|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
A year after throwing 16 tds and 16 ints
He improved?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
2008 in NE - 3700 yards 21 tds 11 ints 10-5 as a starter
2009 in KC - 2900 yards 16 tds 16 ints 4-11 as a starter
That first year in KC was with Jamaal Charles running for 1100 yards.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
So he does good 2/3 years he starts but that one average year means he isn't good?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
Cassel is at best a decent QB. He does great against bad teams and then gets dominated by the good ones.
Look at his game log last year. 17 of his 27 tds came against SF, Hou, Den, Sea, and Ten. Not exactly Murders row there.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
Cassel is at best a decent QB.
You have proven my point.
Cassel has ability it wasn't just the system
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
I'm not sure I understand what your saying?
When you exchange Brady for a decent QB, you get similar numbers? Not sure how that proves your point.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what your saying?
When you exchange Brady for a decent QB, you get similar numbers? Not sure how that proves your point.
You have NO way to prove that Cassel is or is not a franchise QB.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
I know that.
Anyway back to the topic at hand. I don't believe you can put a QB not on or just under Peyton's level and have anywhere hear the success that he has.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317 |
Quote:
Quote:
hit on a few other draft picks to give him some help.
Peyton Manning came into the league on a team that already had Marshall Faulk and Marvin Harrison...
So you're saying that Marvin Harrison and Marshall Faulk weren't hits in the draft that gave Manning some help? I'm not sure I follow your logic here.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317 |
We've seen what happens to the Colts when Manning doesn't play and we've seen what happens to the Patriots when Brady doesn't play. That to me means more than anything else.
As for the "he has more rings" argument for why an individual is better, its the only straw they have to grasp. If it were the NBA that argument would have some merit as a superstar can win games by themselves, but in the NFL its a team effort all the way around. Brady fanboys will write off defense being equally important to superbowl victories because its the only way can even have an argument, but teams like the Steelers, Ravens, Bucs, Patriots, etc who have won the super bowl this past decade have all either had great teams overall or great defenses and an average offense. Hell, even the year the Colts won the superbowl, that year they had a good defense.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
We've seen what happens to the Colts when Manning doesn't play
When has manning not played besides being taken out for garbage time?
Quote:
If it were the NBA that argument would have some merit as a superstar can win games by themselves,
they don't win championships
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Manning rarely comes out of a game.
In the rare instances that he sat over the past half decade or so .... Jim Sorgi completed 63% of his passes for 6 TDs and 1 INT over 6 seasons.
Not exactly flailing helplessly in his absence.
Last year Manning threw every single pass for the Colts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317 |
Sorry, I forgot Jim Sorgi was awesome. He sure lit it up that time we needed to get into the playoffs...
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
The Colts also went 2-3 in the games Sorgi played significant time.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
Quote:
The Colts also went 2-3 in the games Sorgi played significant time.
Odds are the colts rested other starters as well
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,317 |
Quote:
If you are of the persuasion that you judge a QB solely by team performance, then Otto Graham is the best. You also have no critical thinking skills.
To me, the 2 best are Marino and Manning.
Quoting someone from another board where this discussion is also taking place, I think he summed it up pretty well.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 17,284 |
I wonder if that poster thinks LeBron will be better than MJ if he puts up better stats.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
It's not about the stats. Peyton leads his offense better than Brady does. The only argument that people have that say Brady is better is the SBs. And as someone said earlier, that is completely discounting the fact that it takes a team to win a SB, not just one player.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
Ill chime in. I dont know how i feel, and i think that Brady is better because he has had more success overall...
Which NFL qb right now has the most TD passes in a season? thats brady.
In addition to the SBs, i think he also has a higher winning percentage, less turnovers (per game) and seems to be more clutch (i think he has more late game TD drives and less game ending INTs)...
For all of the good that Manning is, he has come up ordinary in more playoff/crunch time instances than Brady has i think...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
Which NFL qb right now has the most TD passes in a season? thats brady.
