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Do QB's come out of college ready to plug in and play? If not what is the best way to "develop" a QB?
Do the Browns have any idea about how to develop a QB?
Legit questions. The history of QB's coming into the league and how they were handled and what were the results should beg all kinds of questions.
Look at the recent history of the Browns and maybe we can deduce how not to handle a QB.
Tim Coach however you rate him (good, bad, or ugly) was thrown into the lineup with very little preparation and under extreme adverse conditions. No line, few tools to work with and overall a pretty bad team. Result - little success, beaten to a pulp, and washed out of the game.
Look at the year Alex Smith and Aaron Rodgers came out. How they were handled and what was the result? Smith drafted first went right to starting on a bad team. He struggled. Team changed HC"s, OC's, and systems. He got benched. Left for dead. Now after years of nothingness he is having a Pro Bowl year.
Rodgers everyone knows the story. Team continuity, sat and learned one offense. After three years of watching he gets his chance on a good team. He becomes all world.
Brady Quinn and flip the coin. What a fiasco. Not to say Quinn was or will ever be good but not what I would call "development".
Now Colt McCoy. Third rounder suppose to sit, observe, and learn. Circumstances arose and into the fire he goes. More than half of this season he is behind a pores line( with basically 2 rookie guards, and Tony Pashos playing on a bad ankle) (like he needs a bad ankle), and a fourth string RB, to go along with maybe the worst receiving corps in the league. Throw in no off season, new coaching staff, and new offensive and defensive schemes. Certainly a formula for great achievement.
Result - gee what a surprise loses and a concussion.
There is a right way to develop a QB. The problem is the pressure to win and to get results NOW, plus the money committed, the expectations of the fan base, and the overall position of the team, force bad decisions. Some teams like the Patriots and Packers have the roster, the time, and patience to do it right. Then there are teams like the Browns that are so hungry for results that anybody with an arm and a pulse looks better than what they have in there. So the fans scream "get the next guy in there" - kind of like "bring in a relief pitcher please". Then when the performance suffers they look for the noose and a neck to put in it.
I sure hope we get Andrew Luck or RG III . I'm sure they will save the day.
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Anecdotes aren't valid compared to legitimate statistics.
From what I recall... Aaron Rodgers is a rare QB in that he was drafted in the first round and did not start his rookie season. I don't know if there is any other QB in the league where that is true. Edit: Locker
I won't do an exhaustive explanation, but off the top of my head... nearly every starting QB in the league started their rookie season. Especially first rounders. There are rare exceptions like Rodgers and Locker, but it is prevailing norm. Later rounds tend to have players sit ala Brady, Fitzpatrick, Schaub. Ideally we would have a Brett Favre, Bulger/Palmer, Vick for McCoy to play behind, but that isn't the case.
We tried with Dilfer and Delhomme and it wasn't a long-term fix.
Last edited by Kingcob; 12/21/11 12:56 PM.
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Quote:
Anecdotes aren't valid compared to legitimate statistics.
From what I recall... Aaron Rodgers is a rare QB in that he was drafted in the first round and did not start his rookie season. I don't know if there is any other QB in the league where that is true. Edit: Locker
I won't do an exhaustive explanation, but off the top of my head... nearly every starting QB in the league started their rookie season. Especially first rounders. There are rare exceptions like Rodgers and Locker, but it is prevailing norm. Later rounds tend to have players sit ala Brady, Fitzpatrick, Schaub. Ideally we would have a Brett Favre, Bulger/Palmer, Vick for McCoy to play behind, but that isn't the case.
We tried with Dilfer and Delhomme and it wasn't a long-term fix.
Locker has started at least a game for the Titans though. Ponder didn't start the year, nor did Gabbert if we are letting the rule be they didn't start the year.
You are off though because I remember other QBs who were high picks that did not start immediately in their rookie year. Carson Palmer being the best that sat his entire rookie year (Kitna).
#gmstrong
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Minus like a few injury starts, Philip Rivers sat a while as well, didn't he? And that was following the crazy Rivers/Manning draft fiasco.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Minus like a few injury starts, Philip Rivers sat a while as well, didn't he? And that was following the crazy Rivers/Manning draft fiasco.
yessir he did sit as that was Brees blowup probowl year (where he injured his shoulder in late dec)
#gmstrong
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In our case why sit a guy a year when those ahead of you on the depth chart can only teach you bad habits?
Sit behing Peyton, Favre, Brady or someone their calibre and it's another story.
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Theoretically, you're sitting and learning from your coaches, not so much the guy in front of you on the depth chart. And if you are worth where you are selected, you'll realize that there are no bad examples. Even sitting behind a crappy QB is a series of good lessons - even if they are lessons on what NOT to do.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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With this crew he'd certainly get a lesson on the "what not to do"!
