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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
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If you are comparing them as prospects only, he also "is" Ryan Leaf... just as much as Peyton Manning
No he isn't.
Ryan Leaf came on his senoir year pretty much out of nowhere and shot up the draft because of it...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Completely disagree. We'll be outside the top 10 at least (6 wins) and possibly even late teens to early 20s (8-9 wins).
You must have been watching a different football team than I was this season. We'll see what happens if we go get Luck and spend a fortune to do it... 
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I guess that depends on your definition of "compete". If you mean for a Super Bowl then yeah. If you mean to go 500 or better, no.
Again, I don't see where we'll be four wins better next season with a green QB who's learning the WCO. I can see that we'd be better in the long run, but 2012 will still suck. 6-7 wins. Max. Likely fewer than that.
[color:"white"]"Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference."
-- Mark Twain [/color]
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I think what makes Luck so attractive to team officials, is that he's smart, mature and NFL ready ... which all that means is that he will be a capable NFL quarterback right off the bat and they may hold on to their job for an extra year.
But that doesn't make him a future Pro Bowler. The League is full of capable NFL QB's, but not many of them can carry a team. I'd say there are currently only 5-6 of them in the League. There is no guarantees on Luck. I'd rather they pass on the sweepstakes and see who falls to their pick.
They can still use a later pick to get a QB. Andy Daulton (IMO, the most impressive rookie) was a 2nd round pick. I agree, until they know for sure if Colt is their future, they should still use a pick on a QB.
Browns fan in Canada.
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You think that Dalton was more impressive than Cam Newton?
Cam Newton ... over 4000 yards passing as a rookie, 60% completion ... 21 TD, 17 INT, and an astonishing 7.84 yards/pass attempt ...... as a rookie.
He also ran for 700 yards and 14 TDs.
He accounted for 35 combined TDs as a rookie. That's unheard of.
I think that Dalton did really well too, and I think that he's going to be a plus quality QB for a long time (unfortunately for us) ..... but Newton showed real Superstar potential, and delivered quite a bit on that potential this year.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I think with better QB play we would have contended for the playoffs this year...(aka WC)
I think THIS YEAR Luck would have played better than Colt did...
He's a smart guy, With the same amount of time to learn the offense Colt had, and..ya know..BETTER TALENT...
So next year, to say Luck will just come in and suck... Just ridiculous(imo)
The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...
Yeah. But it will be a real exciting build-up for Browns fans. Having the 2 picks. Having a high pick. Having so many teams in need of a QB. It will keep the talking heads on the NFL Network going for hours on end.
re: Cam Newton, yes, he's more of a super star than Dalton. One heck of a player. But I would have bet the house, that Cinci weren't making the playoffs. In fact, when they announced that they were going with Dalton as their starter, I figured they wouldn't win much more than 2 games. I guess, that's what I found so impressive about his performance.
Last edited by Craig O; 01/03/12 05:36 PM.
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LOL,, do you stutter? or do you just like to see me write 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dalton was definitely impressive. He threw 20 TD and only 13 INT in his rookie season, and helped their offense improve in scoring and the team in wins, despite replacing a pretty damn good QB, and coming in cold with no training camp.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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i just agreed with it that much
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despite replacing a pretty damn good QB
I thought he replaced Carson Palmer?
#gmstrong
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I think that both Luck and RG3 will have careers that will be far superior to McCoy.
I also think that there are a couple of other guys in this draft who have a shot to be productive QBs. If we do not get either RG3 or Luck, then I would look at a guy like Russell Wilson out of Wisconsin. He's short, but he's got the brain, arm, accuracy, and knows how to find throwing lanes behind a massive OL. He could be a big time sleeper who winds up giving the rest of the league nightmares. I also think that he could step into a starting lineup on day 1 and be productive.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I had no idea what his name was, but when I was watching Wisconsin the other day (was that yesterday?), I found myself very much liking what I was seeing from their QB.
His throws were strong and crisp, the ball got out where it was going in a hurry.
