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Not every draft pick is a hit, not every time that they decide to go get a superstar do they become a superstar.
Just take a look at the 2010 draft, where they got TJ Ward and Joe Haden, but they also took Larry Asante in the 5th. He doesn't stick around and then they get Skrine in the 5th of 2011.
And Before they even drafted Haden and Ward, they had already signed Sheldon Brown in free agency.
That didn't fix the secondary, they also signed free agents at the start of the season this year, in Usama Young and Dimirti Patterson.
That can't entirely explain it, because they also got improvement from Mike Adams alread with the team.
So Just even the pass defense, if you want to say they are going to fix the pass defense, well they had to have about 4 things work out together.
They also hit with Dockery, too, and Eric Hagg too who haven't been liabilities when they get playing time.
Back to the point, Not every draft pick is a hit, even the BEST GM's only hit on about 1 half of their picks, especially after the first round. The thing is you have to see where the investment is, every investment in one part of the team leaves the opportunity cost of not investing somewhere else.
But Larry Asante was a miss
You Have, in 2011 they took Jordan Cameron, who really hasn't seen the field and last night he played Terrible. I don't want to see anymore of this guy. Seriously Martin Rucker didn't get the chance and He had to have more potential at TE.
Everybody on this board was harping abour picking Eric Berry, safety, because they wanted the next Troy Palamulu or Ed Reed, well He's on injured reserve he missed the whole 2011 season almost.
It may seem since the Browns have a losing record every year that they have the 1st overall pick every year, but they don't and some will hate things like the trade down and then trade up and pick of Phil Taylor, wishing they could have a stud like AJ Green.
Well the Browns didn't pass on AJ Green, he was already off the board when the Bengals took him ahead of their pick and they passed on Julio Jones, who may be a stud also, maybe not.
The point is you can't just spend one pick on one player and think, that positon is solved, (look at rb going back to 2005)
Another thing some think that if you don't spend the 1st rd pick on a positon that your going to neglect it for the entire year.
After all that.
If they want to spend 7 picks on offensive skilled positions this year, I'd be happy, just wait a year and come back to the defense next year.
 Typing that last line makes me realize something. It's not about draft picks, its about Coaching, Coaches make the teams win,.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
Quote:
Get me Barkley or RG3 with our highest pick then with Atlanta's pick get us the best WR still on the board. Preferably with some serious wheels.
OR, the Browns trade down a bit, accumulate more draft picks and continue to fill more of the many holes the team has on defense and offense.
...just pointing out another possible draft strategy that makes sense.
That makes too much sense for this group. LOL
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Legend
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hehe
If Blackmon is gone when we pick, I would LOVE to see us trade down. Get us a another 1st rounder for next year, too? Heck yeah!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
hehe
If Blackmon is gone when we pick, I would LOVE to see us trade down. Get us a another 1st rounder for next year, too? Heck yeah!
I'd like to see us drop back (almost every year) to gain extra picks. I don't think I'd be looking to drop from #6 to #26 or whatever we did last year though. I'd drop from #4 to #8 or so... and then look to trade back again, from say #8 to #13 or so. Picking up second rounders this year and more in the process. There would have to be a #1 next year or so in there too!
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Legend
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If we get a #1 next year and something else this year... I'm not really going to worry about how far we drop back.... it'll all even out in the end 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
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Legend
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Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
I agree. I think the utopia would be trading back to get those extra picks, but still being able to draft impact players. Drop back into the early teens and still be able to pick up a stud WR, DB, S, etc.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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Quote:
Sooner or later we have to stop trading back and find some guys with difference-maker ability. Whether it be QB or not (I'm in the "not" group), we need big play guys at WR, DE, LB, FS, and maybe RB and TE. We also need OL help. Some of those could come in FA, but ideally you'd like it to come more from the draft.
The more "average" first rounders you have out there, the more each and every one of them will become difference makers because they aren't wasting efforts trying to cover up the deficiencies of those around them... they all just handle their own job.
Having Uber-Elite talent surrounded by mediocre and below talent will negate that Uber-Eliteness.
In short... I'd rather have 6 really solid, darn good players out there than just 1 or two super-great players.
So, I say keep trading down and stockpiling future 1st rounders every single year until we reach the point where they feel like a luxury and not a necessity... by that point, we should be perrenially contending and can then spend any extra 1sts we've have to move up and take that elite level talent that puts everything over the top.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Would you rather have Jim Brown and Paul Warfield, or 6 "average" 1st rounders?