Brady had 50 in a season. Manning had 49. I wouldn't use that as a definitive argument.
Brady has a the edge in TD/INT ratio. Manning has the edge in TD/start (even discounting Brady's start when he got put out for the season in the first quarter, and considering that even in games where Manning is rested, he's started the game...208 consecutive, actually).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
I think Manning was the best QB in the NFL today, his prime was something around 3 or 4 years ago, or before, But
I don't think Manning would dominate other qb's head to head, they way some qb's from the past would dominate other qb's. for instance
There were a couple years in the 80's when Because Joe Montana was on the 49ers, it didn't matter what any TEAM did.
No team could beat that qb. No T E A M could beat that QB if he was motivated,
I just don't see anyone that dominant today, Manning is the closest, But
Marino was as good as Manning, Aikman was, Kosar was , Esiason was, and Elway was , when he wasn't throwing a 4 picks in a super bowl!
Those Bronco's still have never won a super bowl when the Browns were in existence!
All , I mean All of those Qbs were better than the best Qb's today, and time after time, head to head , without One miss, Montana was always the better QB vs them on the field.
That is why I say Montana is the Best of my time, and in times before that, back before 1981 the game was different so comparisions from before 1981 and after are like comparing
dirt bike racing and street motorcycle racing.
I wish I could have seen Peyton Manning play against Jim Kelly, or Dan Marino in their prime, because I think they would have probably been some good games.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
In the end, they are both sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Famers.
Over the course of 13 years as a starter, Manning's average year is 4217 yards, 30 TDs, and 15 INT.
In 10 years as a starter, Brady's average year is 3474 yards, 26 TDs and 10 INTs.
I wish we had either one of them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,210 |
Quote:
Which NFL qb right now has the most TD passes in a season? thats brady.
Peyton threw 49 tds in 15 games and then threw 2 passes in the 16th game. Brady threw 48 tds in 15 games and then threw 42 passes in the 16th game and got the 2 tds he needed.
Quote:
In addition to the SBs, i think he also has a higher winning percentage, less turnovers (per game)
Peyton averages 1.23 int or fumbles per game. Brady averages 1.21 int or fumbles per game. Peyton is 141-61 or 69.8% WP Brady is 77.6% WP. Of course winning percentage of a QB doesn't take into account the rest of the team.
Quote:
i think he has more late game TD drives and less game ending INTs)...
According to pro-football-reference.com Peyton has 35 4th Q comebacks and 46 game winning drives and Brady has 23 4th Q comebacks and 32 game winning drives.
I don't know of anywhere you can find stats on late game ints.
Last edited by 214dawg; 08/08/11 12:52 AM.
LIbertatem Defendimus!!
2010 Dawgtalkers NCAA Bracket Challenge Champ!!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you are of the persuasion that you judge a QB solely by team performance, then Otto Graham is the best. You also have no critical thinking skills.
To me, the 2 best are Marino and Manning.
Quoting someone from another board where this discussion is also taking place, I think he summed it up pretty well.
Otto Graham is the best QB of all time.
You can't judge Graham as a QB by taking him out of his era and putting him into the modern era at QB. The QB position was a completely different job back then and he did it better than anyone.
You can go back to that board and tell that poster that his "critical thinking skills" need to work on more than 1 variable at a time 
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
I'm not sure I understand what your saying?
When you exchange Brady for a decent QB, you get similar numbers? Not sure how that proves your point.
You get similar numbers?
Cassel had in that 11-5 year 3,693 yards, 21 TD's and 11 INT's.
The two years that Tom Brady had a weapon like Randy Moss (a luxary that Matt Cassel had), Tom Brady had ...
4,806 yards, 50 TD's and 8 INT's in 2007.
Then in 2009, coming off an injury, 4,398 yards, 28 TD's and 13 INT's.
Patriots went 26-6 in those two years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
I wonder if that poster thinks LeBron will be better than MJ if he puts up better stats.
I wonder if you think Robert Horry is better than MJ because he has more rings.  
