|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877
Dawg Talker
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,877 |
Seriously? You're ripping Holmgren in favor of Mangini? Hell, maybe we can get coachb in here. Or Troy Smith. You're a hoot..... 
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
Quote:
I don't get the love affair with Mangini or Daboll still a year later...
I didn't know there even WAS ONE, til I got back in this thread this morning.
I'll give people Mangini. He was a pretty good coach and maybe, MAYBE, he could have coexisted longer w/ Holmgren or Heckert. But I doubt it . . .
Daboll? I swear I've never EVER read a positive comment about that guy til today . . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
Quote:
I posted a few different responses in the different threads around this ... but I'm just trying to get a sense of what you guys all think.
I sense a lot of pessimism, and I think that some of it is without reason.
We are ... basically ... what we thought we would be.
If you said we are 2-3 ... Colt is taking his licks but is managing the game ... some of the rookies have already stepped into starting roles (5 have now) ... and despite the few injuries here and there - we are **this close** to being 4-1.
A blown play - or two - in Cincy cost us the game. A Blown play - or two - gave up 14 points in Oakland and we were still within 30 seconds and about 40 yards from tying it.
My point isn't to make believers out of everyone and "rally the troops" ... but I just don't get all of the pessimism.
Do you guys really think it's McCoy's fault and we need Luck? Do you really think it's Shurmur's fault that we aren't winning?
Because to me ... we are exactly what we thought we are. We have played somewhat poor but still competitive football in 4 out of the 5 games. Our young guys are making some mistakes and we are seeing the growing pains.
This is what we expected and as far as I knew everyone was waiting for this.
So why does it seem like everyone is getting ready to sell off the rest of their tickets and wait for the 2012 draft?
Just wondering what a lot of you guys think is the problem(s) we are most facing ... and what are the solutions. Will it take time? Will it take a new QB? Will it take a real offseason to give a dozen of our first and second year starters time to gain experience?
I Can't believe that is the way you think. You Twice say this is what we thought we were.
Well 2-3 is a losing record. Who Thought Peyton Manning was going down for the year, as recently as August 1st.
Who thought the Dolphins were, or are looking like they aren't trying to win?
And Who can take a gift like Kenny Britt going down a week before you play his team the Titans , who would have thought that.
a 4-12 record is losing, badly, going 8-8 is NOT WINNING anything!
If they GET to 4-6 they will go 2-5 since starting 2-1 and they've started 2-5 or worse the last 3 years, so it will mean NO PROGRESS, None!
So what you are asking is, ( What do you expect, 4-12, to 6-10, that's what they've been, that's what they should be, that's what they're on the way to, ... .... .... it's ok, ... ... it's supposed to be ... ... .... don't expect any better, ... .... what's wrong with 6-10 again ... .... ... wait another year ... .... don't expect progress....
That is Bull .
If you want to accept a losing team, don't ask me to accept a losing team.
Expect it , maybe, Accept it No!
You seem to suggest that its allright to see a 2-3 record.
To RE read your post, You seem to accept just almost winning against bad teams, or to say... a not blown play would have made the difference.
WELL IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT! YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO DE-MORALIZE THESE TEAMS, The Browns are supposed to beat these teams by alot.
Especially with all these backup qb's they've been facing
The Browns have faced 3 teams without their starting QB for at least half the game in 5 games, and another team without their #1 WR who had boatload production.
So Probably 4-1 yes I expect they should have been 4-1 and except for Tennessee, none of the games should have been close.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Quote:
If they GET to 4-6 they will go 2-5 since starting 2-1 and they've started 2-5 or worse the last 3 years, so it will mean NO PROGRESS, None!
Lies.
Quote:
That is Bull .
If you want to accept a losing team, don't ask me to accept a losing team.
So 99% of the board thought we were in for a 7-9 season - BEST CASE SCENARIO in the offseason with the easier part of our schedule coming in the beginning. And now that we are seeing EXACTLY THAT - you are upset with it?
Quote:
Expect it , maybe, Accept it No!
You seem to suggest that its allright to see a 2-3 record.
