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Argh, that ATL pick shifted 5 spots down because Carolina couldn't hold that huge lead.
The Falcons are 8-5 and should be, at best 6-7. Pretty frustrating.
They had no business winning that Carolina game last week or week 2 when Philly blew the 10 point 4th quarter lead.
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I think the Atlanta pick can go lower. Don't worry about that at this point.
I never really expected it to be much better than say, 25, so it is what it is.
It's still going to be a chance at a good player. Maybe not the player or position we wanted, but a good player none the less.
We need a RT or Guard.....that might be a great spot to pull the plug on one of those.
We might get our receiver there.
I think it's bad mojo to root against people or teams.
Just root for yours and not worry about the rest.
I really believe that.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I suppose this is making lemonade out of the lemons we've been handed, but whether it's 22, 25, or 30, the number of holes on this team actually means access to a pretty good player no matter the position.
WR, RB, DE, G, RT, LB, CB, S...we arguably need all of the above. In some cases, there's no doubt.
Our first pick should be a very low-risk player, but the second one may be the 3rd or 4th best player at his respective position.
We just need so much damned help everywhere. Thanks goes out to our shot-callers who've blown all our 2nd and 3rd round picks over the last few years...
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Here's hoping that Heckert fares better...
He's hit a few, he's miss a couple.
If this team is to get better fast, he can't afford to miss in the first 3 rounds...
"too many notes, not enough music-"
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Quote:
WR, RB, DE, G, RT, LB, CB, S...we arguably need all of the above. In some cases, there's no doubt.
Our first pick should be a very low-risk player, but the second one may be the 3rd or 4th best player at his respective position.
We just need so much damned help everywhere. Thanks goes out to our shot-callers who've blown all our 2nd and 3rd round picks over the last few years...
I don't think it's possible to not take a WR in the first three rounds, depending on free agency. We've burnt far too many high end picks on WR's, but... man, that cupboard is bare. If we get a shot at Blackmon, I think we might take it.
I've got to watch Richardson closer. I haven't seen much of him. But I think Peyton Hillis is gone. I know that there's still a chance, but Shurmur doesn't seem too enamored with him. I still don't think we should/will go RB unless it's a BPA type deal.
We need to bookend Sheard with someone other than Mitchell/Bernard. Again, I'm not so hot on my NCAA this year, but if it's deep I could see one in the top 4 ... hell, we probably (hopefully?) will even if it isn't deep.
Without having paid attention to too many prospects outside of Luck and the hothead from Arizona St, I can't really say much.
But pretending I have any idea what Heckert is thinking ...
I doubt we go safety high. He signed Young and drafted Ward and Hagg.
I've really liked that DeCastro, but Heckert's drafted Pinkston and Lauvao ...
I could see us going RT with the Falcons pick (and would approve).
I don't know how it's going to shake out with QB's, but I think/fear there will be a chance A lot of teams could wind up ahead of us with recent top pick QB moves. I know a lot of this is predicated on GM's reinforcing some sort of dictation that you don't admit failure early on a guy, but I think there's more of that than less, especially when there's a lot of money involved ... I could see us having a shot at Barkley or RGIII.
I think Heckert likes Gocong and DQ ... I don't know the LB class well, but I wouldn't be surprised to see us take a guy.
It's like a game of Tetris gone awry. You've now got such a tight window to make a few moves, and if you're not plugging them in right away ... 
In a perfect world, where there's premium talent available, I go some combination of DE WR RT CB in the first three rounds.
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My dream scenario (assuming we can't get Luck) is still
1A: Justin Blackmon - WR Oklahoma St - He's a bona fide #1 WR
1B: Whitney Mercilus - DE Illinois - the book end pass rusher to Sheard
2 : Chase Minnifield - CB Virginia - starter opposite Haden, moves Brown to FS
3 : Levy Adcock - RT Oklahoma St OR Andrew Datko - RT Florida St
4A : Lavonte David - OLB Nebraska
4B : Ryan Broyles - WR Oklahoma - speedy WR will drop due to injury but has loads of talent
5+ = BPA
I'd love to get a QB but I don't see one that impresses me as being worthy outside of Luck and Barkley and I don't think we have a shot at either of them. So, as crappy as it is, I might look to FA for a QB but most likely I stick with Colt for one more year...but I have him on a short leash with Seneca on ready-5.
