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Andrew Luck is viewed as the next Peyton Manning.
Then maybe Indy should selected him with the #1 overall pick like they did with Manning.
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here isn't a team in the NFL that wouldn't give up 3 first round picks for Manning at his peak
Really? Then why didn't any of them do exactly that?
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Hell, the Bengals just got a pair of first round picks (potentially, though slipping potential) for a washed up Carson Palmer.
And you think that Cincy didn't just rob the Raiders?
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If your team believes that Luck is the next Peyton Manning, then 3 first rounders is a pittance.
Really? Which team gave up three first rounders for Peyton Manning? If I recall, Indy selected Manning with their own first round pick.
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Give me a franchise QB with an average team over an above average team with a crappy QB.
So, McCoy is a crappy QB on an above average team? Or Andrew Luck (if we gave up 3 first rounders for him) would be a franchise QB on an average team? I think you're giving the Browns too much credit if you're calling them an average team.
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Laconfora or however you spell it, has been saying that GM's around the league expect the Colts to draft luck and unload Manning.
It only makes sense since they owe him 28 million in March. Not sure who's going to jump on that contract though. They'll probably just have to release him.
They'd be stupid if they did that. They'd be better off trading back (God help whoever would give them three first round picks) and rebuilding completely. They have a lot of players on the verge of retiring or becoming free agents and those free agents won't be coming back for Andrew Luck but could be there with Manning on the roster.
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Would the Colts have traded Manning at his peak for any price?
If you had Peyton Manning, and a team said to you, "I'll give you 3 first round picks for him", what would you do?
I bet that they have had feelers, if nothing else. The Colts probably hung up laughing.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Would the Colts have traded Manning at his peak for any price?
If you had Peyton Manning, and a team said to you, "I'll give you 3 first round picks for him", what would you do?
I bet that they have had feelers, if nothing else. The Colts probably hung up laughing.
IF?
You're talking about giving up 3 first round picks for Andrew Luck, not Peyton Manning at the peak of his career. And before you think of some other way to rephrase it, I don't care what anybody else is saying about Andrew Luck or any other draft prospect.
I wouldn't give up three first round picks for Peyton Manning prior to the 1998 NFL Draft either.
Anyone that suggests that the Browns should give up 3 first round selections for any player are just being silly and they suffer from something I'd call 'Andrew Luck Derangement Syndrome'. They get the same effect thinking about it that sex addicts get by looking at porn. They're not rational.
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You replied to, and quoted my statement that any team would give up 3 first round picks for Manning at his peak.
Thus I replied to your response to what I originally said.
Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
I think if you lined up Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald out wide, and lined up Jake Long at RT and maybe Grubbs at RG then Colt McCoy could definitely run a dynamic, top-5 offense.
I think there are maybe 60 QBs in the league who could do that, McCoy is certainly one of them.
It's a QB driven league, but there's still a lot more to it than that.
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Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
I think if you lined up Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald out wide, and lined up Jake Long at RT and maybe Grubbs at RG then Colt McCoy could definitely run a dynamic, top-5 offense.
I think there are maybe 60 QBs in the league who could do that, McCoy is certainly one of them.
It's a QB driven league, but there's still a lot more to it than that.
Damned with faint praise.....
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Now, let me ask you a question. Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
I think if you lined up Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald out wide, and lined up Jake Long at RT and maybe Grubbs at RG then Colt McCoy could definitely run a dynamic, top-5 offense.
I think there are maybe 60 QBs in the league who could do that, McCoy is certainly one of them.
It's a QB driven league, but there's still a lot more to it than that.
Actually, I don't think that McCoy would run a top 5 offense, even with that lineup.
He throws a terrible long ball. His timing and ball placement sucks. He throws his receivers into knock out hits. He is not accurate.
Larry Johnson is a great WR. He puts on1000 yard seasons like most people put on a pair of shoes.
He has had 3 superb seasons, with 1400 or more yards, and 5 others where he was in the 1000-1100 yard range. He has had 4 seasons with double digit TD catches.
Want to guess who his QB was in those great years ...... and who it wasn't when he put up good, but not great numbers?