IF we take a QB, I could be ok with him being that choice - and we wouldn't have to sell the farm to get him, either.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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wait, you lambast Colt at every turn, but you want Russell Wilson?
do you know who Russell Wilson plays like? who his build reminds many of? how he is better at making throws on a rollout compared to in the pocket (and may need to in the NFL to find throwing lanes)?
the only difference between college-Colt and Wilson is that Colt had more college success, which is why Wilson will probably go a round or two lower in the draft.
#gmstrong
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The draft needs to HAPPEN... So we can stop talking about what we THINK will happen, and talk about what actually happened...
lol, don't worry, we only have another 3 and a half months of this.
Just think, when this draft goes on the snow will (most likely) be gone and even the Indians will be playing, lol!
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Wilson has an arm that puts McCoy to shame. He CAN make every throw. He is also far, far more accurate than McCoy can dream of being.
They are both mobile QBs who can throw on the run. That's really the end of the comparison.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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First thing I do when FA opens is sign Matt Flynn!!! Then if we don't re-sign Hillis for less than he turned down (3 yrs for $13 mil) we sign Snelling or Tolbert. And maybe a Joe Staley to play RT. Would love to add John Abraham for 2 yr deal.
Draft
1A Justin Blackmon
1B Kendall Wright or Alshon Jeffrey prefer Wright
2 Chase Minnifield
3 LaMichael James
Then with the rest of our picks we pick all D. H & H said they wanted playmakers here is a few to help turn this around.
1 Blackmon
2 Little
Slot Wright
4 Cribbs
5 Norwood
6 MoMass
After watching Blackmon play last night sign me up, I would love to see us draft all of those players. Heckert says he wants play makers....right there is 4 with 4 picks. If we go that route we need to look into Matt Flynn....I was skeptical on him, but think he might be just what the Dr ordered for Shurmer's "O" to click. And getting him a couple playmakers like Blackmon and Wright to go with Little, Cribbs, and Norwood and we got some serious firepower for once
#brownsgoodkarma
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Russell Wilson was more accurate than Colt in college? Not unless you are willing to completely ignore his career before Wisconsin. Even then, Colt had a season with a better completion %. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/13199/type/college/colt-mccoyhttp://espn.go.com/college-football/player/stats/_/id/238093/russell-wilsonBy the numbers, having watched them play, or by scouting reports. No matter which way you go they are very similar players. And, that is not necessarily a bad thing. Colt could improve with an offseason to learn the WCO. He didn't improve as much as we would have liked this season, and most believe we need to get someone else in here, but it is possible. And, even if he doesn't that doesn't mean a similar QB will fail. But, I think it's funny that a very similar QB you are now touting as you were among the first to bail on Colt.
#gmstrong
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I am talking about how he places the ball, not just completion percentage. he does a nice job of leading his receivers, and putting the ball on them.
He can also make the throw that rainbows over the defender into the receivers hands, can throw the fade, hit the back shoulder, and can hit a receiver in stride.
I am also talking about Wilson as a 3rd-4th round possibility. I do think that comparing McCoy to him is pretty far off.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I will add that Wilson may never even play in the NFL if he decides that MLB is the way to go. It would probably be the avenue that would give him a better shot at success given his size.
One thing I would be afraid of is if he decided that he would "try" football for a year, go through a couple of training camps to see what happens, then decides to play baseball. That could result in a wasted pick.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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HTF do you think we "move up or just take" Barkley next year? His asking price is going to be out of this world, we aren't going to have 2 first round picks to deal, and heaven help us we aren't going to have the first pick in the draft.
The same way everyone thinks we should move up to get Luck or RGIII (a gamble at best) this year.
If Colt is really that bad, then we will be drafting top 5-7 again next year and can package up a few future picks to get Barkley if we need to. No reason to gamble with RGIII this year when we have so many other needs.
Barkley won't be the only highly rated Qb coming out next year. The Wilson kid out of Arkansas will be a top 10 pick easily and if Bray leaves Tennessee then we are looking at a draft comparable to the Manning/Rivers/Roethlisberger draft.
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Murray (UGa) will be better than Bray IMO.
#gmstrong
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out.. So you lose the guy and the picks and maybe your job.
