DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Robiskie waived

Robiskie isn't that hard to figure out...when he got to the NFL,his lack of work ethic got him demoted.
Celebrated backyard hero at Chagrin Falls...really had no competition at the varisty level. Didn't really anything..most everything was handed to him.
very comfortable upbringing......got by on atheletism. Had a good career at OSU.
but as soon as he got to the pro's....well his lack of hunger..desire and fire sank him....its not like there were elite WR's on the Browns roster the last 3 years....Stuckey,Massaqoiu, beat him out for playing time...
He held out for a bigger payday thinking he better than what he was.
I don't know what Mangenius saw in the guy...but any coach with half a mind would have took him in RD 4...
think about it,of all the NFL players from the Cleveland area..what area do they come from........Ginn...Whitner..Evans...Gibson...

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Poor Gabbert...they're ruining him....a 21yo rook from a shotgun system. Everybody said and knew he has to SIT 1 full season at least and those idiots trot him out day 1 with the only WR corps worse than ours (Robo signing just proves it), their #1 WR is a slot guy, Thomas...and their #2 Hill, couldn't get playing time before 49ers drafted Crabtree and had no WR, he was a bust in SF

He looks completely lost and should have never seen the field so quickly

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And yet, because of circumstances last year (DelHomme/Wallace), and a simlilarly weak WR corps here, you can't see at least some similarity in Gabbert's and McCoy's situations?

Now look... you can refute this basic observation of mine with tons of stats, individual performance breakdowns (based on YPA, completion average, QB passer rating by game, etc. [ad nauseum]... but even you (and my good bud 'Toad ) can see the similarities between these two cases.

I'm not at all casting doubt upon you guys and your assessment of Colt's personal performance thus far. In fact, I even gave acknowledgement to your respective breakdowns of his on-field abilites in previous threads....

But between You and me, Django... is there no room in your observations of Colt's overall performance that lends equal weight to our respective teams' "mitigating circumstances" that you so willingly (and seemingly eagerly) trot out to explain Blaine Gabbert's dismal performance?

Even the casual observer must admit that a surface observation of our 2 teams' 'supporting cast' show startling similarities. As a result, both QB's show startling similarities in their weaknesses. In fact, one could exchange them from week to week during the NFL season, and see virtually the same results from both teams. So....

Why does Gabbert (based upon his newness and bad supporting cast) get a pass from you ... while McCoy seems to get your most stringent of "pure positional football" critique?

On one hand, you say that the Jagz "are ruining" Gabbert, but on the same day, you'll state (in other threads) that McCoy was "never NFL QB material."

How do you reconcile these two (seemingly diametrically opposed) observations?

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If you can answer this most basic of questions (from an admittedly non-techno-minded fan), I'll start to give your opinions more weight that I have up 'til present. I admit up-front that I'm not much more than a casual fan... and that I come here to learn from those who may know "The Game" more intimately than I... but I have learned a few things in my years here. Some of your P'sOV just seem to contradict themselves... and I need some clarification, if you don't mind.

Regarding the similairties of yours and Overtoad's observations about our current QB, I can say only this: at the very least, I have almost 10 years of history sitting in a car at "Mr. Toad's Wild Ride" (hehehe) . I have a feel for what he thinks, why he posts as he does, and what he believes is best for Our Team. You.... not so much- yet. 'Toad and I have agreed on a good many things over the years, and disagreed on just as many. One of the reasons that we've had a 'meeting of the minds' is because of his (and perhaps to a lesser extent, my) consistency of posts.... and you and I haven't yet formed that history. I look forward to establishing the same relationship with you that I enjoy with 'Toad. You can help in that regard, with your very next response to me.


Because.... I'm tellin' you, Dawg- this latest post of yours smacks of a severe 'double standard'... and I want to give you a chance to flesh out your thinking before I blow you off as just another 'opinionated blowhard.'

Now's your chance with me. Please- take your time, press your point well, and remember: I love words. I will parse your response to the last nano-angsrom of detail- it's just how I'm built. (I'm a Virgo- with OCD tendencies, yo- )

Tell me (and all casual DT'ers).... How is Blaine Gabbert any different from Colt McCoy at their respective career points.... and why do you show sympathy for one, while putting the other under a scanning electron microscope?

(Seriously) inquiring minds wanna know.

I just look at the abilities he had when he came into the league, and how completely he disappeared here, added to the fact that we have had absolute crap at QB here during his time here, and it's just a bit of a gut feeling.

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They will pick up the remainder of his contract.

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If that is all it costs them then what's the big deal about them using a "high waiver" to pick him up (not sure who made that observation earlier in this thread) ?

I don't think that Robiske caught on to the pro game as quickly as he could have, for whatever reason. He did, however, seem to catch on pretty well at the end of last season.

He also played well in the preseason.

Then he vanished when the season started.

