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Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are the exceptions.
You want a Super Bowl? You better have an elite Quarterback.
Well, when you're talking about "drafting an elite QB", you probably shouldn't count Favre, Warner, or Brees either, since they weren't drafted in the first round.
~Lyuokdea
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If you think there's an elite QB outside of round 1, that's a different discussion. I'm simply saying that you can't build a team then just insert a QB and it work.
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The biggest problem now, is that I only see one elite QB in this draft (Luck), and he won't be there when we pick.
I don't understand the fascination with Flynn, we'd be giving up on our 3rd round QB who hasn't shown much, to get a 7th round QB who's shown even less (and paying a lot for it).
I'd be more interested in getting a Kyle Orton, Alex Smith (if available), or Jason Campbell type - if we're that convinced that McCoy isn't the guy.
But more than that I'd be interested in keeping McCoy for another year and staying put. I'm just not that impressed outside of Luck.
~Lyuokdea
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I would rather not spend 3 #1 draft picks and RUIN Andrew Luck because we can't put a team around him...Because I DO value the QB position THAT MUCH....I would rather WAIT until QB is one of the last few pieces of the puzzle that we need...(and we are so far away from that scenario we can only dream about it) And THEN gamble with the draft picks to get the Big Arm....But if we cannot put the Big Arm into a semi stable situation...all we are going to do is set him up for failure and get him onto the top ten draft bust lists you see on NFL Network.
I feel a need to respond to this. I would love to wait for QB to be the last piece to the puzzle. So would most Browns fans. However, understand a few things: the bust rate SOARS for QB the deeper in the draft you go and it's really rare to find a bonafide stud QB at the top of the draft as well as actually having a Top 5 pick and extra 1st as ammo to go get him.
Would putting Luck onto the team right now be perfect? Nope. However, if Heckert dips into free agency for our offense and patches the line (Steinbach will help)/adds a weapon or two as well as focuses the rest of our draft on offense, I believe with 100% conviction that we're not bad enough to "ruin" a QB next year. Heck, I'd even venture to say that we'd be a better situation than most teams who draft a QB 1st overall. Stafford had it rough behind a much worse OL than ours and got injured multiple times. Is he ruined now or are the Lions going for their first playoff berth in who remembers how long?
There's another risk you have to consider when choosing not to go for a franchise QB. There's a legitimate chance that even if we try to build up a team before we get the QB that we're never able to find him and stay mediocre for a long time. To me, I'd rather deal up for Luck and gamble that he'll be OK for a year or two than try to get lucky on a franchise QB in the future.
We're... we're good?
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I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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You can bang your head all you want, but if Luck is truly what the scouts say he is, you're still wrong.
The time to take an elite QB? Whenever you don't have one. Period.
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Legend
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You can bang your head all you want, but if Luck is truly what the scouts say he is, you're still wrong.
The time to take an elite QB? Whenever you don't have one. Period.
Tough to argue that. Goes against several of the arguments that you ALWAYS draft an elite QB (like people saying Minnesota gives up on Ponder or the Rams give up on Bradford). I'm not saying they're elite, but it's still too early to tell on those guys.
For me, it comes down to asking price. If the Colts (or whoever's picking first) gives us Luck for only some picks in the 2011 draft, I think long and hard about it. But if they want anything beyond this year (meaning we have 2 years with Luck and really no additions of true top flight playmakers around him), then I'd probably walk away. That's just my "breaking point."
IMO, though, I think the Colts take Luck and, to trade out, they want a king's ransom. And that's just not worth it to me.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
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If by some miracle...Luck drops to us at 4 then YES BY ALL MEANS you Draft Andrew Luck....BUT you do not ...I repeat...YOU DO NOT give up the only chance to build this team to get him.
Because I GUARANTEE we will RUIN him or run him out of town. Without an OLine, a running game, or a recieving threat...he WILL FAIL....Go back and look at your lists....and tell me how much each team GAVE UP to DRAFT that player....and HOW LONG after giving up(if they gave up anything) they had to wait before that SB win......
