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But overall, they do NOT pay the same or less. The rich still pay more overall.
#gmstrong
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I'm not kicking anyone - other than those that live off the gov't. because "why would I get a job?"
News flash - minimum wage isn't $5 an hour.
News flash. The more we give, the more they take, and trust me, the people I'm talking about relish taking. Work for a living? Why? They have no pride, they have no qualms about sitting at home.
People that are laid off from a job? I have no problem with them getting benefits for a set period of time until they get another job. My problem is with people that have never had a job, and are blatantly exploiting the system. THEY are the ones with the problem, not me.
I am a Christian. Why is there shame on me? Shame on you for being .........well.......I guess you don't get it. Imagine that.
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You don't or can't get it I guess...the welfare mentality is a DIRECT result of American darwinistic dream mindset...it's like the Hippie son in a family full of military people....1 extreme creates the other...both are symptoms
It's a game, both you, being angry at her, and she, answering flipping you the bird, are pawns in this game...getting played brilliantly...both of you direct your anger at each other instead of joining those forces to go up against those who suppress you
#gmstrong
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She is right and you are just morally right and direct your anger at her instead of the "job creators" that don't pay enough in a job to make a living....THAT'S the scandal in this whole mess: how can it be that someone that works 8h a day...no matter what he does...how come such a person can't make a living?
There has always been welfare, ther has always and always will be the lazy welfare bum but what CHANGED is WORK that isn't enough to live on...WORK has to pay off again, that's the END RESULT of DECADES of real wages STAGNATING...don't be mad at the lazy welfare girl, she's right..why should she work for 5$/h and 800$/month? SHE is what PSt advocated for in his "pure capitalism" utopia....a low jobber that is NOT accepting the job leveraging for more...what happens? you have the illegal aliens who do those jobs..and they neither are the problem, they just get exploited, something many welfare guys refuse to do...it's the, often not always of course, morally depraved "job creators" that hire Mexican slaves since their US counterparts are on strike...that's reality
That's what I mean by wealth redistribution...WORK has to pay off again. If a lower income worker barely has more than the welfare guy, BOTH are off bad...why is oyur 1st reaction to wish for the welfare guy to get less? Shame on you if you're Christian, really...shouldn't the 1st reaction be: the guy that works his butt off should get MORE to have a BETTER life than the welfare dude....you act as if the welfare guys are having a great life, newsflash: they don't...they're at the bottom of society...STOP KICKING them...they ARE NOT the problem, just a GROWING SYMPTOM of what's wrong
This paragraph pretty much sums up where we all disagree I think. I guess I was brought up to be a slave to the capitalists in your mind. In my mind I was taught to work hard and that nothing is given to you. And when I say work hard, I don't mean work hard for 40 hours and go home. You need to make opportunities, go the extra mile, do things that are not asked of you - ask for more work, especially doing things you do not know or understand fully. Show you can learn it and be successful, especially when you are younger.
It appears as if you would look at working 60-70 hours per week as being a slave to the capitalists; I looked at it as finding a way to be recognized and making opportunities to advance. Opportunities are made, not given to you. I know you don't think just anyone can do that, but trust me, if I can do it anyone can if they are willing to work hard and take some risks.
And Arch touched on this a bit too - I have no problem helping someone out who has lost their job and is actively looking for a new one. No problem at all. I do have a huge problem helping those who will not help themselves - if that makes me a bad person then so be it.
#gmstrong
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You can bang your head all you want, but according to the IRS, the rich still pay a higher percentage as a group than any other group, and they pay most of the taxes overall. As far as your website, the top 10% rich in the US, as a group make 15.9 times what the bottom 10% poor make. In the UK it's 13.8 time what the bottom 10% make. In the US the top 20%, as a group, make 8.4 times what the bottom 20% poor make. In the UK it's 7.2 times. One big problem with your chart is that the comparisons are all over the place. The US uses a 2007 ratio. It's 1999 for the UK. It's 2000 in Germany. The use 1995 data for Niger.  It's hard to know what's what with such a varied set of data.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Like I said - you don't get it. That's fine. You don't live here. And as for my anger? What anger have I shown? When I get angry, it's obvious. All I have stated is FACT - about 2 separate individuals that have no desire to do anything but scam the system. That makes me angry????  Perhaps you think I'm a "cling to the Bible and guns" sort of guy, huh? Perhaps you think I know not of what I speak. You're sadly mistaken if those are your thoughts. But, you don't seem to have a problem with being wrong. Seriously - my "anger"? 
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That is why I stopped looking at it. I couldn't make heads or tails of it based on the data provided - it made little sense to me and I really don't have the time to figure it out. Oh well, back to feed the capitalist pigs, I've got a project due tomorrow. It even deals with percentages on occasion 
#gmstrong
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She is right and you are just morally right and direct your anger at her instead of the "job creators" that don't pay enough in a job to make a living....THAT'S the scandal in this whole mess: how can it be that someone that works 8h a day...no matter what he does...how come such a person can't make a living?