The team really seemed to want to get Little into the gameplan, and Shurmur even said something about trying to target him in games.

For some reason, that we will probably never know, the team decided that Robiske wasn't going to be part of the gameplan. Now he has a chance to go to another team, with another struggling QB, but we'll see how he does there. If he succeeds, then I thin there has to be some examination of our systems here.

As far as the other poster asking about a high waiver claim ..... it just means that one of the first teams who could claim Robiske did. There could have been no other claims, or there could have been 10 other claims. We just don't know. If the Packers, for example, had claimed him and been awarded him, then we would have known that every team passed on claiming him.

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But MoMass found the field, and while he didn't exactly light it up, he's made lemonade out of lemons.

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Hardly lemonade. More like water with a slice of lemon. The dude's OK but frankly, if Robo was a wasted pick then MoMass is pretty damn close to that.

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The simple answer is UPSIDE and personal expectaton level (BS alert !)....

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There, I fixed it for ya

Can i piggyback on that with another question?

The general consensus is that JDR is going to get the axe after this season, which will send Gabbert into his 2nd system in as many years and he will be a shotgun spread offense system QB learning his second system in as many years. If he still struggles at that point...where would things fall for him?

He would be in a position that compared to today, by week 8 should he be really getting it? If they still have Mike Thomas, Jason Hill, Kasim Osgood, Mike Sims-Walker, and Brian Robiskie as their wideouts.

He would have an additional TC in his system than Colt got, but lets consider it all things the same. Comparing Gabbert next year around week 8 would be similar to Colt today. If Gabbert isnt "getting it" by then and their offense is stagnant next year would it be time to move on?

Remembering that both QBs have come from primarily shotgun spread offenses that make their lives infinitely easier as a QB, they have to learn the pro game, and 2 seasons with 1 TC is just not enough time. Many scouting reports of Colt said his arm strength isnt a concern, and while it is when he throws back foot, it isnt when he plants (then its his decisions that have been suspect). So I just plain dont agree with you there on the NFL throws.

So i ask...

If they fire Del Rio, does Gabbert need to "have it" by week 8 next year? Or before then? It cant be all about arm and feel...otherwise guys like Jamarcus Russell and DA wouldve been elite by now.

I look forward to Gabbert and think he's up against it, and it'd be his 2nd year in the system before being able to make a decision on him, which would take him into his 3rd season, and thats how I feel about Colt. Players arent made during the season, theyre made during the offseason, improvements get made during the season and thats what youll see here...

toad, you need to save this post. just take out mccoy and put a "______" and you can use it on the next cleveland qb too. hopefully you won't have to do that but might as well get more mileage out of your time if necessity dictates.

Gabbert is not like McCoy. They are both athletic, but McCoy doesn't have the strong arm that Gabbert has. BG has made a few throws that surprised me and I had to say "well, he really does have a legit arm." Haven't seen that from McCoy.

However, Gabbert also sucks. He's bad. He wasn't that good in college. His senior year, he threw the ball 475 times. He threw 16 TDs (That's one TD for every 30 passes.) He averaged 6.7 YPA, which is pretty pedestrian. He managed to do this in a conference which plays absolutely no defense whatsoever. How in the world did he ever get drafted in the first round?

He has not been better his rookie year in the pros. He's got a legit running threat, which lends him an advantage McCoy doesn't have. Django is right, it would have been better for him had he sat and learned, but that doesn't mean he would have been good. He's still pretty lost. As out-of-place as McCoy has looked for much of the year, Gabbert has looked worse.

Anyways, I don't really see the two as comparable guys. Gabbert is completing 45% of his passes with 5.24 YPA on the season. That is abysmal. I'd prefer not to compare our starting QB to the worst one in the league.

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When McCoy finishes this year, we'll know whether or not we need to see any more of him to fairly decide if he "has it."

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why wait, you've already made up your mind.. even if you could probably say about the same thing for most QB's this early in thier careers..

I can respect that...I disagree in one place though. I honestly think that McCoy has progressed or improved his game as this season has gone on. It hasnt showed up in numbers, but it has showed in execution to me.

Ive seen Colt hit on an increasing number of short slants, drags, and outs as each and every week has passed. Early in the season he wasnt doing that, he was finding guys in space and not much else.

Ive seen Colt hold the pocket much better. Well, maintain the pocket and throw from it much better as weeks have gone on. One thing he hasnt done particularly is step into his throws or buy himself time within the pocket. At the same time. Where his drops and the protection take him, he doesnt have a whole lot of room to step up into said pocket and throw, or dodge an edge rusher and not step into a blitzing linebacker. I couldnt be honest with myself or anyone else if i knew that it was a McCoy issue or a protection issue. I think its somewhere in the middle, and a feel kinda thing. He's done a decent job at times stepping through the pocket and getting out and running. He hasnt rolled out wide of the pocket to escape pressure very often in the past few games, which was something django lamented a number of times early in the season, using the backyard football analogy. But I personally think he's managed the pocket much better than in week 1. By no means do i think his pocket presence is "there" yet, and needs more work and that comes with the comfortability within the system and his OL (which has played only 7 games together, and since pashos has returned only 3, which as weve seen from the Cosey Coleman Joe Andruzzi years, continuity is huge) which is still also a work in progress and in the process of gelling.

