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That's the biggest problem with this offense - we never get a first on the early downs, which forces us to convert 3rd down after 3rd down if we want to keep a drive alive. No team is able to do that consistently.
Interesting that you bring this up.
Look at the defenses that we've played this year, as currently ranked by points allowed per game.
1. Cincy (T8th - 19.5 ppg)
2. Indy (32nd - 30.0 ppg)
3. Miami (6th - 18.6 ppg)
4. Tennessee (T8th - 19.5 ppg)
5. Bye
6. Oakland (27th - 25.4 ppg)
7. Seattle (13th - 20.9 ppg)
8. San Fran (1st - 14.5 ppg)
9. Houston (2nd - 16.6 ppg)
10. St. Louis (T24th - 24.7 ppg)
11. Jax (5th - 18.0 ppg)
12. Cincy (T8th - 19.5 ppg)
13. BallsNoMore (3rd - 17.6 ppg)
14. Putzburgh (4th - 17.9 ppg)
15. Arizona (22nd - 23.6 ppg)
16. BallsNoMore (3rd - 17.6 ppg)
17. Putzburgh (4th - 17.9 ppg)
Look at how stingy those defenses are.
We played the first and 2nd stingiest defenses. We still have to play the 3rd and 4th stingiest defenses twice each. We've played the 5th stingiest defense and the 6th stingiest defense.
We're the 7th stingiest defense and we've played the two teams tied for being the 8th stingiest defense and still play one of them next week.
That puts us against each of the Top 7 stingiest defense (the Browns excepted).
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Quote:
26 might be low.....
It might be....I just took it to the playoff level....how far they go....who knows???
I just know they are a good team and things are starting to pull together for them after a rocky start.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Atlanta is a game behind NO who could win out. If Atlanta does not win their division they are behind Chicago and Detroit for the wild card and tied with Dallas or the NYG (one will win the division). So still a very good chance that they do not make the playoffs. They are also on the same roll that the Browns are: One in a row 
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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They are 4-1 their last 5 games....I think that is a roll.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Since the other thread got locked... In response to AD4MVP Quote:
I can understand that, I'm just never a fan of using a 1st rounder on a RB. I know he's a stud but just the way I've always been. I was against drafting AP as well and I know he's turned out to be nothing short of amazing for Minn.
I am usually very against a RB in the first round, but Richardson is an exception. I believe that in three years, he will be the best RB in the NFL. This is an AP type player. I don't think the Browns can afford to pass on that unless it's for a quarterback.
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Just giving you a hard time (notice the grin), but one of those wins one was a 7 pt win against a .500 Tennessee team that had it's starting Qb injured, 2 others were against the winless Colts and the 2-8 Panthers. The only "good" team they beat in that stretch was Detroit (6 pts) who had lost their 1st game the week prior. Given their history I wondered how they would handle it. And they didn't. I will give you the "roll" but hardly impressive. Now where near as impressive as the 4 of 5 we will take to end the season vs Balt (2), Pitt (2) and Ari (1)
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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to answer your question rom Mourg's mock thread:
Jester: If Luck, Barkley, Jones, Blackmon, Kalil, and Claiborne are all gone by our pick and no one wants to trade up with us, who would you pick instead of Richardson?
Coples, Kirkpatrick for sure...Coples is a nice buy low candidate come draft day if he checks out in interviews...lots of DL prospect get "motor" concerns (Taylor did, even Ngata)...I just think it comes with the position....fighting in the trenches every play results in some "lame" downs...he'd be a nice SDE upgrade for us with Sheard at WDE.
Kirkpatrick would be a very nice complement to Haden
I wouldn't draft a RT in the top 10 but I would take Reiff or Martin even before I'd select Richardson....RBs just aren't worht such an investment....there's a reason Ingram fell to the bottom of the 1st, RBs just don't have the value anymore...
3 arguments:
1. It's a passing league
2. RBs have shorter careers
3. RBs miss more games than any other position
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Ingram wasn't as good and he has a bum knee.
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Ingram isn't half the player Richardson is.