Personally, I'd rather have Brown and Warfield.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think you miss my point.
Jim Brown and Paul Warfield aren't near what they were without the ton of talent surrounding them.... like the slew of Hall of Fame linemen they had with them that dominated the trenches.
I want solid talent across the board. I want holes filled so that our problems aren't a perennial laundry list that is easier to list what we don't need to fix... and THEN I want to add Jim Brown and Paul Warfield's to that.... but I want things solidified FIRST.
You can get that done a helluva lot faster if you have two 1st's every single year.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Legend
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Those linemen would not be in the Hall of Fame without Jim Brown running behind them.
I want great players. It is easier to fill in around exceptional players with average players than the opposite.
I am of the opinion that you get great players when you can, because they are far harder to find.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
Those linemen would not be in the Hall of Fame without Jim Brown running behind them.
looks like they did just fine with Leroy Kelly too
#gmstrong
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...and Bobby Mitchell. Yup, it was all the RB 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Quote:
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Those linemen would not be in the Hall of Fame without Jim Brown running behind them.
looks like they did just fine with Leroy Kelly too
As much as I like and respect Leroy Kelly, there is zero comparison between him and Jim Brown.
Brown finished up his final 3 years (63-65) with rushing totals of 1863, 1446, and 1544 yards, and a total of 36 rushing TDs. He had 1800-2100 total yards from scrimmage in those years. (and another 9 TDs)
Kelly never had a year higher than 1259 yards. He never exceeded 1536 in total yards from scrimmage.
There is no comparison. Kelly was a great player. Brown was in his own category.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck.
Reggie Wayne, Jaccob Tamme, Garcon are Free agents.
How about we sign Peyton Manning, pick up a couple of those receiving options. We have a lot of cap space money and have locked up our key players minus Hillis and Dawson. Build the O skills through FA and use the draft to finish off the Defense and get our RT.
Sure would be interesting lol
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never said Jim Brown wasn't a great player. was noting that he was not the only one that the OL could block for well. so, they deserve praise as well.
#gmstrong
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Sounds like a plan to me. Maybe we can get Tom Moore to come be our offensive coordinator too.
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Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck.
The team that is absolutely a home run fit for Manning is San Francisco.
Great defense, lots of offensive talent but only an average NFL QB.
You put Manning on that team and they may be better than the Packers.
If I was a betting man, that's where I'd guess he goes (if Indy cuts him loose).
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Legend
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Granted. However, as great as Leroy Kelly was, he wasn't Jim Brown. Frankly, he wasn't even really close.
If I have a chance to get a Jim Brown, I take it. He more than takes the plays of 2-3 "average" 1st round talents, and he makes my team better no matter who I have at other positions. There is no guarantee, even on 1st round picks. I go for the very best player I can get, unless someone just knocks me out with an offer. (and this year it would take a total of 3 first rounders for me to move down)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Quote:
Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck.
Reggie Wayne, Jaccob Tamme, Garcon are Free agents.
How about we sign Peyton Manning, pick up a couple of those receiving options. We have a lot of cap space money and have locked up our key players minus Hillis and Dawson. Build the O skills through FA and use the draft to finish off the Defense and get our RT.
Sure would be interesting lol
lol, I'll believe it when I see it.
"reportedly likely"... lol, what a ridiculously insane phrase to put stock into when dealing with something that involves nothing but deception and speculation for months and months leading up to the event.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Can you imagine the circus if he doesn't?
Colts get Manning back 100% looks like the old Peyton.
First loss they get, the media storms in with their questions (yeah, it's not just Cleveland media, folks)
On top of that, are they going to pay Peyton, who gets top dollar, as well as Andrew who will be paid under the new CBA but still getting #1 overall $?
Really interested to see how that whole thing plays out.
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Colts are reportedly likely to cut Peyton Manning and draft Luck
1. If this is "reported" right now it means they keep Manning and started to drive the price up for the Luck sweepstakes
2. We can't sign Manning. If brought in, he calls HIS OWN Offense and the backup QBs are as lost as the colts one you see and saw this year...sure I'd take the "Manning-O" for 2-3 years and have fun with it but long term it makes 0 sense
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Drew Brees has cut off contract negotiations with the Saints because they weren't making any progress, we could get him for the same money we could get Manning and he is better suited to the system and he's younger... 
yebat' Putin
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Do you think we could still get Orlando Pace, too?
