|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
I have to say I'm very impressed with how Jabaal Sheard's rookie year has gone. I was pulling for us to draft Brooks Reed with that pick before the draft and wanted us to take Bowers when he was still available there. Was it FL and Mourg who wanted him? Django? Good call. Sure, he sometimes has issues in the run game that he needs to improve on, but he has played very well for a second round pick thrown in to the game as a rookie. I'm very glad that Shurmur accepted early on that he needs to move back over to the left side. Not every coach would do that after starting a player somewhere else out of position. I think he brings an explosiveness to our pass rush that we haven't had in a long time. Yes, sometimes he can get stuck in trying to get around the tackle which can open up running lanes for the QB, but i think he's gotten better about that as the season has gone on. He's already a better rusher than Benard and is the best we have on the team IMO. Did you know he leads the league in forced fumbles? He's got that natural swipe in his rush like Freeney and Mathis, and his athleticism is terriffic. Put him along with Rubin as guys who move much better than they should be able to at their size. I'm very happy he's on our team and look forward to him getting better. I hope we get more players like him.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
LOL I Half expected this to be the Official CUT Jaball Sheard thread  He's been a fun guy to watch.. Same with Phil Taylor...They are young so I expect them to only get better with time..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
For a rook thrown in with no vet on the opposite end, being pretty much the only rusher DCs have to gameplan for, his play has been impressive so far, even getting better and more consistent lately...but pass rushers have disappeared after strong rookie seasons (Wimbley, that CHI Bear couple of years ago) so he has to keep working at it as he still has lots of cleaning up to do and get much better...hope the offseason recognition he'll get doesn't lead to his nose taking off
His effort has been ok but I didn't like the body language on the sack-fumble on Dalton last week... he went straight up, all pumped up about the play and never seemed to care about the ball while a big pile of bodies fighting for the ball was forming next to him
but that's nit-picking....he was #1 on my board (#2 was WR T.Smith) when we were on the clock in the 2nd and I think I remember Attack (?) pimping him predraft too, so he had some fans on here
Looks like a very good pick for sure....Heckert got very good value at 2 very high value positions who also happened to be MAJOR needs since we were switching to a 43....Heckert is all about value and upside...he doesn't shy from risky picks, I think that's pretty clear after 2 drafts already....he has onions along with a good eye for talent....
He seems to overlook off field stuff and injuries in his evaluations and is probably all about tape, resulting in injury risk picks like Ward and Hardesty or chracter/off field red flag players like Sheard and Little....he's probably very rational about it and it's the right approach because an injured player who check out healthy by the docs has the same probability to get injured again as any other player....I'm pretty sure that's how he handles that stuff...Pashos is another good example of this
It's obviously a risky approach and probably too gutsy to a fault but it's very rational...no more gut feeling picks or best blocking, high character WR overdrafts....it's all about talent and value and Heckert has a feel for both
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
See, I knew someone would have something negative to say about him... 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,512
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,512 |
Wow ..I will Need a little time to put up a rebuttal on that one .... Not a big Heckert fan at this point !
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Yea; Honestly him and Haden have been the only things making our defense somewhat watchable... too bad our LBs are so bad that we can't stop any runs; but on passing downs Haden and Sheard are fun to watch ;P
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
Yea; Honestly him and Haden have been the only things making our defense somewhat watchable... too bad our LBs are so bad that we can't stop any runs; but on passing downs Haden and Sheard are fun to watch ;P
Wow, no love for Rubin, taylor or DQ... Interesting 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
but that's nit-picking....he was #1 on my board (#2 was WR T.Smith) when we were on the clock in the 2nd and I think I remember Attack (?) pimping him predraft too, so he had some fans on here
Yes I did..I also noticed his major weakness in that he will often get caught coming inside instead of staying on the outside shoulder of the OT,as it often allows the tackle to block him into Taylor's gap..thus leaving the outside open for a nice gain..of course IF the Browns had a stong OLB over there that could be negated.
He's going to need to be stronger and smarter as he gains experience.
Last edited by Attack Dawg; 12/07/11 12:58 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
I love how he's getting better at a point where a lot of rookies hit that wall because they were used to college being done.
