|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704
Hall of Famer
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,704 |
Quote:
(look at montana, brady, staubach, theisman, etc)
Only one of those guys you named has played a single down in the past 16 years.
The NFL is a different game today than when guys like Montana, Staubach, and Theismann played.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
I don't see Holmgren overpaying for him either .... but I gotta tell you ... if the team with the #1 overall would take our 2 #1 picks and a #2 next year, I think I'd do it pretty quick ... know that I have my franchise guy, and never look back.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
Quote:
I don't see Holmgren overpaying for him either .... but I gotta tell you ... if the team with the #1 overall would take our 2 #1 picks and a #2 next year, I think I'd do it pretty quick ... know that I have my franchise guy, and never look back.
This will all depend on 1 thing and 1 thing only. If Heckert thinks hes the guy and if its worth the GAMBLE (my words) of giving up what should amount to at least 3 starters in the process across 2 years.
Now for me with as much help as we need there is no way I make that trade.
If we had alot more pieces in place then yeah but we've finally had 2 good drafts in a row and are really building this thing right. An epic fail on Luck (not saying it will happen just that it could) would kill all our momentum going forward.
Last edited by NickBrownsFan; 10/05/11 06:11 PM.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183 |
Let's say we somehow get the #1 pick through bad play (I don't see this happening considering our competition in the futility department this year, and there is no way a team with say 2 wins and owning the tiebreaker is going to even think about trying to win the last 3 weeks), but let's just assume we do. Do you take Luck, or do you take the likely 2-3 first round picks and 1-2 2nd round picks that someone else is going to offer you for him? If it is me, I make the trade. We aren't even close to being a good QB away from a title.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
i feel like trading way up in the draft to get a guy you want hasnt really worked all that well in the past.
The Jets moved way up and gave up very little towards what was their future plans and got Sanchez...its worked out in the fact that theyve gone to the AFC Championship game, but a lot of that has been almost in spite of the kid. But that is the positive example.
ATL moving up remains to be seen, but i dont know, their offense actually looks worse.
NO moving up for Ricky Williams was a disaster.
NE seems to have the recipe, trade back and stockpile picks. Use them on good talent and win games...now they have an elite QB (and 2 other very good ones) but the players they get are good. And going forward theyre going to continue to stockpile defensive players with their picks...theyre getting too cute in FA though and thats hurt them of late i think.
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,189 |
I take Luck with the natural (didn't have to sell the farm) #1 pick and use our other #1 (from Atlanta) and the rest of the draft as usual. Maybe even trade the #1 we got from Atlanta (if it's high enough) for more picks this year and/or next.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
New England also hit the jackpot on their quarterback a decade ago.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
j/c I'm so sick of this "Luck" thing. I hope he gets drafted, some team (not the Browns) sell out for him - offering 2 or 3 first round picks, a couple of seconds, etc - and he ends up being terrible. Or, from a spite point of view - I hope he comes here! The "saviour" in Brown and orange. Give him 12 starts, and if we aren't 10-2, well, these same people will do one of 2 things: 1 - they'll start clamoring for the next "sure thing", the next "prototypical qb that has everything", OR, they'll say "give him time". Meanwhile, I'd be using all the picks to shore up our O line, add a linebacker or 2, etc. You know - build a TEAM? Keep in mind, our leader on the O line is in his 5th year? (drafted in 07 - so he played 07, 08, 09, 10, and now 11 - right?) Our right side of the line is nothing. Our d needs work. But somehow having this unproven (as a pro) qb will solve all the problems? Okay. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
(look at montana, brady, staubach, theisman, etc)
Only one of those guys you named has played a single down in the past 16 years.
The NFL is a different game today than when guys like Montana, Staubach, and Theismann played.
Correct.
It's faster. The players are bigger. The d's are better. What was your point?
MY point was even non first round qb's can be good.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,371
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,371 |
Ehhh, you might want to check out a couple Stanford games before you totally come to that conclusion.
I agree that we shouldn't trade away a draft for the guy. Hmnnn just think if we just happened to lose oh say our last 13 games in a row (which is very possible in my mind) and happened to be in position to get him in the draft. I would be a very happy Browns fan.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Ehhh, you might want to check out a couple Stanford games before you totally come to that conclusion.
I agree that we shouldn't trade away a draft for the guy. Hmnnn just think if we just happened to lose oh say our last 13 games in a row (which is very possible in my mind) and happened to be in position to get him in the draft. I would be a very happy Browns fan.