Pinning every hope and dream on one guy seems rather risky to me. actually, it seems WAY too risky to me.
Tell that to the New England Patriots.
Tell that to the Indianapolis Colts.
Tell that to the Pittsburgh Steelers.
Tell that to the New Orleans Saints.
Tell that to the Detroit Lions.
Tell that to the Houston Texans (watch them without Schaub)
Tell that to the San Francisco 49ers in the 80s with Montana.
Shoot, tell that to the Chicago Bears.
Every one of those teams is in the playoffs and competing for the super bowl with *one guy" and aren't even sniffing the playoffs without that "one guy". Do you think they'd rather get rid of that guy for a couple extra starters just because they're worried about him getting hurt?
This is what I mean when I say I don't think people grasp the importance of having not a "good" or "average" or "serviceable" QB in the NFL, but rather an elite level talent. Yes you still need a defense, a running game, a good coach etc....but none of it matters UNTIL you have that QB. With him, it makes the team run like a well oiled machine. Without him and even with the other pieces you're going to struggle.
We don't currently have one. We may have the unique opportunity to acquire one in this draft...yet people still aren't "sure" because he might get injured??  Everybody gets injured at some point in the NFL....even with "the guy", we will struggle during those years if it happens, but it's more than worth it for all the other seasons where he isn't hurt and you're in the playoffs.
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If all you had to do was use the pick you have (say if Luck drops to you at 4)then all you risk is that pick.. that's it. But using a couple of 1's this year and another one next year and probably some others to boot, you could kill your teams chances to improve for years to come.
As has been stated and shown by multiple people now...no it doesn't. We'll still have SOME draft picks in the top 3-4 rounds each of the next 3 years AND we have $$ to spend in free agency each year. It doesn't "kill" anything other than finally solving our QB deficiency.
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Haven't we already proven that with the whole brady quinn thing..
OMG. Here we go again with trying to compare Andrew Luck with Brady freaking Quinn. Brady Quinn was TERRIBLE. He was god awful at Notre Dame. He was god awful the minute he stepped in Berea. I threw a book at the tv the instant that idiot Phil Savage traded up to get him. It's distinctly possible that he would have slid all the way to the 2nd round had we not been dumb enough to pick him. There was a reason for that. Trying to say "see it didn't work with a terrible QB so we shouldn't do it for a franchise QB" is beyond idiotic.
If Andrew Luck were no better than Brady Quinn I'd be 110% against giving up ANYTHING to go get him too. Big problem though...he IS.
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we are behiind because of those two drafts more than any previous or since..
I'd argue we're behind because we change coaches and front offices every 2-3 years which require entire scheme and roster purges. That and the fact that we've NEVER gotten a franchise QB. Of course, if we HAD gotten a franchise QB there's a good chance the coach/FO turnover stops too....two birds with one stone.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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The problem with pinning your career on one guy is injuries. All it takes is one good james harrison hit and the lights go out..
Who actually said this???...I have a good guess...But who???
Cause the DOLT that said that ...I can't even go further...Unreal stupidity......
Go Browns!!!
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We might as well NEVER draft anyone EVER again...
...I mean they COULD get hurt!
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Which is why I have a sneaking suspicion that the same people who are clamoring of us to trade down are the same people worried about our draft pick getting injured.
You see, that way we can have 49 4th round draft picks. They all suck, but man when one gets injured we can just plug in the next guy and keep on trucking....I mean sucking.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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And I'd say you're crazy. I give up WAY more than that if I'm getting Joe Montana or John Elway or Peyton Manning or Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. If Luck is truly a top 5 talent NFL QB like those guys then he's more than worth it.
Build the time machine, go forward into time 5 years and let me know how Luck has done as a Cleveland Browns QB Otherwise, I think you're the one that's crazy.
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And like I stated in another thread I'd offer our 2 1st's this year + a mid rounder (4th ish) to start but that won't get it done. I'd add in our 1st next year (3 1sts total) and another mid rounder next (3rd or 4th). If they wanted a 3rd #1 I'd remove this year's mid-rounder and move next year's mid rounder to later (5th or 6th round). If they wanted a FOURTH #1 pick...that's where I might have to think about drawing the line.
