DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Universal Health Care: Yay or Nay?

The title pretty much does all the talking. How does the general public feel about it? I mean really.... I think it would bring down the quality of health care and is unfair for those paying the bulk of it in taxes (assuming that's how it would be done- TINSTAAFL afterall). For the most part I also feel as though health care is not so much a right as it is an opportunity. Yet also, part of me would like to see some type of insurance for everybody.

What do you guys think?

Let the arguing, banter, and basic non-contact sparring begin.

Nay.

No; too many negatives IMO. Quality of care; Way way higher Taxes; long wait times...just a few of the thing I can think of off the top of my head. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Nay.

Nay.. Only the rich and those able to afford it should be able to get quality health care. Screw the rest of them. What do you think we are anyways? A compassionate people?

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" />

Universal Healthcare exists.. just say you're illegal immigrant and have no address.. but in any which way we are paying for others healtcare to begin with.. How much does a tylenol pill cost while in the hospital?

Ditto.

Right.. because anybody who doesn't want the government.. the same government that brought us such wonderfully successful programs as subsidized housing, social security, and public education... running our health care is obviously an elitest who doesn't care if the poor die in the streets... <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

Heck no.. I don't want em.. let em rot!

Yes. Health care is needed. We all pay for it anyway. People being able to get basic preventative maintenance healthwise would eventually raise the quality of life for our entire society. Prices would also come down eventually since the poor would no longer have to be payed for by inflated hospital prices. Citizens only though please.

Preventative maintenance? Eat right and exercise. <img src="/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> If you think a universal government funded health plan is going to pay for checkups, physicals, unnecessary bloodwork and diagnostic testing....you're living in fantasy land.

The healthcare system is already totally abused by those who receive free government health benefits. I see it every day I go to work. You wouldn't believe what piddly maladies people come to the emergency room for when they don't have to pay anything. Those getting the freebies are also the one's that threaten lawsuit every chance they get. If every citizen were to receive free healthcare with no copays, the system would fail in no time.

Lawyers and abusers are the people responsible for the sad shape of our healthcare system, not greedy providers as the media would have you believe.

yay

I don't think it would 'ruin' health care. I just think those who could afford better medical care would continue to pay for it, and the less off will get the government model. Which would have it's advantages and it's disadvantages. The way I see it, doctor bills would go up for the better off, but the
perscription costs would go down. And, yes, I don't mind paying more money to ensure that everyone in my country has heath care. I would be very proud to say that everyone in my country has health care. The fact that we are far and away the wealthiest country in the world, and all of our people don't get health care...I'm ashamed of that.



Unfair? What's fair about being told you're going to die because you can't afford to live?



Really? <img src="/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Don't know how you would get it to work to be honest. They got it in the UK (throw in the free house and wages for nothing and it's no wonder every European illegal is striving to get there <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> )
The problems back home are mainly not enough beds (or specifically not enough nurses to look after the people in the beds) and waiting lists which are like 4 years long. Private Health still exists because people don't want to wait.

No to Universal Health care means "No" to rationing, long waiting periods for surgery, government access to medical histories and personal life style choices and the inevitable mandates that will follow, and the possibility - even if remote - of exclusionary policies ... denying care to in utero birth defects, severely retarded or otherwise birth defected newborns, the elderly, etc.

No to Universal Healthcare.

Something needs to be done though, more specifically in the "paper pushing" realm.

We watched something about this in my Sociology class. Basically, so much money is wasted on the middle man that we get the least efficient bang for our buck, I think we're #19 in the world in terms of bang for the buck? That's wrong to do.

I'm not all for universal healthcare, but we need to do SOMETHING. There's NO excuse for the richest country in the world to have 50 million people without healthcare, and even more without ADEQUATE healthcare.

Moderate but affordable co-pays for everyone and an end to frivolous lawsuits would be a huge step towards fixing it. Shady litigation practices are the reason for the mountains of paperwork required to process a patient through the hospitalization process.

To you and Ammo,
There are numerous problems with the current third party pay system, I could go on for hours. But look back to what riddler said. 4 year waiting periods. I've worked with professionals from the UK and Canada, and I don't think people know what they are asking for when they claim to be "for" universal healthcare.

I'm a sound NAY!