Right.. it has nothing to do with the fact that she is 21 years old, has 2 children by 2 different fathers, has never developed a marketable skill that she can use to earn a living, has a boyfriend who doesn't appear to have a marketable skill either, apparently has no personal work ethic... but I guess it's "the systems" fault.
So what exactly should some company pay her a reasonable wage to do?
yebat' Putin
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Quote:
She is right and you are just morally right and direct your anger at her instead of the "job creators" that don't pay enough in a job to make a living....THAT'S the scandal in this whole mess: how can it be that someone that works 8h a day...no matter what he does...how come such a person can't make a living?
Right.. it has nothing to do with the fact that she is 21 years old, has 2 children by 2 different fathers, has never developed a marketable skill that she can use to earn a living, has a boyfriend who doesn't appear to have a marketable skill either, apparently has no personal work ethic... but I guess it's "the systems" fault.
So what exactly should some company pay her a reasonable wage to do?
You wanna know what's ironic as heck? My cousin - this boys dad - got him a job at a tool and die shop.
Kid worked hard for about 3 weeks. Then, he quit showing up for work. He was sick. Or, "he didn't have a ride", or, "he had to go to the doctor.". It was always something. The company said "don't come back, you're fired."
After about 6-8 months of not working, the kid finally realized "I'm broke. I can't buy beer or pot." Know what he did? He got a job at Kentucky Fried Chicken.
Sad thing is, the kid had a lot going for him. He's smart. He was athletic. He also didn't graduate high school. He still hasn't gotten his drivers license.
He's a waste - and this is my first cousins son I'm talking about. He is nearly my son's age. He's a drag on society. He has no skills, and his girlfriend is even worse. There is no desire for betterment. There is absolutely no "gotta do it today, cause tomorrow's coming" attitude.
But, yeah, we should tax the people that work more, so that people like him, and her, can live a decent life.
Sorry, but when the ability is there, but the desire is not, it isn't my fault. When his dad kicked him and his pregnant girlfriend out - amazingly, he went and got a job. Imagine that.
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To both you and arch...and ColumbusD somewhat:
1. I already conceeded that there will always be the lazy welfare bum...obv this girl qualifies...your cousin's son though? Not sure, if he isn't dumb maybe he needed some more time...time this system doesn't give anyone, esp. coming from the middle or bottom of society. It's like learning playing poker on the run...he gets good cards to begin with but doesn't know how to cash them in...now that he has a clue about the game he gets dealt crap and his stack is low anyway...seems it's cruel to him...not saying it's "the system" that did him in...but the way you tell it, his "waste" isn't entirely on him only
2. Remember, I never said to give MORE to the welfare guys (I just don't want them to get less)...I want MORE for YOU guys that WORK, so that you don't have to "envy" the welfare guys that make only little less than you for free...WORK has to pay off again...you keep the money mostly in your yountry, strengthening the homeland market (=> demand => jobs)....DECADES of wage stagnation? Europe would lay down work collectively and the "job creators" would lose A LOT of money....thatt's another thing you seem to forget: THEY need YOU as much as YOU need THEM...it works both ways...if you don't work for them, they don't make any profit...that's why those clever bastards pay millions and billions in anti-Union propaganda and do anything they can to hammer their rationale into your brains so that you "compete" with your co-worker instead of solidarize with him
#gmstrong
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See, here's the problem: Work does pay. Laziness should not.
Hell, I grew up poor after my dear old dad decided that he didn't want to be a father any longer. My whole family had to struggle daily to make ends meet. The system was different back then. It wasn't a massive amusement park free ride.
Luckily we had family who could help, and my brothers and I had some great role models in my Uncles, (one of whom was a WWII Pilot and POW) Grandfather, (Who was an orphan, and came to the US from England as a very young man, and who lived through the Great Depression with dignity and honor) and my Great Uncle, who ran his farm well into his 70s, until his knees finally gave out and one had to be replaced. (and that was in the far earlier days of knee joint replacement, and the procedure was much, much further from perfect in those days)
My brothers and I all worked as soon as we could. We were expected to make our grades too. My mother worked, and my brothers and I had to be responsible for ourselves a lot of times. It wasn't torture, it was what it was, and it was what we had to do to make ends meet.
My family, each and every one of us, has worked our asses off. We all own homes. (including my mother, who was left with nothing but responsibility for 3 boys when dear old dad took off) My brothers and I all have careers. Not one of us bemoans what other have earned. We bust ass to make our own lots in life better.