If we're in position to get him without throwing our future drafts away, I'm fine with it. (not that what I say means anything to the Browns - just as what others say means nothing to the team either), but trading 2 #1's, a second or 2? Nope. Not a chance.
If by chance we do something like trade away 2 or 3 number 1 picks, some seconds - we'll see the ruin of yet another qb in cleveland. And it won't take but a year and a half for the "fans" to be all over Luck.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
I don't see Holmgren overpaying for him either .... but I gotta tell you ... if the team with the #1 overall would take our 2 #1 picks and a #2 next year, I think I'd do it pretty quick ... know that I have my franchise guy, and never look back.
This is all depending some on where the 2 1sts exactly are, but assuming ours is around 8-10 (realistic imho) and ATL's around 18-24
The drop off in "value" (whoever invented that value chart, but everyone's using it as a broad measuring stick) would be 1600-1700p...ATL's pick would make up 700-900p, which means we're still another 1st short
That said it'll take (for us) both 1st and a 4th in 2012, 1st 2013...that's the minimum imho, probably another 3rd in 2013 is more realistic
and yes, I would do it....if we give up the "minimum" of 3x1st and 1 of the 4th, we'd still have a pick in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th and all we'd have really "lost" is the 1st in 2013...the ATL trade really gives us enough ammo to not hurt us completely short or long term if we do something like this...at the end we would have to look at both blockbusters and if we come out of them with a franchise QB and pretty decent DT (2 top value positions with high bust%) it's a grand slam HR
You guys are too prospect happy...and I'm 1 of the biggest draftniks around here and would love 20 picks in any draft...but reality is: the quality ones tend to go earlier...and don't forget: Heckert would still have enough decent top 100 picks left to pick some good talent...but you have to swing for quality when the situation and opportunity arises...we have the opportunity thanks to the ATL trade...and with Colt's questionable development the situation is closing in too....just do it and don't hate if we go that way, it'd be the best any Browns GM has ever done
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
it seems like a simple question to answer...but,
Andrew Luck v. a starting RT, starting LB, starting WR, and starting CB (to push Sheldon to safety?)
we would most likely have to give up our first 3 picks this year and a 2nd next year, or 3 1st and a 2nd...I'd imagine 4 picks within the first 2 rounds, which if done right, and done the way its been done the past 2 years, and done the way our team is at this point talent-wise.
I'd take 4 starters to Andrew Luck, we can find a QB through something else, or get a player like Matt Flynn (i think a Matt Schaub quality-clone)
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,337
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,337 |
Quote:
To annoint him as "the guy" or to say "he sucks" is simply ridiculous at this point.
This year he gets a lockout, no OTAs, a new HC, and a new offense. With a bunch of players also new to the offense and loses 40% of his starting OL for the first (3) games of the year.
His #1 receiver did not practice in TC this year and his #2 did not play football last year...his #3 used to be a QB.
How people can claim he absolutely cannot be the guy after what...8 starts...with the deck stacked against him...is beyond me.
We don't know yet whether he can be "the guy"...we simply don't know yet. We need to give it time...and we have no choice but to do so.
This is exactly what I have been thinking, Great Post!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Let's say we somehow get the #1 pick through bad play (I don't see this happening considering our competition in the futility department this year, and there is no way a team with say 2 wins and owning the tiebreaker is going to even think about trying to win the last 3 weeks), but let's just assume we do. Do you take Luck, or do you take the likely 2-3 first round picks and 1-2 2nd round picks that someone else is going to offer you for him? If it is me, I make the trade. We aren't even close to being a good QB away from a title.
Only problem with that philosophy is that you don't ever wait to find a franchise QB. Occasionally a team like the Saints lucks into one, but for the vast majority of cases, you have to get one when the opportunity presents itself.
Besides, if you wait until you're good, you're usually picking way too far back in the draft to get the best "can't miss" prospect.
Nope. If we really suck the rest of the way out so badly that we're picking high enough to take Luck, part of the problem will have been Colt, so taking Luck would be a no-brainer. If we passed on him in the hopes that our 2nd year starter would finally begin to show something then I'd say Holmgren and Heckert should be fired.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
Quote:
it seems like a simple question to answer...but,
Andrew Luck v. a starting RT, starting LB, starting WR, and starting CB (to push Sheldon to safety?)
we would most likely have to give up our first 3 picks this year and a 2nd next year, or 3 1st and a 2nd...I'd imagine 4 picks within the first 2 rounds, which if done right, and done the way its been done the past 2 years, and done the way our team is at this point talent-wise.