Agreed ... higher co-pays and deductibles, significant tort reform that limits provider liability, and pre-tax medical savings accounts (MSA's) for employees would be a good start.

Hell NO!

And to all of you voicing the false information that EVERY person in this country does not have access to health care, get yourselves informed people before you start spouting lies.....

No. I do however have free health care for my children because of my situation. I have to pay for my medicare and my wife is uninsured. There is a local clinic sponsored by the government that my wife can go to in order to get reasonablely priced health care if she needs it. Otherwise she just goes to our local doctor who is not that expensive.

this is imo the biggest problem.....

i can travel all across the country, maybe even the world using a visa card and rest assured every purchase will be on that bill when in comes.....

but you give your health care card at the hospital and all the different groups don't get the info that need it....you get bills, send information, wait for approval....

its a big mess, now i'm glad i have insurance, but it seems like it could go much smoother in regards to paperwork....

Two things IMO drive up the costs and they're intertwined.

1. Work conditions (number doctors/nurses per person).
2. Ridiculous lawsuits.

You would not believe how understaffed your average hospital ward is or how many patients a doctor sees in a single day... and the same applies to surgeons. Not a good thing for the guy that is cutting on you to be doing surgery after surgery after surgery all day long IMO.

This sort of things leads to increased accidents/malpractice suits.
That leads to higher malpractice insurance.
That leads to the doctors & hospitals having to do whatever they can to boost productivity to offset the costs, which means more work from each person.
Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

In short, I see it as the evil created by two industries: The Hospitals and the Insurance Companies. They are like two giant leeches sucking this country dry.

When you have doctors, who are some of the highest paid professionals in the country, quitting their practices because they can't make any money because their insurance premiums are so high... there's some fundamental flaws in things that need serious attention. My aunt was just telling me about a friend of hers on Thanksgiving... a doctor who had NEVER had a suit filed against him.... closed up his practice for just this reason. A guy that had NEVER had a single lawsuit during his 30 years of practice had his insurance premiums get so out of control that it was no longer worth it for him to continue his practice.

The net effect of this all is that it is no longer financially worthwhile for people to get medical degrees, which also helps fuel the over worked situation above as Hospitals still have legally mandated staffing levels to adhere to, but they now have a smaller labor pool to grab from.

It all creates for a massive downward spiral that feeds itself. Find a way to fix this, to break the chain, and things will get better.

Yeah, get rid of lawyers. <img src="/images/graemlins/rolleyes1.gif" alt="" />

And for the vote ... a big "nay" from me.

This is your typical "sounds good" on the outside for voters but can never work in reality. Sure, everybody would LIKE to be able to afford healthcare and provide some services to those who need it, but letting the Federal Government do that is a BIG mistake. Just about everyone here that's actually *in* healthcare has said "no" ... and just about everybody I've talked to in countries that have universal healthcare have complained about bad service and long wait times.

And to piggyback on that: you talk about the shortage of doctors, but there is a HUGE shortage of nurses too (which you mentioned, but did not get into). My aunt and my mother-in-law are both nurses. My aunt wants to leave nursing because she's being vastly overworked and underpaid, for the amount of work she is doing.

My mother-in-law tells me that hospitals are so desperate for nurses that they are bringing in nurses from, say, the Philipines to fill the bill. Two problems with that....are they legally brought here? and can they speak and understand English well enough, especially in an emergency type situation (think operating room).

Now, I know that nurses are paid well, or so it seems. But talking to my aunt, she says that yes, she's paid well, but she's actually underpaid for the amount of work/paperwork that she has to do in order to ge that pay.

Yes, we all have access to medical care.....IF WE CAN AFFORD IT. I do not have health insurance through my work and doubt that I will have it any time soon. So if something isn't broken or I'm not bleeding to death.....then I can't go to the doctor's because I cannot not AFFORD a $75 office visit to be told that I have a cold.

edit: And no I'm not for Universal Health care, but I am all for fixing a broke assed system that not everyone can afford. There has to be some way to fix the system we have. (and whomever said get rid of the lawyers? good idea but why not also say get rid of the trigger happy lawsuit junkies that are making it so difficult on those of us that can't afford decent health care?) jmo

and to build even further... how about how hospitals will regularly have a bunch of Nuring Assistants (not even close to the same thing as a nurse) that will work that shift under the license of the one nurse and if the Nursing Assistant screws up, it goes against the Nurse, which then screws the Nurse's insurance premiums.

