Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Likes: 83
T
Legend
Offline
Legend
T
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 15,979
Likes: 83
Quote:

And you know perfectly well that its unreasonable to assume he picked up the last offense just fine but can't understand this one.




I don't think it's unreasonable to think this offense is such a patchwork, hodge podge, rework in progress, restructuring, re-organizing as it goes along, that noone can understand it.
Hey if they can sign Chris O'Banaya and he is a major factor less than 2 weeks after he joins the team, ( or a minor factor with some key pick ups), than it could be that noone is getting the offense.

( Are the Browns O-linemen tipping off opponents? )
How in the world am I supposed to know? How could a fan know?

I think you'd have to be on the line of scrimmage or at least the sideline or be a back judge official to be able to answer that.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,163
Likes: 845
Legend
Offline
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 28,163
Likes: 845
Quote:

I actually agree with you; I just don't like the assumption that academic intelligence translates on the field.




No, the one does not necessarily equate to the other, but an ability to learn is an ability to learn.
It's JUST the an offense, it is not some strange, foreign concept being thrown out that these guys have never heard of.... we're talking about an intelligent guy that has been immersed in football for over a decade.

In the end, for his perspective, it still boils down to blocking schemes and reading a defense... and no matter what offense we run, he's still reading the same defenses.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Likes: 234
D
Legend
Offline
Legend
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 13,205
Likes: 234
It would be nice if the answer to the Browns' offensive woes were this simple and easy to fix, and it may be part of the problem. But I doubt it provides even a majority of the answer. After all, if Aaron Curry with his limited experience could spot it right away, wouldn't you expect a smart veteran like Scott Fujita or D'Qwell Jackson to spot it during preseason scrimmages and practice? And wouldn't they advise a teammate if they were exposing the play with a "tell"?

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
A
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
A
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Quote:

Chris O'Banaya




I hear his nickname on the team is "Red'

Sorry, I digress. Carry on!

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
N
Legend
Offline
Legend
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
just an outside source talking about our issues with the OL. i find it strange that they combine both OG totals and they are barely more than the RT total yet say the OG issue is a bigger one (taken average per position makes the RT spot worse)

anyways, more of what we know, but an outside source seeing it too (our old buddy Ryan Tucker)

Quote:


Tuesday, November 8, 2011

ClevelandBrowns.com
By Daniel Wolf
Senior Writer

The Cleveland Browns have had their fair share of issues on offense this season, which is really just a nice way of saying they have big problems.

After Sunday's loss to the Houston Texans, former St. Louis Rams and Browns offensive lineman Ryan Tucker was on WKYC Channel 3's show Browns Insider, talking about Cleveland's offensive line.

Tucker played in the NFL for 12 seasons at right tackle and right guard, and knows a thing or two about playing in the trenches.

While showing only a couple replays from the Texans game, Tucker pointed out something very interesting in each of the examples shown—the young and inexperienced offensive guards are two of the biggest problems in the pass protection. They are also a big reason why quarterback Colt McCoy continues to get beaten down every Sunday, not to mention a reason as to why the passing game is as inept as it is.

Starting left guard Jason Pinkston is a rookie, and starting right guard Shawn Lauvao is a first-year starter who is only in his second year in the NFL.

Tucker pointed out how the guards were not finding Texans linebacker Brian Cushing pre-snap, since he was moving around from the right to the left side on Sunday. When Cushing moved around, and he did that quite a bit, Tucker said the guards were not aware of his movements and cited how it was also the fault of both center Alek Mack and McCoy for not picking up Cushing's movement.


Both guards Shawn Lauvao (pictured above) and Jason
Pinkston are a big part of the problem on the O-Line.
(ClevelandBrowns.com)
This led to Cushing punishing McCoy over and over again. Tucker also mentioned how the guards should have kicked out to pick up Cushing on his blitzes and failed to many times. Cushing finished the game with a sack, a quarterback hit and several pressures on McCoy.