I'd take 4 starters to Andrew Luck, we can find a QB through something else, or get a player like Matt Flynn (i think a Matt Schaub quality-clone)
Would you give up a starting RT, LB, WR and CB to grab a Peyton Manning?
I would, in a heartbeat.
This is a QB driven league. You need a great QB to win championships.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
j/c
McCoy completed passes to (11) different receivers....(5) of those receivers had 5-6 catches...(1) guy had (3) catches.
One of the 5-6 catches guys had (4) drops...at least. (Not to mention the defensive PI call where the flag got picked up...somehow...again going against our favor...along with a couple other PI calls that STOOD where yet another reception was likely.)
I think he took what was given to him. He could have played better and the INT pick-6 was simply awful...no excuse...and he said he made a dumb play there.
In the end and at this point:
To annoint him as "the guy" or to say "he sucks" is simply ridiculous at this point.
He was treated like a leper by the "coaching staff" last year and got zero attention (snaps) until thrown to the wolves last year.
This year he gets a lockout, no OTAs, a new HC, and a new offense. With a bunch of players also new to the offense and loses 40% of his starting OL for the first (3) games of the year.
His #1 receiver did not practice in TC this year and his #2 did not play football last year...his #3 used to be a QB.
How people can claim he absolutely cannot be the guy after what...8 starts...with the deck stacked against him...is beyond me 
Not to mention that the overall talent on the entire team remains a work in progress.
We don't know yet whether he can be "the guy"...we simply don't know yet. We need to give it time...and we have no choice but to do so.
Nice Post! 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
it seems like a simple question to answer...but,
Andrew Luck v. a starting RT, starting LB, starting WR, and starting CB (to push Sheldon to safety?)
we would most likely have to give up our first 3 picks this year and a 2nd next year, or 3 1st and a 2nd...I'd imagine 4 picks within the first 2 rounds, which if done right, and done the way its been done the past 2 years, and done the way our team is at this point talent-wise.
I'd take 4 starters to Andrew Luck, we can find a QB through something else, or get a player like Matt Flynn (i think a Matt Schaub quality-clone)
Would you give up a starting RT, LB, WR and CB to grab a Peyton Manning?
I would, in a heartbeat.
This is a QB driven league. You need a great QB to win championships.
No - you don't need a great qb to win championships. You need a great TEAM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
it seems like a simple question to answer...but,
Andrew Luck v. a starting RT, starting LB, starting WR, and starting CB (to push Sheldon to safety?)
we would most likely have to give up our first 3 picks this year and a 2nd next year, or 3 1st and a 2nd...I'd imagine 4 picks within the first 2 rounds, which if done right, and done the way its been done the past 2 years, and done the way our team is at this point talent-wise.
I'd take 4 starters to Andrew Luck, we can find a QB through something else, or get a player like Matt Flynn (i think a Matt Schaub quality-clone)
Would you give up a starting RT, LB, WR and CB to grab a Peyton Manning?
I would, in a heartbeat.
This is a QB driven league. You need a great QB to win championships.
No - you don't need a great qb to win championships. You need a great TEAM.
Having a great team will win you games, Having a great QB will win you championships. And if ur not playing for championships then what's the point.
No offense but perhaps you should look at this list again.
2011 - Aaron Rodgers - 1st Round
2010 - Drew Brees - 2nd Round (First pick of 2nd round)
2009 - Ben Rothlisberger - 1st Round
2008 - Eli Manning - 1st Round
2007 - Peyton Manning - 1st Round
2006 - Ben Rothlisberger - 1st Round
2005 - Tom Brady - 6th Round
2004 - Tom Brady - 6th Round
2003 - Brad Johnson - 9th Round
2002 - Tom Brady - 6th Round
2001 - Trent Dilfer - 1st Round
2000 - Kurt Warner - Undrafted
1999 - John Elway - 1st Round
1998 - John Elway - 1st Round
1997 - Brett Favre - 2nd Round
1996 - Troy Aikman - 1st Round
1995 - Steve Young - 1st Round
1994 - Troy Aikman - 1st Round
1993 - Troy Aikman - 1st Round
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
A look back at recent history shows it's very hard to win it all with a "decent" qb. It's a qb-driven league now. Gotta have a really great one. Game-managers are backups these days.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
You need a great QB.