I still think you're offering too much if you're giving up more than this years two #1s. In fact, I think you're offering too much even at that, but I can understand the thinking on it if you truly believe that Luck is your franchise QB for at least the length of his initial NFL contract. Three #1s is definitely too much but I'd set our upper limit at the #4 overall and our 2nd rounder this year. I wouldn't even give up a first this year (#4 overall) and next years first rounder.
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So here's my "max" scenarios:
1) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2012 Rd 4, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 3
2) 2012 Rd 1A, 2012 Rd 1B, 2013 Rd 1, 2013 Rd 6, 2014 Rd 1
I think both of those are insane amounts to give for any player. I don't care if it's Peyton Manning. I'd let you have Peyton Manning and draft Donovan McNabb the following year or wait three years and draft Drew Brees.
No, I wouldn't give up those valuable picks. I'd play the odds and look to get a quality players with those picks instead of giving Indy the Hershel Walker scenario or Ricky Williams trade.
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Both scenarios, while definitely expensive, still give us the ability to add some starting level talent with draft picks in the top 4 rounds in each of the next 3 drafts.
The problem is, my gut tells me Indy looks at both of those offers and still says "no" because they know how good Luck is too.
We should be looking to steady improvement and I think you're not going to be able to accomplish that giving away your first round picks.
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And then we're back to hoping Blackmon falls to us and that Colt doesn't get him killed.... 
It's not Colt getting them killed. All receivers take these shots. If they don't want to get laid out, maybe they should get some separation from the defenders. They didn't and paid the price for it.
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We might as well NEVER draft anyone EVER again...
...I mean they COULD get hurt!
Taken out of context, you're correct.
Taken IN context - it's foolish to throw out 2 first this year, next years first and a second this year - for one player.
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And then we're back to hoping Blackmon falls to us and that Colt doesn't get him killed....
It's not Colt getting them killed. All receivers take these shots. If they don't want to get laid out, maybe they should get some separation from the defenders. They didn't and paid the price for it.
This is where I'm going to SEVERLY disagree with you...
There has been a CONSISTENT theme of Colt throwing his WRs TOWARDS contact from defenders...
Getting hit is part of the game...Yes...
But blaming the WRs is just asinine...
Last edited by OSGuy; 01/03/12 10:55 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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McCoy's been hurt 2 years in a row for an extended period of time.
It's foolish to think about pinning our hopes on him .......
It works both ways.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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I'm pretty certain I didn't say anything about McCoy.
I'm pretty certain I didn't say we should pin our hopes on McCoy.
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No, you seconded the concern about a player who hasn't been hurt possibly getting hurt.
I brought up concern over a guy who was hurt his senior year of college, and has been hurt in both of his 1st 2 professional seasons, and how I don't think that we should pin our hopes on him for that very reason.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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And then we're back to hoping Blackmon falls to us and that Colt doesn't get him killed....
It's not Colt getting them killed. All receivers take these shots. If they don't want to get laid out, maybe they should get some separation from the defenders. They didn't and paid the price for it.
This is where I'm going to SEVERLY disagree with you...
There has been a CONSISTENT theme of Colt throwing his WRs TOWARDS contact from defenders...
Getting hit is part of the game...Yes...
But blaming the WRs is just asinine...
If they catch the balls that are right on their hands, I'm not blaming them. Truth is, they dropped the ball the most and not because they were about to get hit.
How many hits did McCoy take?
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Actually, he seconded an opinion against completely emptying the piggy bank to pick up one player.. because IF he gets hurt, you have NOTHING.
You will have spent half your draft to get one player and have nothing to show for it except still having a TON of holes all over the rest of the team that could have been filled with a trade down.
That said, you should never worry about this sort of injury possibility when drafting. The concern should be what makes your team competitive for the long haul.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 16,195 |
Quote:
That said, you should never worry about this sort of injury possibility when drafting. The concern should be what makes your team competitive for the long haul.
Unless you're drafting Hardesty.
#GMSTRONG
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,949 Likes: 763
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,949 Likes: 763 |
Nah.... that's unfair.