Did GB give up anything for Rodgers???? No....(Rodgers had receivers and a luxury to sit)
Did the Colts give up anything for Peyton???No...(Peyton had Marshall Faulk)
Did Pittsburgh give up anything for Ben???No...(Ben rarely threw tha ball and Pitt had a GREAT running game)
Did the Pats give up anything for Brady???No...(Great team to start with)
Did the Cowboys give up anything for Aikman???No.....(they held the #1 and a crapload of picks to build with)
So what do we have???? and you want to give up 3 1st rounders????
Every other team on you list received their QB by other means unless you want to consider Eli....they gave up some picks(can't find what they were)...and even then it took 4 years to get to the Super Bowl...(and they still berate Eli) ....we won't even give Colt 2 years in the same offense...you think we will give Andrew Luck 4 years after trading away the best chance of putting talent around him????
I thought I was wrong once....but I was mistaken...
What's the use of wearing your lucky rocketship underpants if nobody wants to see them????
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Quote:
Average offensive talent + Elite Quarterback > Average Quarterback + Elite offensive talent.
Quarterbacks who have won Super Bowls since 1995...
Aaron Rodgers 24th overall
Drew Brees 32nd overall
Ben Rothlisberger 11th overall
Eli Manning 1st overall
Peyton Manning 1st overall
Tom Brady 199th overall
Brad Johnson 227th overall
Trent Dilfer 6th overall
Kurt Warner UDFA
John Elway 1st overall
Brett Favre 33rd overall
Troy Aikman 1st overall
Steve Young 1st of Supplemental Draft
I'll take my chances drafting an elite Quarterback.
Most are elite QBs. I won't get into how many other first round QBs have NOT won a superbowl but it's a massive list.. or how many #1 overall QBs have not won a superbowl, also a nice list.
How each of these QBs came to win superbowls is as varied as it can get, some started right away, some waited, some won with their first teams, some moved around first, some had success early, some not for years... the one thing they all have in common is that before they won a superbowl, they had some very good talent around them on offense and at least a good defense.
Not a single QB on that list ever had anybody pay a kings ransom and sell out to move up to get them like some people are suggesting we do. I believe the closest is the Eli Manning/Philip Rivers deal in which they traded firsts (a 1 and a 4 overall), and the Chargers got a 3rd that year and a 1st the following year...
The question is not do we need much better and more consistent QB play, of course we do... the question is what is the most prudent way to get it.... and my thoughts change almost daily on that.
yebat' Putin
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LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
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Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh! 
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
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Frankly, I don't understand the hard-on that some of you seem to have for Andrew Luck and what you'd be willing to give up for him.
It simply defies logic! It's mind-boggling!
And it's even more Mind Boggling that u don't understand the importance of acquiring what's got a HIGH LIKELIHOOD of being a STUD running your offense... 
Oh, I do, but I don't think any of these QBs are Peyton Manning, where you have your OC on the field.
Currently, Shurmur is the OC and nobody knows who they'll bring in as the OC or who'll take that ridiculous job under THIS head coach.
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Sorry folks, but giving up...
BOTH 2012 First Rounders
2013 First Rounder
A 2nd Rounder in either year
Any combo of 4 thru 7's...
...is just plain "nuts".
It's certifiably insane! 
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Quote:
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LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
Quote:
Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
If he stayed in college it was to try to win a championship and improve himself.. if he improves himself he will go at least as high if not higher than he would have this year, which means he is going to go to a really bad team.. there is nothing he can do to avoid that unless his bold masterplan is to sort of tank this year in hopes he drops and gets drafted in the 20s by a much better team, then he runs the risk of sitting for a few years...
It's a catch 22.. you want to excel and be drafted high, doing that means you generally go to a pretty bad team... I'm sure he understands that.
yebat' Putin
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Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
The Colts would also have a top pick in every round of the draft. Who says they can't help themselves to win now with taking Luck and using those others to "win now".
