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Yeah, TopDawg is just another stalker of mine
I like your new couch, by the way.
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a virtual "trade up" from our 3rd to ATL's 2nd (since "our" 3rd was used to secure Taylor) and ATL's 4th...we really "lost" value this last draft....looking at just last draft we traded down from 6 to 24 for a 4th and a small trade up from high 3rd to low 2nd...for 2011, we got 1 more player out of this which ended up being Marecic...needless to say, the real benefit of this big trade will come next April
I don't really get what you're saying. You try to say we lost value but you also admitted 1/2 of the value isn't even realized to the 2012 draft...?
I'm not trying to say it was a bad trade at all...I LOVED the trade and still do and was a big Taylor fan anyway...my point was only that just looking at the 2011 draft ONLY (without the 2012 draft picks) we lost some value, as a trade down from 6 to 24 should net more than a 4th and a small trade up from 3rd to 2nd....quantitatively we only gained a late 4th for THIS season, so this trade was a conscious move to reload even heavier THIS upcoming draft and for 2012+...so my point is that short term the trade hasn't impacted much, the real value of this trade is yet to become, but that's obvious...just a reminder....though I agree that Taylor might be as talented as Jones and I considered him a Top 15 talent, esp. because of position value
Taylor was #2 on my wishlist right after Jordan and from the early returns it looks like for the 1st time since our return our GM made a better choice than I would have made...so far Heckert simply did what the Eagles did and do all drafts...pick obvious VALUE, not outsmarting themselves..and I LOVE it...about freaking time
#gmstrong
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i dont think quantitatively is a great way to look at a draft.
Our trade with Atlanta netted us the ability to move up and get 3 guys in Phil Taylor Greg Little and Jason Pinkston we wouldnt have been able to get where we stood. Both of these guys have become starters, and already, decent starters.
Had we stood we couldve taken Taylor but it wouldnt have made much sense at 6, and wouldnt have been available at 24, but.
Look at it qualitatively. From that trade we netted 3 guys that are in our starting lineup because it provided us with the ammo to move up and grab the guys we moved up to get. In addition, we still had that extra pick that we took a WCO FB, who hasnt been 100% efficient, but is still a guy who gets a lot of snaps on this team.
quantitatively seems like a shortsighted way to undervalue our work.
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It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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(as I value DL over WR)
All day long and twice on Sunday  
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i dont think quantitatively is a great way to look at a draft.
Our trade with Atlanta netted us the ability to move up and get 3 guys in Phil Taylor Greg Little and Jason Pinkston we wouldnt have been able to get where we stood. Both of these guys have become starters, and already, decent starters.
Had we stood we couldve taken Taylor but it wouldnt have made much sense at 6, and wouldnt have been available at 24, but.
Look at it qualitatively. From that trade we netted 3 guys that are in our starting lineup because it provided us with the ammo to move up and grab the guys we moved up to get. In addition, we still had that extra pick that we took a WCO FB, who hasnt been 100% efficient, but is still a guy who gets a lot of snaps on this team.
quantitatively seems like a shortsighted way to undervalue our work.
Another excellent post.
Seems to me we're trying to build a ..........wait for it............a.............................................................................................TEAM.
Instead of going whole hog for the "can't miss superstar", that CAN miss. And thereby setting us back another few years.
But, I guess I don't know as much as some people.
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Ok I understand what you are saying I just don't get why.
You can't really "split" the move in pieces or it doesn't make sense.
It would be like saying you "liked" the part where we got the 27th pick overall with the 2nd and 4th but didn't like the part where we gave up the 6th.
In order for any part of the trade to occur you need to have the whole thing so I was just confused as to why.
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@pstu24
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i dont think quantitatively is a great way to look at a draft.
Our trade with Atlanta netted us the ability to move up and get 3 guys in Phil Taylor Greg Little and Jason Pinkston we wouldnt have been able to get where we stood. Both of these guys have become starters, and already, decent starters.
Had we stood we couldve taken Taylor but it wouldnt have made much sense at 6, and wouldnt have been available at 24, but.
Look at it qualitatively. From that trade we netted 3 guys that are in our starting lineup because it provided us with the ammo to move up and grab the guys we moved up to get. In addition, we still had that extra pick that we took a WCO FB, who hasnt been 100% efficient, but is still a guy who gets a lot of snaps on this team.
quantitatively seems like a shortsighted way to undervalue our work.
IIRC we traded our two 6th (we already had before the trade) round picks to move back into the 5th to draft Pinkston.
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Okay...
where did our 6th from ATL go? or, is that a part of this year's draft?
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Okay...
where did our 6th from ATL go? or, is that a part of this year's draft?
I think you just answered your own question 
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we didn't get a sixth... we got:
2011: 1,2,4
2012: 1,4
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we didn't get a sixth... we got:
2011: 1,2,4
2012: 1,4
I never said that we did and was merely pointing out the fact that the Pinkston trade had nothing to do with the trade with Atlanta for the 6th pick. We did trade away two 6th round picks to move back into the 5th to draft Pinkston and those where selections that we already had going into the Draft and not one that we got from the trade.
