.
Last edited by akronjoe; 08/02/11 03:00 PM.
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Sigh... Don't even know why I'm trying... Quote:
NIce post. yes we have ad two decent drafts YET in order to field a product, yes this is ENTERTAINMENT you have to at least tend to some MINIMUM requirements.
It's week 2 of FA, people are still going to be cut... Calm down...
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lacking a RT and a thin oline and having THREE QBS in Walking boot said EXTREME measures were need yet the front office told our besieged QBs...tough..or Duck. we did almost nothing,,we lost a valuable backup and got a guy shoved out the door in St. Louis.
Tony Pashos, our STARTING RIGHT TACKLE, got hurt last year, and as far as I know is ok this year... And everything I've read on Greco says he's got potential, but STL had a logjam at Guard...
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If you have a horribly thin defensive backfield you MUST generate some sort of pass rush. we did next to nothing here making the defense and prospect of even competing extremely unlikely.
So we didn't draft two D-Linemen in the first two rounds? With also retaining Mitchell who's a more natural 4-3 DE?
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The front office basically put a young QB and a rookie coach at risk of losing the confidence of young players.
I'm pretty sure everyone on the team is aware of how we're going about building this team...
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Mangini/Ryan had the team playing their hearts out for them, yet the front office elected to start over and should be sued for non support in this free agency. brown bags by November. I feels so bad for Hillis and Colt. If we go 3 -13 the front office may not get a year three themselves.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The Packers briought in Charles Woodsen in 2006. That was after a 4-12 year in 2005. They went 8-8 in 2006 but rebounded in 2007 (13 wins), 2008 (6 wins), 2009 (11 wins) & 2010 (10 wins).
One FA,, hell man, that falls inline with what the Browns are doing.. I mean, this year, there wasn't a splash.. No Woodson type guy, but Woodson isn't the sole reason they showed success.
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j/c
there are still plenty of quality FAs out there. and these guys should be cheaper than most of the ones that already signed.
Dashon Goldson, FS
Carlos Rogers, CB
Cliff Avril, DE (RFA - so probably won't be any less expensive)
etc.
#gmstrong
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Sigh... Don't even know why I'm trying...
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NIce post. yes we have ad two decent drafts YET in order to field a product, yes this is ENTERTAINMENT you have to at least tend to some MINIMUM requirements.
It's week 2 of FA, people are still going to be cut... Calm down...
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lacking a RT and a thin oline and having THREE QBS in Walking boot said EXTREME measures were need yet the front office told our besieged QBs...tough..or Duck. we did almost nothing,,we lost a valuable backup and got a guy shoved out the door in St. Louis.
Tony Pashos, our STARTING RIGHT TACKLE, got hurt last year, and as far as I know is ok this year... And everything I've read on Greco says he's got potential, but STL had a logjam at Guard...
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If you have a horribly thin defensive backfield you MUST generate some sort of pass rush. we did next to nothing here making the defense and prospect of even competing extremely unlikely.
So we didn't draft two D-Linemen in the first two rounds? With also retaining Mitchell who's a more natural 4-3 DE?
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The front office basically put a young QB and a rookie coach at risk of losing the confidence of young players.
I'm pretty sure everyone on the team is aware of how we're going about building this team...
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Mangini/Ryan had the team playing their hearts out for them, yet the front office elected to start over and should be sued for non support in this free agency. brown bags by November. I feels so bad for Hillis and Colt. If we go 3 -13 the front office may not get a year three themselves.
Yes free agency is not over it just SEEMS like it never started for the Browns who seem content to go 3-13
Tony Pashos Injured the last three years hardly seems like any answer unless John St. Claire is the bar you set.
Yes we have two ROOKIE dlineman yet what else of note have we added then a couple of our free agents that rarely saw the field. Gives me chills those signings do.
There is a minimum you at least owe the fans and other players: a fighting chance to compete. I am saving my money Like Lerner and not ordering Sunday Ticket this year to watch the Browns since they are waiting till 2013 when Lerner MUST spend his $$$.
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Tony Pashos Injured the last three years hardly seems like any answer unless John St. Claire is the bar you set.
explain something to me Joe.. you constantly harp on this management as being SOS (stuck on stupid) for things like cutting Rogers... and you constantly nag nag nag on keeping Pashos.
You aren't even close to consistent. Pashos has indeed been injured the last 2 years.. no question. and you nag about it.. But you say we should have kept Rogers who has also been injured for the last two seasons.