It used to be that you could win with a great team. Today teams win with a great QB and iffy players elsewhere.
A great QB makes the WR better. He makes the TE better. He makes the RB better. He makes the OL better. He makes the defense better. A great QB has a bigger impact on a team than any other 3 positions combined.
Would the Packers have won the Super Bowl last year without Rodgers? Doubt it. Would they win without their Pro Bowl Safety? How about their All Pro starting CB? Their Pro Bowl WR? Their starting MLB? Maybe losing their other starting CB?
The Packers ended the season with 15 players on IR. They lost both CB and their WR during the Super Bowl.
Would you take Aaron Rodgers, or a so-so QB and a starting CB, WR, OL, and LB? Give me Rodgers all day long.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Neat. How many of those qb's played for a great team???
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,044 |
Quote:
Let's say we somehow get the #1 pick through bad play (I don't see this happening considering our competition in the futility department this year, and there is no way a team with say 2 wins and owning the tiebreaker is going to even think about trying to win the last 3 weeks), but let's just assume we do. Do you take Luck, or do you take the likely 2-3 first round picks and 1-2 2nd round picks that someone else is going to offer you for him? If it is me, I make the trade. We aren't even close to being a good QB away from a title.
Just saying
I highley doubt this team goes 2-14...i figured at the very least were a 5 to 6 win team...
however IF the big IF this team goes 2-14(we don't win another game all year)....I think Randy Lerner seriously has to consider pulling the plug.....thats just not acceptable...considering how much money Randy is paying Holmgren and Heckert...2-14 is not acceptable and is in fact a fireable offense....that would be worse then anything Mangini done....if this team goes 2-14....i think Lerner has to really consider pulling the plug.....i don't think he will have much of a choice.
Look at Dallas....There is going to be some big changes there after this year....Jones is going to pull the plug on Romo and the whole lot if they continue terrible the rest of the way....theres no question Jerry Jones is commited to winning...he doesn't tolerate losing...
again though...no way this team goes 2-14...we are at the very least a 6 win team....thats enough for an evaluation year...6 wins shows the wheels are not falling off under your 1st year coach which is good enough for me...
in the offseason though...if Dallas is looking to move Romo....i think the Browns would be smart to talk to Jones...if we could Romo for a 2nd or a 2nd and a 3rd i'd do it...I think Romo needs a change of scenary...he is a QB we could build around if Colt don't work out for some reason...I would also look into Matt Flynn.
I think Romo and Flynn will be available to get reasonable via trade this offseason...and we should go that route over drafting luck....Flynn especailly.
I have been high on Flynn for 2 years...I wanted Holmgren to go after him last year(rumors are we tried, but the Pack wasn't interesting in moving him then)...if we can get Flynn....it would be awesome...i'd take Flynn over Luck...Flynn has all the tools and a GREAT arm...Flynn's arm is close to being as good as Rogers and he would be a starter on many NFL teams...if we can get Flynn...we better...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
I'm sure alot of them. They were obviously able to scout talent......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
It depends ... if you're telling me that next year we have the ability to pick up Justin Blackmon, Manti Te'o, Chase Minnifield and then Ricky Wagner in order to pick up Luck ... Idk.
Imagine Colt having a season under his belt in this offense ... with a more developed Greg Little ... and a (potential) stud like Blackmon on the other side. Having a right tackle to solidify the line with a pair of guards who will have a year of experience. Imagine an offense where Massaquoi and Robiskie might fight to be the 5th man if Norwood Cribbs and Mitchell are all in the mix.
And then he also gets another few pieces on the defensive side to secure leads so that he might only need to score 21 points for a W.
Let me ask your honest opinion...
with the same situation that Colt is in now how many wins should he get (expected)? Maybe 6 to 8?
How many wins would Peyton Manning give this offense under the same conditions (same O-Line - same offseason with a new offense - new players - etc). Not even the fact that he is a 10 year player and not a 2 year player.
I could see Manning turning the Browns into a 10 win team maybe one more if we are lucky under the same circumstances. In his own system against the Jags, Titans, and Texans (who still don't have a winning season in history) he would routinely get 12 to 14 it seems ... so with 2x Baltimore and 2x Pittsburgh I think 10 or 11 is respectable. But if even Peyton Manning can only pick up 10 or 11 wins under the circumstances... how many other QB's would come in under the same circumstances and do better than what we are seeing?