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yeah, guess i should have clicked on KS's post for the reply... sorry
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Brady Quinn = 50% of Pinkston and as for the ATL trade, I'm not criticizing anything, really....just wanted to remind everyone that we still have to reap the BIG reward of that trade
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Brady Quinn = 50% of Pinkston + Peyton Hillis + late round 2012 draft pick
Brady Quinn is amazing.
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just wanted to remind everyone that we still have to reap the BIG reward of that trade
No that onus falls on Atlanta.
We already might have drafted the best DT in the Draft, throw in Greg Little and another 1st and 4th round pick for a team with Many needs and that will = up to Julio Jones.
Personally I think this year there maybe WR's who are better prospects then Jones. That doesn't mean we will take one with their pick, but stranger things have happened in the Draft
Blackmon 
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we are set to pick later than them as we speak. Go us
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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I'm not going against what you're saying...
But JUST because they're starting doesn't mean they were GREAT drafts,,,
Just goes to show how bad we were to begin with...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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great drafts in context. If you can come from 2 drafts and get 7-9 starters, and some quality depth (guys that could enter the game and youre not gonna think oh crap here we go (ie Ralph Brown, Nolan Carroll for Miami etc.) then youve done well.
Every player from our last 2 drafts is on an active roster. Thats a great draft, better yet, only 2 (Geathers, Asante) are on active rosters that arent Cleveland's, thats terrific.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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ProFootballFocus did a breakdown and it appears that McCoy hardly never throws to the left side (The X where Little will play). In order to be successful, he's going to have to learn to throw to his left and not rely so much on the right side of the formation: Quote:
When arguing against a big boost in Greg Little’s fantasy value on Twitter this week, I often made the point that the team’s quarterback, Colt McCoy, has all but avoided throwing to the Split End this season. The immediate response to this was always the same: “that’s because it was Brian Robiskie!” Although that’s partially true, do you really think I’m that ignorant? As Cris Carter might say, “C’mon Man!”
Let’s look deeper.
McCoy has thrown 157 passes this year that we credit as Aimed Passes (or targets). Of those 157, 34 have gone to players lined up in the backfield, 58 went to the X or Z, 29 went to a player lined up in the slot (Y), and 36 to an in-line tight end.
Taking it a step further, we see that only 14 of those 157 went to the player lined to wide to the left (the split end). That’s 9% of McCoy’s passes. The NFL average for the “LWR” is 19%. Instead, McCoy has gone to the RWR (Z, usually Massaquoi) 22% of the time (NFL avg: 21%) and to the Tight Ends 32% of the time (NFL avg: 20%).
That still doesn’t solve the “Brian Robiskie” issue, so let’s keep going.
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Here we see the snap distribution for each pass catcher by position. Sorted by snaps at the LWR position, we see the players who spent the most time at Split End. Robiskie and Cribbs were there the most, but Little isn’t too far behind. We need to go a step further.
This is the chart we want. Here we see how often each player is targeted on a per-snap basis at each of the four positions. This makes it very clear that McCoy has preferred to avoid the X position, regardless of who is lined up there. This ends any debate that the only reason McCoy doesn’t throw to the X is the fact that Robiskie is lined up there. In all seven instances, the receivers were targeted more when lined up at the Z rather than at the X. Seven for seven. Overall, we see a 17% to 7% split. Check out Greg Little. The ‘X’ is easily the position he’s targeted the least!
What does all this mean? It shows us pretty clearly that McCoy hasn’t thrown to the X very often this season regardless of who is lined up there. Going forward, Little will see a similar number of snaps to what he’s already seen, but he’ll be at the X more and in the slot less. He is a perfect fit for the split end job and should be able to use his size to beat press coverage, but it’s going to take more than that for him to find Fantasy success.
McCoy is the key. He needs to make it a point to take the snap, drop back, look to his left, and deliver the ball. If he does that, Little is WR3 material going forward this season. If he continues doing what he’s done during Weeks 1-4, Little will leave his owners disappointed.
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nice work on the charts... I can't remember what game it was...Cribbs was coming across from the lwr..wide open..and Colt didn't get him the ball till he was on the right side..with coverage all over him...Miami game I believe.. Quote:
If he continues doing what he’s done during Weeks 1-4, Little will leave his owners disappointed.
And the fans...
Waiting to see what happens in the Oakland game...With little starting and bye week adjustments...I'm anticipating Colt & Little to change that chart...
Keeping in mind...Not sure where Shurmur's head is , as far as calling plays.
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If he continues doing what he’s done during Weeks 1-4, Little will leave his owners disappointed.
His owners? wow... and What little has done weeks 1-4 is improve each game and turn it on in clutch situations. If you cant see Littles got game you are only looking at stats. And stats are .... .....
Joe Thomas #73
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Hmm... Where have I heard this before?
Oh wait, Damanshot has already said this this was disproven. Colt McCoy throws to all fields.
What makes it worse is that at least 4 of those passes were quick screens, and his completion percentage on all passes to the X is not so good.
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His owners? wow... and What little has done weeks 1-4 is improve each game and turn it on in clutch situations. If you cant see Littles got game you are only looking at stats. And stats are .... .....