Pashos trys to get out there, he's in camp, he practices.. Rogers doged it all the time. Sat all through last years camp riding a stationary bike.
Pashos works, Rogers sits.. And you wanted us to keep a lazy bum over a guy that works at getting better.
#GMSTRONG
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you could look at it that way, or you could look at one guy played and at times played very well, and the other guy could only tape himself together for one game.
As you know, DT and OT are very different positions. DT is a rotational position where you aren't expected to go every snap. Even if Rogers was limited with injuries, even if he doesn't practice, he would still be valuable to the team to swap in for Taylor or Rubin on 3rd and 4+. A Shaun Rogers in a 4-3 playing 20-25 snaps a game is a scary, scary thing. He can make a big difference there.
Pashos didn't even keep himself in playing condition for a quarter of a season last year and was only able to start a single game the season before that. OL is a position where you're expected to play every snap because continuity, communication, and trust are so important across the line.
There's a difference between "relying" on a rotational player and someone who needs to be there every snap. Apples and oranges IMO. Not to mention the huge talent gap between Pashos and Rogers.
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Missing the point., ,
If you are going to complain about one guy being cut and the other not being cut, and basically, they have the same problem (staying healthy enough to play) then it's just silly cry baby action.
I understand the differences.. But keep in mind, both players are highly regarded in terms of what they bring to the table when able. I'll give you that Rogers is moreso. But still, they both are quality players at thier respective positions "when healthy"
The difference here is that Pashos isn't a lazy guy.. I'm not sure you can even remotely say that about Rogers.. Pashos isn't a cry baby because the new coach didn't say hello to him at some sports function. Rogers on the other hand....well, you get my drift.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I am saving my money Like Lerner and not ordering Sunday Ticket this year to watch the Browns since they are waiting till 2013 when Lerner MUST spend his $$$.
you make a few decent points, but always seem to undermine yourself with comments like this one.
we had the #3 payroll in the NFL last year. we went 5-11. Lerner is willing to pay coaches to go away when they are not working out. our facilities are pristine and by all accounts Lerner's checkbook is and always has been wide-open. yet, you continue to insist that Lerner is a cheap mizer that refuses to spend.
for whatever reason, our FO has decided not to dip into FA. there is still time to grab a few good guys that are still out there, but it's unlikely for anything team-changing at this point.
you can disagree with that plan, but please don't blame Lerner being cheap as it hasn't been true and I doubt many (any?) believe it has suddenly become true.
#gmstrong
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Your point is that injury history consideration should be the same regardless of position. If fighting injuries isn't a good reason to dump one guy, it shouldn't be a reason to lose faith in another. I disagree, for the situational v. every-down reasons stated above.
Your other point is that you think attitude and willingness to work should be an important factor, while I think that performance on the field overshadows that.
I'm not missing the point. I'm not a crybaby. I just disagree with you.
*edit -- also, we're talking about cutting Rogers (not even using him situationally) vs. not acquiring a strong backup plan for/upgrade over Pashos. Nobody is against keeping Pashos for depth. Again, apples and oranges.*
Last edited by CleveSteve; 08/04/11 10:09 AM.
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Pashos works, Rogers sits.. And you wanted us to keep a lazy bum over a guy that works at getting better.
There's an important difference between them that you're overlooking. Rogers has game changing talent, and Pashos only hope to make a game changing play is to whiff on a block and have our QB get injured. You deal with a little more from a guy with the talent than you do from the guy who doesn't.
edit: CleveSteve beat me to it
Last edited by Mattack; 08/04/11 11:14 AM.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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you could look at it that way, or you could look at one guy played and at times played very well, and the other guy could only tape himself together for one game.
As you know, DT and OT are very different positions. DT is a rotational position where you aren't expected to go every snap. Even if Rogers was limited with injuries, even if he doesn't practice, he would still be valuable to the team to swap in for Taylor or Rubin on 3rd and 4+. A Shaun Rogers in a 4-3 playing 20-25 snaps a game is a scary, scary thing. He can make a big difference there.
Pashos didn't even keep himself in playing condition for a quarter of a season last year and was only able to start a single game the season before that. OL is a position where you're expected to play every snap because continuity, communication, and trust are so important across the line.
There's a difference between "relying" on a rotational player and someone who needs to be there every snap. Apples and oranges IMO. Not to mention the huge talent gap between Pashos and Rogers.