I still haven't read a single logical reason why the Colts would not select Luck. IF he's as a lock elite QB as every scout, NFL GM, media member and internet message board talker says he is.....WHY would they not take him? Manning is old and just missed an entire year because of a problem with his neck (not a minor broken bone in his non-throwing arm). And they, of all teams, should know what an elite QB can do for a franchise.
Do you think they would trade the #1 pick for 3 first rounders and a 2nd rounder back in 1998 knowing what Manning would do over the next 13 years (11 Pro Bowls, 4 MVPs, Super Bowl win, Super Bowl MVP, deep playoff runs almost every year, lock HOFamer & Colts career leader in wins, passing yards, TDs)? HELL FREAKING NO!
And with Manning's cost, known/unknown injury status, age and seeing they have a chance to replace a HOFamer with a potential HOFamer at the toughest position in professional sports....why would they trade that gift away for a bunch of random picks? It doesn't add up. And on top of that, with the new CBA, Luck isn't all that much money on the cap (compared to Bradford's deal). AND one more, if they do want to win now, they obviously need a #2 QB, since they don't have one. If Manning were to get a different injury in week 13, they need someone to step in......and Luck would be that man.
If Manning was 23 years old and in perfect health coming off a 50 TD season.......I can see the debate to pass on Luck. But with all the real factors swirling around Manning, why would they not want to select him?
And for Luck, it would be a near perfect place to start out his career. He can learn behind one of the greats of all time, no immediate pressure to perform on a crappy team, being a LA guy he gets to play in a dome not some cold weather stadium like Cleveland or Buffalo, all the teams in his division are mild to warm weather teams (and aren't traditional powerhouses) and he can see how well it worked for Aaron Rodgers to hold a clipboard for a while. And the Colts franchise already knows how to cater to a star QB and surround him with talent.
Unless his dream is to play on the West Coast, NY or in Miami......I don't see why he'd have a problem with Indianapolis.
So, why would Indy be so eager to give up Luck? The "you do whatever it takes to get that franchise QB when he's available" statement doesn't just get used for teams that stink and don't have one....it also can be used on a team with an aging franchise QB that just missed an entire season with a neck problem.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Punchsmack/punch.gif) “...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Oh, and another thing, now that Barkley is out (and especially if RG3 is out) then I'm going back to my original plan.. which was to draft an offensive playmaker at 3 or 4, draft a right tackle in the second round... and trade the Falcons pick with somebody for their first round pick next year and go with Colt again next year.. or Wallace if they deem him to be that much better.
That way we add some help on offense for this year and we defer that additional first round pick to next year in case we need it to move up and get a QB... and with Barkley and RG3, plus anybody who steps forward next year, it will probably be a decent QB draft...
yebat' Putin
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If there is no Barkley and no RG3, then we go back to whatever the best pick for the Browns is. I don't see another QB worth the #2-6 pick in this draft. If that's the case, and if we don't make a move in free agency, then I suppose that we might look at a QB with our 2nd 1st rounder ...... or maybe our 2nd or 3rd round picks. Or maybe they take a flyer on Flynn. That's certainly not my first choice ...... but who knows.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quarterbacks in the playoffs if they started today ...
Tom Brady
Ben Rothlisberger
Matt Schaub (I know, TJ Yates, but Schaub got them there)
Tim Tebow
Joe Flacco
Mark Sanchez
Tony Romo
Aaron Rodgers
Drew Brees
Alex Smith
Matt Stafford
Matt Ryan
That's 12 Quarterbacks ...
8 first round Quarterbacks.
For the record, the QBs not taken in the first round.
Tom Brady - 6th round (199th pick overall)
Matt Schaub - 3rd round (90th pick overall)
Tony Romo - UDFA
Drew Brees - 2nd round (32nd pick overall)
Two of the 4 non-first rounders are probably among the most likely to make it to the Super Bowl (Brady, Brees) and both of them have already won Super Bowls.