Look at Andre Johnson's numbers. In his 1st 4 years combined, (prior to Matt Schaub's arrival) He had a total of 17 TD catches. The next 4 years with Schaub? 33. He went from being a 700-1100 yard receiver to being a 1200-1500 yard receiver. (and the 1200 year was in 13 games) Yeah, a QB makes a huge difference for a WR. You can have great WRs, but if you have an average or below QB, he will drag them down closer to his level.
The Texans tried David Carr at QB. I can make an argument that Carr is at least as good as McCoy. Carr started out with an expansion team. He fought through real distress behind a crappy OL. Then they brought in Matt Schaub, and everything changed.
Look at Arizona. Kurt Warner ..... 1 team. Like up Matt leinart, Derek Anderson, or anyone else who has taken snaps for them .... and you get a different WR .... and a different team.
Look at our own recent history. Charlie Frye had a couple of years to work with the offense as the starter. It seemed like a million years to me. He sucked. He made everyone around him worse. He was inaccurate on all but the short passes, had ZERO pocket awareness, and couldn't read a defense if they gave him labels and cue cards. Derek Anderson came in and the whole offense turned around. Now he was another flawed QB ..... but the experience shows that a QB can make a huge difference. The OL was better with Anderson. The receivers were better. We could run the ball. We could score points. Anderson was deeply flawed, but while he was on, he was the best QB we've had in a decade and a half. Not coincidently, that team was the best we've had in a decade and a half as well.
QBs make receivers great, receivers bail out poor or average QBs. Look how much better receivers become playing with Tom Brady. Look at how rookie-2 year receivers blossom into all around threats on a team like the Steelers. Look at how ineffective they become when a different QB is forced into play.
Give me a great QB .... a franchise QB .. and he'll make average receivers good, good receivers great, and great receivers into legends. Give me a so-so QB with great receivers, and he will drag their potential down closer to his level of competence. No great WR will have their best year with a so-so QB.
How are Santonio Holmes and Plaxico Burress doing with the Jets? Blah QB, blah numbers. Holmes has never recaptured the productivity he had with the Steelers. Look at the Colts' receivers with and without Manning. Look especially at their TD numbers. It's amazing the difference. Look at Steve Smith in Carolina with Cam Newton throwing him the ball. He is a dynamic player, whereas he has been a dynamic player with him. He had a higher yards/catch than all but 1 year. He has more big plays (20+ yards) than any year in his career. He had roughly 1500 yards in the previous 2 years combined, playing with guys like Matt Moore, and Jimmy Claussen. He has over 1200 yards in 13 games so far this year. Great QBs let great receivers thrive.
We could put the finest receiving corps together for McCoy, protect him with All Pros from LT to RT ..... and we still would not see the kind of production from our WRs that great QBs get. They would be stuck with an average to below average QB throwing them the ball .... and that will hinder them far more than having such tremendous targets would help McCoy. Fix the QB and the receivers improve. Fix the receivers and you still get average performance.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The fact that "good WRs do better when great QBs are throwing them the ball" doesn't really answer my point.
The converse is also true "QBs look better when throwing to great WRs"
Culpepper with and without Randy Moss
Jeff Garcia with and without T.O.
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Joe Flacco.
They gave him Bolden, and Evans, and drafted Smith ........ and he is the same QB he has always been.
Can you give me a couple of examples of receivers improving QBs?
Calvin Johnson has been rather consistent over his short career, and his QBs, Like Kitna, and Hill, didn't dramatically improve because of his presence.
Jimmy Claussen had Steve Smith, and he struggled mightily. hard to say whether or not he impacted Claussen, but if he did, it wasn't a positive impact.
Larry Fitzgerald didn't improve Matt Leinhart.
Roddy White didn't improve Joey Harrington, or Chris Redman, or Byron Leftwich.
Vincent Jackson has had Brees and Rivers throwing to him. I think both are very good QBs.
Brandon Marshall had more yards and big plays with Cutler than with Orton or anyone else. He did have more TDs with Orton though. I don't really see any improvement or decline on the parts of Cutler or Orton with or without him.