That being said, yes, it does suck when others scam and scheme the system, making money for doing nothing ...... working under the table while collecting benefits from welfare and many, many other programs that provide disincentives for work and effort, and instead reward laziness. Sexual productivity is the only productivity rewarded. Responsibility is discouraged.
It is a horrible system, not only because it costs a ton of money, but because it removes from so many people the desire and capability to know the great feeling that being productive, and standing on your own 2 feet brings. The system dehumanizes people. It is disgusting. The worst part is that it is all done in the name of compassion.
A man who cannot stand on his own must crawl before others. We have too many people forced into a generational cycle of spending their entire lives on their knees. What an abhorrent thing to do to human beings.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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your cousin's son though?
He said that he had a job as a tool and die maker and just flat out stopped going! That is a skill that is well worth learning that he just threw away. Nothing gets my blood boiling like someone throwing away an opportunity at a job that can become a lucrative career.
I'm not sure if it was in this thread or not but WSU_Willie mentioned that a place in Dayton has 55 open positions that they cannot fill. I know that your belief is that they likely are not paying enough but I would look at it as an opportunity if I need the work. It may not pay well now, but if I go and show that I am willing to go the extra mile - hell, just showing up might be considered an extra mile there - I am confident that people will notice and I will be given more responsibility and promotions. I has happened to me time and time again in every job I have had since I was 16 (I am 40 now) - it is not because I am lucky, it is because I work hard and have the desire to succeed at everything I do. Anyone can do that if they put their mind to it - unfortunately we have good portion of our population that are not will to work hard or take pride in their work.
#gmstrong
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Behr Manufacturing in Dayton is the company...starting wage is $11.65 an hour...they can't get people who can read, aren't positive for drug tests, and/or are willing to work on their feet 8 hours per day. The employees working there now are working crazy amounts of overtime. The IUE leaders are warning the company that they need to re-think the OT requirements on the current workers. Maybe the IUE needs to help its union brethren and get some people a job. But why work? If Behr packs up that manufacturing process and moves it out of the country, they will be painted as even more evil...while the lazy keep getting a check. (I am NOT saying all who are on assistance are lazy...but those jobs should be filled immediately with people who can read, stay off drugs and actually show up for work.)
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j/c
We arent going to solve the entitlement spending problem quickly or by doing more of the same. We need to get people off the government teet or keep them from ever getting on it.
I alluded to this in another thread but did not get into the details. The "elephant in the room" if you will.
These women and men who pro-create with no options or desire to provide for themselves and their babies should be the immediate focus.
If you are a female on welfare you MUST see a doctor and have the IUD implant. NO exceptions. If you have only yourself to care for, you have a chance to better yourself. Offer a tubal ligation if desired. You are not forced to take the welfare benefit.
If you are a male on welfare and a record exists showing that you have fathered a child/children and do not care for that child/children, you get a vasectomy. You father a child, YOU take care of it. If you do not, cannot, or will not then you lose the free reign to create another. You are not forced to take the welfare benefit.
STOP the flow of new children into a system that cannot handle a growing population.
Radical idea?...to some I am sure. Like spending cuts, this is an immediate option to reduce the flow of welfare-dependent children.
It allows for more money to be available to help the children already here and gives women a chance to avoid - or get out of - the cycle.
The costs? That must be considered along with the cost of pre and post natal care, the actual delivery, and a lifetime of dependency. I am sure the IUD/tubal ligation/vasectomy will prove to be dramatically less expensive.
There is less money flowing into the system...spending cuts are inevitable...the quickest and surest way to reduce the number of dependent people is to reduce the inflow of new dependent people.
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If you are a female on welfare you MUST see a doctor and have the IUD implant. NO exceptions. If you have only yourself to care for, you have a chance to better yourself. Offer a tubal ligation if desired. You are not forced to take the welfare benefit.
They'll just cry that they have the right to procreate from the rooftops and say the government is holding them down. What they fail to see if that government assistance is not a right, no matter how many people wish it was.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/FUKyw.png) "Don't be burdened by regrets or make your failures an obsession or become embittered or possessed by ruined hopes"
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I've spoken about this solution with my dad before and as cold hearted as it may sound I agree with your premise 100%. My mom taught in Toledo Public Schools for 30 years (just retired last year) and has seen some pretty crazy things to say the least. In her last year, which is what brought my dad and I to discuss basically what you outlined, she had a little boy in her Kindergarten class tell her that his mom was having another baby "so that they could get more money". Absolutely sick.  Django - do you see countries in Europe having this kind of issue? People on welfare with no prospects and no desire to better themselves having 4, 5, even 6 kids? I'm asking because I have no idea - I'm going to guess no. These are kids who are being bred to be on welfare as the parents do not care about them bettering themselves and achieving success through hard work and education. It is really a sad situation as these kids have no chance until the parents, their community, community leaders, and the school system as a whole step up to the plate to turn things around collectively. Just relying in the education system, as many suggest, will not do it.