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I'm sure we can, he's a free agent right 
#gmstrong
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Good think we moved ahead of Miami in draft order then.
We have who ..... Indy, St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, and us ..... right? (and the 4-10 teams are not yet sorted out all the way)
Indy definitely goes Luck. I don't see any other scenario unless someone does a Ricky Williams Plus type deal. (like a whole draft plus a couple of extra #1s)
Lock Luck in at #1 ..... and write it down in solid black ink.
St Louis, Minnesota, Tampa and Jacksonville have all invested 1st round picks in QBs in the past 3 years.
Bradford has been hurt a lot. I think that they go either WR or OL.
Minnesota has Christian Ponder, and he has shown some good things, and struggled with others. They are scoring points, so I would think that look defense.
Tampa Bay has Freeman. he has struggled this year. I would guess that Tampa stays the course with him, and tries to work out his problems.
Then we get to Jacksonville. Wow, this is an awful team. They could go anywhere on offense except RB and make a huge upgrade. Gabbert really looks awful ..... and the Jags have surrounded him with awful. Sounds like a match made in hell to me. This could be a QB destination. They need someone to provide something in the passing game. They might go WR too. Or OL. I wouldn't write off RB either.
Anyway ..... right around here we get to the Browns. QB? Which one? Is there one left? Are there 2 left?
good thing washington won, they have to take a QB don't they???
It sounds like it is a done deal with Indi number 1, even if they happen to win another game. The vikes actually have a better shot at getting the number one at 2-14 with strength of schedule then the rams. So Luck to the colts.
Vikes at number two -i would think Left Tackle
Tampa could go anywhere, but i doubt they give up on Freeman. I would guess defense, they can't stop anyone.
I think Jacksonville beats the colts in week 17. Indi tanks it to be certain of the number one pick.
Rams need widereceivers- Blackman is the no brainer.
That puts the browns up- maybe Washington is calling?? We have the choice of RG3 or Barkley.
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J/K
I haven't watched a single snap of Baylor football. That said I'm having trouble finding highlight clips of RG3 the QB. I see a lot of clips that show him being a great athlete. He is a freak of nature. There is no doubt he is a great ball player but can he be a great NFL QB?
Can he really make all the throws? Can he do more than run with the football?
Again I'm not saying he can't. I haven't seen him play. I'm asking guys that have watched.
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Can we develop a list of the top 7 best players available, in order? A consensus, agreed by all.
Yeah fat chance of that.
Luck, a consensus #1, objections?
Can their be an agreed consensus Next Best player in this draft?
I think Blackman, and Richardson belong in the top 7.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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1 Andrew Luck QB Stanford
2 Matt Kalil OT USC
3 Justin Blackmon WR Okla St
4 Matt Barkley QB USC
5 Morris Claiborne CB LSU
6 Trent Richardson RB Alabama
7 Riley Reiff OT Iowa
8 Robert Griffn III QB Baylor
9 Quinton Coples DE UNC
10 Dre Kirkpatrick CB Alabama
Here's my top 10 list
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I havn't seen this young man play ... I read a lot of different op's on him !
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By the way....scenario wise.
What if the Rams end up with the number 1 pick?
I assume they would take a 3 first rounders offer and I'm fine with that.
What if they think that they cannot pass on Andrew Luck?
Does Atlanta's pick get it done?
If so I'm in on that!
I feel like the Rams would be more likely to take Luck than the Colts even. I think they would trade Bradford for a first round pick (I think they could still get a late first rounder).
The best part of the deal is, they would be paying Luck about 30 million less than they are paying Bradford - due to the new rookie contracts.
I don't think that is even remotely possible just from a numbers standpoint.
The cap hit would be maybe $30 mil....they can't take that hit and still keep other players.