In other words, Tucker is implying the offensive line and McCoy are going through the learning pains of having two first-time starting guards, along with a center and quarterback who are learning a new offensive system—the West Coast offense.

To help support Tucker's observations, reference was made to on ProFootballFocus.com (PFF). If you don't have a subscription to this site, you're really missing out on some fantastic statistical breakdowns, all the way down to individual plays.

Per PFF, the Browns guards have given up a total of three sacks, nine quarterback hits and 21 quarterback pressures. Important to note these numbers are more than the totals from the right tackle position, which has been a problem for the Browns offensive line all season-long, too.

At right tackle, Tony Pashos, Artis Hicks and Oniel Cousins have all spent time at the position, collectively allowing two sacks, six quarterback hits and 23 quarterback pressures.

So, for as bad as Cleveland fans—on Twitter—are complaining about right tackle, know that both guard positions are equally bad, if not worse since it is a combination of two positions and not just one.

This goes to show how important losing left guard Eric Steinbach really was for the offensive line this season. Hopefully, next season, he can get healthy, continue to play at a high level, help the line and help mentor both Pinkston and Lauvao into becoming better guards.

It should also be noted how starting left tackle, Joe Thomas, and Mack are both rated in the Top 15 of their respective positions (Thomas No. 4 overall tackle, Mack No. 14 overall center) by PFF's ratings system. They have given up a total of three sacks, two quarterback hits and 11 quarterback pressures, combined.






http://www.nationalfootballauthority.com/2011/11/cleveland-browns-offensive-line.html


#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
D
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Interesting, to recap:

- RT is our biggest hole...the whole board agrees on that I think

- "AllPro" Mack is rated AVG (and I can only guess they're being nice on reputation alone when they're counting pressure blame up the middle)

- our Gs get "as much" blame as the RT for allowing as much pressure COMBINED? Yeah, makes sense

- our Gs are missing on blitzes? I've never heard those UDFA Gs of the Colts being accused of it....Mack is the vet here and Colt "smart" McCoy the QB and Tucker now is saying what I've been deducting for weeks now: Mack struggles with the mental side of the C position (Calls, helping out etc) and McCoy was overrated by EVERY Browns fan, FO member and coaches for his supposed "smarts".....yeah, but let's upgrade the Gs and then look how McCoy or Mack does not get the "better" G talent into position, that'll be a HUGE upgrade .....cause that's their JOB, not the Gs...if Gs were that smart, they'd be playing C...oh wait, looks like we have a G playing C too...a 1st round C/G tweener...who has said that for the last weeks around here?

- how you like Alex Mack now? What a waste of 4 Top 50 picks...after only 2 years all what's left is an AVG to good C and a below AVG to bad #2 WR


#gmstrong

"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
N
Legend
Offline
Legend
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
a couple things

1. PFF is a statistical based website meaning that they do not take reputation into play when grading players. If their site had reputation-bias, then it would kill their site (it's tough to root out all bias, but there are steps that can be taken and they should be).

2. Yes, Alex Mack (and Colt) get some of the blame here, but Tucker specifically pointed out the OG play as being the issue and yet you can still twist that into being solely the fault of Mack. You are talented

3. I agree that RT is our biggest problem as mentioned above.


#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,543
Likes: 986
B
Legend
Offline
Legend
B
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 39,543
Likes: 986
J/C

My theory on O-line is if you are trying to get a player drafted after 3rd to be a good player, you are counting more on being lucky then anything else.

How about we start drafting guys who stand a 90% chance of being pretty good v players who stand a 90% chance of being pretty bad?