Interestingly enough, the plays where he has had a ton of time hes made a bad decision more times than not. I kinda feel like this is also not completely on him. Yes he has to make a better decision, but im not sure our pass catchers know what to do after the route ends, its been documented that they jog the ends of their routes...its hard to hit an open guy when all guys are essentially done with the play. Not to put it all on him, if you got nothing, throw it away or escape, or direct traffic or something. It goes on both him and the pass catchers, dont give up on the play, and make smart choices.

As for throwing the ball. I'll continue to say, when he plants he throws a very good ball. That is enough for me to put the arm strength issues to bed. However...his footwork has been awful and he hasnt planted, but its something ive seen improvement from in the past couple games. I think he is planting more from the Seattle game to the SF game i think he did much more than the Tennessee game. While it hasnt shown in results on the scoreboard, in fact that could even be seen as regression in terms of production. But...he has hit on deep outs, slants, and curl routes...He's hitting the routes he needs to. I think he's doing his job as a QB, i think he is grasping the offense as it has been stated. Now that he has that grip on it, we can see the improvement.

He has made line, protection, and play audibles in the past 2-3 games and thats great to see, thats trust in yourself, the system, and its trust from the coach. I'm glad he's doing that now, and i hope to see more of it, and more of his adjustments working.

Those are things i put on him and think he is improving with...can you dispute those claims im making? I would love to hear how i'm wrong...i coach basketball not football, so any claims to know about the game all come from my general knowledge of sport in general (which i obssess over so i think i know enough to get by) and my years and years of watching 24 weeks of football every year.

there are things that i dont put on Colt and i think have not hampered his development but have hampered our ability to get a good read on his improvement.



These are those.

WR production. It's been documented that our WRs dont run crisp routes. They round off cuts which makes it tough to get separation because theres no cut. Theres no plant and explosion that can freeze a defender and get a step on him. More so, and Greg Little i think is the biggest culprit (at least on his short slants) is that when they do make those quick cut routes and Colt puts it on them it gets knocked down by the DB (do those go into the drops catergory? because if it does...22 [or 24] drops seems shockingly low to me because we've had that happen so many times) and Watson with LBs has had the same problem in the routes between the hashes.

Colt not throwing downfield. Its hard to hit a WR downfield when there isnt one, or when you dont have enough time to. I have seen several plays and Fouts pointed em out too last week, that we simply dont have anyone farther than 15 yards downfield. Thats not Colt's fault then if hes searching for an open guy within 15 yards and they got 6 back into coverage (or more if they rush 4). The defenses have been flooding short zone areas and that makes it tough on any QB to find an open guy when theres opposite colors where everyone is running. Playcalling needs to start stretching the D more so we can get guys out of the short zones and free Colt's guys up. An example...the first ball Norwood caught...he went 10 yards and turned...when Colt hit him on the turn, that ball carried past 3-4 defenders all covering a zone. its difficult to expect a QB to do that 30-40 times a game. Theres just too many defenders unless youve got a Welker.
1 more point on that...I wonder how many times we have a WR running routes thats not a part of the progression as Cribbs alluded to last week. Thats something we cannot know. If we send guys downfield with no intention of looking at them, its more of a waste than keeping him within 15 yards.

With the time thing...Colt gets hit in the middle of his drops more often than any QB should. Its led to Cutler being questioned as a good QB and many other QBs to just be out of the league or damaged goods (Couch, Carr, etc...). I think he can do a better job avoiding the rush and keeping the pocket there, because he does tuck it quickly now...but id rather see that than him get blasted like he did by Ahmad Brooks (thats his name yea?) v. SF or by Chancellor like he did v. Sea.
Ive read the criticism on here that as soon as any semblance of pressure comes at him he looks at his feet and dances around...I dont agree with that as i think he does take his eyes off of downfield briefly, i think he looks for his place to escape, but once he finds it he looks for a pass catcher on his way out...but i think he does a great job protecting the ball while escaping...i think thats great personally. I see too many QBs that pretend their like Vick and just one hand it or hold it softly with 2 hands in front of em (like Flacco) and lose it. Until you can feel comfortable with the time youre getting, and know where and when your pass catchers will adjust their routes to get open when you scramble, its hard to keep eyes downfield effectively. Most QBs that do that well have been playing in the same system with the same guys for years.

the drops...22 is too many, while those numbers dont increase him to good talent, it improves his numbers, and it would keep the chains moving.