It's not like he has continually re-injured the leg he injured in college.
It's a Courtney Brown situation where things just keep going wrong for him.
Where his REAL problem is, is that when healthy he hasn't done anything worth noting.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,413 Likes: 446
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,413 Likes: 446 |
Quote:
Actually, he seconded an opinion against completely emptying the piggy bank to pick up one player.. because IF he gets hurt, you have NOTHING.
You will have spent half your draft to get one player and have nothing to show for it except still having a TON of holes all over the rest of the team that could have been filled with a trade down.
100% agreed. I'm not concerned about injury as that can happen to/with any player - draftee, or 10 yr. all pro vet.
My concern is tossing away the draft this year and next year, basically, to get 1 player. (any player) All the hype is just that - hype. Nothing proven on ANY player. And yes, I understand some have more upside than others, I get it.
It's like a kid at Christmas. All to often they open that shiny new toy they've wanted and wanted - only to find out it's not that great when they get it..............and if that kid tells mom and dad he's fine with foregoing the rest of this Christmas, and next years Christmas presents in order to get that one shiny new "must have" toy and finds out he doesn't like it - well, tough, right?
Look, the Browns have holes all over. We need our draft picks. If we can get a qb without killing our draft and the next one - great! I'm all for it.
If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.
Then what?
And, I understand a qb can make an o better - I totally get that. But is 6-10 "better"? Is 8-8 better? There's just as much a chance of that as there is being 10-6 or better........meanwhile, if we sold ourselves out to get one of those 2, we're stuck for a few years. (and this is Cleveland after all - if we aren't in the playoffs in 2 years - assuming we got Luck or RG - people will be clamoring for the next qb).
Get either one of them for a decent trade of picks - fantastic. But 3 first rounders and a second or 2? I don't agree with that.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,984 Likes: 361 |
What kind of record would the Steelers have this year without Roethlisberger?
4-12? Maybe 5-11? Their OL was beyond flat out awful. When Roethlisberger sat, the offense stalled.
What would the Colts have looked like without Mann ......
Oh never mind.
How about a playoff contender like Da Bears? Surely they could survive the loss of their QB .......
Maybe a rookie QB could improve a team like Carolina or Cincinnati? That might happen.
There are examples piled on top of examples of teams who get the QB right improving dramatically, and those who lose that QB falling off the map till they make it back. The huge exception this year is the Texans, who had their division close to being wrapped up, then hung in to win it. For all of the good their backup QBs did, the Texans lost their last 3 games. They went from scoring under 22 points only twice in 10 games with Schaub at the helm to never scoring over 22 the rest of the season. Yates did a remarkable job, but it would not surprise me to see the Texans shown the door this weekend. I don't know who will even be starting for them, but when your future is a choice between Delhomme and Yates ... Yikes.
The Lions, last year, were a so-so team. Their defense is nothing special. They got their QB back and all of a sudden they can beat the crap out of teams with their offense. Last year they scored 362 points. This year they scored 474. Their defense actually gave up more points this year than last. They haven't exactly loaded up on offensive talent since the draft to surround him with a comfort zone. They had a roster before they got Stafford into the lineup. Now they have a playoff team.
I want a guy who potentially makes our team a legitimate Super Bowl contender, no matter what he costs. If he gets hurt, then we deal with an injury for that year, and come back the next year knowing that we have this vital piece already in place.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,445 |
Quote:
If we can get Luck or RG - for a decent trade of picks - fantastic! But if we do, they'll still be behind basically the same line, with basically the same receivers trying to catch the ball, with the same lack of a running game.
This is where u r out in left field...
U r saying we CAN'T upgrade RT...Which we COULD in 3 or 4...Even round 2...THIS YEAR...
We may just resign Hillis...
A WR can be had also via Draft or FA...
It CAN be done...
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
just to keep you honest here:
the Steelers are 4-1 the past 2 years when Big Ben has missed games.
the Patriots went 10-6 with Cassel when Brady missed the season.
the Texans are on their 4th QB - not sure how many teams can survive that type of attrition at any position.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Atlanta and Draft Order Part V
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