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daman...concerning Pete Carmichael Jr, the OC with the Saints...the only position the Browns might be able to offer him would be Assistant Headcoach/Offensive coordinator.
Carmichael Jr has spent 5 yrs under Sean Payton, joining the Saints as their QB/Passing Game coach in 2006, when Payton took over as the Saints HC... Carmichael Jr took over as OC in 2009.
While his name might be mentioned in connection with some NFL headcoaching positions...the next logical move for Carmichael Jr would be HC at the college level.
Why college and not the pros? Why is college more logical
daman...In Carmichael's case, he is 40 yrs old and one look at his resume reveals a coach with limited experience at the college level and in the pros...and he has never been a HC at any level.
One would think Browns fans would understand the importance experience can play in the success/failure of first time HCs, given the Browns experiences since return in 99. Palmer, Davis, Crennel and Shurmur...all became first time HCs in the Pros...3 of the 4 failed as first time HCs for the Browns and Shurmur just finished his first year as a first time HC.
In Shurmur's case, the Browns have another HC who had no previous experience as a HC...and it showed this year. Shurmur certainly could have benefited from HC experience at the college level, before becoming a HC at the Pro level, IMO. Shurmur does have the advantage of having experienced people (some who have been HCs at the Pro level) in the organization who can help to mentor him.
In the end, it's up to those running each franchise to review resumes and make a judgement when considering whether to hire coaching prospect as a first time HC.
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daman...In Carmichael's case, he is 40 yrs old and one look at his resume reveals a coach with limited experience at the college level and in the pros...and he has never been a HC at any level.
Well, if that's how you want to view it, but then that means that Bill Belicheck shouldn't be a head coach, Billick shoudn't have been either, same with Marty Shottenhiemer or Don Shula or Chuck Noll or....I could go on and on.. But you get my drift..
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jc..
Now that the Packers are out of the playoffs, we might hear some news on the Browns search for an OC...
...specifically, will Tom Clements, the Packers QB coach, be offered the OC job with the Browns?
Last edited by mac; 01/16/12 08:57 AM.
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You can almost see it coming. "No candidates fit the bill at this time, I remain OC".
OR, and this is a giant OR, the guy they want is still in the playoffs.
...OR they're waiting to see if Manning gets paid by Indy and if they release him, they'll offer him the OC job with the Browns. 
the ironic thing is, i think manning would make an excellent offensive coordinator somewhere. not here, tho
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I think Clements +Flynn is a strong possibility. Just like Mike Sherman + Ryan Tannehill is a strong possibility.
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jc..
Now that the Packers are out of the playoffs, we might hear some news on the Browns search for an OC...
...specifically, will Tom Clements, the Packers QB coach, be offered the OC job with the Browns?
The more I think about it, the more my head hurts...
But, you may be right about Clements.. If you look at his bio, he's entrenched in the WCO or some form of it. He's familiar with developing young QB's having done that with Rodgers AND Flynn.
Which I guess brings up another thought... Clements for OC, Flynn as the starter?
Could that be the plan?
If it is, will that make the fans at least ease up on the FO a little? How about the media?
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Clements is also interviewing for the Tampa HC job. So I wouldn't count your OC's too early...... 
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Clements is also interviewing for the Tampa HC job. So I wouldn't count your OC's too early......
Until all the HC jobs are filled, I wouldn't expect to see us hire anybody, unless we have our eye on some young new guy we plan to bring in to give OJT.
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Clements is also interviewing for the Tampa HC job. So I wouldn't count your OC's too early......
I just read that also.
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Clements is also interviewing for the Tampa HC job. So I wouldn't count your OC's too early......
I just read that also.
not to mention that if he doesn't get the TB HC job, then he may want to wait a bit and see how Philbin is doing. I could see Philbin taking a year off of football (pure speculation by me - but it's one thing I would consider), and, if he does, then Clements would inherit the GB OC job.
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Clements is also interviewing for the Tampa HC job. So I wouldn't count your OC's too early......
I just read that also.
not to mention that if he doesn't get the TB HC job, then he may want to wait a bit and see how Philbin is doing. I could see Philbin taking a year off of football (pure speculation by me - but it's one thing I would consider), and, if he does, then Clements would inherit the GB OC job.
The other question might be, what if we agree to go after Flynn in FA., does anyone think that may influence Clements. And I'd have to believe that having Clements as the OC would help in landing Flynn,,,
wonder if right about now, Clements is talking to Flynn saying I'm going to Cleveland as the OC,, I'd love to have you there?