Gawd, I HATE that argument ... mostly because I hear it all the time being nearby the LA sports radio market. "Kobe is as great as MJ because he's won the same number of rings". Championships are a measure of team performance ... not personal greatness.
There's no way I'm taking Big Ben over Peyton Manning, because he's won one more Super Bowl. It shouldn't even be in the discussion. Now, if you want to compare how player A did versus player B while playing in a championship/playoff game, then that's a much better point of comparision.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
No. Championships aren't ALL of it.
But, when you take two guys who have VERY similar numbers.
***Look at the per game numbers I posted*** Manning is not much better statistically (Brady even has the higher QB rating).
Then you add the fact that one of those guys has THREE TIMES the rings, then yeah, the rings become an argument.
It's not like we're talking about Jordan's 30 points per game vs. Robert Horry's 7 points per game here.
So that's a terrible argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
I'll take Brady. I think he's more efficient.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
But, when you take two guys who have VERY similar numbers.
***Look at the per game numbers I posted*** Manning is not much better statistically (Brady even has the higher QB rating).
Then you add the fact that one of those guys has THREE TIMES the rings, then yeah, the rings become an argument.
No it doesn't ... it just means his team is better. Championships shouldn't even be in the argument ... unless the guy is single-handedly carrying a team to a championship.
You're already statistically saying that they're both pretty much the same guy. If you put Peyton Manning on the same Patriots teams that Brady played for in the 2000's, he likely wins 3 Super Bowls as well. Does that mean Peyton's suddenly a much better player? No, it means he played on a better overall team.
I put number of Championships right up there with Win-Losses as a useless stat. Now if you want to compare how one did in crunch-time versus another guy (and I actually think Brady is better here), it's a much more valid argument.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
I agree that it's important to break down key matchups (for instance, why did Peyton lose 7/11 in the first playoff game the Colts played? did he play poorly, or did the defense falter?)
however, you can't dismiss championships or wins/losses either (taken on a more broad stroke). QB's don't completely control the outcome of a game, but they control it more than any other position. Having some accountability in terms of historical comparisons is important.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,391 |
j/c
The numbers are very close between Manning and Brady and it's a good argument. I think the measuring stick is to remove either QB from their team and how would the offense perform:
Well, remove Brady from the Pats and an unproven Cassell takes them to 11-5 but I don't have the offensive stats in front of me to know how the entire offense did that year. I do know that from a FFL perspective, Brady has 490 pts in his ridiculous 2007 and Cassell had 290 in 2008. Even with a 41% drop off in QB pts, the team only lost 31% more games in 2008. So it could be argued that the Pats have a better overall team and system that can overcome worsened QB play. (Lots of other variables into all this too.)
Take Manning from the Colts? Well, we haven't really seen it in real game situations so we can only go by predictions. I have a hard time believing that the Colts wouldn't become instant bottom feeders (or at least in the bottom 1/3 of the league) with Manning out for an entire season like Brady was in 2008.
Take Kobe from the Lakers and that's still a playoff caliber team. Take LeBron from the Cavs and...well...we know how that worked out.
Both are truly fantastic QBs. I might give the slight nod to Manning just on how he operates that no-huddle offense with direction and command unlike I've ever seen from a QB on the field. But it's like a 50.1% to 49.9% comparison.
Also, if you take personality into consideration, I like Manning better. He seems like more of a funny, regular guy and Brady seems a bit more...I don't know...more smug? Just perception. Off camera, who knows? Maybe it's not like that at all.
------------------------------
*In Baker we trust*
-------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,643 |
Quote:
It's not about the stats. Peyton leads his offense better than Brady does. The only argument that people have that say Brady is better is the SBs. And as someone said earlier, that is completely discounting the fact that it takes a team to win a SB, not just one player.
This.
Peyton gets my vote as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
|
OP
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
If you put Peyton Manning on the same Patriots teams that Brady played for in the 2000's, he likely wins 3 Super Bowls as well.
If you put Tom Brady with weapons like Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeny, and being protected by Tarik Glenn and Jeff Saturday...