He'd better have a word seach or a crossword handy come mid game! BOOORIIING!!!
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I don't think the Team, Fans, or Media have a clue. I think we have had some de3cent QBs in town that we have run off. Does anybody really think Quinn had a fair shot? How about Couch, Frye and now Colt.Did you ever notice that young QBs that make it usually do with good teams. If Colt had one good receiver we would have won a couple of more games. If our Coach had a little more experience we might have won a couple more. They both need time to develop.Remember its easier to get very good linemen or any position really late in the !st r4ound. Qbs with all the tools are different. So now we are talking another QB in the 1st round, RG3, Landry, Barkley. Two of these guys might be smaller than Colt. We listen to much to guys like that Jewish figure skater from Denver on Sportstalk radio. He wants to fire the Coach, Mike Holgram. Colt. He has been trying to get rid of them since before the season started. He's 27 and knows everything.
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Lesson #1 in sports is that if you are listening to the media for clues on what you should do, you need to have your head checked.
NOBODY should pay attention to the talking heads on TV and radio that are suggesting what we should do.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Lesson #1 in sports is that if you are listening to the media for clues on what you should do, you need to have your head checked.
NOBODY should pay attention to the talking heads on TV and radio that are suggesting what we should do.
I agree but it seems like all Cleveland is fired up to run everybody out of town.
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NOBODY should pay attention to the talking heads on TV and radio that are suggesting what we should do.
That's right..when you can find all the answers right here !!! 
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Lesson #1 in sports is that if you are listening to the media for clues on what you should do, you need to have your head checked.
NOBODY should pay attention to the talking heads on TV and radio that are suggesting what we should do.
I agree but it seems like all Cleveland is fired up to run everybody out of town.
That's because everybody is impatient, short-sighted and listens to the likes of Tony Grossi & Mary Kay.
This town doesn't know what to do with itself if there isn't any drama, doom and gloom to blame for its lack of patience in building things and constantly tearing everything down.
It's an "almost was" town stuck in an inferiority complex with delusions of grandeur.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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It's an "almost was" town stuck in an inferiority complex with delusions of grandeur.
Jezus...
Looks like Tiny Tim is in for a rough Christmas... 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Yeah, I'm in a mood today, lol... but the point stands and I feel is quite valid. 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I wasn't sure if you meant a first round QB had any starts his rookie year, or if he started game 1 his rookie year.
So either way lets see among active starting QBs. I wont include QB's acquired in FA whether they were first round picks or not... lets stick with franchise qb's or young qb's
Ben Roth - Started game 2 Rookie Year
Joe Flacco - Started game 1 due to injury to kyle boller
Mark Sanchez - Started game 1 beat out Clemens in Training Camp
Jake Locker - Started in November against Atlanta
Peyton Manning - Started game 1
Blaine Gabbart - Started game 3
Philip Rivers - Started last game of 2nd season
Tim Tebow - Started in Nov rookie year
Aaron Rodgers - Started game 1 of 3rd season
Christian Ponder - Started October 18 rookie season
Matt Stafford - Started game 1 rookie season
Eli Manning - Started in Nov rookie year
Josh Freeman - Started in Nov rookie year
Cam Newton - Started game 1
Matt Ryan - Started game 1
Alex Smith - started game 2
Sam Bradford - started game 1
So
17 QBs Sample Size (not a big one hehe)
7 QBs did start game 1 rookie year
10 QBs did not start game 1 rookie year
5 QBs started in rookie year but not game 1
Looks about 50/50 to me given the small sample size. I think what happens honestly is the QB's taken very high (1st overall) are on teams that literally have no QB of note and so the rookie wins just because he's better even in raw form. In the other cases it's either injury or possibly pressure on the coaching staff.
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It's going to likely always be a 50/50 kinda thing. Simply, if nothing else, because you're dealing with humans, not machines. Some guys, by virtue of situation or injury will come in and start right away. Some will do well, some won't. Conversely, some will get to sit and learn - but again, some will do well, some won't. There is no exact recipe for success. Further clouding it is that MUCH of how successful a player will be falls on coaching, how well are they suited to the scheme, what players does he have around him, what teams are on the schedule for him that season and how good are they at the time they play? Is the team that week missing a star defender, etc..? There's a multitude of factors that affect everything and quite frankly, often it just boils down to luck of the draw.... the rest is in the individual. How well do they pull themselves up. How resilient are they, how much inner drive do they have, etc..? Basically, it boils down to two things: the things you can't control and the things you can't measure, lol!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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From what I recall... Aaron Rodgers is a rare QB in that he was drafted in the first round and did not start his rookie season. I don't know if there is any other QB in the league where that is true. Edit: Locker
Carson Palmer sat his first year, same with Phillip Rivers. Can't think of any others off the top of my head
#GMSTRONG
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Damanshot
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It all depends on far back you want to look? And the round drafted.