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Ask Buffalo what good it is to draft 1st round RBs, lol....they took 3 in the last 8-9 drafts or so....and who's their franchise RB? an UDFA
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Ask Buffalo what good it is to draft 1st round RBs, lol....they took 3 in the last 8-9 drafts or so....and who's their franchise RB? an UDFA
thats like me saying just draft a QB in the 6th.. ask the Pats how that worked out..
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For debate purposes:
2000 Jamal Lewis Baltimore Ravens
2000 Thomas Jones Arizona Cardinals
2000 Ron Dayne New York Giants
2000 Shaun Alexander Seattle Seahawks
2000 Trung Canidate St. Louis Rams
2001 LaDainian Tomlinson San Diego Chargers
2001 Deuce McAllister New Orleans Saints
2001 Michael Bennett Minnesota Vikings
2002 William Green Cleveland Browns
2002 T.J. Duckett Atlanta Falcons
2003 Willis McGahee Buffalo Bills
2003 Larry Johnson Kansas City Chiefs
2004 Steven Jackson St. Louis Rams
2004 Chris Perry Cincinnati Bengals
2004 Kevin Jones Detroit Lions
2005 Ronnie Brown Miami Dolphins
2005 Cedric Benson Chicago Bears
2005 Carnell 'Cadillac' Williams Tampa Bay Buccaneers
2006 Reggie Bush New Orleans Saints
2006 Laurence Maroney New England Patriots
2006 DeAngelo Williams Carolina Panthers
2006 Joseph Addai Indianapolis Colts
2007 Adrian Peterson Minnesota Vikings
2007 Marshawn Lynch Buffalo Bills
2008 Darren McFadden Oakland Raiders
2008 Jonathan Stewart Carolina Panthers
2008 Felix Jones Dallas Cowboys
2008 Rashard Mendenhall Pittsburgh Steelers
2008 Chris Johnson Tennessee Titans
2009 Knowshon Moreno Denver Broncos
2009 Donald Brown Indianapolis Colts
2009 Chris 'Beanie' Wells Arizona Cardinals
2010 C.J. Spiller Buffalo Bills
2010 Ryan Mathews San Diego Chargers
2010 Jahvid Best Detriot Lions
2011 Mark Ingram New Orleans Saints
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I think you can agree that Trent Richardson is a bit different than C.J. Spiller.
I am usually the leader of the don't-draft-a-running-back-in-the-first-round train. With Richardson, however, I am all for him. The guy has literally no weaknesses. He hasn't had injury issues, he has no character problems, he has good vision, he's a physical freak, he has great hands, he has phenomenal power, he has good speed, and he has good quickness.
He's a can't-miss prospect.
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Thanks for proving my point 2 with that list.....out of 22 RBs drafted 2006 or before only 1 is still a good workhorse (S.Jackson), the rest are #2 guys at best by now, a lot are out of the league.....we're talking 6th to 9th NFL season from 2006 to 2003 drafted backs...all 2002 or before guys are retired or out of the league because they sucked
if this can be copy/pasted I would love to see a 2nd, 3rd, 4th round RBs list
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Quote:
Ask Buffalo what good it is to draft 1st round RBs, lol....they took 3 in the last 8-9 drafts or so....and who's their franchise RB? an UDFA
So we shouldnt draft a RB because buffalo did?
Chiefs have drafted several defensive tackles, so we shouldnt draft defensive linemen?
Lions drafted 3 receivers, guess we cant draft a receiver either?
Bengals have taken quarterbacks, damn and here i thought we should draft one of those too.
Dude that is just one lame ass argument.
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Quote:
He's a can't-miss prospect.
...at a low value position...he'd be Alex Mack all over again....GB is the team to beat, right? They have 2 UDFAs and a 6th rounder in Grant, Kuhn and Starks at RB
Who are the league's best RBs playing for?
Peterson..2win team
L.McCoy...3 win team
F.Jackson...fading BUF team
MJD....3win team
McFadden...meh OAK team
S.Jackson....2win team
Rice, Foster, Forte, Gore and Turner play for contending teams....great RBs don't make a difference anymore
RBs don't make or break a team anymore....if a D wants to shut out a great RB, they can do so...