See where I'm going here?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you put Peyton Manning on the same Patriots teams that Brady played for in the 2000's, he likely wins 3 Super Bowls as well.
If you put Tom Brady with weapons like Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeny, and being protected by Tarik Glenn and Jeff Saturday...
See where I'm going here?
Why do people keep bring up Faulk like Manning had him for a long time? They were together for a year, Peytons ROOKIE year...
Edgerin James - Corey Dillon, Kevin Faulk
Marvin Harrison - Randy Moss
Reggie Wayne - Deion Branch
Tarik Glenn - Matt Light
...Dwight Freeney? Really? ...Really? What about Bob Sanders?
How about Richard Seymore, Vincent Wilfork, Tedy Bruschi, Willie McGinest, Mike Vrabel, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy...?
Is everyones argument that Manning only puts up good numbers BECAUSE he has talent on offense? Because that's just rediculous...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 13,882 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you put Peyton Manning on the same Patriots teams that Brady played for in the 2000's, he likely wins 3 Super Bowls as well.
If you put Tom Brady with weapons like Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Dwight Freeny, and being protected by Tarik Glenn and Jeff Saturday...
See where I'm going here?
I'm not picking on you....just making a comment about the debate of "switching the QB's" and presuming similar or dissimilar output.
You can't do that....because they're different systems, different stadiums, different talent, different personalities and different unseen variables. "Stats are for losers" is one thing....but at least they're real. Estimated prodcution of mythical teams is even worse.
The only thing that can really be argued is....what actually happened. And Brady has played better in the playoffs. When his team needed a play near the end of a postseason game, Brady has come through more than Manning. To me, that's how you break the tie of them being "about the same in most statistical categories".
If it wasn't for the Giants D-line, which should have shared the 2007 SB MVP trophy, Brady would have torched the Giants and would have been the only QB to go 19-0 (and he'd have three more rings to go along with that). And don't forget the David Tyree miracle catch.
As far as the "Manning didn't have the defensive support Brady did" or "Tom doesn't have the weapons Manning has".....a QB is supposed to make plays regardless of the roster. That's why they're the highest paid guy on the field. Didn't a poster here have a famous quote from Bernie regarding this philosophy in their sig? Something along the lines of, "you're paid to make plays, you're the QB, make it happen....be the difference in the game. No excuses."
So again. Give me Brady (and to think, we drafted Spergyn over him).
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Peyton never lost to Eli in the playoffs. Game.Set.Match.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
Quote:
Peyton never lost to Eli in the playoffs.
Game.Set.Match.
Brady never lost to Chad Pennington.
..Wait whos side am I on?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
Quote:
Peyton never lost to Eli in the playoffs.
Game.Set.Match.
Brady never lost to Chad Pennington.
..Wait whos side am I on?
if you are like me, then you are not on either side except the side to throw in a few snarky comments from time to time.
for instance, since you didn't mention it had to be in the playoffs:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/2006111207...ecap-full-story
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,663
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,663 |
J/C....
Peyton would be my pick. My reasoning is pretty simple. Peyton calls all the plays. He's done this for many many years. The Colts Offensive Coordinator is Peyton for all practical purposes. Even when Manning was hurt, he was on the sidelines calling the shots. His adjustments at the line are legendary, and his coaches and teammates have all lauded him for his understanding of the system they run and what he can do in counter to great defenses.
Brady is a stud no doubt. He has been on the better TEAM and has won a few more SB rings because of it. I've seen Tom check off a bunch, but not nearly to the extent that I've seen Manning do it.
Either way you can't go wrong. But if I had to pick one, I would have to take Peyton.
KeysDawg
The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. - Carl Sagan
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
I prefer Manning over Brady, but I'm also the kind of person that can debate both sides of an argument to death...
Between me and my brother, whenever one of us would have an opinion on something, the other would take the other side weather we agreed with it or not, just so we could debate it...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Great Debate - Tom Brady vs.
Peyton Manning - Your Opinion?
|
|