It should be noted that Brees was the first pick of the second round.
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Legend
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Quote:
LMAO First you spew this beauty of reasoned logic:
Quote:
Is it possible that the threat that Barkley could be drafted by the Browns played a part in the fact that he decided to stay in college?
... and THEN you call out another poster on the logic of moving up for Luck?
Nice work dude. Thanks for the laugh!
So, you think that Barkley didn't consider that he might be drafted by the Browns? I honestly think that it could have played a part in his decision.
It COULD have.....but that's the same factor in EVERY draft. If you're going to be a top 5 picks, you're more than likely going to a small market crappy team. I don't think he thought "Cleveland" at all. Heck, anyone could have moved up ahead of us to pick him too. And he could always pull a Eli and simply say, "don't draft me Heckert."
I think Barkely wanted to not only be the big man on campus for a BCS title contending team.....but the biggest man in college football that would probably win the Heisman trophy and play for a BCS title contending team. This is his year to shine.
And like someone posted yesterday, his parents are wealthy and he probably has an insurance policy against a major injury. So, it's no big deal for him to stick around one more year and "be a kid".
I think some are giving too much credit to our suckiness to think it played any factor in Matt's decision.
“...Iguodala to Curry, back to Iguodala, up for the layup! Oh! Blocked by James! LeBron James with the rejection!”
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Who said ANYTHING about an elite QB vs Average or above average....I am merely talking about WHEN to try and get that elite QB...and RIGHT NOW when we cannot put him in a semi stable situation...and give him a chance to succeed....is NOT the right time to go and give up 3 FIRST rounders!!!! 
And WHEN exactly is the right time Pete???
When you've built a team that's 8-8 or 9-7 and you're drafting 22nd???...We're talking about 3 or 4 spots in a move up...And you're telling us that we CANNOT build this team if we lose some picks???...Seriously???...Open your mind a bit...
DAVE...Way off the mark...This is FAR from a 50-50 shot at success...This kid has EVERYTHING...These chumps that say 50-50 with high round one QB's are talking the likes of Gabbert/Smith/Ponder/Locker...NONE of whom are even in the same stratosphere as Luck...HUGE difference...
Go Browns!!!
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Like I said earlier in this thread, I think if Indy gets the #1 pick, they're going to keep Manning and try to win now.
Manning had 3-5 solid years left. They'll go all in and try to win another Super Bowl or two.
We can offer them the most help RIGHT NOW.
Give them both 1's and our #2 this year and I think Indy jumps all over that deal.
They'd be fools not to jump at that and the Browns would be fools to offer that much for moving up 3 or 4 spots. Period!
I don't give a damn if it's the first pick of the draft. You don't give up that much to move up 3 or 4 spots! You're sitting at 4 or 5 and you're giving up 2 first rounders! That's a Butch Davis move to move up one spot and give up a second rounder!
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You're not moving up for the pick. You're moving up for A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!
Throw your draft charts out the window here. A franchise Quarterback is MUCH more valuable than 3 picks.
If it took both our 1's, our 1 next year and a 3, I STILL make the trade.
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All quarterbacks have warts. With Barkley gone, Luck now has the weakest arm of the remaining QBs likely to go in the first 2 rounds. He has his strengths but so do the the other qbs.
Foles has a Howitzer for an arm. EJ Manuel looks a lot like Duante Culpepper back when he was a good QB. Jones the big arm and quick release. Tannehill great mobility and a strong arm and ran the Mike Sherman offense. Griffin is a better athlete than Michael Vick and has really good accuracy.
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We can argue all we want about if it's the right thing or not, but the fact is, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown next year.
You think part of reasoning for trading down last year to pick up another 1 this wasn't to give us more ammo to move up for Luck if we needed to?
Holmgren will want Luck. Holmgren will give up what is necessary to get that pick.
I'm telling you now, Andrew Luck will be a Cleveland Brown in 2012.
And I'm sure you're going to be here to complain that we gave up too much, but it's happening.