Where did I say Little doesn't have game ? I was re-plying to another post about Colt needing to throw to Little from the x spot...Colts TD pass to Little on the left side was a great pass and catch on both their parts...Would like to see that more often.
If that doesn't happen..and I hope that's not the case..We all know what the talk will be..
The point of view in this discussion is not depending on the TE's as much as getting the ball to little..Although I really don't care who catches the ball...as long as the O gets points from it...
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After the snap, Colt squares his shoulders to the right sideline, so throwing to his left is throwing over his shoulder. It is the NFL, so this shouldn't happen.
It is the NFL, the N.F.L.! so a quarterback who can go to his left, shouldn't be alot to expect.
If you say Colt isn't squaring his shoulders to the right side, that's what I'm seeing in the plays this season and the pre-season. It doesn't have to continue, I want to see the Qb able to be as versatile as possible.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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And all of that means precisely nothing at all. Unless you know the WHY's of something, you cannot extrapolate future expectations from past performances, especially when trying to predict the future performance of Player B based upon what Player A did. The WCO is a timing offense that requires the receivers to be in specific spots at specific times. Does any of that rambling take into account that just perhaps Robo's issue is that he doesn't know the routes and reads, and thus may not be where he is supposed to be and - just maybe - THAT is why he doesn't get many opportunities? Little, however, simply due to the number of catches he has, shows that he does, for certain, have the ability to be where he should be and when... and - just maybe - that is all that is needed to get production from that spot? Either way, it's all guessing no matter how much you pretend you are backing it with "facts"... none of us will know for certain for another 26-ish hours
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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none of us will know for certain for another 26-ish hours
I am sure we will all know for certain and we will all be in perfect agreement. 
Joe Thomas #73
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Quote:
none of us will know for certain for another 26-ish hours
I am sure we will all know for certain and we will all be in perfect agreement.
Yup, that's my prediction as well... but hey,,, I'm a little 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I love this forum. I use numbers that back up a point, but posters just use their opinon and that some how trumps what I said because they're more "experienced."
Something to keep in mind, one of Colt's most comfortable plays has been the drag route with Watson from right to left. This play works for two reasons, one the receivers stretch the defense up and second, a crossing route pulls a corner or safety off the TE.
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Get on the bus. Here, I saved you a seat.
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j/c
I have not read yet where the switch to Little over Robiskie will end the speculation about 1.) Whether Colt ever looks left and 2.) Whether the receiver on the left can get separation.
If Colt targets Little, then we will know that the problem all along has - likely - been that Robiskie actually cannot get open and/or that Colt has no trust in him to do so.
I'm intrigued to see Robiskie in the slot. But I think we have a zillion slot guys - Cribbs, Norwood, Robiskie, Moore.
Is this the week we see Mitchell? I'd sure like to know what we might have there.
FWIW: I've been to two home games this year. I have tried to watch to see if the receivers truly get open. I honestly can't tell you for sure. They are "open" a second AFTER the ball is thrown to someone else...maybe that is what the Grossis and Cabots are seeing.
I do not regularly see open receivers - for the most part - anywhere on the field. I'll admit that I am not good at making that observation...but "Open" clearly means different things on different plays/reads.
I'd like to see Mitchell get some run as he would surely line up wide. Make the lesser of Robiskie/Norwood inactive and lets see what this guy has.
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I have not read yet where the switch to Little over Robiskie will end the speculation about 1.) Whether Colt ever looks left and 2.) Whether the receiver on the left can get separation.
If Colt targets Little, then we will know that the problem all along has - likely - been that Robiskie actually cannot get open and/or that Colt has no trust in him to do so.
Great point, although I can't see how Robiskie being ineffective at getting open would stop McCoy from even looking left. Not only does he not throw left, but he hardly ever even looks left. Sometimes it's due to pressure, but even if Robiskie is a dud, you'd think the guy would still look that way, if for nothing but keeping a defense honest.
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Thanks for the link.
I had my suspicions and this all but confirms them.
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Suspicions? I've posted the breakdown for three of the four games and I think it was DC that posted the other. At least now all the people who poo-poo'd me can see I wasn't just whistling Dixie.
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I have Greg Little in my keeper league and am giving him a start....I have others on bye this week, so lets hope Colt looks left.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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The good news is that it is a problem that can be fix in the same way it has been a tendency, by better play calling and also by Colt becoming more aware of his tendencies and working to correct them as to make a defense have to defend the whole field.
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Greg Little was a diamond in the rough yesterday. That one spin move late in the game was pretty. He looks like a more explosive Hines Ward.
If he continues to develop like he has, we may have something here.
Cleveland Browns, Space Browns ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/iVP5Po2.png)
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Suspicions? I've posted the breakdown for three of the four games and I think it was DC that posted the other. At least now all the people who poo-poo'd me can see I wasn't just whistling Dixie.
not too many people did (it's always those couple that disagree that make sure they are the loudest). you did a great job backing up what you thought you were seeing with the breakdowns and now it's become so obvious that even national fantasy writers are talking about it.
#gmstrong
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