He's gonna be an excellent pro.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Rubin BY FAR is the most fun to watch Browns player on the entire roster
He's the incarnation of all famous Paul Brown and Lombardi quotes
@water
I know how you feel about Heckert and understadn where you're coming from...he has been far from perfect but I think the product on the field isn't anywhere close to HIS yet...the guys he drafted and start look promising minus McCoy and Lauvao....and McCoy wasn't him, that's what everyone has to consider...Colt is all on Holmgren...overall on drafts he got a solid B from me...and don't forget that the REAL value from the past draft kicks in THIS draft with the extra 1st
cheap FAs is by design for now....we'll spend money in FA when the time is right...it's really incomplete....sure you can criticize him for Pashos, U.Young etc but those guys weren't signed to be world beaters, everybody knew they were stop gaps and/or 2nd chance tryouts....and without spending big bucks he was the 1st GM who finally fixed our Nickel/Dime DB mess...Patterson and Skrine are a major upgrade over the Ralph Brown's and Hank Poteat's we had to endure...Patterson even looked decent in spot start duty...he found a decent rotational DT in Paxson....he's more a #4 DT in my book but for now he's our #3 (and remember he had traded for Bunkley for that #3 DT role, again for a cheap price, so he was well aware of the depth problem there)....he got Norwood in here, who looks like another buy low keeper with at least short to mid term future....considering the investment and being handcuffed by the self-restricted approach (which makes sense btw) he found some nice complementary pieces
This is really year 1 of the re-build...and we all know what that means...it's a tryout season....keep good apples, upgrade bad apples
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
Patterson and Skrine are a major upgrade over the Ralph Brown's and Hank Poteat's we had to endure...
Tru dat.
Ray Mickens, Terrible Cousin, Kenny Wright... seemed like every year we had a new awful 3rd corner. Daven Holly was the only one out of the bunch worth a damn.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
I expect Heckert to continue along these lines for another couple years.
IMHO, he's hit more than he's missed... and I don't think he's fooled by anyone we currently have on our roster. That bodes well for us, going forward.
Sheard: Kid's got skeellz NOW, and I don't think he's anywhere near his ceiling. If he continues at this learning curve, I expect Pro Bowls to be in his future. GREAT draft.
________________
If Heckert can continue along this line for the next 2 drafts, we'll have more strengths than holes... and that's when we can start making some noise in the AFCN
.02
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
he has been far from perfect but I think the product on the field isn't anywhere close to HIS yet...the guys he drafted and start look promising minus McCoy and Lauvao....and McCoy wasn't him, that's what everyone has to consider...Colt is all on Holmgren...
I still fail to see how that is a really bad thing... If we had taken Colt in Round 1 (or anybody) and he struggled like this I might be inclined to agree with you... I know people wanted (or still want) him to be the QB of the future but in reality, he's a 3rd round pick, a guy Holmgren took in his first draft in HOPES that he would fill the spot.
In the last 2 years, without selling out to trade up, what QBs COULD we have taken?
Tim Tebow
Jimmy Clausen
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Christian Ponder
Andy Dalton
Would one of those guys made us instantly credible? I don't think so... Dalton probably looks the best as a pure NFL QB and he has his flaws and he didn't go until the 2nd round so obviously not many were sold on him either.... some would probably have us ahead of where we are right now but I don't think the next Manning/Brady is in there anywhere.... But we have upgraded quite a few positions in the last couple years and stand to upgrade a few more this year... So whether Colt turns the proverbial corner and amounts to an legit NFL starter or not, I don't blame Holmgren or Heckert for the pick, in fact I think it was a pretty smart play.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293 |
I don't think I've ever seen a Browns player better at stripping the football, hes unreal at it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,458 |
After the draft I really was happy we got this guy....I am not a big CFB/Draft guy....but, from what I had seen, I wholly expected this guy to be a good one...
I wish to wash my Irish wristwatch......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Sheard has looked really good in pass defense but to be anything other than a pass rush specialist, he needs to improve his run defense... not that we can't use a pass rush specialist but if he wants to be an every down player, he needs to improve.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
I agree completely. I'm actually a big Heckert fan and I think he's done a very good job overall here. In time I'm confident that he'll make the right decisions in the draft to field a squad that's more talented than most.
IMO the most important thing for a GM is to hit on draft picks in the first two rounds. I know that seems like it's something that should be easy but it's not. It's why Pittsburgh and Baltimore are so successful. Their first rounders and second rounders are studs, they're coached up, then they serve as the foundation on which to build.