As for RB I re-sign Peyton if his demands aren't stupid. If they ARE stupid (most likely) I let him walk. We can always use one of those Rd 5/6/7/UDFA spots to grab another guy to compete with Hardesty/Jackson/Ogbonnaya. Guys like Bernard Pierce - Temple, Cyrus Gray - Texas A&M, Isaiah Pead - Cincinnati, Doug Martin - Boise St, Jeff Demps - Florida.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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That would be a tough situation.
I like the picks though
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Quote:
I suppose this is making lemonade out of the lemons we've been handed, but whether it's 22, 25, or 30, the number of holes on this team actually means access to a pretty good player no matter the position.
WR, RB, DE, G, RT, LB, CB, S...we arguably need all of the above. In some cases, there's no doubt.
Our first pick should be a very low-risk player, but the second one may be the 3rd or 4th best player at his respective position.
We just need so much damned help everywhere. Thanks goes out to our shot-callers who've blown all our 2nd and 3rd round picks over the last few years...
I would say we need low risk all the way. To me that means BPA.
You're right. Blown 2nd and 3rd rounders is why we suck. It's like the Browns are given a 1st round pick, then don't have another selection until round 5.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I would be very happy with that draft.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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When Giants traded up for Eli, they gave up their 1st and 3rd in 2004 and first and 5th in 2005. I think the same deal would probably land us Andrew Luck if we are picking in the top 5. Might need to add another 4th but it could be workable.
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When Giants traded up for Eli, they gave up their 1st and 3rd in 2004 and first and 5th in 2005. I think the same deal would probably land us Andrew Luck if we are picking in the top 5. Might need to add another 4th but it could be workable.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that Eli didn't want to play for San Diego, so he sort of forced their hand there.
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You guys need to forget about Sheldon moving to FS...what is this based on? He does not want to tackle as a CB...what makes you think he will as a FS where a much better and reliable tackler is needed?
Sheldon needs to be cut, no other way around it. CB class looks pretty deep, I would not be opposed to draft 2...Haden, Patterson, Skrine + 1 Top 75 CB + 4th to 6th round CB...we'd be set at CB for the next years
Just to prepare you for this kind of draft if we go that route:
1 QB Luck (for 3x 1st)
2 DE Ingram or DE Perry
3 CB Judie or CB Gilmore
4a RB D.Martin or ILB J-M Johnson
4b S T.Robinson or S K.Tate or S Henry
5 WR J.Wright or WR TY Hilton
6a OT/G Zusevics
6b DT DaJohn Harris
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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You guys need to forget about Sheldon moving to FS...what is this based on? He does not want to tackle as a CB...what makes you think he will as a FS where a much better and reliable tackler is needed?
I agree. And, add in that he plays tentatively when the ball is in the air too. You need someone willing to fly around at FS.
Heck, I'd rather put Skrine back at FS than Sheldon (and he doesn't fit the mold for FS, but at least he'd be a willing tackler and could cover a ton of ground)
from the draft, I have mixed feelings on McDonald (FS, USC). I actually think Barron (SS, Bama) could transition to FS pretty well and I would consider him with our 1B pick (think he'll be long gone by our 2)
#gmstrong
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Quote:
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When Giants traded up for Eli, they gave up their 1st and 3rd in 2004 and first and 5th in 2005. I think the same deal would probably land us Andrew Luck if we are picking in the top 5. Might need to add another 4th but it could be workable.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that Eli didn't want to play for San Diego, so he sort of forced their hand there.
I think it's possible we see a similiar situation with Luck.
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You think Luck wants to sit behind Peyton for 4 or 5 years? There just isnt enough room in Indy for both guys. Manning and current head coach havent been eye to eye over Tom Moore and it is why current HC is going to be former HC and Moore comes back as OC. The Colts are going to make a run at the superbowl and Luck doesn't make them an immediate super bowl contender. Peyton and more picks does.
Last edited by Mourgrym; 12/14/11 12:10 PM.
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This is a very flawed Indy team. They need more than just a few picks and Manning.
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Wonder if Green Bay had a similar thought when they took Rodgers and groomed him? Seems like they ultimately made the right decision.
I realize that wasn't the #1 pick but Favre was coming off a season in which he threw for 4,000 yards and 30 TD's. Think anyone felt they REALLY needed a QB?