I just would rather build the team and be able to take a chance once we know that the other pieces are set. Personally I don't think Manning wins a superbowl throwing to the guys we have with the line we have. Maybe they get better ... but if #18 can't do it then why should we hold #12 to that standard?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
You need a great QB.
It used to be that you could win with a great team. Today teams win with a great QB and iffy players elsewhere.
A great QB makes the WR better. He makes the TE better. He makes the RB better. He makes the OL better. He makes the defense better. A great QB has a bigger impact on a team than any other 3 positions combined.
Would the Packers have won the Super Bowl last year without Rodgers? Doubt it. Would they win without their Pro Bowl Safety? How about their All Pro starting CB? Their Pro Bowl WR? Their starting MLB? Maybe losing their other starting CB?
The Packers ended the season with 15 players on IR. They lost both CB and their WR during the Super Bowl.
Would you take Aaron Rodgers, or a so-so QB and a starting CB, WR, OL, and LB? Give me Rodgers all day long.
Yeah.
Screw it. Our problem is quarterback. No two ways about it. Hell, we've had this bum colt for last season and 4 games this season and we haven't been to the superbowl - or even the playoffs. Gotta be his fault. Screw him. He's gone. We'll go on to the next "can't miss sure thing" qb.
Screw building a team - ya know, with receivers and such. It's Colt's fault. Hell, if I was Colt, I wouldn't even show up for practice. I'd say "screw me - I've screwed this team top to bottom - it the Browns only had Rodgers, or Stafford, or Sanchez, or Vick, or Bradford, they'd have won the superbowl last year, and be undefeated this whole season. So I quit. Only so the Browns can get better."
God, I hate this "take a crap on the qb" crap that comes up every year. It's pathetic. It's sad. It's stupid.
Not even payton manning, or tom brady is going to turn this team - TEAM into a super bowl winner.
But hell yeah - Colt needs to be fired or benched so we can get the football equivalent of Jesus next year.
So that we can crucify him in 2 years.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
Quote:
Personally I don't think Manning wins a superbowl throwing to the guys we have with the line we have. Maybe they get better ... but if #18 can't do it then why should we hold #12 to that standard?
What I don't understand is, look at how stacked that team is with play makers at every position and a pretty good defense and they can't win a game.
I mean you would figure that with such a good team they could just plug a quarterback in there and win some games.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Quote:
Would you take Aaron Rodgers, or a so-so QB and a starting CB, WR, OL, and LB? Give me Rodgers all day long.
Is that the argument though?
What did Green Bay give up to take Rodgers? What would we need to give up to take Luck? If Luck falls to our laps and we only need to pick him it's a much better story (and much different) than saying trade the farm for him.
Would I select luck with a single pick? Yep.
Would I trade a 1st rounder for Rodgers? Yep.
Would I trade Haden, Thomas, Hillis, McCoy and D'qwell for Rodgers (or Manning or Brady). No way. Probably not for 3 of those guys....
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
It depends ... if you're telling me that next year we have the ability to pick up Justin Blackmon, Manti Te'o, Chase Minnifield and then Ricky Wagner in order to pick up Luck ... Idk.
Imagine Colt having a season under his belt in this offense ... with a more developed Greg Little ... and a (potential) stud like Blackmon on the other side. Having a right tackle to solidify the line with a pair of guards who will have a year of experience. Imagine an offense where Massaquoi and Robiskie might fight to be the 5th man if Norwood Cribbs and Mitchell are all in the mix.
And then he also gets another few pieces on the defensive side to secure leads so that he might only need to score 21 points for a W.
Let me ask your honest opinion...
with the same situation that Colt is in now how many wins should he get (expected)? Maybe 6 to 8?
How many wins would Peyton Manning give this offense under the same conditions (same O-Line - same offseason with a new offense - new players - etc). Not even the fact that he is a 10 year player and not a 2 year player.
I could see Manning turning the Browns into a 10 win team maybe one more if we are lucky under the same circumstances. In his own system against the Jags, Titans, and Texans (who still don't have a winning season in history) he would routinely get 12 to 14 it seems ... so with 2x Baltimore and 2x Pittsburgh I think 10 or 11 is respectable. But if even Peyton Manning can only pick up 10 or 11 wins under the circumstances... how many other QB's would come in under the same circumstances and do better than what we are seeing?
