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Don't want to get into the middle of this, but Marshall Faulk did the turnaround for the rams. Yes Kurt Warner was the QB and came out of nowhere, but watching the NFL program America's Team, and other stuff, the players all say it wouldn't have been possible without Faulk. St Louis had TONS of talent and playmakers in place for Kurt to succeed, I don't think he elevated their game as much as they did his. He went on to become a GREAT qb, but wouldn't have gotten to where he was without those WR's and especially Faulk. Just my humble opinion.
Statistics are like a bikini; what they show is interesting, but what they hide is vital.
Drive for show (1st round), Putt for dough (rest of draft).
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I am calling for this team to finally try to properly address the QB position with an elite talent.
And that's why nobody should care what you call for. Elite QB? LOL How many elite QBs are there?
Wait, THAT'S your argument?
Why, exactly, should we settle for mediocre QB talent? Oh, and the San Francisco argument is weak at best. The reason they went 13-3 is Frank Gore and the best defense in the NFL. And the NFC West is friggin terrible.
you had a good run Hank.
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JK
One thing to remember for all the trade 3 1st rounders for Luck people.
The Panthers got their QB and won a few more games this year AND have the 8th pick in this draft because they didnt have to give up anything for him.
If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.
If a QB they like falls to them great snatch him up hopefully get some more talent around him and continue that next year. Finally we would have to be assured that Luck would sign with us he could just pull a Manning say Im not playing in Cleveland.2nd year head coach no RB no WR and no chance to get any playmakers next year. Toughest division in FB. I'd pass on that prospect too.
Next year we play NFC East Afc west plus Buffalo and Indy and our division. How many games do you really think we can win? I say 4-7 = Top 10 pick
Just seems like way to much to give up for my tastes.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.
Cool...Let's do that...And we go with McCoy again...
And next year we still need a QB...Cool...Let's do that too...
Then when this team is so "Built"...Let's be continuously talking about needing a QB because we can't get over the 8-8/9-7 hump...Cool...Let's do that too...
QB's don't grow on trees...Brady has blown every single one of your BRAINS...It don't work like that on a CONSISTENT basis...
We have an opportunity...And when u have that opportunity U TAKE IT if u can...Or u suffer in the lapse of mediocrity...
Holmgren...Heckert...Do EVERYTHING U CAN to secure the likes of Luck...Or Griffin IF u believe these guys r FRANCHISE QUALITY QB'S...It's the right thing to do...And the SMART thing to do...
Go Browns!!!
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If we trade all those picks we will again finish up picking in the top 10 and lose that vital pick next year. If we stand pat same story but we have probably 3 more excellent players (the 2 1st and 2nd round pick) plus our whole draft next year to continue building.
Cool...Let's do that...And we go with McCoy again...
And next year we still need a QB...Cool...Let's do that too...
Then when this team is so "Built"...Let's be continuously talking about needing a QB because we can't get over the 8-8/9-7 hump...Cool...Let's do that too...
QB's don't grow on trees...Brady Quinn has blown every single one of your BRAINS...It don't work like that on a CONSISTENT basis...
We have an opportunity...And when u have that opportunity U TAKE IT if u can...Or u suffer in the lapse of mediocrity...
Holmgren...Heckert...Do EVERYTHING U CAN to secure the likes of Luck...Or Griffin IF u believe these guys r FRANCHISE QUALITY QB'S...It's the right thing to do...And the SMART thing to do...
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Legend
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You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?
That makes sense.
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You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?
That makes sense.
RG3= Troy Smith and Akili Smith rolled into 1. Or Braxton Miller in two years.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Legend
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He's a rich man's Dan LeFevour.
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He's a rich man's Dan LeFevour.
Yes..which some of our expert draft gurus had held very highly much the same. 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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But Dan LeFevour was a STUD at CMU! I mean he dominated! He was mobile...which we need behind our crappy OLine! And the cout de grace....he is so EXCITING! (If I had a dollar for every time I heard that about RG3...as if nobody cares whether we actually win or not as long as we're "exciting" to watch  )
Last edited by GraffZ06; 01/02/12 06:05 PM.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Legend
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Quote:
You are in favor of drafting RGIII, one of the riskiest players in the draft, but you are not in favor of trading for Luck, who is one of the safest players in the draft AND one of the best QB prospects of all time?
That makes sense.
that's the thing.. no QB is a safe pick... NOT ONE!!! stop saying that.
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Legend
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Peyton Manning and John Elway were safe picks. These are the type of players that are being compared to Luck.
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Legend
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I think that there are 2 elite level QBs in this draft.
We pick 4th.
We have an extra 1st rounder if needed to move up.
We should, and I would say must come out of this draft with either Luck or RG3. If not we will go through another year of futility, and last minute "miraculous" drives to add a score to a long lost game.
If we get to 6-10, 7-9, 8-8 .... we won't pick this high again. We have an opportunity to pick a potentially elite guy right now. It's time to make that move and hopefully settle the most important position on the field for the next decade or so.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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You and I don't agree on much. But I agree with this. I don't want RGIII (I don't think he will be there when we pick anyway). But if we have a chance to get Luck we have to do it.