All things considered ... yes. It's not ok for the Jets to be 3-3 ... or the Eagles to be 2-4. They mortgaged the farm and went all in and have significant talent.
We are a team without any consistency, no offseason, new offense and defense, rookie head coach, rookies or second year players in half of the starting spots ... and a few blown plays from being 4-2.
I don't accept it but I didn't expect anything more.
Quote:
To RE read your post, You seem to accept just almost winning against bad teams, or to say... a not blown play would have made the difference.
By definition of the way that games are played ... for every team to have a single win, another team has to have a loss. Theoretically, for us to get more wins than losses we need to *(basically) be better than more than half of the teams that we play.
We are not. Due to youth, change, and other matters we are not a better team than half of the teams in the league. Why would you be so nearsighted to assume that if we aren't a better team and have faced more controversy that we should be steamrolling others? By definition we are the team others should be steamrolling. YET - despite us being the worse team even last Sunday we were still 30 seconds from tying the game.
Quote:
WELL IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT! YOU'RE SUPPOSE TO DE-MORALIZE THESE TEAMS, The Browns are supposed to beat these teams by alot.
Why. If anything the Raiders should have demoralized US! You don't understand that? OR do you just refuse to accept it? We are not the better team this last sunday. Oakland is a playoff team and might have problems but they have talent AND speed. They went 6-0 in the west last year and should have won their division. Yet we are supposed to beat them??
Quote:
Especially with all these backup qb's they've been facing
Backup doesn't matter necessarily. Vince Young is a backup. Matt Cassel was a backup. Kyle Boller isn't a starter but it wasn't him who beat us. Matt Hasselbeck is an aging vet who didn't NEED to beat us ... he had 2 throws that combined for about 135 yards and a TD while the other went to the 3 yard line. Colts? Beat them. Bengals? Should have beat them but didn't. Dolphins? Beat them.
Quote:
The Browns have faced 3 teams without their starting QB for at least half the game in 5 games, and another team without their #1 WR who had boatload production.
So Probably 4-1 yes I expect they should have been 4-1 and except for Tennessee, none of the games should have been close.
That doesn't make sense. Yes we should be 4-1. But why would you assume we are good enough to blow teams out?
The dolphins are 0-5. Their biggest loss is by 18 to the Jets.
The colts are 0-6. Their biggest loss is by 27 to the Texans.
The broncos are 1-4. Their biggest loss is by 26 to Green Bay.
The vikings are 1-5. Their biggest loss is by 29 to Chicago.
The Jets, Green Bay, and Chicago are all playoff teams the last few years with an AFC championship game appearance and both NFC championship teams as well. Houston looks to be the real deal finally.
We are not those teams.
How about these?
Chargers? Their biggest win was by 10.
They played Minnesota, Miami and Denver.
Saints? Their biggest win was by 17. They are a solid team but haven't "put anyone away" and only beat Carolina by 3 while they also lost to Tampa Bay.
Patriots? Their biggest win was by 14 to Miami AND San Diego ..
wait a minute ... if they beat a GREAT team like San Diego by 14 but only beat a horrible team like Miami by 14 ... what does that tell us?
Maybe it tells us that it's not always about the "score" but rather about what happens in the game.
Maybe it also tells us that if great teams can't blow teams out by more than 2 td's ... we shouldn't be so upset because we aren't a great team.
Maybe if even the BEST teams that are legit super bowl contenders are only blowing out the WORST teams that are in the Luck sweepstakes by about 20 to 30 points ... we shouldn't be upset if we win by about 10 or so. Because we are NOT a superbowl team.
I don't "Accept" mediocrity or losing.
But I also don't "EXPECT" a team that has been nothing short of embarrassing to suddenly wake up without an offseason and with all of the other circumstances and to look and play better than New England, Houston, Green Bay or the like.
Please take off your fickle glasses, they are ruining the truth for you.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
The way the NFL goes...you want to have a chance. A chance to make the playoffs which gives you a chance to get to the super bowl...because in the playoffs anything can happen.
What we have...is a team that is 2-3, and playing
Seattle
@SF
@Houston
v. STL
v. Jax
in the next 5 weeks.