I mean assuming he doesn't get a HC job in Tampa that is. Keep in mind, jumping from QB coach to HC is a pretty good size leap... Not that it can't be done. But whew.. big jump in responsibilities.
Last edited by Damanshot; 01/17/12 12:38 PM.
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if someone gives you a shot at HC, then you take it. only 32 of those going around.
i agree that getting Clements pushes us even further into the lead in the Flynn sweepstakes. not to mention, just interviewing him could be huge to get an intel dump on Flynn (we'll be questioning him a ton on Flynn I would assume - under the guise of seeing how well he knows his QBs, etc.).
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if someone gives you a shot at HC, then you take it. only 32 of those going around.
Oh Hell yeah you take it., no question about it.
I was just saying that jumping from QB coach to HC is a leap.. I question if it will even get offered. but yeah, if it's offered, he's gotta take it..
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Ok, gotcha. Read it the other way. TB also might be considering that leap more than most teams would because they gave Raheem Morris that big promotion and are now replacing him (which is why they have been linked to so many HCs with prior experience).
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Clements for OC, Flynn as the starter?
Could that be the plan?
If it is, will that make the fans at least ease up on the FO a little? How about the media?
If they win? You betcha . . . 
But Mary Kay won't ease up til Holmgren's down on the sideline . . .
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I really think that Shurmur would have to give up play calling to get a "name" OC candidate.
Why would the Packers, for example, let their QB coach make a move to be the OC without the play calling duties? It would be almost a lateral move. (and they don't "have to" allow assistants to interview for assistant positions anyway, IIRC)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Keep in mind, jumping from QB coach to HC is a pretty good size leap... Not that it can't be done. But whew.. big jump in responsibilities.
I believe Chris Palmer was QB Coach before becoming our HC. Others such as Tomlin and Payton I believe were just position coaches but I could be wrong and agree it is a huge jump.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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if Clements views it as a step-up, then I don't think GB would get in his way. that's bad policy. also, Holmgren is still friendly with those guys. that does help.
but, I don't think Clements comes here and doesn't call plays. I think we would allow him to (and Shurmur would save face if we brought in Flynn because obviously TC would know Flynn's strengths/weaknesses best)
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I don't think that he would want to leave for a lateral move. Why would he?
He is part of a machine in Green Bay. Here he would be a similarly "sized" part, but on a far lesser machine. There's no upside for him unless he calls the plays and turns this offense around. As far as I can see, that's the only way a move like that makes sense.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Keep in mind, jumping from QB coach to HC is a pretty good size leap... Not that it can't be done. But whew.. big jump in responsibilities.
I believe Chris Palmer was QB Coach before becoming our HC. Others such as Tomlin and Payton I believe were just position coaches but I could be wrong and agree it is a huge jump.
You are incorrect, he was the OC for the Jags prior to becoming the Browns HC. you could be right about Tomlin and payton,,I'll check.
Payton was the Asst HC and QB Coach for Dallas, a little more important than a QB coach only.
Tomlin was the DC for the Vikings prior to becoming the HC of the Steelers
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like I said, I don't think he comes without playcalling duties. but: he would have the title of OC and if he helped turn around our offense, then it would mean alot more to owners/coaches than continuing to be apart of the GB-machine. so, he may have high aspirations of being a HC. what better way than taking on this challenge 
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I don't think that he would want to leave for a lateral move. Why would he?
He is part of a machine in Green Bay. Here he would be a similarly "sized" part, but on a far lesser machine. There's no upside for him unless he calls the plays and turns this offense around. As far as I can see, that's the only way a move like that makes sense.
going from QB Coach to OC is a step up right?
As for calling plays, I'm not sure that Clements has had that responsibility before so when you think about it, it really could be a perfect fit.. let Clements come in, Get his feet wet runnning the whole offense, and ease him into playcalling...
At least that's one way to look at it,, not sure if he'd see it that way.
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Sorry, I misread that.  I don't think that he needs to have Flynn for Shurmur to give up play calling. he has already set the stage for that possibility by saying that if he has to do so to get the best possible OC, then that's what he'll do.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Keep in mind, jumping from QB coach to HC is a pretty good size leap... Not that it can't be done. But whew.. big jump in responsibilities.
I believe Chris Palmer was QB Coach before becoming our HC. Others such as Tomlin and Payton I believe were just position coaches but I could be wrong and agree it is a huge jump.
You are incorrect, he was the OC for the Jags prior to becoming the Browns HC. you could be right about Tomlin and payton,,I'll check.