Heckert has hit on Haden, Ward, Taylor, Sheard and Little. I like all those picks. If he continues on this path we'll have a darn good team.
With that said...
We HAVE TO get a franchise QB.
We HAVE TO get a franchise QB.
We HAVE TO get a franchise QB.
In the end, if you don't have the right guy at QB, you really aren't going anywhere.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
j/c
As I understand it, Holmy wasn't shy about taking QB's (whether they worked out or not) with almost every draft back in the day. Perhaps he's continuing this trait in Cleve, and Colt is just the first on many to come....
[shrugs]
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen a Browns player better at stripping the football, hes unreal at it.
Maybe Michael Dean Perry? But, agreed... he's very good at it.
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
Quote:
Quote:
he has been far from perfect but I think the product on the field isn't anywhere close to HIS yet...the guys he drafted and start look promising minus McCoy and Lauvao....and McCoy wasn't him, that's what everyone has to consider...Colt is all on Holmgren...
I still fail to see how that is a really bad thing... If we had taken Colt in Round 1 (or anybody) and he struggled like this I might be inclined to agree with you... I know people wanted (or still want) him to be the QB of the future but in reality, he's a 3rd round pick, a guy Holmgren took in his first draft in HOPES that he would fill the spot.
In the last 2 years, without selling out to trade up, what QBs COULD we have taken?
Tim Tebow
Jimmy Clausen
Jake Locker
Blaine Gabbert
Christian Ponder
Andy Dalton
Would one of those guys made us instantly credible? I don't think so... Dalton probably looks the best as a pure NFL QB and he has his flaws and he didn't go until the 2nd round so obviously not many were sold on him either.... some would probably have us ahead of where we are right now but I don't think the next Manning/Brady is in there anywhere.... But we have upgraded quite a few positions in the last couple years and stand to upgrade a few more this year... So whether Colt turns the proverbial corner and amounts to an legit NFL starter or not, I don't blame Holmgren or Heckert for the pick, in fact I think it was a pretty smart play.
None of those guys, at least instantly. I really like Ponder, better than I did at this point last year, but he has a ways to go.
I like watching Tebow play because I can't believe my eyes when I watch, but I will go on record as saying if he played in our division, he'd be on IR already. I'm sorry, but that style ain't gonna cut it in the NFC North.
It's amazing that list you put together, it really seems like we haven't passed on a great QB in the draft the last 2 years. You could even go further and say since '99 their hasn't been a ton. Coulda had Big Ben, could have had Josh Freeman. Everyone could have had Rodgers and Brady. But there's no real head-slapper.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,259 |
Quote:
Wow, no love for Rubin, taylor or DQ... Interesting
I have a really hard time throwing love onto our interior dl and middle linebacker when we're in the basement in stopping the run. Now I'm not stupid, I think the problem is our lack of speed outside, but I think drafting a killer instinct ILB and throwing Dqwell on the will would go a long way toward making our front 7 look better. We'd still be missing a DE and SAM though.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
j/c So in a little over 3 hours, the thread should be retitled "Tom Heckert."  I've been meaning to ask. Does anyone know or have an idea of who Heckert WANTED when Holmgren insisted on McCoy? I know a player's mother who is 100% convinced Heckert was about to take him there. Just curious as to whether this was general knowledge among the draft-niks . . .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Ya know, anyone,, and I mean anyone., on here, in the media, players, owners, management or just general fans who thought that Holmgren coming in was going to just snap his fingers and everything was going to be alright was smoking some seriously bad stuff. Two years in, we've not seen a big difference in the performance on the field. Somethings look better, some don't. The cupboard was so bare when Heckert and Holmgren arrived that you have to wonder, how could any reasonble person expect much success. Couple that with a total change of coaching and direction of the Offense and Defense.., and for good measure, add in a work stoppage and yet, some still feel that our QB isn't the answer, the Coach should be fired and the owner should sell the team.. Nothing I've mentioned above is an excuse, it's fact. it's whats happened. It's real. Nothing made up. Yet so few see any reason to allow things to mature and grow with time. I know that there is a faction of fans that wanted Heckert to open up the coffers and play the "Rent A Player" game. and there is some validity to that thinking.. If done right, you can really add a bunch of talent and on paper, it could look amazing. But it's no guarantee.. Look at Philly or DC.. The one thing it does for sure is, load up your salary cap and that could hinder future growth. The other method (the one we seem to be following) is slow, painful and can get us fans really frustrated. But if done right, you could end up like Pittsburgh or New England or Indy.. with a team that contends every year for a long long time. I'm frustrated with how long it's taking,,, and I recognize that we are all kinda ticked off that the last 10 years has pretty much been wasted.. But do we blame the current regime? We shouldn't do that. it's thier second campaign, I want to remind everyone one more time,, Chuck Noll wasn't a success coming out of the box his first couple of years. (12 wins and 30 losses in his first three years. the first of which was a 1 win season.) We all know the rest of the story. That doesn't mean that Shurmur gets a pass on bad decisions, but it does mean that there could be light at the end of the tunnel and it's possible for it to NOT be an oncoming train. Like it or not, we don't have a choice but to give this regime time..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
IMO the most important thing for a GM is to hit on draft picks in the first two rounds. I know that seems like it's something that should be easy but it's not. It's why Pittsburgh and Baltimore are so successful. Their first rounders and second rounders are studs, they're coached up, then they serve as the foundation on which to build.