Why do the hospitals do this? because they can somehow legally get away with it and they can pay the assistants a fraction of what they can the actual nurse.

I had a roommate for ages that was in nursing school and last I knew was working the Cardiac ICU at the Cleveland Clinic...she used to tell me all kinds of stuff about how screwed up the medical labor practices in this country are.

You forgot "lawyers". <img src="/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> The insurance companies wouldn't be charging such outrageous premiums if doctors weren't getting sued for the tiniest of mistakes. Granted, there are plenty of legitimate malpractice suits out there, but people these days sue for the dumbest of things. If a scar doesn't properly heal up the way a patient would like it to... they sue. If there's a 50% chance of surviving a risky surgury, and they die ... the family sues. Granted a doctor may win some of these cases, but that's still plenty of legal fees that's taken from the "insurance" and causes rates to go up for everyone else.

But that's not the only thing. Sometimes people get rewarded huge "punitive damage" sums for pain and suffering that might be minimal at worst, or not even the fault of the doctor.

Atomic,

You need tocheck and see if there are any community health clinics in your area. The charge based on what you make and our cheaper than normal health care outlets. Youngstown has one right next to Ursaline High School. I would expect that something similar should be near Mt. Union.

Actually P, I have checked into it and the closest clinic is in Canton, Youngstown or bigger city. It really is disgusting to me that there aren't any clinics to help the folks that are considered poverty level. Besides, I don't trust praticing physicians.....why are you still practicing after going to school for 12 years? (still don't have it right?) I do have a holistic Doctor that I go to. Nothing to go in and tell her what's wrong...just have to purchase the all natural remedies....I end up paying 1/3 of what I would by going to a practicing physician.

PPE, as you said, the Nursing Assistants get to do alot of stuff that they were never allowed to do before. And yes the nurse on shift gets the short end of the shaft.

Atomic, you will NOT be turned down if you walk into any hospital. You do have access to healthcare. There are plenty of programs to help you. You do have to do a little leg work to find them and if you can afford nothing, there is medicaid.

http://www.chci.com/Locations/LocatorGrid.htm

If you don't trust them I understand but there is one as close as louisville. My wife has been to the clinic in Youngstown to get her shots so she can sub.

Malpractice suits and the insurance to protect yourself from them is the single biggest factor in the cost of healthcare in this country.

The thing I keep wondering is the people that have a catastrophic illness that puts a family into bankruptcy.. Surely there is a better way somehow?

Malpractice? Or the claims of malpractice?

Heck, my stupid aunt wanted to sue a hospital because my cousin got into an accident and broke something like his leg and his collarbone. When he went to the hospital, he complained of leg pain ... so they treated his leg. When he got home his collarbone hurt really bad, so the next day they took him back and found he had a broken collar bone. And so she said she wanted to sue because they didn't diagnose the broken collar bone ... as if it's their job to check every single bone he isn't complaining about. <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I almost wanted to drive up to San Francisco and slap her for even thinking about raising my health care another cent. <img src="/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Well, catastrophic insurance is very cheap....people should at least get that. It won't pay for your doctor visits etc., but if something huge happens, you will be covered. You wouldn't believe the write offs we make every year at the hospital for people who can't pay....it's astronomical.

I say this alot on this board, and it always seems to come around again, especially when discussing the spiraling costs of living in the US.

We need to fix the judicial system, in order to fix so many of our other social issues.

As long as frivolous lawsuits are allowed to milk money from business' and people, we will see those payouts passed on to the rest of us in the form of higher prices for goods, insurance and services.

<img src="/images/graemlins/rofl.gif" alt="" /> Sure jack the premiums up to 8,000 per year, up the deduct. up to 5,000, and let the insurance company get away with only paying for half of all scripts. Thats the way to go <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Sure they won't turn you down, but they will turn you over to a collection agency in a heart beat <img src="/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> My daughter has clinicels three days a week (eight hour shifts) plus another 12 hours a week in class, yet Kent State lists her as a "part time" student which caused her to not be dropped from her insurance. Since she also works 47 hours per week at two jobs she makes to much money to recieve free health care, and she has racked up over 10,000 in medical bills in the last year.