Another thing i cant fault him for...the mistakes. The center exchanges, well that goes half on him...but when you get stepped on like you did, its not just Colt that drops balls in a spot like that, especially setting up for a handoff or playaction. But...misrun routes, false starts, holdings, missed blitz pickups, or general misreads by the OL dont fall on Colt. We shoot ourselves in the foot constantly, and when i do place blame on Colt is when he overthrows his guys which he seems to do once weekly now, or throws off his back foot, or into a double team. but that only accounts for about 45-55% of our drive killing mistakes. The rest, fall on our other guys...and if you cut that number in half...those drive killin mistakes...we move the ball better and it leads to points, and we play better football.


One other thing of note...how many short fields has our defense gotten us? I commend them for the great job their doing...but they dont create meaningful turnovers for us very often. They did early, which was great, but our offense was worse at that point in terms of moving the ball, and it didnt help (cept for those TD throws v. Cincy)


Are any of those, things you can place blame on colt for? if so...please help me.


Toad, YTown, Django, youre the 3 that have the most open distaste for Colt's performance on the field and i respect your opinions...so can you give me some insight on those things ive stated? dispute or debunk or whatever you can do to say these things are things that ARE in fact his fault, or things he hasnt actually improved with...I wanna know, and please dont just say he hasnt, give me some info to back up those statements, it helps me see it

Just read your post,, my eyes are hurting

Honestly,, some interesting insights.. I'm wondering how those guys will respond.. should be fun.

Thanks King...

I have to disagree with McCoy's work in the pocket.

He may have improved slightly, but he's still nowhere near NFL average. He should be working in the pocket in short areas, stepping to avoid pressure and find a throwing lane. He really seems to do A or B, but not both at the same time. So, where an average QB would take a step up to avoid the pressure and put himself in position to throw the ball, McCoy takes a step to avoid pressure, then a step to find a lane, then throws the ball. Sometimes he doesn't even seem to look for a lane, and we get that idiotic jump throw crap.

McCoy appears to have a problem common to many "mobile" QBs. He trusts his legs more than his eyes. He doesn't process what is going on around him, and he moves without a plan. he is used to using superior athleticism and running ability in college, but this isn't college. Frye had the same problem. Charlie Frye probably ran or moved himself into more sacks than the line actually gave up. Now McCoy has had some pressure, but he has also "pressured himself" on occasion. The edge blitzes, for example, are almost always the QB's responsibility. He has to see it, process it, and immediately attack the area vacated by the blitzing DB ... because that usually puts his receiver in single coverage against a 3rd or 4th CB, a S, or even a LB. Those are mismatches to exploit .... but the QB has to do it.

I was stunned in this last game, because I actually saw a couple of NFL caliber throws out of McCoy. I have long said that any QB can complete 50%+ of his passes in the 3-7 yard range. In fact, I bet it's much, much higher for most upper tier guys. Most QB probably throw 80% or so of their passes in the 3-7 yard range, 10-15% in the 10 yard middle, between the LB and S, and maybe 5-10% deep passes. Most QBs mix up their throws, working in slants, digs, and sit down patterns with outs, seams, stop and go, and fly patterns. An NFL QB has to be somewhat consistent on all of these. I have seen McCoy throw 1 medium out this year, and that was in the last game. McCoy has thrown deep, but it is so rare that it almost never happens. he is so far behind the rest of the NFL in this regard that it's ridiculous. Could it be design? Perhaps, but even when he gets a guy wide open on a fly, the ball is just as likely to be overthrown as anything else ....and even caught balls are more a result of the receiver making a great play than the QB accurately delivering the ball in stride.

His arm strength is still a major question mark for me. It is sometimes hard to know for sure because his footwork and mechanics are flat out awful, but on the fly patterns the ball isn't there quickly. The ball is lofted more than lasered. The receivers have to slow down on the majority of his deep passes. That one fly to Cribbs, I believe, where McCoy missed him so badly that it was like they had never practiced together was particularly appalling. Those are bread and butter for a good QB. They are slippery and elusive for an average to poor QB.

As far as the receivers ..... why aren't they running crisp routes? Maybe because they know they aren't going to get the ball, and maybe because McCoy might get them killed. Seriously. I think that McCoy must lead the league in leading his receivers into potential vegetative states. How many times have we seen Browns receivers thrown to short ...... while 2 or 3 players are waiting to destroy them?

I'm also not convinced that the receivers routes are as bad as all that. I have heard some speculation, but really haven't heard Shurmur bring that up as a major point. Little is, obviously, young and inexperienced. if he's not ready to play then he shouldn't be on the field. I know that Cribbs struggles with route running. That's the same story as the rest of his receiving career. Accept it or move him. Robiske was a precise route runner and never saw the ball. he was probably the best pure route runner on the team. Norwood is another guy reputed to run excellent routes. He's just now seeing the field, so do you put that on the receivers, or on the coaches? Be that as it may, the 2 best route runners on the team combined for very few receptions.