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong




[Linked Image]
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
N
Legend
Offline
Legend
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
I agree and would not mind at all if our 2nd round pick ends up solidifying our RT spot for the future (I think Pinkston can play and is going through some growing pains, I'd be willing to keep him at one of the OG spots w/ Steiny coming back)


#gmstrong
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
D
Hall of Famer
Offline
Hall of Famer
D
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
1. I know...but do they know the OLs assignement? I guess not...so if a blitzer gets through Mack and Lauvao, who do you think they're going to blame? If it looks like a tie, they probably give the higher reputation the benefit of the doubt...it also doesn't take into account how often Mack has simply failed to give any help....I've seen him, and pointed it out in post game threads, block AIR quite often this season, pretty much underlining Tucker's point of him struggling picking up pre snap moves by the D

2. I've been consistent...I said I've seen little difference in Mack's and Pinky's play so far this season, Lauvao had more big misses and breakdowns (would love to know what the "splits" on the Gs are)....I'm not saying it's all Mack's fault at all....just that I'm pretty disappointed by his play as he's the "QB of the OL" so to say AND he was a high investment.....he should make the Gs play look better, yet my eyes and Tucker's evaluation see a C that is making them look even worse

Look....I highlight Mack and McCoy for 2 reasons:

1. The majority of this board seems to think that with better G or RT play our QB would be decent....and I think it's the other way around...a better and smarter QB would make the Gs job easier and make them look much better...Gs are strong stiffs, if you can tell them what's coming they get in better position to let their strength win the battle...if not, you have them guessing and reach-blocking due to poor positioning more often....and that's when they get beat and look bad...Gs are muscle, they need brains from C and QB to fulfill their assignement...if not, they're wasted....that's why the QB and C position have more value than the G position on draft day

2. A Center that has problems picking up pre snap stuff is a much bigger problem to his team than his 1on1 matchup as the entire OL and ultimately the QB are affected....people around here want more time for Colt and are ok or even love Mack and are quick to scapegoat the Gs but the truth is that QBs and C play affect Gs more than the other way around

Tucker is blaming the Gs and they aren't good by any means but my point is and was that McCoy and Mack ARE part of the problem, not the solution...and Tucker is agreeing obviously


#gmstrong

"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
N
Legend
Offline
Legend
N
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
i agree with the general premise that the QB/C can make the OGs job easier with proper audibles and line calls. however, we have seen our OGs in the right spot on many plays and still let their guy right through anyway.

also, it's tough to know if the proper line call was made and the OGs did the right thing or not.

i'm disappointed by our entire offense this year and give no exceptions. all of them must play better. it's painfully obvious some have much farther to go. however, i will hold out hope for all of the younger guys to improve as they get experience but improvements must be made (including the OGs as well as Colt, etc.)

as for PFF, here's how they define how they tackle that issue

Quote:


3) How do you know exactly what a player’s job is on any given play and whether negatives were his fault?

This question obviously changes depending on the position and the specific play. Much of our methodology can be found in our explanation of our grading, but we will go into a quick summary:

Pass Protection
This is a measure of how much total pressure a player gives away during a game. It isn’t a simple formula like -1.5 for a sack, -1 for a hit, as time taken to get the pressure is also very important. This is then normalized by adding a small positive factor for every drop-back he played. It is usually simple enough to determine what a player’s assignment is in pass protection, as we have the benefit of being able to watch one player closely and specifically multiple times. It is possible that a blocker is directed by the quarterback to take a specific man, resulting in a pass rusher that appears to be his responsibility getting a pressure and us grading that blocker down. This is an inherent inaccuracy in the grading, but despite this potential inaccuracy we have had NFL sources, including Bengals OG Evan Mathis, confirm that our grades are accurate, and reflect closely what they receive as internal feedback. There may be an inherent margin of error in what we do, but it is still more accurate than anything outside of a team meeting room.

Run Blocking
Again, it is rare not to be able to determine where a run was supposed to go, and what a blocker’s assignment was on a particular play. Players don’t make the kind of mental lapses often that would see them going to a totally different place than where they should have been. If they did they wouldn’t be in the league long. If a player attempts a block on somebody, whether they win the encounter or lose it, it was almost certainly their assignment on the play. This is obviously not easy to pick up live and in real time, but again we have the benefit of being able to go back retrospectively and watch multiple replays of a play developing to get the information.






#gmstrong
Page 2 of 2 1 2
DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Is the Browns OL tipping off opponents?

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5