Boldin had his best years with Warner at QB. I don't know that he has improved any QB's play.
Please let me know which receivers you see who have helped QBs who previously struggled become significantly better.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
The fact that "good WRs do better when great QBs are throwing them the ball" doesn't really answer my point.
The converse is also true "QBs look better when throwing to great WRs"
Culpepper with and without Randy Moss
Jeff Garcia with and without T.O.
I'm not going to deny that QBs look better when throwing to great WRs, that much should seem obvious, though your examples don't really prove that point*. Either way I'd argue that the effect is much stronger the other way around, that a great QB makes decent receivers look much better.
*Culpepper had by far his best year in 2004 (and one of the best years in league history at that), when Moss was hurt and/or ineffective for much of the year. I would argue that Culpepper blowing out his knee and the subsequent rehab altered his career path after that much more than anything related to Randy Moss.
Speaking of Moss, everyone thought he was washed up in Oakland, and when he got traded to New England.... well, 1500 yards and 23 TDs his first year says it all.
Garcia had some very underrated years with the Eagles and Bucs.
Honestly as the division stands right now, it doesn't matter how much talent we can realistically put on this roster, I think it's unlikely we'll ever win the AFC North let alone a Super Bowl with a below average starting QB.
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Not interjecting into the specifics of the conversation flow, but it seems appropriate to reiterate one of the well-known, golden rules of the NFL:
QB's make receivers, not the other way around.
Sure, all the parts of an offense rely on one another to a certain extent as there are no true absolutes in the game, but the rule is that QB's make receivers go, not the other way around.
That rule shouldn't surprise anyone, as the QB is THE most important position on the field.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Dante Cullpepper had Randy Moss as his #1 receiver for many years. Moss stopped seeing the ball as much in 2004, went from 1632 yards and 17 TDs in 2003 to 767 yards and 13 TDs in 2004.
Culpepper had his best year as a pro that year, with 4700 yards and 39 TDs. Moss was a secondary target that year with only 49 catches in 13 games.
Moss then went to Oakland. Kerry Collins threw 20 TDs and 12 INT, with 3700 yards that year, (2005) and the following year he had 533 yards and 3 TD. That year he had guys like Walter and Brooks (who was petty good in New Orleans previously) throwing to him. Then he went to New England, and proceeded to recover.
Garcia left San Francisco and came here. He was dumped almost immediately, He went ton to backup/part time starter duty for 2 different teams in the next 2 years, then on to Tampa for 2 years ...... and threw 38 TD and 16 INT over that time frame. His final 2 years of playing time were as a starter for Tampa and he had 2400 yards with 13 TD and 14 INT, and 2700 yards, with 12 TD and 6 INT. His yards/attempt were actually 2 of the highest of his career in Tampa, and he posted 3 of his top 5 QB ratings as a QB playing in places other than San Francisco.
Antonio Bryant had the best year of his career with Garcia throwing the ball in 2005.
Garcia wasn't exactly a scrub once he left San Francisco. He was a lesser QB on a lesser team, and I don't know that I would ever qualify him as a franchise guy. It's hard to tell whether leaving San Francisco, or leaving Owens had the bigger effect on him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The memory I have of Garcia is him single handedly pushing the Eagles into the playoffs one year with ridiculous performances when McNabb was injured.
His only bad seasons were with CLE and DET and his first season in SFO. The rest of his career he has been above average to well above average.
Last edited by Kingcob; 12/15/11 03:08 AM.
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good points made.. it starts and finishes with the QB..
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Garcia wasn't exactly a scrub once he left San Francisco. He was a lesser QB on a lesser team, and I don't know that I would ever qualify him as a franchise guy. It's hard to tell whether leaving San Francisco, or leaving Owens had the bigger effect on him.
Leaving the WCO and playing for us under the Bruce Arians Offense (I think) really hurt Jeff Garcia. I always viewed him as a fish out of water, no ill feelings Jeff, you just were the wrong fit. That being said, his one year in Cleveland did nothing for his career
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Please let me know which receivers you see who have helped QBs who previously struggled become significantly better.