As far as receivers not going downfield .... that is something I have noticed on occasion ..... but is that the chicken, or the egg? It's not an every down occurrence, but it does happen from time to time. What good does it do to send guys downfield if the QB can't hit them,? What good does it do to send guys further than 15 yards on outs if that is the limit of the QB's ability? Outs have to be rifled in there or they can become pick 6 in a hurry. I honestly don;t think that McCoy can hit 15 yard outs with any great consistency. His accuracy on fly patterns is horrible. There's no heavy duty route there ..... it's just go and get open and I'll throw you the ball. That's not happening. Even last year's bread and butter passes in the seam to Watson have dropped off greatly.

There are a lot of things that could be somewhat team related, but there is also enough that is pure QB only to be concerned. Now we really have no choice but to ride out the rest of the year with McCoy, but I worry about the WR development doing that. Remember last year ... the difference between Delhomme's starts and McCoy/Wallace's starts. (early in the season) Delhomme made a lot of mistakes, but he got the receivers involved. McCoy and Wallace were taking the easy throws, and ignoring the outside and deeper patterns. Delhomme came back from injury and suddenly we had productive receivers.

Go look at Massaquoi's gamelog from last year, and try and pick out where Delhomme came back from injury.

2-46
1-9
0-0
1-5
5-55 (Atlanta, with Delhomme returning from injury)

Look at his biggest games ....

Atlanta 5-55
NE 4-58
Jacksonville 4-51
Carolina 4-52
Miami 4-81
Buffalo 3-43

Who was the QB for most of those games?

Robiskie had a nice close to the year last year, and it started with Delhomme throwing the ball to the WRs.

Cribbs was the beneficiary last year of playing the slot early on, and he did have some success early on.

Stuckey was the main receiver from the time he got to the team. What position did he play? Slot. Short passes.

If the QB does not throw the ball to the receivers, they cannot catch it. If he does not throw the ball to the receivers in space, they cannot gain YAC. If the QB is not accurate and quick with his throws, passes literally become handoffs into the line. The receiver has some responsibility, but he can do his perfectly, and if the QB doesn't throw him the ball, then it's useless. QBs make receivers, receivers don't make QBs.

Actually, the Carolina game was a 7 catch game, and he had 2 catches in each of the next 2 games.

My point is that Delhomme helped mentor McCoy a great deal last year, and stated that he had to get the receivers involved, and he worked to do just that when he was starting. McCoy even said that Delhomme was a big help to him.

I really think that McCoy misses not having someone in that role this year. I don't believe that Wallace embraces the "Mentor the young QB" role.

I already stated multiple times that McCoy GUESSES in the pocket...he has no pocket awareness....he either holds the ball too long and gets sacked or takes off/throws away way too early

Yeah, he has "improved" from running around like an idiot but I think that's something Shurmur has hammered into him as he seemed pretty angry about that in his post game pressers....for me, that's not much of an improvement..more like a requirement for even backup NFL QBs....now he at least stays IN the pocket....but he still has no pocket AWARENESS

the Browns predictability on offense combined with lack of talent is why this team is in the cellar as far as "chunk" plays go.
The Browns run the same plays out of the same formation same personel groupings...there is no deception in their offensive execution. Very little motion to get defenses out their alignments.
When defenses line up vs the Browns offense...their is no "overthinking" on their part..cause the Browns are so predictable.
The Browns lack of talent at RB and WR prevents them from creating mismatches down field in the passing game.
what I see is a ultra conservative offense....and maybe thats because of the lack of explosion at the RB and WR spots.
because the Browns can't run the ball...the Browns find themselves in 2nd and 3rd and long situations....
cause the Browns o-line can't pass block....teams rush 4 and drop 7 in coverage.they din't have to blitz a OLB or nickleback off the edge.
keep everything in front of you and let no one behind you......but thats easy for the D cause the Browns WR's down run deep routes...
they run curls...slants...drags..repeat.
welcome to the offense of 3 plays and punt.

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I really think that McCoy misses not having someone in that role this year. I don't believe that Wallace embraces the "Mentor the young QB" role.

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This^ is one of the reason why I was advocating going after Hasselbeck in FA.

I know Should 'da Could 'da Would 'da, but Jake Delhomme was a big help to Colt last year and he has nothing similar to that relationship on the sideline this season.

Good point.

any speculation on Wallace mentoring McCoy is all hear say.. no one knows what goes on in the meetings and behind the scenes.

There have been reports that Wallace does not embrace a strong mentoring role, and certainly not like Delhomme did.

Look at the 2 players on the sideline. When Delhomme was here, he was at McCoy's side, whether he had a great play, or had a bad play. Wallace is usually signalling plays, but that's about as far as any game communication appears to go between the 2.