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Sexual productivity is the only productivity rewarded.
Kinda like the guy I used to work with....he had been working at various restaurants, dishwashing, under-the-table for years.....and claimed to also run his own business as a self-described "distributor."
One day he had to leave after only a couple hours at work cuz his wife was going into labor at the hospital; giving birth to his 16th child........16.........he later told me that he first became a father at 14 years old..
Dude is in his forties and says that his 16 kids are born to 5 different women, yet somehow he has been married to the same woman for the past twenty years...
A real piece of work this cat is.....
We asked him if he had ever considered using a condom and he said that he can't bare the idea of his seed getting trapped in latex---his semen needs to flow freely he said.....
He had a rough time even remembering all his kids names!
He was kinda like Shawn Kemp except he doesn't make near as much money and leaves the state to pick up the tab on his free flowing semen...
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
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Django - do you see countries in Europe having this kind of issue? People on welfare with no prospects and no desire to better themselves having 4, 5, even 6 kids? I'm asking because I have no idea - I'm going to guess no. These are kids who are being bred to be on welfare as the parents do not care about them bettering themselves and achieving success through hard work and education. It is really a sad situation as these kids have no chance until the parents, their community, community leaders, and the school system as a whole step up to the plate to turn things around collectively. Just relying in the education system, as many suggest, will not do it.
It's been a hot topic for years over here...and somewhat still is. That's why I think it's a systemic symptom (not US exclusive)
Welfare spending was cut drastically but still is more than what you hand out....and it's considered too low to live on by most accounts..even some conservatives, who pushed them (but the 1st cuts were made by Dems, they got the foot in the door)
#gmstrong
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Django - do you see countries in Europe having this kind of issue? People on welfare with no prospects and no desire to better themselves having 4, 5, even 6 kids? I'm asking because I have no idea - I'm going to guess no. These are kids who are being bred to be on welfare as the parents do not care about them bettering themselves and achieving success through hard work and education. It is really a sad situation as these kids have no chance until the parents, their community, community leaders, and the school system as a whole step up to the plate to turn things around collectively. Just relying in the education system, as many suggest, will not do it.
It's been a hot topic for years over here...and somewhat still is. That's why I think it's a systemic symptom (not US exclusive)
Welfare spending was cut drastically but still is more than what you hand out....and it's considered too low to live on by most accounts..even some conservatives, who pushed them (but the 1st cuts were made by Dems, they got the foot in the door)
They have democrats in Germany? Or Italy? I forget exactly where it is you are from. I think germany.
But, they have democrats there?
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that's why those clever bastards pay millions and billions in anti-Union propaganda
django, unions, much like socialism, work well when they are small and controllable and everybody buys into it. The "clever bastards" don't have to make up propoganda to make many of the unions in this country look bad. I have nothing against union members, most are honest hardworking folks but the guys that run unions are every bit as drunk with power as the guys they call greedy that run the companies that they negotiate with. It is not until an entire industry, like the auto industry, is about to fail that they will come to the table and offer to make some concessions. It is certainly not a coincidence that industries in this country that require the most government subsidizing and have become among the least profitable and the most outsourced are industries that are dominated by unions. I can show you one story after another of unions being totally unreasonable and putting their membership above the solvency of the company or industry.
Unions bring a ton of inefficiency and if the US is to compete globally the one thing we must be is efficient. They fight modernization because it often means fewer unskilled workers because those tasks are becoming computerized and automated, they fight the flexibility it requires to meet peek demand needs and the normal ebbs and flows in business...
Do you know what LEED is? Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design.. it's a design and construction certification to encourage people to design and build more "green". Most industrialized countries have some form of the same thing and you get points for having more efficient electrical systems and HVAC systems, being closer to bus routes, using recycled materials, etc. Well designing a building to use less water is worth a couple points in the LEED system and a courthouse in Philadelphia Pennsylvania was recently trying to achieve a rating of LEED Silver (one step above normal LEED) and one of the things they did was install these new waterless urinals. They don't flush, they have a wax seal that allows the urine to flow through and then they have a sanitizer spray that automatically cleans them so they don't stink but there is no method of flushing them. Well when these drawings were approved by the city and went to bid the plumbing union in Philly threw a holy fit. Do you know how much less work that meant for plumbers? No fresh water urinal piping in a building that big? So they fought it and they fought it and they rallied and they boycotted. Ultimately they reached a compromise, they allowed the waterless urinals to be installed but in return the plumbers were allowed to run the pipe anyway and cap it off behind the wall. The city spent a bunch of money on this building to run pipe that will never be used because the union demanded it and made threats about pulling off other city jobs.
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