If we beat Seattle, challenge SF (because they dont score much, save for v. TB), challenge Houston (because they have had red zone issues), and beat STL and Jax...we are at 5-5, with 5 division games remaining of the last 6 one of which v. a bad Arizona team.
Thats a chance...we've beaten every team we've played with a losing record, and weve lost to every team with a winning record...with 2 of them, giving us a chance to tie or take the lead with the ball in the 4th quarter.
Its frustrating because our offense is bad. but, its not like the season is over.
We win 3 of our next 5 and we're back in the thick of things with division games on the horizon. Which...good, we can win division games because theyre division games...Cincy doesnt destroy anyone, Pitt is schizo, and Baltimore well...theyre tough, but we always play them tough
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Say what you want about Coach, but this is fact: he was trying to build a team that would knock your block off with the running game and get after you with the blitz on defense. That's the Pittsburgh Steeler model. Coach Mangini was trying to build that here.
About "coach" huh?
Whan was the last time you watched a Steelers game btw? Because they're a pass 1st team for years now....you must have missed that
Also, the model of "coach" is a losing model nowadays...what smash mouth/run first teams are left? KC, OAK, MIN, JAX, SF, MIA and us till last season....yeah, they've owned the league the last years
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323 |
Quote:
We are a team without any consistency, no offseason, new offense and defense, rookie head coach, rookies or second year players in half of the starting spots ... and a few blown plays from being 4-2.
well.....that makes it all better then. so whats the excuses for next year?
we have had only a little consistency, 1 offseason, a relatively new offense and defense, second year coach, rookies to third years players in 3/4 of the starting spots?
we are what we are....2-3...which is no where close to 4-2(?)....in many respects. one cannot expect that had cincy not scored on that mental lapse by jauron, that they would not have scored anyway, or furthermore the remainder of the game would have happened the same....why? because the situation would have changed....how can you expect everything else would have happened the same way if you removed that play? thus, its completely stupid to keep purporting that we are a few plays away from 4-1, cause we're not. you are what you are....and we are a terrible football team that has barely made it to 2-3 by eeking out wins against 2 winless teams that are tanking their seasons on purpose.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
I'm sorry ... are you suggesting that we shouldn't understand there are differences?
Dick LeBeau has been in Pittsburgh about a decade now right? They have 8 (or is it 9 now) starters on their defense who are 30 or older ... aka have played in the league about a decade. They have ran the same 3-4 and the same offense for at least half a decade even though they make changes. They have been "forced" to play I think 3 maybe 4 rookies now in spot roles (we start about 6 rookies now by the way).
Ben Roethlisberger's only "new" weapon is Dwyer. He has had Hines, Heath, Wallace, Mendenhall, Redman and Moore for about 3 years at least (some longer) and Brown and Sanders and Dwyer are the young guys - Dwyer being the only rookie.
He has run the same offense for about half a decade. His only problem is the O-Line.
My question to you ... should we really be judged apples to apples and have the same expectations as them??
Some people will say "I expect to win every game - that's why we play."
Fine ... I'm glad you have that much hope. But from a non-bias - non-homer point of view ... some teams are more talented, more prepared, and more experienced than others. With everything that we endured in the last year and considering the youth and lack of experience ... if we are expected to compete THIS YEAR with Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Green Bay, New England, New Orleans ... then we will fail 99 times out of 100.
As far as the mental lapse ... why WOULD they have scored? They weren't doing anything. Our defense made adjusments and other than the first couple drives they couldn't do anything. Dalton was out of the game ... and AJ Green was locked down by Haden. He didn't have a catch if memory serves correctly. PLUS a field goal wouldn't have done it! We were up 17 to 16. It was 3rd and 11 and Gradkowski was 4 of 11 for 46 total yards.
That was my point. We weren't doing it pretty but we were doing a pretty darned good job of keeping them out of the endzone and we were still winning.
I *Meant* to write 4-1 not 4-2. We had a bye.