Payton was the Asst HC and QB Coach for Dallas, a little more important than a QB coach only.
Tomlin was the DC for the Vikings prior to becoming the HC of the Steelers
Well I was wrong..for some reason I thought he was only QB coach and Tomlin was only a DB coach..This darn memory is getting bad. I just called my daughter and halfway through the conversation I asked if that's why she called. She said "Dad, You called me."  Maybe I waas thinking of Raheem Morris being a position coach..not sure.
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I don't think that he would want to leave for a lateral move. Why would he?
I don't know if this answers anything but the first thing to be realized is that there are only 32 OC positions available. It's hard to pass one up if it comes to you. Calling plays or not. Especially for a young guy looking to move up into a full-fledged OC job in the future.
Plus, it's no where near a lateral move from QB coach to OC. The OC is responsible and in charge of organizing all the offensive assistant coaches. That's the line coach, WR's coach, RB's coach, QB coach and whatever other offensive assistants the team carries. And that's without even getting into the subject of calling plays.
He's also responsible for designing the offensive game plan for the upcoming opponent for the HC to approve or fiddle with before approval.
Even if he doesn't call the plays, the OC from QB coach, has made a huge jump in responsibilities. If he shows he can handle that well he may also gain the playcalling responsibilities or even a shot at OC for another team in which he will call plays.
It's definitely a step up and a stepping stone on the journey for an aspiring OC.
That's why he would if he had a mind to. Not to mention a substantial pay raise.
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LOL The older I get the more I forget... Raheem Morris was an odd situation. Really odd so I don't blame you if you got this one wrong: Quote:
In December 2008, it was announced that Morris would take over as defensive coordinator for the Buccaneers for the 2009 season after Monte Kiffin announced that he would be leaving the team to join his son, Lane Kiffin, at Tennessee.[2] Just a month later on January 16, 2009, head coach Jon Gruden was fired by the Buccaneers and Morris was named the team's head coach.[1] Morris had also interviewed for head coach with the Denver Broncos before being hired by Tampa Bay.[3]
But, offically, he WAS the DC before becoming the HC..
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Perhaps, but if I am an assistant coach, I want control if I am taking a "stepping stone" kind of job .... especially if I have interviewed for head coach positions. I don't want to go to a bad team where I have very little control over the offense that I am ultimately going to be seen as responsible for.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Perhaps, but if I am an assistant coach, I want control if I am taking a "stepping stone" kind of job .... especially if I have interviewed for head coach positions. I don't want to go to a bad team where I have very little control over the offense that I am ultimately going to be seen as responsible for.
Interviewing for and getting HC position is two different things..
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Perhaps, but if I am an assistant coach, I want control if I am taking a "stepping stone" kind of job .... especially if I have interviewed for head coach positions. I don't want to go to a bad team where I have very little control over the offense that I am ultimately going to be seen as responsible for.
No kidding.
Let some other guy call the plays so he gets credit if things work and you end up the scapegoat if they don't.
Sounds like a ideal situation, for Unshurmer.
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However, where he is at now almost guarantees more potential interviews, or access to OC jobs with full responsibility as they come open. If he goes to Cleveland, for example, to a job where he has no play calling responsibility, and the coach gets fired and the offense stinks, then his reputation is shot as well. (and maybe unfairly)
I would want play calling responsibility if I were a high powered QB coach who is in big time demand. JMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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I'd also want to install MY offense and not take on Shurmers version of the WCO.
My attitude would be either you want me to take the O or you don't.
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That all sounds gallant. But there are other OC's out there who do not call the plays. It isn't like this is unpresidented. It is a stepping stone kind of job to be the OC and not call the plays. If you show you can organize and oversee the offensive coaching and design good game plans then you're just a step away from running the whole she-bang and calling plays too.
Andy Reid has just recently, in the past couple of years, given up play calling duties to his OC, Mornhinweg. Mornihnweg was a head coach previously yet took a non-play calling OC job with the Eagles.
There's only 32 of those jobs out there. Kinda tough to be too picky if that's what you aspire to do.
Also, there are so many variations of the WCO that I doubt very much if Shurmur has only one version in mind with he and Holmgren being steadfast in their requirements.
Shurmur mentioned he was looking for someone "who speaks our language". I took that as someone well versed in the WCO. Not particularly in only one way. That's narrowing your search down drastically.
Holmgren has been on record of disliking the WCO even being called that. He said the versions being run today and the variations he ran as HC/OC were very different than the old 49'ers offense that inspired the name.