The difference is that we couldn't just draft guys that were going to be really good football players in rounds 1 and 2.. we needed to draft some phenoms.. and on that front we haven't yet (other than Joe Thomas) but all of the rest are either gone or they are still a work in progress (Taylor, Haden, et.al.)
I guess what I'm saying is, I can draft an offensive player 28th and plug him into the Colts (with Manning) or Patriots offense and make him look pretty good a heck of a lot easier than I can draft a guy 4th and plug him into OUR offense and make him look good. Same goes for defense, take Troy Polamalu (drafted 16th) and put him in the same situation here and people would think he was really good but he wouldn't stand out nearly as much as he does in Pittsburgh.
That's why rebuilding a team is so hard, you can't miss on a high draft pick.. EVER... you need 3 or 4 exceptional drafts in a row to take a traditional 4 or 5 win team and turn them into a consistent 11-12 win team... at that point it becomes much easier to just keep adding and replacing pieces and looking for the next superstar...
Look at the Lions, who have been about as successful as anybody in recent memory.. in the last 4 years they have taken Calvin Johnson, Gordon Cherilius, Matt Stafford, Brandon Pettigrew, Ndamukong Suh, Jahvid Best, Nick Fairly, Titus Young... and they are still a 7-5 team struggling to make the playoffs... The margin for error is extremely small when trying to rebuild an NFL team.. EXTREMELY SMALL..
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 10,246 |
Quote:
Gordon Cherilius
Or Gosder. 
I've said it a million times (well, maybe only 500,000), but the fans are frustrated with Holmgren/Heckert/Shurmur because we've struggled since 1999, even though they've had nothing to do with anything before last year. Kind of like we should be mad at Jabaal Sheard and want him cut just because Kamerion Wimbley didn't pan out here.
And believe me, I'm just as frustrated (bordering on apathetic) as the rest of you. But, I'm not going to advocate firing guys just because we've sucked in the past. Heck, if this group of guys was in charge starting in 1999, and this was 2000, we'd probably all feel pretty good about it.
But, the fact is, they were dealing with some 1999 talent in 2010, and still are in 2011.
We all hate the rebuilding thing, but if we're going to get it right, it's going to take some time.
And this ties in with this thread. Sheard has talent, big-time. He's raw, yes, but he's impressive so far. This is the kind of player that we need, and if Heckert can continue bringing in guys like this, we're going to be competitive sooner rather than later.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620 |
Django,
You hit the nail right on the head. I'm really happy with Heckert. I disagree with you, in that I think we got great value on the McCoy pick. The guy was a third rounder, and for now he's filling that starting spot. For a third rounder to take over a spot from an aging vet (as bad as Delhomme was) is still good (for a 3rd rounder). Off topic, whether it's by Colt finding his game or a new body tossed into the fire, that QB spot will improve soon, so there's no way we're done with the QB position.
Heckert is getting really good value, that third round pick included. Lauvao wasn't his, as you mentioned, but Pinkston was.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,021
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 51,021 |
To me the way a draft pick has great value is not if he is starting, but rather if he is starting and effective.
Hell, if Haag starts the rest of the way, and gets burnt across the board, is he a great value pick? He's a 7th rounder, and would be starting ...... but I still wouldn't see him as a value pick unless his play makes him valuable.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293
2nd String
|
|
2nd String
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 293 |
Quote:
Quote:
I don't think I've ever seen a Browns player better at stripping the football, hes unreal at it.