We are what we are. I agree ... a young team that has had the offseason affect it more than probably any other team in the league ... and you won't recognize that and EXPECT we should be measured on - and having the same success as - the standards held to Pittsburgh, Green Bay, and all of the other top tier team who have had CONSISTENCY and NOT turnover in both personnel AND philosophy or scheme.
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323
1st String
|
|
1st String
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323 |
im sorry....do you understand the difference between knowing and assuming?
my point was pretty simple....truth be told, if you wanna make gross assumptions....we are only a few plays away from being 0-5. that door swings both ways, so just drop the argument cause we're not a 4-1 football team. shoulda woulda coulda...and we didn't. 2-3...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556 |
Quote:
Yes, teams turn it around every year. But it's not exactly on a dime as you seem to indicate.
Detroit has sucked since '97. They haven't been in the playoffs since '95.
SF, while slightly better in the last decade, was last in the playoffs the same year we were last in the playoffs.
So, while it's great for those 2 teams to be playing well this year it really means nothing to this team.
I realize everyone is upset but all is not lost unless you give up. And 5 games in is too early to give up.
And will all the Mangini lovers just stop. He wasn't a good coach when he was here. He's not coming back. In fact, there's a good chance he never coachs in the NFL again.
I understand they sucked for a while before they made a change....just like we have sucked for a while, but we don't change.
We have been building through the draft for a long while. We have never been a team to go crazy in FA....we got our players through the draft as much as any other team.
It's just that the players we got sucked.
You going to the game on Sunday? I won't be there for the first time this year.....give me a report on how soon and how loud the booing gets.
My guess is soon, and loud.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
weve been more active in FA than you think...we just havent signed anyone big.
Weve had 1 compensatory pick in the last about 6 years and that was last year. Weve signed more guys than weve let go every year...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556 |
I think other teams have signed those types of players as well.
Any way you want to cut it, other teams seem to finally get out of the mud while we remain stuck.
Another year of waiting.
What else is new??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979 |
Quote:
Another year of waiting.
What else is new??
What really gets me, is the observance that it seems if the Browns play a perfect game, if everything goes according to game plan, if everything goes perfect, PERFECT , PERFECT !!!!!!! ,
The Browns win by 1, or by 1 score, or at most a perfect win is the Browns by 11,
When it should be, if everything goes perfect they win by 30, or at least 25 even if they run the ball all day and play the time of possession game.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
What really gets me, is the observance that it seems if the Browns play a perfect game, if everything goes according to game plan, if everything goes perfect, PERFECT , PERFECT !!!!!!! ,
The Browns win by 1, or by 1 score, or at most a perfect win is the Browns by 11,
When it should be, if everything goes perfect they win by 30, or at least 25 even if they run the ball all day and play the time of possession game.
How would you know that? The last time we played anything close to a "perfect" game was against the Saints and Patriots last year and we beat the Saints by 13 and the Patriots by 20 and those are two pretty darn good teams.. but that was an eternity ago since we have a new coach and all... and we haven't even played a 50% good game this year let alone a 100% good game, so I'm not sure how you can even say that.
How many games in this league are decided by 25 or 30 points?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
I agree...I consider 13 points to be a very healthy margin of victory. It takes a special team to consistently win by 20+.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590
Dawg Talker
|
|
OP
Dawg Talker
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,590 |
Quote:
im sorry....do you understand the difference between knowing and assuming?
my point was pretty simple....truth be told, if you wanna make gross assumptions....we are only a few plays away from being 0-5. that door swings both ways, so just drop the argument cause we're not a 4-1 football team. shoulda woulda coulda...and we didn't. 2-3...
So you agree that despite everything we are a football team who is in every game (except Tennesee) and has the chance to win on any given day this year even if it's ugly? (Which is a lot more than what we have seen the last 2 or 3 years when we braced for 30 point whoopin's)
I think I made my point then and you agreed to it. We aren't pretty. We aren't expected to even WIN many of these games let alone drop 30 points on them. By all standards we are the UNDERDOG ... but despite all of the turmoil we are still right in all but 1 game until the end. We aren't great but we are dangerous. What else could you ask for considering?
"Believe deep down in your heart that you're destined to do great things."