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If he stayed in college it was to try to win a championship and improve himself.. if he improves himself he will go at least as high if not higher than he would have this year, which means he is going to go to a really bad team.. there is nothing he can do to avoid that unless his bold masterplan is to sort of tank this year in hopes he drops and gets drafted in the 20s by a much better team, then he runs the risk of sitting for a few years...
It's a catch 22.. you want to excel and be drafted high, doing that means you generally go to a pretty bad team... I'm sure he understands that.
Maybe you're right. Maybe he stayed in with the hopes to win a national championship or bowl win with USC.
He might go ahead of where he would have this year (which looks to be either the 4 or 5 spot). Some other QB is going to be there next year challenging him for the top QB prospect. Nothing is a given.
Oh? Do you think that the Colts are a bad team? Without Manning, they appeared to be. They've shown some spunk the last two weeks and could be in position to draft Luck. I don't think sitting behind Manning a year or two should be taken as going to a 'bad team', despite the record.
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Luck's arm is stronger than Griffin's.
And please don't suggest RG3 is as good of a runner as Vick is. It's not even close.
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You're not moving up for the pick. You're moving up for A FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK!
Throw your draft charts out the window here. A franchise Quarterback is MUCH more valuable than 3 picks.
If it took both our 1's, our 1 next year and a 3, I STILL make the trade.
You're moving up a pick that could potentially be your franchise QB. Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL? Yeah, that turned out well for us.
Let's dispense with the hero worship crap, this team needs more than a QB (franchise or otherwise) and unless we get some legitimate weapons on the offensive side of the ball, it doesn't matter who we have as the field general.
Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers couldn't succeed with this team because the weapons aren't there. Pure and simple.
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RG3 is not a franchise QB.
All this talk about not wanting to give up picks for Luck, yet everyone is dead set on wasting a pick on RG3.
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I feel like the front office will stick with Colt and sign a DE in free agency.
1. Morris Claiborne, CB, LSU
1. Zach Brown, LB, UNC
2. Dwight Jones, WR, UNC
3. Levy Adcock, OT, Oklahoma State
4. Matt Reynolds, OT, BYU
4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
5. Doug Martin, RB, Boise State
6. Derrick Moye, WR, Penn State
7. Vaughn Meatoga, NT, Hawaii
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
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4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
I like this pick a lot. But I feel like he's going to shoot up a lot of draft boards and end up going earlier than this.
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RG3 is not a franchise QB.
All this talk about not wanting to give up picks for Luck, yet everyone is dead set on wasting a pick on RG3.
Back up your RG3 statements.
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Quote:
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4. Jarius Wright, WR, Arkansas
I like this pick a lot. But I feel like he's going to shoot up a lot of draft boards and end up going earlier than this.
It will come down to the combine
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
That's a pretty decent comparison for the hype coming out on draft day. Manning/Leaf are probably better comparisons though.
~Lyuokdea
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Wasn't Tim Couch supposed to be that when the Browns returned to the NFL?
You're comparing Luck to Couch now? Okay.
That's a pretty decent comparison for the hype coming out on draft day. Manning/Leaf are probably better comparisons though.
If by decent comparison, you mean awful comparison, I agree.
1998 draft - Who do take first, Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf? That was the debate
1999 draft - Who do you take first, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb or Akili Smith? That was the debate
There's no debate about Luck.
He's the #1 pick in the past 10 drafts.
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True - but that's just due to the relative weakness of the rest of this years QB class (compared to 98/99 which were legendary QB years)
Peyton Manning and Ryan Leaf would probably both be picked ahead of Luck - Couch and Luck (or Smith/McNabb and Luck) would still spark a debate right now.
I also think there's a good chance that Vick would have gone ahead of Luck.
~Lyuokdea
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~Lyuokdea
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Joined: Sep 2006
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lol
Good response.
Do you think, "Ryan Leaf would go ahead of Andrew Luck" deserves an actual response?
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) 2012 Draft Continued
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