The Rams are all in with Bradford.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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1. QB Andrew Luck Stanford
2. CB Morris Claiborne LSU
3. Qb Matt Barkley USC
4. OT Jonathon Martin Stanford
5. Ot Matt Kalil USC
6. RB Trent Richardson Bama
7. WR Justin Blackmon OKST
8. QB Ryan Tannehill Texas A&M
9. QB Landry Jones Okla.
10. DT Dontari Poe Memphis
11. OT Riley Reiff Iowa
12. CB Alfonzo Dennard Nebraska
13. MLB Luke Kuechly Boston college
14. WR Alshon Jeffery South Carolina
15. DE Whitney Mercilus Illinois
16. WR Kendal Wright Baylor
17. WR Michael Floyd Notre Dame
18. CB Janoris Jenkins North Alabama
19. CB DRe Kirkpatrick Bama
20. OG David Decastro Stanford
21, OT Mike Adams Ohio St.
22. DE Jared Crick Nebraska
23. DE Quinton Coples North Carolina
24. MLB Dont'a Hightower Bama
25. OLB Courtney Upshaw Bama
26. DT Devon Still Penn St.
27. Qb Robert Griffin III Baylor
28. Qb EJ Manuel FSU
29. RB Lamaar Miller Miami
30. DT Alameda Ta'amu Washington
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Is this list browns specific, or generic? I hope to release a similar list in the near future, but still have a lot of tape to watch first....
Last edited by Lyuokdea; 12/20/11 02:09 PM.
~Lyuokdea
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Legend
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Just curious, where do you watch tape and/or how do you get it?
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Just curious, where do you watch tape and/or how do you get it?
torrents, (warning: legality questionable), but pretty much every college game is available. I use VLC, and have the hot buttons set up to let me skip between plays, slow down action to as little as 10%, etc.
It's pretty useful for evaluating players who are in camera shot most of the time. I don't know for the life of me how anybody can evaluate a CB without the all-22 tape though.
~Lyuokdea
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Its more generic.
I try to balance what I see and what I think they can be. Like last year, I didnt have Julio Jones in my top 30 because I thought he was Braylon edwards with injury concerns. So far he has fit the bill.
Zach Brown and Vontaze burfict are my big red flags this year and totally off my radar. They may end up being great but if I am GM they are not on my draft board.
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When it comes to corner, you can grade their man skills easily but the zone stuff, you need the birds eye view. For man you see the use of hands to jam, and their strength. You see their backpedal and reaction to the receivers movement, is he turning the receiver in or out. And when the ball goes their way, you can grade their adjustment to the ball and their recovery speed as well as ball skills in how they make a play for the ball.
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Quote:
When it comes to corner, you can grade their man skills easily but the zone stuff, you need the birds eye view. For man you see the use of hands to jam, and their strength. You see their backpedal and reaction to the receivers movement, is he turning the receiver in or out. And when the ball goes their way, you can grade their adjustment to the ball and their recovery speed as well as ball skills in how they make a play for the ball.
Oh, I understand how you can get snippets, but there is a ton you aren't seeing there (that the pro scouts are)
~Lyuokdea
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Like last year, I didnt have Julio Jones in my top 30 because I thought he was Braylon edwards with injury concerns. So far he has fit the bill.
I don't really see it that way.
His drop percentage rate is right around where he was in college, which isn't a horrible number and would put him somewhere in the Top 20 of the NFL, especially considering the bulk of his work comes on deep throws.
Does he drop the ball? Yes, but he far surpasses Braylon in terms of numbers and the eye test in that regard.
I've watched him a lot this year ... I like him, but I don't think he would've been a good fit for us. We're not a strong enough offense to deal with the drops he will have.
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1st String
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 183 |
With the new collective bargaining agreement in place that greatly reduces the amount of money that can be paid to newly drafted players (and essentially slots them), the positional value has been completely changed. It used to be that teams only valued certain positions at the high end of the first round (with obvious rare exceptions) due to the cost of those contracts (DL, LT, QB, CB, WR) and other positions were typically left to later in the draft (LB(excluding hybrids), S, OG/RT, RB, TE). I believe that with the new reduced pay scales for drafted players, that the old "value" scheme should/will be thrown out and teams should/will be much more likely to take very highly rated players at those old "non-value" positions at higher points in the draft. The reason for this is simply, the contract limitations in the new CBA make taking a 5th overall RT/S/OG/any position very cheap if you think you are getting a stud player there and teams will no longer have to worry about having too much cap space tied up in certain positions/units because the CBA prevents it. To this end, if the Browns (for instance) are in position to take the top tackle in this draft at #4/5 (and we have him rated top of our board), we can actually make that pick and play him at RT without having to worry about it being too costly of a pick.
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