Matt Cassel
Steve McNair
Matt Schuab
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It seems to me that QBs either start their first year or are sitting behind Pro-bowl QBs. Kitna/Palmer being the exception due to chronic benglism.
Rivers - Brees. Schaub - Vick. Brady (6th rd) - Bledsoe. Matt Cassel - Brady. Rodgers - Favre.
McNair may be an exception depending on what you think about 1995 Chris Chandler.
Sitting Barkley behind McCoy, Wallace, or Flynn would make the fans upset.
Talented QBs are hard to find. And the rookie versions of Probowl Qbs are typically better than career backups.
This is why Dilfer didn't get a whole year. He wasn't clearly superior to a rookie Charlie Frye. You need a good QB to be able to justify the rookie sitting.
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Minus like a few injury starts, Philip Rivers sat a while as well, didn't he? And that was following the crazy Rivers/Manning draft fiasco.
yessir he did sit as that was Brees blowup probowl year (where he injured his shoulder in late dec)
Rivers sat 2 years. Brees was injured the last game of the second year, 2005. Brees injured shoulder and all was a free agent, and the Chargers went with Rivers. Brees first made the Pro Bowl in 2004.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!…. That did not age well.
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I sure hope we get Andrew Luck or RG III . I'm sure they will save the day.
It's obvious there's 2 trains of thought here concerning QB's...
Build the team first...Insert QB...
Get what u believe to be a Franchise QB NOW if u don't have one...
We don't have one and if we have a shot at Luck or Barkley u JUMP on it...
We have a decent OL...Need to upgrade RT...
With Jax coming back...We need a decent RB...Hardesty will be here...Hillis gone...Finding a decent RB is not that hard...
We need ONE bonafide WR...Little is here to stay...Mo would be a good #3...Norwood's showing he can be a keeper...Not hard to find...
Decent OL upgraded with a RT...Decent RB's upgraded with a pick-up...And a bonafide WR added and this group becomes decent...Get Luck or Barkley and u insert them DAY ONE...
Add a FS/DE/LB and this defense improves...That helps...Ask Tebow...The "Wind-Up" king of the NFL...lol...
Go Browns!!!
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The longer this year goes on, the more I think that Hillis will be back next year ...... quite possibly on a 1 year deal.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The longer this year goes on, the more I think that Hillis will be back next year ...... quite possibly on a 1 year deal.
I get sort of the same feeling. I'd love to see him offered a solid contract plus some good incentive bonuses. He seems to be running hard, and these last 2 games could go a long way to him being here next year.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
-Derek Jeter
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It all depends on far back you want to look? And the round drafted.
Matt Cassel
Steve McNair
Matt Schuab
Well, he talked about 1st rounders only so that leaves Schaub and Cassel out of the equation.
I forgot about McNair. good catch
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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We could also go back to Kosar (a first round supplemental draft pick) who sat behind Gary Danielson until Danielson got hurt. Kosar stepped in and played well. Of course, it didn't hurt that he had 2 1,000 yard rushers in his backfield!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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Bonefish: well-put about the impossible situation McCoy was thrust into. And he has a decent 14-11 TD-Pick ratio. He deserves better, but it seems hard to get around the fact that he is smallish and doesn't have the big arm.
We won't have the chance to grab a potential franchise QB while still picking to fill another need in the first round very often. But Barkley and RG 3 are also a bit short and Landry Jones has the prototypical body but people are questioning him, too.
Here's what I'd do: Trade the high pick to Seattle, which most certainly covets Barkley. Get their No. 1, No. 2 and maybe next year's No. 1. Take Richardson, Michael Floyd, a RT and grab Tannehill with their No. 2. Quarterbacks ALWAYS fall, because even if they are good, teams early in the draft get them in Round 1 and teams late in the draft don't need them. I could even see Landry Jones falling to us early in Round 2. Let Colt have another year with a better cast while the new guy learns, then evaluate in 2013. This is gonna take some time.
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You just described my ideal draft. Thank you.
Pick up some LBs in the 3-5 range and we're set.
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We could also go back to Kosar (a first round supplemental draft pick) who sat behind Gary Danielson until Danielson got hurt. Kosar stepped in and played well. Of course, it didn't hurt that he had 2 1,000 yard rushers in his backfield!
And an Oline that blocked and receivers that could catch and Lindy Infante calling the plays..
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Damanshot
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The last time we had a great team was when Marty ran the defense and Infante called the plays. One of Holmgren's biggest mistakes was, in addition to hiring an old buddy's unproven nephew to be the coach, LETTING HIM BE THE OC! And call the plays! That is ridiculous. I'm not opposed to getting a rookie head coach, but he's gonna be in over his head anyway, and to let him have all that control is just terrible.