Indy would be stupid to trade that pick. Manning is 35 and coming off neck surgery. Even if he has 3 years left, Luck is only going to be 25 when he takes over.
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Quote:
Quote:
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When Giants traded up for Eli, they gave up their 1st and 3rd in 2004 and first and 5th in 2005. I think the same deal would probably land us Andrew Luck if we are picking in the top 5. Might need to add another 4th but it could be workable.
Yeah, but you're forgetting that Eli didn't want to play for San Diego, so he sort of forced their hand there.
I think it's possible we see a similiar situation with Luck.
if so, where would he want to go? it would have to be a team drafting in the top10 (or Indy wouldn't budge)
that leaves
Indy (if that is what he wants)
Miami
Washington
Cleveland
Of these teams, I would think that Miami is the best situation for a young QB right now. Pretty good OL (better run blocking than pass blocking, but good overall). Average RBs (and Reggie can be a QBs best friend w/ his bailout catching ability). Pretty good WR corps (Marshall and Bess are both pretty good and Hartline is no slouch). Fasano has dropped off at TE, but they could look for a new TE in rounds2 and 3.
Indy is likely losing Wayne, Clark hasn't been able to stay healthy, and their RBs have not been good. Their OL is also suspect (particularly run-blocking). They do have Garcon and Collie showed some flashes last year.
Washington's OL has not played well most of the year, but has been getting better lately. They don't have great WRs, but do have a couple veterans at least in Santana and Gaffney.
We all know our issues. No WR corps, possibly no RBs, OL that needs a couple parts (but has been better pass blocking), decent to good TEs.
----------the other teams------------------
Minn - they seem to like Ponder and he has shown a few flashes. They want Kalil from all reports (if he comes out)
St.L - can't really giveup on Bradford yet, right? He hasn't shown all that much, but he was the last big $$$ guy and it would kill their cap to give up this year (next offseason they will have 3 years of data and it will hurt their cap much less)
Panthers - obviously they have Cam
Bucs - I think they give Freeman 1 more year to see which year was the aberration ('10 or '11)
Chiefs - I think they would LOVE to have Luck, but think they'll be too far in the draft order to have a realistic chance (this can change though)
Buffalo - same as Chiefs (this can change though)
JAX - Gabbert has been terrible, but he was known as a developmental guy in the first place.
#gmstrong
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That's the thing, there's no desirable place in any of the top teams picking. I honestly think Luck would be an unbelievable fit in Cleveland, but what would make him want to come to the Browns? From an outside perspective, this organization doesn't look great. I think from following them and understanding how they want to work (as do all of you) the fit would be perfect.
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Quote:
1 QB Luck (for 3x 1st)
Moronic! 
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Just to prepare you for this kind of draft if we go that route:
1 QB Luck (for 3x 1st)
2 DE Ingram or DE Perry
3 CB Judie or CB Gilmore
4a RB D.Martin or ILB J-M Johnson
4b S T.Robinson or S K.Tate or S Henry
5 WR J.Wright or WR TY Hilton
6a OT/G Zusevics
6b DT DaJohn Harris
My prediction if we do pull the trigger on Luck:
1. QB Andrew Luck - Stanford (for 3x 1st)
2. RT Mike Adams - Ohio State
3. DE Bruce Irvin - West Virginia
4a. WR DeVier Posey - Ohio State
4b. OG Ryan Miller - Colorado
5. WR Ryan Broyles - Oklahoma
6a. LB Tank Carder - TCU
6b. RB Jeff Demps - Florida
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It wont take that much, especially when you consider this is a pretty loaded draft for QBs. Hell, I dont think there is that much difference between the top guys. Luck and Barkley are more NFL ready but Tannehill and Jones have the greater upside imho.
Then you have RG3, and his wow factor.
So 3 firsts is just way to much. I would take Richardson or Claiborne and take whatever QB fell in my lap with the Falcons pick. Claiborne and Jones or Richardson and Tannehill would really go a long way to the long term stability of this team.
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Quote:
Quote:
1 QB Luck (for 3x 1st)
Moronic!
It might be moronic, but I also think it's going to happen.