Maybe Michael Dean Perry? But, agreed... he's very good at it.
I'm only 22, my memories of the Browns go as far back as losing since 1999.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
Quote:
Does anyone know or have an idea of who Heckert WANTED when Holmgren insisted on McCoy? I know a player's mother who is 100% convinced Heckert was about to take him there. Just curious as to whether this was general knowledge among the draft-niks . . .
Yes. Heckert was ready to take Corey Peters, DT Kentucky with the pick. The Falcons picked him two spots ahead of their pick, which opened the door for Holmgren to ask for McCoy.
If Peters was on the board he would have been the selection.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,952
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,952 |
Quote:
Django,
I disagree with you, in that I think we got great value on the McCoy pick. The guy was a third rounder, and for now he's filling that starting spot. For a third rounder to take over a spot from an aging vet (as bad as Delhomme was) is still good (for a 3rd rounder). Off topic, whether it's by Colt finding his game or a new body tossed into the fire, that QB spot will improve soon, so there's no way we're done with the QB position.
Amen.
Good post!
A third round pick, and people are tearing him apart like we sold the farm to get him.
I'd LOVE to see what "fans" do with a first round qb pick on this team.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 42,413 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 7,234 |
Quote:
Quote:
Does anyone know or have an idea of who Heckert WANTED when Holmgren insisted on McCoy? I know a player's mother who is 100% convinced Heckert was about to take him there. Just curious as to whether this was general knowledge among the draft-niks . . .
Yes. Heckert was ready to take Corey Peters, DT Kentucky with the pick. The Falcons picked him two spots ahead of their pick, which opened the door for Holmgren to ask for McCoy.
If Peters was on the board he would have been the selection.
Bingo. Never went out to verify that was true. But his Mommy told my Daddy that she was convinced he'd be a Brown . . . Look at me and my inside connections to the biz . . . 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,186 |
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcsouth/post/_/id/9904/falcons-made-browns-choice-on-qbFalcons made Browns' choice on QB April, 27, 2010 4/27/10 10:40 AM ET Email Print Comments By Pat Yasinskas Cleveland president Mike Holmgren, general manager Tom Heckert and coach Eric Mangini are getting all the credit for landing quarterback Colt McCoy. But let’s give Atlanta general manager Thomas Dimitroff some of the credit for that. Without him, there’s a very good chance McCoy would not have been taken by Cleveland. In the aftermath of the draft, the Browns have admitted they were focused on defensive tackle Corey Peters and were giving him serious consideration as their No. 85 pick approached. In fact, Heckert was leaning heavily toward Peters, although Holmgren had McCoy in his sights. But Dimitroff helped prevent a potential battle in Cleveland’s draft room. He stepped in and took Peters at No. 83 and that basically made Cleveland’s decision to go with McCoy. Still doesn't say who Heckert would have picked had Holmgren not lobbied for McCoy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
To me the way a draft pick has great value is not if he is starting, but rather if he is starting and effective.
Hell, if Haag starts the rest of the way, and gets burnt across the board, is he a great value pick? He's a 7th rounder, and would be starting ...... but I still wouldn't see him as a value pick unless his play makes him valuable.
So Taylor and Sheard and Ward and Rubin etc. are effective, because we are 31st in the NFL in run defense and tied for 22nd in sacks.... but because we are 24th in the NFL in passing offense, McCoy is NOT effective?
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Sheard has exceeded my expectations so far. I truly hope he continues to do so and is a draft pick that gets better in his 2nd season (something that doesn't seem to happen to us very often) http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/dlLooking at the table with directional runs, you can see that while teams have been able to run up the middle and to their left at will (our RDE - Mitchell mostly) they have not been able to run to their right (our LDE - Sheard). part of that was Fujita, part of that was Sheard. good to have something positive though (still middle of the road NFL wise, but for our run defense that is actually good)
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,761 |
Quote:
So Taylor and Sheard and Ward and Rubin etc. are effective, because we are 31st in the NFL in run defense and tied for 22nd in sacks.... but because we are 24th in the NFL in passing offense, McCoy is NOT effective?
CLE Offense: 4.5yds/play tied for 30th
CLE Defense: 5.1yds/play tied for 7th
Your argument was what again?