And you can't keep a guy as a rotational player and pay him what Rogers was making. Especially for the lack of effort he put in. he had a history of being lazy, and he was here as well after his 1st year.
Pashos is very injury prone, and he very well may get injured again, but he is making way less than Rogers, and at least attempts to work out and get better.
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I'm not missing the point. I'm not a crybaby. I just disagree with you.
I was referring to Akron Joe with the Crybaby remark,, I know you aren't...
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*edit -- also, we're talking about cutting Rogers (not even using him situationally) vs. not acquiring a strong backup plan for/upgrade over Pashos. Nobody is against keeping Pashos for depth. Again, apples and oranges.
I really see your point, I just think if a guy can't play when you need him then what's the difference if it's situational or not.. When you need him and he can't go, then it just doesn't matter at all.
Putting that away for a moment, I was speaking to Joe regarding his hatrid for the Management of this club.. (not just this regime, but every regime we've had since 99)
Cutting one player that can't play,, he's upset about.. Not cutting a player that can't play,, he's upset about...,
You know, it just occured to me, no matter what the browns do, he's upset about it.
Now he says not going to buy a sunday ticket....
Yuppers,,, we have a real fan there.
#GMSTRONG
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I'm not too mad that we haven't made gigantic splashes. If you look at the trend in this league, that doesn't ever work. This isn't major league baseball.
The teams who win super bowls make smart signings that don't grab headlines.
I think a quick fix is not going to save this team. We've seen that road before and it didn't work. I honestly thought 2008 was going to be a year where we really did some damage. We did but it was to ourselves (and the Giants)
I'm in favor of signing young guys who still have promise in this league, and we've actually done that already with Bjax and Young. Both guys still have a ceiling to be better, and both don't have a ton of miles logged. If nothing else those are both great depth moves.
I know that it's extremely hard to sell the fan base on being patient, especially when we have been told that so many times, but it's not fair to Mike Holmgren, Tom Heckert, and coach Shurmur to demand that we go away from the plan because we want to win now. That is so hard to sell on a fan base that has seen garbage for the last decade, but I'm firm that it's the right thing to do.
You don't get away with smoke and mirrors in the AFC north. You just don't. We almost did in 2007. If we were in the NFC west, i'd be more about the splash signings, because that could make a difference.
You have to do it right in the AFCN because the 2 teams ahead if you are doing it right, and have done it right.
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Quote:
I'm not too mad that we haven't made gigantic splashes. If you look at the trend in this league, that doesn't ever work. This isn't major league baseball.
The teams who win super bowls make smart signings that don't grab headlines.
I think a quick fix is not going to save this team. We've seen that road before and it didn't work. I honestly thought 2008 was going to be a year where we really did some damage. We did but it was to ourselves (and the Giants)
I'm in favor of signing young guys who still have promise in this league, and we've actually done that already with Bjax and Young. Both guys still have a ceiling to be better, and both don't have a ton of miles logged. If nothing else those are both great depth moves.
I know that it's extremely hard to sell the fan base on being patient, especially when we have been told that so many times, but it's not fair to Mike Holmgren, Tom Heckert, and coach Shurmur to demand that we go away from the plan because we want to win now. That is so hard to sell on a fan base that has seen garbage for the last decade, but I'm firm that it's the right thing to do.
You don't get away with smoke and mirrors in the AFC north. You just don't. We almost did in 2007. If we were in the NFC west, i'd be more about the splash signings, because that could make a difference.
You have to do it right in the AFCN because the 2 teams ahead if you are doing it right, and have done it right.
this 
#GMSTRONG
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Quote:
Tony Pashos Injured the last three years hardly seems like any answer unless John St. Claire is the bar you set.
explain something to me Joe.. you constantly harp on this management as being SOS (stuck on stupid) for things like cutting Rogers... and you constantly nag nag nag on keeping Pashos.
You aren't even close to consistent. Pashos has indeed been injured the last 2 years.. no question. and you nag about it.. But you say we should have kept Rogers who has also been injured for the last two seasons.
Pashos trys to get out there, he's in camp, he practices.. Rogers doged it all the time. Sat all through last years camp riding a stationary bike.
Pashos works, Rogers sits.. And you wanted us to keep a lazy bum over a guy that works at getting better.
You are correct. the BIG difference was that Rogers, against the advice of his agent pushed himself to play on Sundays, and while he was not on level with his previous form he played. he made some big plays. he blocked field goals. we are so thin on Dline and so far UNDER the cap we could have gambled and kept him. now another year removed from the achilles suffered in 09( pro football talk also said that was the nature of the severe injury even though "official word" was an ankle injury.