I just would rather build the team and be able to take a chance once we know that the other pieces are set. Personally I don't think Manning wins a superbowl throwing to the guys we have with the line we have. Maybe they get better ... but if #18 can't do it then why should we hold #12 to that standard?
Oh, hell no. If we only had a good quarterback, we'd be 14-2 this year in reg. season, and we'd win it all in the playoffs. Geez, just check the threads - it's obvious to all the know it alls. Colt is the only problem we have, and he's not fixable.......but if we get Luck next year, we're winners.
Makes me sick the way some people think. It's pathetic.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
Quote:
Personally I don't think Manning wins a superbowl throwing to the guys we have with the line we have. Maybe they get better ... but if #18 can't do it then why should we hold #12 to that standard?
What I don't understand is, look at how stacked that team is with play makers at every position and a pretty good defense and they can't win a game.
I mean you would figure that with such a good team they could just plug a quarterback in there and win some games.......
Wait - Indy is "stacked at every position"???
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,098 |
So far, I've read a lot of posts that outline a scenario in which Andrew Luck is attainable by the Browns... each of those posts are assuming that the Browns will stink it up enough to be within striking distance, come draft time.
So here's a tossup question of a different sort. The scenario:
Were now 2-2. (.500)
Colt McCoy, after struggling for 5-6 games begins to show real signs of the ability that Holmy claimed in his "I'm With Colt" presser. Happy feet are fading, he's looking more decisive, getting his wideouts involved, spreading the ball... you know- actually "getting it." He goes 2-2 against the second quarter of our schedule, showing flashes, a few falters... but visible growth.
4-4. (.500)
He goes 3 of 4 in the 3rd, beating both non-division teams, splitting with Cincy, and getting trounced by Balto. In the meantime, he's more poised, settled, and in command- not just of himself, but the flow of play on the field.
Now, we're 7-5... but that Balto game looked something like the Tenn. game- a real setback.
Last qtr: Split with Pitt (both close games), losses to AZ and Balto. Colt shows continues solidification, with neither highs nor lows... the games just were what they were.
Final record: 8-8. With Colt and the team looking competent in most games, but outplayed by real teams.
You see, this is my nightmare scenario, if I'm in H2's place. We're out of the Luck sweepstakes, unless we play some really fancy draft-day gymnastics, our QB has shown just enough to be kept, but not a slam-dunk as a franchise QB, and holes still need to be filled. QB's are on the board, but they ain't Luck.
What do you do about Colt?
What do you look for on Draft Day?
What would you do?
(Yeah... I know- I ask the 'hard ones'... hehehe)
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
What blows my mind is that after 13 years of shuffling quarterbacks and searching for the right guy everyone is dead set on sticking all they're apples in one basket and every year ' HOPING " the guy we have is "THAT" guy instead of bringing in a backup plan.
LOL, I mean isn't that the EXACT reason we are having this discussion year in and year out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,943 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Personally I don't think Manning wins a superbowl throwing to the guys we have with the line we have. Maybe they get better ... but if #18 can't do it then why should we hold #12 to that standard?
What I don't understand is, look at how stacked that team is with play makers at every position and a pretty good defense and they can't win a game.
I mean you would figure that with such a good team they could just plug a quarterback in there and win some games.......
Wait - Indy is "stacked at every position"???
Every position everyone on here is clamoring for us to draft instead of a franchise quarterback anyways.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Quote:
What blows my mind is that after 13 years of shuffling quarterbacks and searching for the right guy everyone is dead set on sticking all they're apples in one basket and every year ' HOPING " the guy we have is "THAT" guy instead of bringing in a backup plan.
LOL, I mean isn't that the EXACT reason we are having this discussion year in and year out.
So bring in 8 backup plans next year................what changes? The names.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Quote:
What do you do about Colt?
What do you look for on Draft Day?
What would you do?
Look at the success that he had in a short time in his "rookie" year (essentially) and do the following:
1. Get him a BIG TIME weapon (Blackmon? Floyd? Jeffrey? Fuller?)
2. Get him Protection (don't play on this one - a starting first or second round RT and then another developmental linemen possibly in the third or the fourth ... if Steiny goes our Guard position is rather thin by next season and you can never have enough big uglies).
