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Geoff Hobson, of Bengals.com, reports the Cleveland Browns have signed restricted free agent DT Shaun Smith (Bengals) to an offer sheet worth $8 million over four years, according to two AFC North sources.
O.k Phil went higher than I even thought..he's going to make them OVERPAY if they keep him..
2mill a year..but thats still in my ballpark..
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I wish we had kept McKinnley.
With Simon Fraser at the left end, McKinnley on the right and Big Ted in the middle we had The Chipmunks (Alvin, Simon & Theodore). 
Now we've got bupkis. 
Did Theodore and Simon sign with another label? 
Cal, ya can't break up the band and still go on man.
Zeppelin would not be Zeppelin without Robert Plant.
Van Halen without Diamond David Lee Roth? Just another band.
Tiny Tim without his Ukelele? Not going to hear of it!
The Chipmunks without Alvin? Just something to be exterminated.
Alas, a great thing is lost.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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This signing really makes me scratch my head. The Bengals run D was baaaaaaaaaaaaad last year. They need run-stopping DTs. I read where this guy sounds like a prototypical 3-4 NT so it makes sense that we would go after him...but 8mil over 4 years? Is there really THAT much difference between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 NT? Generally, I would say "Well, sure". But man...the kid goes from being an occassional sub at DT on a bad run D team to making that kind of $$$ ? Hmmm...someone surely knows something I don't...not that that's a surprise or anything. 
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AAALLLVIIIINNNNN!!!! 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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"Hmmm...someone surely knows something I don't...not that that's a surprise or anything."
When you find out,let me know.This seems a little strange to me also.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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This signing really makes me scratch my head.
The Bengals run D was baaaaaaaaaaaaad last year. They need run-stopping DTs.
I read where this guy sounds like a prototypical 3-4 NT so it makes sense that we would go after him...but 8mil over 4 years?
Is there really THAT much difference between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 NT? Generally, I would say "Well, sure". But man...the kid goes from being an occassional sub at DT on a bad run D team to making that kind of $$$ ?
Hmmm...someone surely knows something I don't...not that that's a surprise or anything.
We're going to have to see how it works out on the field, (if the deal goes through, but sounds like it will,) and the price does seem a little high right now, though someone had speculated yesterday it was probably between 1.5-2M/year. Maybe given the new cap that's what we'd be looking at for a young NT... I don't know. Anyway... the Cats were probably looking for a more penetrating type of tackle, one that could get to the QB on passing downs. That is not Smith's forte or the job of a 3-4 NT. From the scouting reports I've read, (mostly in this thread,) he sounds like a great match for our 3-4, and that's one less position we'll need to draft and take a flyer on. It would most likely have been a later round pick, but we did need one, so from that point of view, I think it's a good signing if it comes to fruition. JMHO
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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I agree. I don't know much about this guy, so I am certainly no expert on the matter, but it seems we are paying a pretty high price for this type of a player.
"What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us."
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Is there really THAT much difference between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 NT?
Really, there is a big difference.
4-3 guys have to be able to move and get into the backfield.
A NT really only has to own the gound on which he stands and maybe a foot or two on either side against 2 blockers. If he can draw 2 blockers every play, he is worth everything he makes because one of the ILB's won't have a guard on him.
In theory, he is free to make the stop.
If stamina wasn't an issue, a summo wrestler would be ideal in the middle.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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I was like "who?" when we 1st was reported we would be interested....but then surprisingly I read that lots of Bengals fans want to match the offer (saying they should have put the 2nd round tender to begin with)...I even read that most expect them to match and they want to keep him and can vet starter Thornton (they can´t keep both cap wise) and then I also read that PIT and BAL were also interested...
so, yes I remain sceptical until I see him on the field but he seems to have made himself noteworthy to the AFC North coaches studying film I guess...also, the Bengals kept him around and groomed him for 3 seasons despite being a UDFA
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his scouting report sounds like a good NT, or at least a guy who can be in rotation. a nice hard to move fireplug.
not a big deal for them if they lose him, a nice D lineman that fits our D.
We're trying to throw the ball downfield and he checked the ball down to Trent Richardson and the Indians on the choice.
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Yeah the Cats tendered $850K, it's doubtful they will match the $2M but there are those fans that do want them to... we'll see if their FO let's him go. We probably won't know until Friday. I don't know if you've read any of the scouting reports, but he does sound decent for our needs... things like athletic, good play recognition, run stuffer, able to eat up two blockers, etc... at 325, he's got the size so hopefully he'll work out well. I like that he'd be able to study under Big Ted for awhile.
Also, and it's just speculation, it's possible we made the 4 years $8M contract offer so that the Cats wouldn't match... And the way the salary structure is headed, $2M/year may not be that much for a NT in 2008, 09, 00.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Is there really THAT much difference between a 4-3 DT and a 3-4 NT?
Really, there is a big difference.
4-3 guys have to be able to move and get into the backfield.
A NT really only has to own the gound on which he stands and maybe a foot or two on either side against 2 blockers. If he can draw 2 blockers every play, he is worth everything he makes because one of the ILB's won't have a guard on him.