@pstu24
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814 |
Quote:
Quote:
im sorry....do you understand the difference between knowing and assuming?
my point was pretty simple....truth be told, if you wanna make gross assumptions....we are only a few plays away from being 0-5. that door swings both ways, so just drop the argument cause we're not a 4-1 football team. shoulda woulda coulda...and we didn't. 2-3...
So you agree that despite everything we are a football team who is in every game (except Tennesee) and has the chance to win on any given day this year even if it's ugly? (Which is a lot more than what we have seen the last 2 or 3 years when we braced for 30 point whoopin's)
I think I made my point then and you agreed to it. We aren't pretty. We aren't expected to even WIN many of these games let alone drop 30 points on them. By all standards we are the UNDERDOG ... but despite all of the turmoil we are still right in all but 1 game until the end. We aren't great but we are dangerous. What else could you ask for considering?
Had the raiders starting QB not been hurt we would have been blown out.
We are at the point we are because REALITY dictates it.
We added almost nothing to a thin Oline and an injury and retirement left us desperately thin. Colt is paying the price.
We dumped a bruising Fb and HANDED the job to a rookie and we are having trouble running the ball, go figure.
We ave the worst set of WRS and the broncos dump a quality guy for a #7 and we sit on our hands. Robiskie and MoMass were "magically" supposed to turn the corner because it was their 3rd year. How is That working out.
Shurmer calls plays and does not consult with Colt on the Sidelines. That is working well too.
We have a thin and average talented secondary and add next to nothing and that is breaking down.
we have SLOW lbers on the edges making it easy for speed backs to KILL us.
WE are where we should be when a front office does nothing in free agency to address a teams ability to compete. yeah knew there were no playoffs yet one should always look to upgrade when possible. we let GLARING holes go unattended so what is happening is REALITY. Hate to pop balloons but REALITY is doing that.
Oh and we hire an assistant to the special teams coach of the bears and lose a top coach and you see the difference a year makes.
Last edited by akronjoe; 10/19/11 05:18 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,151 |
I think the biggest thing lacking this year is accountability and discipline over anything else.
that being said on what you said joe...
Theres no evidence to prove that we'da been killed if Campbell played the whole game...it was 14-7 when he got hurt and one of those TDs they had was a special teams TD...so thats not the case. Theres a chance it may have been better for them because it gave them extra focus on the running game.
In addition...you say speed backs are killing us. McFadden and CJ2K are the fastest RBs in the league and they have 192 yds and 1 TD between the two of them...including both teams having 3 score leads in the 2nd half...
Yes our OL, WR corps, and LBs are struggling...that being said...had we addressed those needs we'd be struggling everywhere else.
This year we reworked up the DL, Secondary (albeit without big splashes...hows that workin out for Philly), RB corps (with healthy hardesty and smith and now ogbonnaya), OL (admitedly not for the overly better results, but we got depth, and then the depth retired and got put in the games), a portion of the QB corps, and added a WR.
We arent able to plug every hole every year...we tried that with Savage and it didnt work. If we would have brought in a bunch of new players we'd be talking about how we overpaid for bums that arent getting the job done.
Its not the quickest progress, and the problems are accentuated by our QB play...a QB getting hit with the most of em, being hesitant because his guys arent necessarily where theyre supposed to be or he doesnt trust the throw, or something else...and not great protection, but we have a young line thats improving as time goes on. Our guards are learning on the fly, and just like the year we brought in Coleman and Andruzzi, itll settle down in time.
Time heals all wounds...and this is a time where thats all we can expect, its all we can do, and its what will help.
PAtterson/Skrine/Adams or Young/Hagg and Ward will hold down the secondary for years...im not even mentioning Haden cuz he will be amazing.
Our OL will solidify, and adding a RT will make it even better, our WRs will look better when Little settles in better, cuz itll open up things for MoMass and Cribbs...Watson and Moore will get more defined roles.
Our LBs will understand their roles better and play better, that being said...we could use a speedster in Fujita's place...but we'll get there. When titus returns it may solidify better than you think.
Time...
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,556 |
Quote:
Time heals all wounds
So the saying says, anyway....I say maybe not.