3. Add speed to the defensive and finish the job we started in the 2010 draft.
Then Don't Look Back.
If Colt looks COMPETENT after the offseason we had and with the "talent" around him now ... imagine what experience and weapons do to an 8-8 team ...
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,826 |
Forgot to add - what also changes is the hype before the season. The whole "we got "all world qb", we're playoff bound". hype.
And when there's not TEAM involved - we end up with exactly what we have now - a whole lot of bitching.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,507 |
General reply .....
Last year the Colts had Manning, and he threw for 4700 yards. He threw for 33 TDs. The Colts, as a team, ran for about 1500 yards and 13 TDs. Manning was sacked 16 times in 679 attempts. (OMG!)
They had Joseph Addai as their starting RB. He ran for 500 yards last year.
Their receivers were Garcon, Wayne, Clark, Collie, Eldridge, and a cast of thousands.
This year they have the same guys at key spots .... except for Manning.
Through 4 games, Collins and painter have been sacked a combined 10 times. They have thrown for a combined 822 yards. They have thrown a combined 4 TD passes. They have 1 rushing TD.
The weapons are the same. The QB is different.
Collins is a decent, if trending downward veteran QB. He generally throw more TDs than INT. He generally completes a decent percentage of his passes. It's not enough.
They have shuffled their OL a bit ..... but that's not the difference. Manning makes an OL. He turns slobs into exceptional looking players. The ball comes out so fast with Manning that the OL just has to hold off their man for a couple of seconds. With Collins? Well, the ball doesn't come out nearly as fast. Same with Painter. Manning doesn't run a lot ..... but somehow his OL is always good with him in the game.
Last year, however, they scored 27.2 PPG. This year? 15.8. Much of their offense is in place from last year. Their weapons are there. The QB is not.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
TBH I draft what is going to help the team. I dont worry about QB unless Colt totally tanks I continue forward with the progress we have made and build a TEAM.
When the time comes that we and most importantly they are conviced Colt is either the man or not the man they will address it and we will debate it.
Nothing else will change.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,456 |
I remember watching the draft and saying to myself DRAFT McCoy. I was cheering jumping up and down we got him. I believed we have our guy.
laughed at Holgram saying I said can I have my QB now?
Replayed all the Colt saying Ive found a team Im going to learn. Holgram saying Colt will sit this year.
Then BLAM. QB's down to McCoy and in he comes looks decent, wins some games. This year I was totally on board and still am.
So at this point I have to ask myself what has he done.
Hes won a game last second. Can he do it again? Looks that way
The guy set records personal and team wise. Does he have flaws? Yes.
Does he look like a guy that will fix them? Yes
Will he fix them? Remains to be seen.
Is he the Man? Probably if he continues with his growth and the path Ive seen him take so far.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
This is my horror scenario too....Colt is good enough to win games against this cupcake schedule, we could easily win 6 to even 9 games if everything goes our way from here on out which would put us around pick 11-17...Luck would be hard to get (maybe in a 3way deal but difficult to strike one) and it depends on how many JR QBs go into the draft...
Colt will always be good enough to form a "give him 1 more year"-crowd and that's my biggest fear...that we waste years on him. If we won't go Luck or top 10 QB prospect I want at least Weeden and Colt gets his extra year to show something...that's doable without having to sacrifice any additional picks. It wouldn't be an ideal solution and we may have again 2 "ok" QBs but at least we tried
I have faith in H&H's evaluation skills....I just hope Colt doesn't become a problem since Heckert never really wanted to draft him, so maybe the Walrus wouldn't be ok to draft another QB fairly high while Heckert would like to do so...or let's say Holmgrena and Shurmur want to continue to work with Colt but Heckert doesn't feel that way? He has final say but he has to be a team player then...what I'm trying to say is: we could lose Heckert because of this easily...he's a Dolphins fan and there will be soon new jobs in Miami, where he might get the actual power he here has only on paper...I just don't want to lose Heckert who for me is the most competent of the 3 and the 1 I trust the most..it's a worst case sceanrio but considering how Colt got here I don't think it's far fetched to think this could lead to an offseason problem between Pres, GM and HC...esp. considering the picks we have to move the draft at our will....we have to know what we want and the 3 better be on the same page about Colt...they obviously weren't when he was drafted, sooo..I'm just saying
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum A different QB thread
|
|