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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BTW, is there any doubt that in 2013 draft, Tyrann Mathieu (CB/S LSU) will end up a Raven or Steeler? The type of player they target and usually get
I'm coming home, I'm coming home, tell the world I'm coming home
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My point was that BUF still sucks and after wasting 3 1st rounders on RBs they have a completely different RB being their workhorse
DET's WRs are at least starting, KC's DL are at least starting etc you either missed my point or did so on purpose
RBs come out of the blue and go as fast as they appeared...ask Marion Barber or Kevin Smith who was out of football in a nano second just to resurface now....heck, we have experienced that ourselves with Hillis
Richardson is a great player, no doubt but he's overvalued
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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What about that DE/ OLB that Buffalo drafted a few years back.. where is he?
What about that DE/ OLB that the Jets drafted a few years back.. where is he?
What about that Safety that the Patriots drafted a few years back... where is he?
It's so easy to use that as a scapegoat.. all those RB's are good.. there is no doubt about it.. and most were at the top of the league at some point.
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Don't compare running back to center. That's Adrian Peterson vs. Nick Mangold. Are you saying you wouldn't take Adrian Peterson with a top ten pick? If you can honestly say no, you are insane. He is just as valuable as a wide receiver, and he will still be playing at a high level for nine years. That's not a shorter life span than a left tackle's.
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Quote:
Don't compare running back to center. That's Adrian Peterson vs. Nick Mangold. Are you saying you wouldn't take Adrian Peterson with a top ten pick? If you can honestly say no, you are insane. He is just as valuable as a wide receiver, and he will still be playing at a high level for nine years. That's not a shorter life span than a left tackle's.
He's probably got a 1-2 more good years left - and Peterson is really a best possible case for an RB.
I agree with you on Richardson, and would take him around 10 ---- if Hillis is gone. I would much rather resolve the Hillis situation amicably and add more talent elsewhere to go in the next season.
But we'll have to see how the Hillis situation plays out (something here that none of us know) - and go from there
~Lyuokdea
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Quote:
...at a low value position...he'd be Alex Mack all over again....GB is the team to beat, right? They have 2 UDFAs and a 6th rounder in Grant, Kuhn and Starks at RB
Who are the league's best RBs playing for?
Peterson..2win team
L.McCoy...3 win team
F.Jackson...fading BUF team
MJD....3win team
McFadden...meh OAK team
S.Jackson....2win team
Rice, Foster, Forte, Gore and Turner play for contending teams....great RBs don't make a difference anymore
RBs don't make or break a team anymore....if a D wants to shut out a great RB, they can do so...
Same could be said for LTs with Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Its a dumb argument. I could also use this analogy on QBs with Alex Smith and the 49ers.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Quote:
Same could be said for LTs with Joe Thomas and Jake Long. Its a dumb argument. I could also use this analogy on QBs with Alex Smith and the 49ers.
Good point with LT's -- don't get the Alex Smith analogy.
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Peterson is still only 26 years old. LaDainian Tomlinson was extremely productive until he turned 30 and still had a good year then. And LT received more carries than AP in all but one of his first four seasons (had one less carry in his third year).
To use a more powerful back as a comparison, Jamal Lewis was extremely productive through his age-30 season, in which he gained 1,304 yards and 4.4 yards per carry.
With this in mind, I think AP should be productive for at least three more years, maybe more.
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I dont believe in top 20 linebackers, 1st round centers, 1st round RTs, top 10 receivers and 1st round guards unless they appear to be super rare type players.
Haven't seen a linebacker in the last 15 that i would have taken top 20 besides Urlacher.
Never seen a center worth a first.
RT prospects McNeil, Shawn Andrews and Andre Smith looked to be the rare types. Smith is starting to look worth it but injuries killed first 2 years. Actually bengals messed up and he will be a FA this year lol
Receivers we have been blessed with some of the greatest ever over the last couple in Calvin Johnson, Green and Andre Johnson. Wasn't hard to spot and Edwards wasn't on that list lol. Neither is Blackmon though and I do like the kid.