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Just to clarify...with 3x 1st...the "net price" is 2 1sts....we switch picks at the top (from, say, 6 to 1) and pay ATL's late 1st and our 2012 1st....I think that'll be minimum for Luck as ATL's pick will be late 1st and ours could "just" be mid 1st if Luck is able to win 6+
If we can't get Luck or don't want him, we may still sacrifice ATL's pick to secure the QB we want...I really think it won't matter much if we pick ahead or behind MIA and WAS since I suspect there will be a bidding war going for that #2 or #3 pick to secure the #2 QB...only the price to pay changes but we should be frontrunners since we are the only QB needy team at the top that can offer anotehr 1st THIS draft....we really can pretty much chose who we want as our franchise QB...and whoever gets the nod from Heckert and Holmgren I hope they go get him and not "wait" another year on McCoy...but I'm pretty sure we will draft a QB with that 1st pick
#gmstrong
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If all it took was our two 1's this year and our 2012 1, sign me up for that trade.
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Quote:
If all it took was our two 1's this year and our 2012 1, sign me up for that trade.
I hear ya.
If Indy said "how about Luck for #6, #22 and next years #1," I'd probably end up trampling the podium as I ran up to hand the card in.
Unfortunately, I don't think that would nearly be enough. There has to be a team more desperate than that out there, when you consider some of the other top 1 or 2 trades that have gone down.
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If all it took was our two 1's this year and our 2012 1, sign me up for that trade.
Let's assume that our pick next year is #15, and the talent pool next year would be about the same as this year. And let's say we get the #6 and #25 this year. If we want to figure out the kind of talent we could get, I'll go over to Scouts Inc and make picks off their top 32 (limiting myself to offensive players, since drafting Luck is in essence selecting three consecutive offensive players):
I would much rather have:
#6 - Matt Barkley
#15 - David Decastro
#25 - Alshon Jeffery
or maybe
#6 - Jonathan Martin
#15 - Michael Floyd
#25 - Alshon Jeffery
and still have Colt McCoy as QB
~Lyuokdea
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That's a great argument, and I can't say you are wrong.
But for me, I would make that trade. If it's true Luck is the best QB prospect in a long time, I don't think the Browns should mess around if they have a chance to get him. It would be very healthy for this organization to bring that type of person in. I think he would take a ton of heat off everybody from the top down, if he's anywhere near as good as he's projected to be.
I know the Browns organization has screwed up, even this new regime has made mistakes, but I think they get way too much scrutiny about this team.
If I have a chance to get a can't miss once in a decade, or once in 2 decades type QB, I'm doing it.
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I wouldn't. I'd rather have Luck.
But as I stated above I've given up on that ship because I don't see any way we have a shot at him.
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To add to that, my Butch Davis "gut" feeling says that we don't end up with him.
I think they try though. I think they put forth a strong effort to the Colts between now and mid-April and try to put together a package. I think we can all agree that Mike and Tom are not going to get into some ridiculous bidding war with other teams though. These guys value their picks as much as any, but I do think that stepping out of their comfort zone for this kind of player is ok.
I think the chances are decent that the Colts deal that pick strictly because if Peyton is OK, they can compete for championships for the next 4-5 years with their current guy? So at least the thought of trading away the pick for a bunch of high picks to strengthen this current team would at least be somewhat appealing?
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It's great if he really is that type of player.
But even then, for Luck to be successful he needs offensive talent around him. Remember he is playing behind what is probably the most talented offensive line in College football.
I can't see him being even a mediocre QB with a swing door at RT/RG, and a WR corps which leads the league in drops - you could fix these things, but that takes draft picks, or free agent signings.
I'm not sure why our front office didn't take that approach with McCoy this year, when we had $30 million in cap space, and there were UFAs like Doug Free, Robert Gallery, Steve Smith, Tyson Clabo, Harvey Dahl, Santana Moss etc. who could have come in and contributed immediately.
Given that they wouldn't do that for a "Franchise" QB this year - what makes you think we'll get it right now?
~Lyuokdea
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I'd rather have Luck too...especially since I'm not a big fan of Floyd or Jeffery....Floyd is a headcase and the next primadonna WR waiting to get some money and Jeffery is an underachiever, a bigger, more talented version of MoMass...in 7 games against better CFB defenses in Clemson, Vandy, Georgia, Miss St, Florida, Tennessee and Arkansas he has 22 catches for 225yds
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Then substitute in the type of talent you want....
The point is that three first round picks is a ton of talent.