Rich Gannon and Jerry Rice.
yebat' Putin
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Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
Yes and yes.
yebat' Putin
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For one season, Kellen Winslow, Joe Jurevicius, and Braylon Edwards made Derek Anderson into a pro-bowler.
Think about THAT!
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Another Hypothetical (for those in the "trade up for Luck" camp)
Assume we obtain the 6th and 25th pick - which Scenario do you prefer? (Going off the McShay Big board)
A: Trade #6, #25, 2013 1st Rounder for #1 Overall Pick
Sign Andrew Luck
B:
#6 - Matt Barkley
Trade #25, 2013 1st Round Pick for #10
10 - Justin Blackmon
C:
#6 - Justin Blackmon
Trade #25, 2013 1st round pick for #10
10 - RG3
In this scenario I'm getting people exactly where they are slotted (which is somewhat lucky) -- but my points is:
Is Luck a Justin Blackmon better than the next two QBs in the draft? Because that's what the extra first round picks are worth.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 12/15/11 12:11 PM.
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John Skelton sure made Larry Fitzgerald look good last week!
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If I knew we could get Barkley and Blackmon, I'd go for that. I still think Luck is the clear #1 QB in the draft, but I do believe since September, Barkley has done nothing but shorten that gap. I really think he has a chance to be a pro bowl QB.
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but I do believe since September, Barkley has done nothing but shorten that gap
yep. me too.
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Of those 3 choices, if option B is available, I think its a no-brainer..
Or we could stay where we are, according to the same board, and take Barkley and Alshon Jeffery, and still have a first round pick next year... so the question is, is Blackmon better than Alshon Jeffery AND a first round pick next year...
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Of those 3 choices, if option B is available, I think its a no-brainer..
Or we could stay where we are, according to the same board, and take Barkley and Alshon Jeffery, and still have a first round pick next year... so the question is, is Blackmon better than Alshon Jeffery AND a first round pick next year...
Not using that big board for a second --- I think I'm starting to like RG3 for a few reasons:
I believe he goes off the board in the 15-25 range, rather than the 5-10 range (Right now we are in the Heisman Bump - wait until he measures 6' flat at the combine)
His skillset is a perfect match for the WCO.
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 12/15/11 12:25 PM.
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RGIII is basically a better version of Seneca Wallace. How much better is the question and there is no way to definitively answer that of course  that said, if we can somehow manage to get Blackmon with our pick and RGIII with Atlanta's pick and still have our 2013 1st rounder, then that would be a HUGE win for our team. I'm still thinking that RGIII will be the third QB off the board though and that will mean he won't be there by ATL's pick (Landry fell apart w/o Broyles and likely stays at OU, Tannehill is way too raw though Locker/Gabbert still went high last year, noone else is getting 1st round grades from anyone)
#gmstrong
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RGIII is basically a better version of Seneca Wallace. How much better is the question and there is no way to definitively answer that of course
Probably much better - what you're really saying is that he's a perfect fit for our system (which is why Wallace is here after all).
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that said, if we can somehow manage to get Blackmon with our pick and RGIII with Atlanta's pick and still have our 2013 1st rounder, then that would be a HUGE win for our team.
I'm still pro-McCoy for another year, but if we got another QB, this is optimal.
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I'm still thinking that RGIII will be the third QB off the board though and that will mean he won't be there by ATL's pick (Landry fell apart w/o Broyles and likely stays at OU, Tannehill is way too raw though Locker/Gabbert still went high last year, noone else is getting 1st round grades from anyone)
Are you calling Locker raw?
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I have watched Luck play a couple of times ... To say he is the next Manning or a Rogers is a bit of a reach ????
Last edited by waterdawg; 12/15/11 01:01 PM.
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Are you calling Locker raw?
going to the draft last year, yes I called Locker a raw prospect for a NFL team despite the 4yrs of starts he had at Washington. he was terrible at reading defenses and had sloppy footwork in the pocket. his accuracy was all over the place too (at times great, but most of the time terrible).
watch either of the Nebraska games to see what happened to him with the slightest bit of pressure (yeah, Suh and Crick were coming after him, but he was beyond terrible).
his pro's were that he has a great natural release, strong arm and is athletic enough to extend plays and is at his best rolling from the pocket.