Thanks for the response, Dawg. I'm also happy to see you laying out opinion as just that. Too often opinion in here is stated as fact, and although on msg boards it's an understood thing, it never hurts to put in a qualifier or two. Good form!

I didn't watch BG during his college years nor did I watch Colt, so I'll accept your observations of them both at face value. At any rate, you were questioned, and gave a thought-out answer that made sense to me. That's all I can ask for.

Thanks for your time, Django

jk
I had always hoped Robiskie would be a Brian Brennen Joe Jur. type of player but it never really panned out. I saw some flashes out of him and wish him the best with the Jags.
Really hurts that our strength at the start of the season (RB) has fallen so low that we are cutting players to bring in back-up practice squad players now.

thats fair, and ive seen the most backed up information from you, so i'm okay with that.


I dont think he's there by any stretch, but I see someone who has the look of someone who can get there. While there are still plenty of questions, I see him systematically and aggressively working to answer them, and its been an excruciatingly slow process which has had him take a step back to take 2 forward, and ive been seeing that alot, and thats where I can see the criticisms coming from.

I think all his criticisms are completely warranted 100%, but i dont find that writing him off, or saying he cant do it or wont do it is unwarranted, because of the work ethic and adjustments in his game...

Compare him to to DA or BQ, DA was supposedly making strides to improve his short game throws and the only thing he really did was destroy his downfield abilities, and BQ was supposedly improving his mid-range to downfield game and there was just no evidence of it at any point. Colt has had issues with the pocket, holding it, and hitting throws downfield or outside the numbers, and while its still not there, its better than it was from week 1 to today.


to YTown, as youve mentioned he's still not there yet in the pocket, but stepping to avoid the rush, and then stepping into a throwing lane...the more one does that the more comfortable they get in doing that, then those two can become one. You'll see it happen in time...maybe not tomorrow, maybe not against STL next week, but before the end of the season i think youll see him doing that.

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to YTown, as youve mentioned he's still not there yet in the pocket, but stepping to avoid the rush, and then stepping into a throwing lane...the more one does that the more comfortable they get in doing that, then those two can become one. You'll see it happen in time...maybe not tomorrow, maybe not against STL next week, but before the end of the season i think youll see him doing that.

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Maybe he will, and maybe he won't.

The world is full of former NFL players who could have been great "if only". "If only" gets more players retired than probably anything else in football.

Charlie Frye could have had a decent career "if only" he could have managed the pocket. DA could have been a solid starter "if only" he could have improved his short passing touch. Quinn .... OK, I'm not gonna strain credulity ......

Anyway ..... every guy who struggles has things that he needs to improve upon. Many may appear to improve a little .... and that's as far as they go. In fact, if you look at damn near every player who has ever been cut or traded away ...... he could have done so much more "if only" ......

The thing that worries me about McCoy in regard to his footwork in the pocket is that this is fairly simple. Feel the rush, and adjust in the pocket while looking downfield. It's simple ... but it's also incredibly difficult. It is something that a lot of guys have at least some experience with when they hit the NFL. It is why so many shotgun/spread QBs flop. They never learned that skill, they didn't practice it for years in college, and they have an entire set of bad habits (from an NFL standpoint) to break before they can start developing good habits.

Further, I don't think that an exception ... be it a throw to the outside, hitting one receiver in stride once in a while, or effectively working the pocket once in a while is enough. McCoy does have the rest of the year to improve and show that he can adjust and become the guy at QB. I think that he has a long hard road ahead of him .... because this goes against everything he does instinctively. Even Brady Quinn, who practiced this very skill in college on a regular basis, struggled with it in the NFL. The NFL is a whole 'nother beast. A QB cannot get away with making slow decisions in the pocket. (especially in this offense) He needs to see what is happening, understand it, and make the throw to the open guy. When pressured, he needs to be able to react as he has practiced, rather than ad libbing in the pocket. This not only helps him stay healthy, but it helps his line immensely. In simplest terms, if edge pressure means step up, middle pressure means roll out, and all out blitz means hit the hot route immediately, there can't be a lot of thinking about it. It has to be immediate.

Now I do think that McCoy might be able to learn this ..... but he has to unlearn everything he knows in order to do it. I wonder whether any QB can do that. The odds are long, and definitely stacked against him. He'll have to rest of the year to show what he can do, but IMHO, if he doesn't start lighting it up, or at least show major improvement in this regard, we'll be taking a QB high in next year's draft.

YTown,

I see the things you harp on and that Colt is struggling with...feel the rush, adjust/work inside the pocket, hit a receiver in stride...I see all that.

It is obvious that Colt is struggling...he needs to get better overall and better specifically at the things you mentioned.

However, the pocket - which should be typed in "quotes" - is very inconsistent...at best. You've effectively stated that it takes time for many college QBs to learn how to behave in the pocket. But when the pocket is as inconsistent as it's been this year. How is he supposed to get better at behaving in there?