We won a championship in 1964 when I had just gotten my drivers licence.....or maybe just short...anyway...that's what....47 years ago??
I don't know about what kind of time frame you are talking about, but 47 years is more than half of most peoples lifetime, and we had some good teams with bad breaks 25 years ago, but don't tell me time heals wounds, it only makes them fester and puss if you don't fix them.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,551 |
Wounds in Cleveland develop a Staph infection.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,076 |
You know- I really wanted to chuckle at that one, Mourg... but I gotta say this:
When it was reported that Alex Mack had to undergo an appendectomy, the thought did cross my mind for a second...
[shrugs]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647 |
Quote:
Quote:
And will all the Mangini lovers just stop. He wasn't a good coach when he was here. He's not coming back. In fact, there's a good chance he never coachs in the NFL again.
I hope he coaches the Buckeyes.
I still think it's BS that President Holmgren gave Coach Mangini practically nothing in terms of talent to work with and gave him a mandate that he must win X amount of games. He gave him an over the hill Jake Delhomme at QB and a rookie Colt McCoy, without adding to the WR corps.
Say what you want about Coach, but this is fact: he was trying to build a team that would knock your block off with the running game and get after you with the blitz on defense. That's the Pittsburgh Steeler model. Coach Mangini was trying to build that here.
Now, we get this finesse crap. And I hate it.
And that's on President Holmgren, because of his massive ego. All offseason he talked down about Coach Mangini's offense and the result is exactly the same. That says it all about the talent he gave Mangini to work with.
I don't usually agree with Ammo but this is probably one of the best posts on this board in a long time.
The 09-10 Browns were 10-22, but you could see improvement (except for the 41-9 Pitt loss at the end) in various areas. McCoy looked sharper.
Teams were AFRAID to play the Browns in '10. Yes, they beat us 11 times--but many games were close and the Browns were tough. Sometimes, we'd injure their key players and leave the team hurting...costly victories.
We had Hillis as our cornerstone on O and we were trying to be the '93-96 Pats or the late '80s-early '90s Giants. tough, basic, ball-control.
I <3 the WCO--it's my favorite system; I'll admit I wanted it to work in C-Town. In hindsight, that would have been better to stay with the Parcells O and kept Mangini.
The team is 3-4. Under Mangini, I'd say the team at the very worst is 4-3; the Cinci game would have been a win. The team may not have won vs. Oak or SFO, but at least it would have been on its way up--a solid team with few mistakes and solid specials.
Go Browns!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
And to add to it, instead of getting him 3-4 backers, he gave us Jayme Mitchel the so-called "best pass rusher on the team" - who is rocking the NFL landscape with 1.5 sacks this year, and all of 19 tackles.
This FO very, very clearly stuck with Mangini solely because of fan opinion, but then proceeded to blatantly handcuff him to ensure failure. Their decision had already been made.
Why were our WR's good enough this year? Because they couldn't say that they weren't after they said they were for Mangini, could they?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
I knew he was a Manginian
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,167 |
Say what you want about Mangini... but either one of his teams would beat the snot out of what is getting trotted out on the field this season 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 50,419 |
I think that they stuck with Mangini because they knew that 2010 was going to be a very difficult year based on the schedule .... and so they wanted to get another draft under their belt, and then bring in their preferred coach to take advantage of more (Heckert drafted) talent and a far easier schedule.
You have to know that Mangini wasn't going to stay when Heckert traded for a guy (Mitchell) who could not play a position for Mangini in his defense. That trade took place in early October ..... so what ... week 4 or 5? Maybe week 6?
When the front pffice is making trades for guys who don't fit the coach's scheme .... and doing so 4-6 weeks into the season .... that tells you all you really need to know.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
Say what you want about Mangini... but either one of his teams would beat the snot out of what is getting trotted out on the field this season
Ummm...no? The early version of his 2009 team would easily lose to this team on defense alone and with some Colt dinkndunk...people think THIS team can't score..go re-watch the the same 1st Mangini games: we had a MUCH worse Offense and not anywhere as good a D....forget it
It's unfair to compare this Shurmur team to Mangini's product after 20+ games..Mangini also had tons of vets playing and we're trotting out almost all of our last 2 drafts
What's this Mangini-nostalgia whine fest anyway? Jesus
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 647 |
Quote:
I knew he was a Manginian
I was. I didn't agree with everything he did, but he had the team going in the right direction.
the 41-9 loss to Pitt in week 17 was horrible.