Guard you dont take in the first unless you can match with a great tackle. Position becomes wasted next to average.
RBs is a different breed. It is a position that, thanks to everyone playing the run so poorly, the average back can look like a good back and frankly there haven't been a lot of special backs over the last decade.
The special back can make everyone better. He takes pressure off the QB and defense. The OL goes from they suck last week to wow they are great this week when the only thing that changed was a back that had the vision to find the hole and the athleticism to make that one guy miss in that hole and the speed to get through it before it closes up.
Richardson is a special back.
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Quote:
Peterson is still only 26 years old. LaDainian Tomlinson was extremely productive until he turned 30 and still had a good year then. And LT received more carries than AP in all but one of his first four seasons (had one less carry in his third year).
To use a more powerful back as a comparison, Jamal Lewis was extremely productive through his age-30 season, in which he gained 1,304 yards and 4.4 yards per carry.
With this in mind, I think AP should be productive for at least three more years, maybe more.
Peterson is a year younger than I had remembered. I think LT is a special case, because he was incredible at not taking big hits, while AP takes (and gives out) a lot of punishment.
Still LT had 7 elite years, and then his YPC fell below 4.0. Jamal Lewis really only had 4 elite years (a 5th if you count the resurgent first year in Cleveland).
And again - I agree that Richardson is a viable option in the 5-10 range. He has a low bust factor, and would probably get a franchise more "quick wins" then anybody else. But he's certainly below the top flight QBs and LTs in my book. I'm still undecided on Blackmon.
~Lyuokdea
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Quote:
But he's certainly below the top flight QBs and LTs in my book.
You will get no argument from me here. Though I don't want a LT because, well, that's already taken care of.
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You will get no argument from me here. Though I don't want a LT because, well, that's already taken care of.
Here's my argument though - in this age of variable defensive formations - multiple line shifts, packages set specifically to attack an opponents weakness, etc ----- I don't think great RTs are much less valuable than great LTs.
It you have a great LT (and we do) - teams are going to push their blitzes over the right side. Now the QB is supposed to see that coming, but teams have gotten much better at hiding the blitzing LB behind the line, or running a delayed stunt that pulls the DL in through the QBs blind spot. We've been beat by that very trick many times this year.
I'd love to grab a Kalil/Martin type and lock up our line for the next 5-10 years. I think you're line is only as good as your weakest link - but it could be a real strength of this team for the next decade if we play our cards (picks) right.
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great offensive linemen will become obsolete in the future as more mobile QBs become popular.
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I actually agree that right tackle isn't much less important than left tackle. However, I think with the Browns' lack of playmakers, they should add some skill players. If the top quarterbacks and Richardson are gone, then I turn to the offensive line.
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great offensive linemen will become obsolete in the future as more mobile QBs become popular.
I can't think of a single QB who this would apply to - the mobile QBs especially benefit from great line play as they tend to take far more hits from poor lines (Vick/Cutler etc.) or benefit greatly from playing behind top lines (Rodgers/Newton).
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 11/22/11 12:49 AM.
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Updated after tonight's MNF game. The win didn't do us TOO much draft harm. 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Haven't seen a linebacker in the last 15 that i would have taken top 20 besides Urlacher.
Patrick Willis should've been a top five pick in any draft.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ask Buffalo what good it is to draft 1st round RBs, lol....they took 3 in the last 8-9 drafts or so....and who's their franchise RB? an UDFA
thats like me saying just draft a QB in the 6th.. ask the Pats how that worked out..
That's funny
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
He's a can't-miss prospect.
...at a low value position...he'd be Alex Mack all over again....GB is the team to beat, right? They have 2 UDFAs and a 6th rounder in Grant, Kuhn and Starks at RB
Who are the league's best RBs playing for?
Peterson..2win team
L.McCoy...3 win team
F.Jackson...fading BUF team
MJD....3win team
McFadden...meh OAK team
S.Jackson....2win team
Rice, Foster, Forte, Gore and Turner play for contending teams....great RBs don't make a difference anymore
RBs don't make or break a team anymore....if a D wants to shut out a great RB, they can do so...