Calling a man fighting to stay on the field pushing his 350 bs vs other large men a lazy bum when HE struggles to play through injuries vs. mr hot tub whirlpool bath is an easy pick. pashos has never been more than average and was dumped for his below average play and propensity for injury from his last two offensive line starved teams. meanwhile we get to watch Rogers make big plays for the saints.
again I stand by the assessment. Further it is real strange how a team can have two solid drafts yet picks up free agent bums with consistency.
Last edited by akronjoe; 08/05/11 12:44 PM.
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WOW,, I gotta know, what was I correct about?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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You are correct. the BIG difference was that Rogers, against the advice of his agent pushed himself to play on Sundays, and while he was not on level with his previous form he played.
akjo...against the advice of HIS AGENT?
Is Rogers agent a team trainer or a doctor for the Browns?
Against the advice of his agent is absolutely, meaningless.
Rogers was a great talent, capable of giving a Pro Bowl performance, when he felt like putting out. Rogers problem was motivation, or a lack of self motivation to push himself to be the best.
Shaun Rogers could have been the best defensive lineman in the NFL if he just had a work ethic equal to his talent...but he didn't. Roger's liked playing for Crennel but did not like Mangini and his play on the field along with his practice effort reflected his attitude.
Last year, it was embarrassing to watch Rogers go in for a play or two, then ask to be taken out, sucking wind, because he was not in shape.
I fully expect Rogers to play better for the Saints than he did for the Browns his last two seasons here. Rogers signed a one year deal with the Saints, which means he must "put out" if he wants to continue with the Saints.
I'm sure some Browns fans who are also fans of Shaun Rogers, will be posting about the great talent the Browns front office let walk away, should Rogers have a decent year. But Mangini could not force Rogers have the incentive, desire or drive to be the best..that had to come from Rogers.
Allowing Rogers go was the best option, because Rogers did not want to play in Cleveland another year.
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WOW,, I gotta know, what was I correct about?
Don't you know, I think EVERYTHING.
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Calling a man fighting to stay on the field pushing his 350 bs vs other large men a lazy bum when HE struggles to play through injuries vs. mr hot tub whirlpool bath is an easy pick. pashos has never been more than average and was dumped for his below average play and propensity for injury from his last two offensive line starved teams. meanwhile we get to watch Rogers make big plays for the saints
Much the way Rogers was dumped by two defensive line starved units in Detroit and Cleveland. Sounds right to me. Rogers was the laziest player on the team. He played and practiced when he felt like it. The guy threw a hissy fit for Mangini not saying Hi to him and wanted to be traded. Another player that felt entitled and didn't feel he had to earn anything with hard work or practice. Glad he is gone. Wish him luck.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Rogers was a player known for making big plays, but as his conditioning and abilities diminished so did the frequency of big plays. He became a distraction by refusing to fully participate, undermining the coaching staff and presumably, team unity. I know I would be very resentful of a teammate who half-heartedly rode a stationary bike on the sidelines while I ran gassers after two-a-days, or who walked disciplinary laps in open defiance of the coach, or who did not have the conditioning to stay on the field for two plays in a row in games we were busting our tails to win. He simply was no longer good enough to be such a huge pain in the butt.
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Rogers was a player known for making big plays, but as his conditioning and abilities diminished so did the frequency of big plays. He became a distraction by refusing to fully participate, undermining the coaching staff and presumably, team unity. I know I would be very resentful of a teammate who half-heartedly rode a stationary bike on the sidelines while I ran gassers after two-a-days, or who walked disciplinary laps in open defiance of the coach, or who did not have the conditioning to stay on the field for two plays in a row in games we were busting our tails to win. He simply was no longer good enough to be such a huge pain in the butt.
Well put Dave.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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WOW,, I gotta know, what was I correct about?
Don't you know, I think EVERYTHING.
Bout damn time, I've been waiting for 59 years to be right about everything....
#GMSTRONG
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i totally agree about Rogers and the Saints, he HAS to play like he can.
To back up my thoughts before, I love what the saints have done. The Rogers signing, parting ways with Reggie Bush, and instead bringing a guy like Darren Sproles in who i think is going to be a wonderful fit. These aren't the biggest headline making moves but they are very very smart. The NFC south is going be one of the best divisions in football but I think the Saints are going to be frontrunning that division.
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