Who knows how all this will shake out. But I'm pretty sure the offensive duties will be split up in some dimension for next season.
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Who knows? I know what I would do if it were me. If I'm taking responsibility for an offense, then I want to be the "final" (even though I realize that the head coach can overrule any given play, and might rarely do so) voice on plays called throughout the game.
That's just me. As far as I'm concerned, being the OC without calling plays is just another glorified position coach.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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As far as I'm concerned, being the OC without calling plays is just another glorified position coach.
Except that it's your job to organize all the other offensive coaches and design game plans. Don't you think that's a bit more than a "glorified" position coach. I mean, after all, he's basicly in charge of all the offensive positions and then some.
Also, you say "if it was me". I sometimes think and say that too. But the truth is neither of us is aspiring to be something as demanding as an NFL coach of which there are so little opportunities and it takes a great deal of luck to land a job.
Look at all the NFL coaches who spent years as unpaid assistants for college teams. Coaches like Mangini who started out running for pizza and doing odd errands just to be close enough to get a chance. You or me might say "if it were me I wouldn't do that" and maybe we wouldn't. But these guys are driven unlike you or I have ever been about anything. To fight and scratch your way to an elite position on an NFL team takes no small amount of courage, strength and dedication to do even things you don't want to do in order to someday get your big chance.
I still maintain that with only 32 OC jobs and only a few of them available there are probably a hundred who would jump through hoops for one of those shots. Probably only 10 of them who anyone would even consider giving that hoop to jump through and only a small handfull of those who might actually land a job.
I think historically these guys take the odds given them and go for it expecting to work their way up rather than demand it be offered them.
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jc..
Joe Philbin, the present Packers OC is being considered for at least one HC position (with the Bucs)...if Philbin moves on, Clements might have a good shot at moving up to OC with the Packers.
Then again, I found this nugget of information from Clements wiki file web page
"In Week 17 of the 2011 season, after the Packers went 14-1, head coach Mike McCarthy chose to deactivate Rodgers to keep him healthy for the playoffs and start backup quarterback, Matt Flynn, on January 1, 2012 at Lambeau Field vs. the Detroit Lions, Flynn's second start in his career. Throughout the game, Clements worked with Flynn on the sidelines, showing him what to look for in the photos from the previous offensive series. Flynn had a record setting performance, throwing for 480 yards and 6 touchdowns, both single game records for the Green Bay Packers."
I don't know how close Flynn and Clements are, but it does appear they have worked well together in the recent past.
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I'd also want to install MY offense and not take on Shurmers version of the WCO.
My attitude would be either you want me to take the O or you don't.
Then you would be the wrong guy for the job.
If they have a plan and they need an OC to implement the plan, then that's what they should do.
The wrong thing would be to hire someone that doesn't believe in thier plan.
That would flat out be a bad hire.
i'm not commenting on any particular plan here.. But if your the Pres, GM and HC and you are all on the same page, heading down the same path, you want a guy that sees it your way.. Accept input,, sure., Suggestions, you bet, but overall, you want someone that will believe in and implement your plan.
And as for a guy that would want to call plays, Shurmur and later Holmgren said that if that's what it takes, that would work.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Dawg Talker
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I wonder if Marc Trestman is being considered. He's got experience being an OC and although I don't think he typically runs a West Coast(not sure tho), He has experience in it under Bill Walsh I'm pretty sure. Personally I don't see why he wouldn't be a candidate.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
I wonder if Marc Trestman is being considered. He's got experience being an OC and although I don't think he typically runs a West Coast(not sure tho), He has experience in it under Bill Walsh I'm pretty sure. Personally I don't see why he wouldn't be a candidate.
Actually, it was under George Siefert.. And he seems to have quite a bit of experience in the WCO in one form or the other
http://www.allcoachnetwork.com/trestman/bio.html
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if Marc Trestman is being considered. He's got experience being an OC and although I don't think he typically runs a West Coast(not sure tho), He has experience in it under Bill Walsh I'm pretty sure. Personally I don't see why he wouldn't be a candidate.
Actually, it was under George Siefert.. And he seems to have quite a bit of experience in the WCO in one form or the other
http://www.allcoachnetwork.com/trestman/bio.html
Thanks Daman! I would have no problem with Marc Trestman. He's got loads of experience.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Joined: Nov 2008
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Nov 2008
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I hate to nitpick, mac...
That happens in every game. The QB is constantly looking over photos to try to gain an understanding of the defense he's playing against.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns will hire OC.... Possibly
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