My guess is that when the pocket actually IS there, he either tries too hard to make something happen - and do something outside his skill set - OR he is waiting for the shoe-to-drop and figures he better get rid of the ball before he gets killed.

It's either that he's just not "the" guy...or it's my last two paragraphs. I really can't tell.

I also see that he needs to hit his receivers in a better spot on the field. However, we just unceremoniously released one (recent) starter at WR and the other starter had no training camp in this offense and runs - reportedly - disinterested routes. Does he run crappy routes because of Colt or because HE simply isn't "the" guy? I really can't tell.

BTW, the "new" starter did not play football last year...anywhere...and is probably tied with Cribbs as our most-effective WR right now.

Defenses do not have to worry about our running game...at all...we have ZERO threats at RB.

Our feature back for 90% of last week - and all of this week - was not on an active roster a month ago. His backup was not playing football last week...anywhere. They have something like 19 combined practices in this offense.

Look, I see what you see about Colt...I just can't tell how much of it is him and how much of it is his situation.

I also get your point about "if only". If only Mangini didn't blow those (3) second round picks...if only Yates didn't retire...if only Steiny didn't get IR'd...if only we had an entire training camp with this new offense...if only Mitchell can get active on gameday...blah...blah...blah. I too am growing weary of the "if onlys".

Lastly, I told a fellow Browns fan last night...if you were trying to make up a crazy story about the possible predicament of an NFL team's season, you couldn't "make up" the circumstances we've faced this year...not in one's wildest imagination.

I understand that the pocket is unstable.

Many teams have unstable, and even worse pockets than we do. If the QB can only make plays when everything is perfect ..... then he won't be in the league for long.

I'm really not trying to beat up on McCoy. I saw some things last year that were somewhat encouraging. This year has gone all to hell though. He has lost damn near a full yard and a half from his yards/pass attempt.His completion percentage has gone down as well. At this point in the season, he has thrown 64 more passes than he did all of last year, yet only has 42 more yards. Last year he had 23 plays of 20+ yards, this year it's 11. That's a frightening trend. He seems to have lost his touch even for the seam passes he threw effectively last year. Players like Evan Moore are not getting those passes in stride like last year. Moore has the same number of receptions this year as last, yet he has 169 fewer yards. Last year he had 7 plays of 20+ yards. This year .... zero.


Getting back to the pocket ...... yes it has been inconsistent. However, even a young QB has to understand that things will not always be perfect. Pass protection is always part blocking and part QB awareness. That's a big reason why, no matter what schlubs the Colts run out on gameday .... Peyton Manning is rarely sacked. Look at Indy right now. Curtis painter is a far more "mobile" QB than Manning is ..... yet, he has been sacked 9 times in only 168 pass attempts. Last year, Manning was sacked only 16 times in 679 pass attempts. The QB plays a huge part in his own protection.

Look at a guy like Roethlisberger. He's been sacked 25 times already this year. He hangs in the pocket often to his own detriment. He'll take hits galore to make a play. I hate that piece of (*&$#(@%( ..... but he can play the position. He's an example of the guy who holds the ball way, way too long ..... and he pays a price for that ..... but he makes plays too.

McCoy is having problems with protections on occasion ..... but he also has quite a few clean pockets each and every game. He is often getting blitzed. He is seeing every coverage teams have to show. Teams are going to mix things up on him to try and confuse him. In other words, teams will treat him like they do almost every other rookie or young QB. He needs to see what they are doing. He needs to make the adjustments. He needs to take advantage when defenses unbalance themselves. He is the only one that can do it. Throwing 5 yard passes is not the solution. I have said this before, and I'll probably say it 100 times again ..... but any QB worth a damn can hit the 3-7 yard passes with regularity. Even the worse QB in the league can make those throws. I would venture a guess that the elite QBs complete those passes at around 70%. (or higher in some cases) McCoy is throwing those types of passes almost exclusively. He is missing on most of his other passes.

OK, I found it on ESPN:

Colt McCoy is completing 72% of his passes thrown behind the line.
He completes 61.2% of his passes thrown 1-10 yards.
He completes 42.9% of his passes thrown 11-20 yards.
He completes 41.7% thrown 21-30 yards, and 18.2% thrown 31-40 yards.

Let's compare that to the rookies:

Andy Dalton.
Behind the line: 74.4%
1-10: 65.8%
11-20: 53.5%
21-30: 45.5%
31-40: 37.5%
41+: 33.3%

Dalton outperforms McCoy at all distances, and especially everything over 11 yards.

Cam Newton is almost unfair to compare, since he has been a house on fire ..... bt here are his splits .....

Behind the line: 89.1%
1-10: 64.9%
11-20: 47.6%
21-30: 48.5%
31-40: 36.4%
41+: 50%

Big differences there.