As for Peters....I didn't even know about that and my respect for Heckert just got bigger....I liked Peters a lot and he has started since day 1 in ATL, 26 starts, 4sacks (3this season in 11 games)....would have been interesting what Heckert would have done if both were available but it seems clear he had Peters ranked over McCoy...I really wish Holmgren would sut up on draft day and let Heckert do his job....he failed as a GM big time and I don't want him to be in Heckert's ears getting him from his game...
re McCoy-value: McCoy wasn't terrible value for a 3rd rounder but the time we have wasted on him is a big problem....that's what happens when you draft so-so talent at the most important position...we should have learned from the Frye-experience (and no, Im not saying McCoy is Frye...just comparing the situations)
So, while McCoy was decent value as he's looks like a better backup...problem is he wasn't used s a backup, he was/is our starter...and that's where he loses value
Doesn't make sense for the homer? Here's an example....let's look at Lauvao, he was drafted in the vicinity of McCoy in the same draft....if I say he's a below AVG starter but a decent backup but reality is he's starting...so, how's his value for you now? The majority of this board wants him replaced, pretty much every Colt supporter wants him upgraded....but reality is...they are at the same level compared to the rest of the league at their respective positions, which is "below AVG to bad" starter but decent backup with now some experience
Now, I realize that 1 is a G and the other is a QB...QBs have much more value on position alone but when you start them, they're all equal, they're all starters among others...so my question would be: was Colt less of a "bad" pick than Lauvao? IF so, then please explain WHY?
edit: and before anyone jumps at me because of my Mack-argument on value...Mack was a 1st rounder and set up (and handcuffed) the draft....with Lauvao-McCoy we're talking 3rd to 5th pick in a team's draft class, so there's less "damage" you do in the sense of handcuffing yourself on value later in the draft...by the time mid rounds start EVERY position has value, since every position has been picked already...C, G, QB....it's all about BPA then...but I maintain that it's wiser (more value) to draft a Top 1-5 player at a high value position (QB, DE, DT, LT, CB) in the 1st and draft the 3rd to 6th best interior OL, S, OLB (lower value positions) than drafting the BEST C, G or OLB and then having to gamble on the 6th to 10th best player at value positions...that's what happend with Eric "outsmart" Mangini in the 2009 draft...he took the best C, but then scrambled for the 5th+ best WRs and even worse for projects pass rusher when the best where off the board already...he could have drafted Orakpo or Barwin and then Levitre....or Maclin or Nicks and then Loadholt/Levitre....instead he went supposedly "safe" with Mack and had to throw prayers at Robo, Massa and Veikune
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620 |
I hear you, Django, I really do. The problem I have is that he's apparently the best we got. That isn't on him, it's on the talent level for his position when he's coming onto the team. I guess I'm doing the "it's not his fault" argument. According to you, he's terrible blah blah blah, but he's also the best we've got. Unfortunately, with the state of the team right now, those two statements are true at the same time. Who are we going to trot out there in his place? I'm convinced Wallace would be just as bad as McCoy with 0 upside (you say McCoy has no upside, but Wallace REALLY has no upside).
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 14,620 |
Django and Ytown,
I think your perception of value is a little off (or I'm getting confused). You say that because he's ineffective as a starter, the value isn't there. Put another way, if he was a backup, then we would be getting better value out of him? I think that's the wrong way of looking at it. You are talking about guys that we HAVE to start because we don't have the talent level to give them adequate competition. That has no bearing on draft value at all.
"FIALURE IS NOT AN OPTION...!"
-mac
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Quote:
CLE Offense: 4.5yds/play tied for 30th
CLE Defense: 5.1yds/play tied for 7th
Your argument was what again?
Uh, my argument is the same one you have made on here yourself. We are 31st in the NFL in pass plays against us and 2nd in the NFL in run plays against us for 2 reasons, one is that we can't stop the run and two is that teams are almost always playing with a lead and don't fear our offense.. the average defense gives up in the low 4s in rushing yards and the mid 7s in passing yards per attempt... it only stands to reason that if teams do not have to throw, then the average per play against you will be less.
If you want to believe that our total defense is only a handful of spots behind the Ravens and the Steelers then you go right ahead believing that.. I do believe that our defense is farther along than our offense but then we have made a much greater investment in our defense over the last few years... MUCH GREATER...
Oh and based on your statistic, the worst defense in the NFL is the Green Bay Packers... and near the bottom is the Saints...
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Jabaal Sheard
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)