I happen to think you're right. What your argument about 1st round RBs really boils down to is - What have you done for me lately? Whatever anyone else says, that's all that really matters because you take these games one at a time.
You don't need first round RBs anymore unless the player is a special talent.
Furthermore, take a look at what happened with the Herschel Walker trade for Dallas. Ditka's trade for Ricky Williams got him what?
If the Browns are sitting there and Trent Richardson is on the board, they should field offers for trading back and taking as much as they can get.
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Quote:
Quote:
Haven't seen a linebacker in the last 15 that i would have taken top 20 besides Urlacher.
Patrick Willis should've been a top five pick in any draft.
Clay Matthews Jr.?
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The Browns need offensive skilled position players The Browns need offensive skilled position players The Browns need offensive skilled position players. Until we don't have to watch the likes of Steptoe, Stallworth, Jurivicious ( retired halfway through contract) therefore " wishIQuit" Thomas Clayton, Mike Bell, Carlton Mitchell, Jonathon Haggerty, Until a Tight End doesn't lead the team in receiveing receptions and yards. Until they have a quarterback that nobody has to make excuses for. Until they have a runningback that other teams respect and fear. The Browns need offensive skilled position players The Browns need offensive skilled position players  Am I Repeating this anymore than the number of years the Browns have gone neglecting to secure top talent at these positons? The Browns need offensive skilled position players. ( Tight end, Fullback, Left Tackle, Center, Right Tackle, Kicker, and Longsnapper, are NOT offensive skilled positon players. Nor Guard ) The Browns need offensive skilled positon players. They just do. Period. Doesn't matter if they arent worth the draft pick, doesn't matter if they aren't worth the contract. This team can't score enough points! This team can't move the ball! It is an ongoing problem, it is a 10 year problem, it is a 13 year problem, it continues.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
For debate purposes:
2000 Jamal Lewis Baltimore Ravens
2000 Thomas Jones Arizona Cardinals
2000 Ron Dayne New York Giants
2000 Shaun Alexander Seattle Seahawks +
2000 Trung Canidate St. Louis Rams +
2001 LaDainian Tomlinson San Diego Chargers +
2001 Deuce McAllister New Orleans Saints
2001 Michael Bennett Minnesota Vikings ????????
2002 William Green Cleveland Browns>>  happiest I've been for a draft pick in a long time, (also liked Edwards) , loved the pick, The Browns got the 1st Rb taken that year. 
2002 T.J. Duckett Atlanta Falcons
2003 Willis McGahee Buffalo Bills +
2003 Larry Johnson Kansas City Chiefs
2004 Steven Jackson St. Louis Rams
2004 Chris Perry Cincinnati Bengals
2004 Kevin Jones Detroit Lions >>>>>> did not like >>>
2005 Ronnie Brown Miami Dolphins
2005 Cedric Benson Chicago Bears +
2005 Carnell 'Cadillac' Williams Tampa Bay Buccaneers ++
2006 Reggie Bush New Orleans Saints +
2006 Laurence Maroney New England Patriots >don't know this guy<
2006 DeAngelo Williams Carolina Panthers ??????
2006 Joseph Addai Indianapolis Colts
2007 Adrian Peterson Minnesota Vikings ++
2007 Marshawn Lynch Buffalo Bills Didn't pan out, a little bad
2008 Darren McFadden Oakland Raiders
2008 Jonathan Stewart Carolina Panthers
2008 Felix Jones Dallas Cowboys ???????
2008 Rashard Mendenhall Pittsburgh Steelers
2008 Chris Johnson Tennessee Titans
2009 Knowshon Moreno Denver Broncos ????
2009 Donald Brown Indianapolis Colts ????
2009 Chris 'Beanie' Wells Arizona Cardinals
2010 C.J. Spiller Buffalo Bills >>> overrated player I didn't like at all<
2010 Ryan Mathews San Diego Chargers I don't know the guy
2010 Jahvid Best Detriot Lions
2011 Mark Ingram New Orleans Saints >> Liked this pick>>
I liked almost all of those guys, the majority of them would be worth it.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part II
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