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that's the thing.. no QB is a safe pick... NOT ONE!!! stop saying that.
To a certain extent you're right, but that can be said about ANY position. Not just QB. But, as much as it sucks, we still need a QB. Sooo...if you need a QB, but no QB is a safe pick (as you said) then at some point you just HAVE to suck it up and take a chance with a non-safe bet.
The question is what chance? The most widely regarded prospect in over a decade. The sure-fire consensus #1 player in EVERY ranking/publication known to man (this is not normal). The guy most NFL ready (due to his college system and coaches) of any QB coming out. In a draft where we actually have the draft position (#4) and an extra #1 pick to make a move like this if we want (also very rare).
Yet you'd rather go with a much BIGGER gamble in RG3 just b/c it will cost us a few extra draft picks??? That makes absolutely no sense to me.
To me it just comes down to whether Indy will deal AT ALL or not.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Legend
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I'd swap firsts with them, give them our second 1st.. and throw in a 3rd and 6th.. but please don't touch next year.. i dont want to revisit 2008 and be all hyped about a 4th round pick (beau bell).. 
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Oh I don't want to decimate next years draft either...but it's going to take SOMETHING next year IMO.
I'd start with our 2 1st's and a late rounder just like you, but I'd add our 1st next year and another late rounder next year if that's what it took. Something like
2012 : Rd 1 x 2 and Rd 3 or 4
2013 : Rd 1 and Rd 4.
That still gives us our 2nd rounder this year and either a 3rd or 4th to hopefully add 2 more starters...plus the $$ we have to spend in FA should get us 1-2 more. So we'd be adding Luck + 3-4 starters this year....and then we'd still have a 2nd and 3rd rounder next year to get a couple more players. If you have the right guy making the picks, you can get contributing starters in those rounds and we'd be just fine (in fact much better IMO) with Luck and these picks than without Luck and our 5 extra picks.
Now if Indy wants 3 (or more) years worth of #1 picks....man I have to think long and hard at 3....it's probably a definite no for anything more than that. And if they want all those #1 picks I'd retract all the mid round picks I was offering.
Again it all just comes down to if Indy will listen to ANY offer (they may not) and if so just what ransom they'll demand. We have the most to offer so we have a good shot but it has to not be crippling.
Regardless, Luck has to be our #1 priority and we have to burn those lines in an attempt to get it done. It may or may not play out...but we HAVE to try.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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i'm to the point where i want one of only two players at 4: rgiii or luck. i might be ok with claiborne if they're gone and the browns don't get a good offer to move down. i don't think we need a more-polished Greg Little in our offense (Blackmon, Jeffrey, Floyd all kind of fit that oversized physical matchup profile... we need speed and shake) i think we need to re-sign hillis as our main RB. i might take kalil, but he's a need for all three teams picking ahead of us.
the sad thing to me, though, is that i don't feel confident that even if we get one of the two qbs that we'll be all that better off. after seeing flynn set records for the team of bart starr, bret favre, and aaron rodgers, i have to think it's the coaching/system that makes them superior. My first thought was "hey mYbe we should get flynn after all." But then i thought "well, when did he become that much better than wallace and mccoy? and why?"
if we continue to have bad coaching, playcalling, and gameplanning, we'll continue to lose. that being said, i'm completely against giving up more than either this year's third or next year's second to move up for anyone. as lomg asshurmur is running the show we're going to need all the players we can get.
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I'd swap firsts with them, give them our second 1st.. and throw in a 3rd and 6th.. but please don't touch next year..
i dont want to revisit 2008 and be all hyped about a 4th round pick (beau bell)..
OK "Drama Quenn II)...
Guarantee we visit this with Indy...Prolly to no avail...BUT...
The STARTING POINT will be our 2 First Rounders and our 2013 #1...U can bout BANK that...
Go Browns!!!
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Legend
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after seeing flynn set records for the team of bart starr, bret favre, and aaron rodgers, i have to think it's the coaching/system that makes them superior.
Here's the problem with the backup scenario:
What happens when a team like the Lions hears that Rodgers is going to have the day off?
They relax.
They figure that they can show up and win, because it's the backup.
They let down.
Add in that Detroit's defense isn't very good to start with, and you have a recipe for disaster ..... and disaster is what Detroit's defense got.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Nah...starting point will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd....that's exactly the gap in value between the 2 picks according to "the chart"...from there Colts will demand next year's 1st on top....and we will counter with next year's 2nd + our 4th this draft...we will give in and our max offer will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd + 4th THIS draft and next draft's 1st...net cost = 2x 1st + 2nd + 4th...including the ATL trade, the net cost = a 1st and 2nd
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Legend
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ok, that might explain the first two touchdowns, but they scored 45.
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Legend
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They also rested Greg Jennings and rb James Stark, t Brian Bulaga and wr Randall Cobb. So it wasn't Matt Flynn and the rest of the packers, other key players sat out as well. Still he hung 480 and 6tds on them.
For detroit, with the way their offense was going at it, it's really difficult to imagine their d was laying down.
#GMSTRONG
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We aint trading up for Luck. We aint Trading up for RG3 and he is going 1 or 2. I saved you a seat on the Tannehill wagon cause I think it will be Flynn or Tannehill on opening day next year.