Christian Ponder:
Behind the line: 77.8%
1-10: 61.1%
11-20: 45%
21-30: 16.7%
31-40: 25%

Ponder has only thrown 6 passes in the 21-30 yard range on the season. and has completed 1.

If you start tearing into the splits, it tells a real story. Look at average yards/pass at the varying distances. McCoy under-performs at every level. Looking at just the Behind the LOS and 1-10 yard distances, you can see how rough things have been with him at QB.

McCoy:
Behind LOS: 4.03 yards/attempt
1-10 yards: 5.07 yards/attempt.

Newton:

Behind the LOS: 7.39 yards/attempt
1-10: 5.32 yards/attempt

Ponder:
Behind the LOS: 6.33 yards/attempt
1-10 yards: 6.75 yards/attempt

Blaine Gabbert has struggled mightily this season, and his 1-10 yard passes are horrible. he completes only 44.7% of his passes in that 1-10 yard range, and averages only 3.82 yards/attempt. (In part due to his poor completion percent) He and McCoy are close as far as yards/completion at this distance, but poor ability to complete passes in this area really hurts him overall.

Gabbert was probably the least prepared QB to be thrown into the starting role. He really should have sat for a year to learn the nuances of the pro game ..... but the Jaguars "brain trust" decided that he should get thrown into the fire. We'll see how that works out for him ..... and them.

Of these rookies, arguably McCoy is 4th, at best. he would beat out Gabbert. Gabbert wins the "Thrown into an unwinnable situation" award.

I kind of went off on a bit of a tangent here ..... but I think that it's important to look at some of the splits that begin to tell more and more of the story.

Most of McCoy's 9 TD passes have come in the categories of "passes thrown" 11-20 yards (3) and 21-30 yards. (3) This is the biggest part of our scoring output. However, we rarely throw down the field. I don't know if that's on the coach, or on the QB. (or both) This is an area we MUST improve in if we want to win games. More down field passing is a must. Improving that yards/pass attempt is vital. Part of that is that McCoy has to work the pocket, and make the throws. We need to see if he can make those slightly deeper throws consistently. We need to see more outs to see if he can make those throws. We have a big receiver in Little, we should be running some fades to him. These are all things that are missing completely on the field, or that often turn onto ugly, ugly plays. However, we really are at a point where we need to know if McCoy can make those throws, and to make those throws, he needs to work the pocket better, and not lose his mechanics and footwork at the slightest hint of pressure. He needs to make his throws with far better accuracy .... as you said .... not just for completions .... but so they have the opportunity to do something after the catch.

He has a lot of things to work on, and probably the rest of this season only to show marked improvement.


End Chapter 16.

This offense is so watered down..it makes preseason offense look complex.
Its has no idenity.
The run blocking looks very straight up and bland.....zone blocking..in this offense..forget about it.....heck the o-line can't even pull a simple guard.
I have yet to see a counter for example out of this offense.
Next if you can't run the ball....you can't throw the ball effectively.
McCoy is getting very porous pass protection.
Even with teams rushing 4,McCoy is getting heat.
McCoy is taking what the defense gives him.
Since the Browns can't run..they can't run play action..if you can't run play action..you can't go deep.
and it doesn't help that the Browns have the slowest WR's in the NFL.....
Little isn't a true burner..Massaqoiu is big frame,but no speed...
Colt has made his share of mistakes this year....
but a bad o-line will lead you into bad habits.

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Many teams have unstable, and even worse pockets than we do.

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None that are any good. Big Ben takes a lot of hits because he fights extend plays and holds the ball a long time and he admits it, but I've never seen a QB get lit up after 2-2.5 seconds as often as Colt did yesterday.. the only reason it wasn't faster is thats because that is how long it takes an unblocked guy to run 6 yards from the LOS. He was taking his drop, turning, and getting hit.. not once but frequently.. so on those rare occassions when he does have something approaching 3.5-4 seconds to get set and scan the field, how is he supposed to act?

His internal clock is, for good reason, set to panic at about 3 seconds, which must feel like an eternity for him. He's not always getting hit right at 3 seconds but by 3 seconds, the majority of the time, the pocket has collapsed into his lap and the hit is coming.

Again ... watching the Steelers/Ravens game, Harrison was like a man possessed. He got constant pressure on Flacco. He sacked him 3 times, and pressured/flushed him many, many times.

It happens.

Quote:

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That was a pretty 2 minute drill to watch.

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In a different thread I broke down our 2 minute drill at the end of the half where we got the ball on our 42 and with the 2 minute warning and 3 timeouts we had time to run 5 plays and took 2 of our timeouts to the locker room... Baltimore got the ball with almost the exact same amount of time on the clock, the two minute warning and 2 timeouts on their own 8 yard line and managed to run 13 plays... We are not a well coached team.