Look at San Fran. They turned things around in one season. Harbaugh surrounded himself with wily veteran assistant coaches and didn't try to do everything himself. If you had asked me coming into this season which team had better personnel, I would've had to think about it. I'm not saying fire Shurmur, but he has had a really bad first year. Don't forget, this was a really easy schedule. If we suck next year, Shurmur and Holmgren have got to go. Heckert, I'd keep.
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And an Oline that blocked and receivers that could catch and Lindy Infante calling the plays..
I can't believe how long it's been since we've had that combination on the Browns!
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do.
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From what I recall... Aaron Rodgers is a rare QB in that he was drafted in the first round and did not start his rookie season. I don't know if there is any other QB in the league where that is true. Edit: Locker
Carson Palmer sat his first year, same with Phillip Rivers. Can't think of any others off the top of my head
Actually Aaron Rodgers is rare because he was drafted in the first round and he only appeared in 7 games with no starts and only had 35 attempts in his first THREE YEARS. I think all of the research in the world isn't going to find many guys like that who then went on to be good.
It shows how you can find players of great value when you don't have to draft for need... the Packers were coming off 4 consecutive 10 win seasons, they had a 4 win season blip in his first year but then quickly got better. He also played behind a QB that NEVER got hurt, which is a luxury most 1st and 2nd year QB picks don't have... then his first year as a starter was on a team that was coming off a 13-3 season...
It really was the "perfect storm" situation as a QB draft pick..
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Trade the high pick to Seattle, which most certainly covets Barkley. Get their No. 1, No. 2 and maybe next year's No. 1. Take Richardson, Michael Floyd, a RT and grab Tannehill with their No. 2. Quarterbacks ALWAYS fall, because even if they are good, teams early in the draft get them in Round 1 and teams late in the draft don't need them. I could even see Landry Jones falling to us early in Round 2.
Richardson, Luck, Barkley, Tannehill, L.Jones, RGIII, and Blackmon, will all probably be 1st round picks.
I think alot of teams late in the draft will be wanting quarterbacks this year.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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There aren't many good QBs in the league over 30.. Hasselbeck is 36, Brady is 34, Brees is 32, Eli Manning and Rivers are 30... Peyton Manning is 35...
Brees is a still a little young to draft his replacement, but if anybody wants to follow the Packers model, this is the year for Seattle, Indy and New England to go get their late first round QB pick and let him sit for a few years. I think its possible that the Colts, if they think Peyton is going to play for a few more years, could trade back and load up on picks, then take a Tannehill later in the draft with the intention of letting him sit for a couple years and maybe Tannehill or Jones with a couple years of sitting and watching Peyton is better than Andrew Luck right away...
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I think the Pats feel like they did that last year with Mallett.
and by Hasselbeck, did you mean Tenn? Because Locker is doing alright when he's been put in the game for a rookie.
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One of Holmgren's biggest mistakes was, in addition to hiring an old buddy's unproven nephew to be the coach, LETTING HIM BE THE OC!
Unbelievable. do you REALLY think that holmgren hired Shurmur because of his relationship to Fritz? WOW,, talk about looking deep to find a smoking gun.
I guess it doesn't matter at all that Shurmur came up through the ranks working for a Holmgren deciple (Andy reid in Philly) then was an OC in St. Louis for a couple of years. And that he was groomed in the Holmgren version of the WCO..
Of course, to you, none of that matters.. he was hired because he was Fritz Shurmurs nephew..... 
#GMSTRONG
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Nepotism and the old boys network runs rampant in the NFL, so it would not be surprising in the least if that wasn't a factor in the process.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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The longer this year goes on, the more I think that Hillis will be back next year ...... quite possibly on a 1 year deal.
I agree.
Hardesty will be the odd man out next year, IMO. He is the worst runner on the team, and Jackson will be coming back.
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Nepotism and the old boys network runs rampant in the NFL, so it would not be surprising in the least if that wasn't a factor in the process.
Maybe a miniscule factor if it came down to two relatively equal candidates but I can't see anybody putting their own job on the line to hire the relative of a buddy.. just can't see it.
It's not like giving his nephew a chance to break into the league as the assistant special teams coach... this is HC/OC...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,561 |
Quote:
Nepotism and the old boys network runs rampant in the NFL, so it would not be surprising in the least if that wasn't a factor in the process.
Could it be a factor? of course. Was it the reason, I highly doubt it.
I could see that if it came down to roughly equal candidates, one having no relationship with a holmgren guy and Shurmur,, it may have been a factor,, Probably was in fact.
If Shurmur didn't have the resume he had, if he hadn't worked in the system he worked in for one of Holmgrens guys, he could be Holmgrens nephew and still wouldn't be the HC of the Browns..
holmgren isn't that stupid
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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