I don't trust this FO. the last one I felt more comfortable with. However, I like Heckert for the most part. I don't like the fact they didn't choose OGs wisely. Pitt got Starks back and won 3 straight. That's how you build a team--you make smart, decisive moves and you don't look back.
Go Browns!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,472
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,472 |
This FO is infinitely more stable than the last (that is, if you're comparing Holmy and Heckert to Mangini and what's-his-name). The guy that got fired, "for cause", a couple months after he got hired. Yeah, that's the model of stability right there. I'm still curious what the exact story was on that. You gotta pull off something big to get that kind of treatment.
The current office has had two AWESOME drafts so far. 1 or 2 more drafts like that, and we'll be watching an entirely different team. That's the reason why I'm hesitant to NOT draft a quarterback high this coming offseason. If Heckert can work his magic with the picks that we have now for WR, LB, safety, and a RT (which I think is within the realm of possibility given the number of picks we have and where you normally draft those positions), I say put off drafting a QB high for one more year and fix several positions at once. Ok, I'm coming back from that little tangent...
This front office is awesome, in my eyes. You won't be able to see effects from the actions from the front office for several years, anyway.
Coaching, you have a slightly stronger argument, but not by much. Shurmer still has lots of room for growth, and I see him taking his licks this season as our talent starts growing throughout this year and next.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 814 |
Quote:
This FO is infinitely more stable than the last (that is, if you're comparing Holmy and Heckert to Mangini and what's-his-name). The guy that got fired, "for cause", a couple months after he got hired. Yeah, that's the model of stability right there. I'm still curious what the exact story was on that. You gotta pull off something big to get that kind of treatment.
The current office has had two AWESOME drafts so far. 1 or 2 more drafts like that, and we'll be watching an entirely different team. That's the reason why I'm hesitant to NOT draft a quarterback high this coming offseason. If Heckert can work his magic with the picks that we have now for WR, LB, safety, and a RT (which I think is within the realm of possibility given the number of picks we have and where you normally draft those positions), I say put off drafting a QB high for one more year and fix several positions at once. Ok, I'm coming back from that little tangent...
This front office is awesome, in my eyes. You won't be able to see effects from the actions from the front office for several years, anyway.
Coaching, you have a slightly stronger argument, but not by much. Shurmer still has lots of room for growth, and I see him taking his licks this season as our talent starts growing throughout this year and next. [/quote
While I agree this front office has been the most stable since our return I find it troubling as well.
In pre season I complained about the lack of movement to upgrade the oline. the totally delusional comments about Pashos being a solid rt, when he has lived down to the oft injured player with moves like the mummy.
We remained stubborn that Robiskie and Momass were supposed to become NFL ready because by magic it happens in the 3rd year. Robiskie is history and momass is average. the front office stuck to delusions we did not need wr help. uh huh.
we have slllloooowww OLs and getting the edge is easy pickings for any decent runner we have faced. and we did nothing here as well.
Sheldon "downtown" Brown is toast vs any decent NFL receiver with the ability to separate, which makes him look deceptively good facing our wr slugs in practice.
We dump a solid blocking fb and now cannot make short yardage or run the ball. go figure.
quite Frankly we are playing BETTER than i thought we would.
DQ has played lights out. I did not see that at all.
Our rookie dline has played solid at times.
our rookie wr is already much better than our former #2s( one who is history)
What do i want to see.
a) cribbs at RB as well.
b) Greco in for lavauo who is a total liability as a pass blocker.
c) 2 te sets, get the best hands on the field.
d) more screens.
e) A TE next to the mummy Pashos chipping the Dlineman into him.
On Defense.