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I have watched Luck play a couple of times ... To say he is the next Manning or a Rogers is a bit of a reach ????
To say that anybody is going to be one of the best players at their position of his generation, as those 2 are, is certainly a bit of a reach... but the numbers and the skillset lead you to believe that he has the best chance of any QB to come out in a long time.
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For one season, Kellen Winslow, Joe Jurevicius, and Braylon Edwards made Derek Anderson into a pro-bowler.
Think about THAT!
When has Edwards had another season like that? DA made Edwards a pro bowler as much as the reverse. That was his only 1000 yard season of his career. Winslow has also never repeated his level of proficiency from that year.
Neither Kellen Winslow nor Braylon Edwards made any other Browns QB into a Pro Bowl player.
Only one QB in each of their careers has given them a career year. That QB was Derek Anderson.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Quote:
Do you honestly see Colt McCoy, no matter what we can realistically put around him, as a Super Bowl quality QB? Do you think that he can take a team, and overcome the inevitable setbacks and injuries that befall every single team in the NFL, and still lead his team to a championship?
Yes and yes.
We will agree to disagree. I see too many flaws in McCoy as a QB for him to ever take the Browns to a Super Bowl in today's QB driven league, no matter what you surround him with. I think that his ceiling might be Joe Flacco.
Maybe.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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We will agree to disagree. I see too many flaws in McCoy as a QB for him to ever take the Browns to a Super Bowl in today's QB driven league, no matter what you surround him with. I think that his ceiling might be Joe Flacco.
Maybe.
Why do you list Joe Flacco as a ceiling? I have a hard time thinking of two QBs in the NFL who are more different.
~Lyuokdea
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Meh, I'd MUCH rather have Flacco. McCoy can do some things with his legs, but teams don't get to the Super Bowl behind scrambling game managers these days. If you're a Super Bowl team, you better have at least a decent line, or a QB who can really wing it. Flacco can really wing it, and though he's had a rough go of it this year, his ratings over the last three seasons went from 80 to 88 to 93.
If I thought McCoy's ceiling was Flacco, I wouldn't want him out.
We REALLY need the Falcons to lay an egg. As for the Browns, I'd absolutely LOVE for us to lose each of the remaining games on a last-second field goal. We'd have shown improvement while holding our high draft position. I'm always for winning the game on game-day, but the other six days of the week? Things are tough to call. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Legend
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I want a mobile QB though. It's why Aaron Rodgers is playing like the GOAT. He is a very underrated athlete. I'd take him now over Manning or Brady in their prime.
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The only reason I use Flacco as an example is that neither seems particularly accurate, and neither is much of a threat with the deep ball.
I don't expect that McCoy could get to Flacco level ..... but I see that as kind of his upward limit.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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even if ATL lays an egg at this point, they are pretty well setup to make the playoffs.
they are 8-5. if they win 1 out of 3 games, then they will get to 9 wins.
the loser of NYG/DAL will have at best 9 wins.
CHI and Detroit both play GB.
everyone else already has 7 losses at least.
ATL wins 2/3 games, then they clinch. If they win just one, then they still can make the playoffs (will depend on a number of scenarios).
#gmstrong
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Anyone watch the Packers on Sunday? I swear that I saw Rodgers throw a ball at least 45 yards that never reached more than 6 or 7 feet high at it's peak. Literally a frozen rope.
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Quote:
Anyone watch the Packers on Sunday? I swear that I saw Rodgers throw a ball at least 45 yards that never reached more than 6 or 7 feet high at it's peak. Literally a frozen rope.
Considering the ball would have had to travel at an average speed of around 101 MPH, i think it's a slight exaggeration - but he does have some arm strength.
(7 feet max height from a throwing height of 6 feet, and hitting the ground when it gets to the receiver).
~Lyuokdea
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Did you compensate for the 65mph tailwind?
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part III
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