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Quote:
Nah...starting point will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd....that's exactly the gap in value between the 2 picks according to "the chart"...from there Colts will demand next year's 1st on top....and we will counter with next year's 2nd + our 4th this draft...we will give in and our max offer will be swap of 1st and 4th overall + ATL pick + 2nd + 4th THIS draft and next draft's 1st...net cost = 2x 1st + 2nd + 4th...including the ATL trade, the net cost = a 1st and 2nd
Sounds like a plan  Andrew Luck would be great. Just gotta find someone to play RT, sign Robert Meachem, and re-sign Hillis/another RB.
We might not be much better next year, but it's an investment in our future, and I feel pretty good about that
That would give me a reason to get a new brown Browns jersey that says "Luck" on the back. Then I can change up depending on home/away games with my Haden jersey (or possibly whether we're on offense or defense!)
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Legend
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Don't touch next year because you can't get hyped about not having a 1st round pick is a horrible reason for not trading up.
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Legend
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Quote:
Don't touch next year because you can't get hyped about not having a 1st round pick is a horrible reason for not trading up.
its more of.. dont touch next year b/c we can't afford to.
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Legend
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You don't think finding our QB for the next ten years is worth not having a 1st round pick?
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I agree with Turk. I don't want to give up a lot of draft picks this year to get a guy like Luck, then give up picks for next year and not be able to get him some playmakers.
Now, like I said before, if we get some playmakers this year in FA, then maybe that makes things "easier."
But I'd hate to get Luck, then not be able to give him some tools other than what we've already got.
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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You don't think finding our QB for the next ten years is worth not having a 1st round pick?
Brady Quinn?
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I just want to remind everyone that not two years have passed since the last best prospect since Manning came out and he sucks. I'm not saying you shouldn't draft a QB, but I'm not for giving away multiple 1s for a guy.
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Legend
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Brady Quinn and Sam Bradford are not Andrew Luck.
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If you get Luck, and he's as good as Manning, you won't need draft picks, considering he makes practice squad players look like pro bowlers.
*There was a hint of sarcasm in that post, but also some truth.
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Quote:
I agree with Turk. I don't want to give up a lot of draft picks this year to get a guy like Luck, then give up picks for next year and not be able to get him some playmakers.
Now, like I said before, if we get some playmakers this year in FA, then maybe that makes things "easier."
But I'd hate to get Luck, then not be able to give him some tools other than what we've already got.
OMG...OMG...OMG... 
U guys act like we will never have another draft pick and be locked outta FA forever if we go get Luck...
Cheese & Rice...
I need a BREAK...
Go Browns!!!
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Legend
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okay.. so people BASHED Savage to death for trading away the picks and trying to build through free agency...
Now we get someone who seems to want to build through the draft.. and now we want to get rid of all our picks..
what do u want to do?
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Wow, I agree. I think you do need a break. 
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Legend
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Will be trading ALL of our picks? Has Heckert gotten us starting caliber players already in the draft? Isn't taking Luck considered a draft pick?
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Quote:
Will be trading ALL of our picks? Has Heckert gotten us starting caliber players already in the draft? Isn't taking Luck considered a draft pick?
the picks that matter, that can get u starters will be GONE this year and most of next if we trade up for Luck.
And Luck is ONE guy. Could he help our team... probably.. but how much is the big question I have.
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And Luck is ONE guy. Could he help our team... probably.. but how much is the big question I have.
Add a healthy Peyton Manning to the 2011 Browns as they are currently assembled and we win 9 games. Maybe 10. We probably beat out Cinci for the final wild card spot.
So...yeah. That ONE guy matters a LOT when he's an elite QB.
And don't say "yeah but Luck isn't Manning...you just don't KNOW". If you're waiting until you "know"....it's too late and you aren't getting the guy b/c he's a pro bowler leading someone else's team to the playoffs.
Also, trying to compare Andrew Luck to Brady muscle man Quinn and Sam freaking Bradford is a travesty. Brady Quinn slid all the way to #22 and was likely to fall the 2nd round if not for that idiot Phil Savage. Bradford was a default #1 b/c there was no other good QB that season. I was never a fan of either guy. Luck, on the other hand, would have been the consensus #1 pick LAST year...WILL BE the #1 pick this year....and probably could have made a case to be the #1 pick TWO years ago.
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Legend
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Quote:
Also, trying to compare Andrew Luck to Brady muscle man Quinn and Sam freaking Bradford is a travesty.
I wasn't trying to compare Brady Quinn to Andrew luck as prospects. That reference was in regards to the comment about how trading a future 1 to get the qb position settled was not a significant loss. Quinn was supposed to be the most NFL-ready qb in the draft. It didn't work.
And comparing luck's hype to bradford's is not a travesty. Their hypes were similar. People were comparing bradford's potential to manning and elway. People were wanting holmgren to offer "the whole draft" to the rams for Bradford. Now people know we shouldn't even offer atlanta's 1 for him.
I'm not saying any one guy will bust. I'm saying don't pour multiple 1s into a single guy.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part V
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