I want to see another corner worked in for brown, leave him in on running downs
More maiva at LB for the slow Fujita to cover Rbs out of the backfield.
More blitzes mixed in and Differnet people blitzing: lets actually CONFUSE somebody other than ourselves.
leave a FB in to block for McCoy on passing downs, the oline sucks and McCoy was under duress many many plays against SF.
Our front office by sitting on their hands in free agency told the fans this season is a wash. sadly by giving Mccoy, no blocking, no recieving, and no running game and hearing how our young QB is being evaluated...I evaluate the help the front office gave this kid to succeed an F.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
I have to do it...
Hey akronjoe, how is Shaun Rogers doing in New Orleans? And Phil Taylor?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
My only comment regarding WRs is... Who we're you ganna bring in?
Overpay for an oft injured Sidney Rice? No thanks.
How is it you've been on here this long and still can't figure out how to use quotes?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,656 |
Quote:
I still think it's BS that President Holmgren gave Coach Mangini practically nothing in terms of talent to work with and gave him a mandate that he must win X amount of games. He gave him an over the hill Jake Delhomme at QB and a rookie Colt McCoy, without adding to the WR corps.
And he gave Shurmur McCoy and Wallace, without adding to the WR corps, other than a guy who didn't even play last year. Oh my God, it's a conspiracy against his own hand picked coach, too!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19,133 |
Quote:
In pre season I complained about the lack of movement to upgrade the oline.
....and about everything else that had to do with the team.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,472
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 13,472 |
The only problem I have with your post is that it goes against what the FO is trying to accomplish (which I believe in). That is building this team back up through the draft. We've had 2 drafts (or 1.5 if you count the fact that Mangini was here for Heckert's first). You can't rebuild the whole team with 2 drafts, and we've had 2 pretty good drafts. With the ammo we have going into next draft, it's gonna be a doozy (  ) Yes, you're right... we could have gone after a bunch of free agents to make us competitive, but there are 2 problems with that. 1. Philly (look how great it's working out for them) 2. Cost (we could upgrade every position of need (i.e. every position on the team), but at what cost?) Philly sold the farm for free agents this year, and even though they were way further ahead in terms of base talent level, look how far it got them! The cost to go the FA route would have been astronomical, and not just in terms of dollars. And don't even try countering with "Oh, they just had to get a RT in FA, and then I'd be happy". To that I say Bupkis, because then akronjoe#2 would come along and complain about how, "they got a RT FA, why couldn't they get a LB FA?" and etc. In terms of specific "talent" that they currently have on this roster, I like what they're doing. We see Robiskie out there for a couple years, but Heckert and Holmy hang onto him for this year. They want to see and evaluate for themselves. Well, they saw, they evaluated, and now he's gone. Robiskie is just the first. And more good news is coming on the WR-front, as we're pretty much guaranteed to invest a pick into the WR position this coming year. I would not mind another 2nd or even 1st round receiver. Ok, my mental barf of a post is over...
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,858 |
Quote:
Quote:
In pre season I complained about the lack of movement to upgrade the oline.
....and about everything else that had to do with the team.
I get it,, and to a great degree, I agree with Joe about winning now.. That's what he wants. Otherwise, why blow a wad of cash on quick fix players that aren't part of the long term.
But if you really look at the teams that are consistent winners year after year (pats, steelers, ravens and the eagles prior to this year anyway),,, they do it via the draft..
Joe doesn't get it.. or if he does, he just don't agree with it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,520 |
A couple thoughts to add.
One : Mike DID say in his presser a week or so ago they TRIED to get a WR in free agency but it didn't work out ( which means whoever it was, wanted no part of the Browns OR he got more money ) Two: I remember a press conference way back with Savage, close to the closing of a FA period he was asked if they were going to try and add anyone else since we still had plenty of cap room and his reply was their was also an annual TEAM budget to consider. It was strange the way it came out, kind of well... er.. we don't have any more to spend. We aren't the Eagles and we ain't the Jets and we ain't the Cowboys and we sure aren't the Redskins.. Think more like the Steelers. Draft good cause you ain't getting much else.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Where's the blame - and what's the
answer?
|
|