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If I could get a guy like Luck for 3 1sts, I would drive to New York and hand in the Browns card for them myself. Hell, I might even walk .... bad back and all.
If we "could have", as others have said, had all of these RT and WR free agents this year, why can't we sign some next year? I'm sure that there will be some decent players available at RT ..... and I bet we can find a quality WR in the 2nd or 3rd. Hell, the Steelers found Wallace in the 3rd, and the Bengals found Simpson and Shipley in the 2nd. Wallace contributed as a rookie in a big way. They have 2nd year player Antonio Brown closing in on a 1000 yard season. Wallace, in his 3rd season, is already over 1000. What's the difference? The Steelers have an OL made up of broken pieces and utter crap. They have a difference maker at QB though.
We need a QB to stabilize the offense, and to build around. He needs to be a guy with plus attributes. He needs to have a plus arm ..... elite accuracy ..... pocket awareness ... and leadership. The only one of those that I can say that McCoy has is leadership. Unfortunately, it's not enough. McCoy had some things happen around him this year with injuries and such ..... but that doesn't make his play any better. he hasn't improved, even with the return of his starting RB and excellent protection from the OL. (despite an illegal hit outside of the pocket)
We have scored 87 points in our last 8 games combined. That's not even 11 per game. That's not NFL football. While there are things around him that definitely hinder him, McCoy is not a QB who can handle those problems ...... let alone one who makes anyone around him better.
It's time to go get a premium QB. If we have the opportunity to get one in this draft, we better do so. If we don't, just keep last place warm for us, because we'll be there again next year.
I bet that Holmgren sees that as well.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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"And with the first pick in the 2012 NFL draft, the Cleveland Browns fans select: Andrew Luck, QB, Standford"
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Luck for 3 firsts ... I think I'd do it, but I'd probably feel sick doing it.
You make that move, you're foregoing a lot of help that's desperately needed.
We'd essentially be forcing Luck into a very bad offense for at least two seasons. Unless we managed to hit on some hidden gems in the fourth or fifth or something ... which isn't something I count on. That's burning a lot of capital on one guy.
And it would likely be a Top 5 pick that we give up ... two top Five picks and a low first for the #1? ... if I'm in Indy it's not that bad (though it won't happen).
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,025 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Luck for 3 firsts ... I think I'd do it, but I'd probably feel sick doing it.
You make that move, you're foregoing a lot of help that's desperately needed.
We'd essentially be forcing Luck into a very bad offense for at least two seasons. Unless we managed to hit on some hidden gems in the fourth or fifth or something ... which isn't something I count on. That's burning a lot of capital on one guy.
And it would likely be a Top 5 pick that we give up ... two top Five picks and a low first for the #1? ... if I'm in Indy it's not that bad (though it won't happen).
If the Browns pursue this, the one thing I worry about is Dan Snyder unloading 25 years worth of draft picks for this, in which I pass. There might not be Andrew Luck next year, but there will be competent QB's.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,976 Likes: 356
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,976 Likes: 356 |
I think that Barkley and RG3 will both be plus quality starters in the NFL for years to come. I think that RG3 could be one of those elite types. I would move up for either of them.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,936 |
Quote:
I bet that Holmgren sees that as well.
I don't think it is in Holmgren's DNA to package three 1st round picks to move up for one player. If H&H feel Colt isn't going to be the guy, I'm fairly certain they'll move on to the next possibility without mortgaging the farm to get him. We'll see...
IMO, there isn't a player alive worth that kind of capital (particularly to a talent-starved team like the Browns). Part of the reason we're in the mess we're in is that we've blown SO many early round picks over the years. We've missed out on so much top-shelf talent since we returned in '99. We need to start HITTING on first rounders and continue to build our core. If that includes a QB, fantastic. However, I'm of the opinion that we can ill-afford to continue to fritter away early round picks (including packaging them together to move up for players). We finally have a chance to make a dent in the talent deficit we've built up for so long. Let's do it.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
thing is, if you're sold on RGIII and Barkley, then you can likely move up to #3 (Minnesota and St Louis) for considerably less. Right now, according to gbn, we pick #8 and the ATL pick is #22. #8 + #22 almost certainly gets you to number 3, so you have a QB you like and you still keep your 1st from next year, which likely is a better pick than #22 anyways.
If you stay at 8, you get neither, you probably don't get Blackmon and you probably don't get Claiborne.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part III
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