In theory, he is free to make the stop.
If stamina wasn't an issue, a summo wrestler would be ideal in the middle.
To be quite honest, I'm surprised no one's tried it. Playing nose is all about leverage, and no one knows leverage better than Sumos.
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Be HILARIOUS to see that stomping move right before he lines up. I think our NT should do that anyway.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Be HILARIOUS to see that stomping move right before he lines up. I think our NT should do that anyway.
Dude, it's been a long time since i actually laughed out loud while on a sports board. LOL  lol but that is a priceless visual
Would he throw rice over his should just at the begining of the game or on every down
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j/c
Interesting move by our FO. I don't know a lot about the guy, and I'm not going to go gaga over him for no other reason than that he may soon be on our team.
If anything, this will make the Bengals shell out money they didn't really want to. I have to say, it is nice to see our FO making some calculated moves, even if they aren't all good (I'm still ambivalent about the Jamal Lewis signing, but that's just me).
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I do like this move. Typical Runstopping Nosetackle who almost needs the double team. I expect to see playing time from Smith early in the season splitting plays with Ted. Nice move Phil, planning for the future. 
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Would he throw rice over his should just at the begining of the game or on every down
I believe it's salt, not rice... but they do it before every contest to ask help from the gods in order to win, so obviously they'd need to do it every down. Linebackers just need to stay out of the way so it doesn't get in their eyes. 
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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i always felt that if you took a really good NFL Guard and taught them sumo for a year or two they'd crush those guys. i bet some ala Shawn Andrews would kill sumo guys because of athletic ability. they seem like overweight slobs to me. The good ones seem to be lighter and quicker now.
But yeah with the NT you want a powerful guy. Sheer power. I hope that Smith can learn this spot. we gotta get someone who can do it. Alan Branch def could
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Here is what Espn.com says about Smith.
Just a big, ol' 325-pound anchor who doesn't move all that well but who won't be moved, either. His numbers will never be very impressive, as evidenced by just 44 tackles and no sacks in 34 games, but he will eat up blockers inside and allow linebackers to flow to the football.
Occasionally, he'll even get a little penetration. He can be a solid No. 3 tackle in some team's rotation.That is exactly what the Texans need on the D-line, a big beast of a man who occupies blockers, and allows Ryans, Weaver, and Williams to make plays.
Go Browns!!!
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I wouldn't mind signing 3 huge sumos, paying them little, and rotating them to prevent stamina breakdowns.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I see the part where he won't be moved, but I haven't seen anything except from unsubstantiated comments about him being a runstuffer.
Is this guy a run stuffer? If so, how is that possible given how crappy Cinci was against the run?
Just asking because I don't know.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Yeah that same thing greatly worries me too.
Although I must say that Sam Adams and Ted Washington both did a decent job last year IIRC, but both teams also sucked against the run. Anyone outside of Adams or Washington on the DLine got moved like a paper mache statue. (McKinley, Thornton, Fraser, Rucker, even Smith, for example)
Hopefully, the teams' ineptness doesn't reflect his.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I see the part where he won't be moved, but I haven't seen anything except from unsubstantiated comments about him being a runstuffer.
Is this guy a run stuffer? If so, how is that possible given how crappy Cinci was against the run?
Just asking because I don't know.
I'm guessing the loss of Odell Thurman and David Pollack hurt a lot.
Cinci just lost Simmons too, they're really hurting on D.
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I read somewhere that run production went from something like 3.9ydc to 4.2ypc when Smith wasn't in there... I'm trying to find where I read that but not having much luck.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Where's Orlando Brown these days? Couldn't we put him at Nose Tackle.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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well, at least that's something that can (hopefully) be substantiated.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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I'm still struggling to reconcile this pickup in my head...although I'm very much ok with it.
No question that he fits the description of a 3-4 NT...but man, the Bengals run D looked alot like ours.
A prototypical 3-4 NT should be able to assist in run defense in a 4-3...although he is not what the 4-3 typically wants in its 4-3 DTs...but the guy should be able to still help stop the run by eating up blockers...no? The downfall is a 3-4 NT won't get much pressure on the QB in a 4-3...which is a big part of the 4-3 DT's job. But I'm focused on "run-stuffing" right now and you would think this guy could help a 4-3 D.
On the other hand, a typical 4-3 DT would be of virtually no use in a 3-4 NT role. Too light in general.
So...while there are certainly differences in a 3-4 NT and a 4-3 DT, one would think that a good, immoveable, "run stopping", 3-4 NT type would be able to at least help stuff up the run...which the Bengals couldn't do.
(I'm not trying to teach you something here as you already know this...just making a point. A similar argument goes on in my head regarding Chaun Thompson being a better fit for the 4-3 OLB yet he has alot of the skills you'd want in a 3-4 ILB...if he would just apply them consistently...but that's for another thread.)
So...I'm left thinking that the Bengals agree that this guy could help, but not so much so that they were going to pay him big $$$. Sort of looks like they took a gamble that this guy would go unnoticed. Ooops for them.
This also gets me thinking about Eason, Kelly, and Baba. I beleive Eason can then/now be dedicated to end...where, Lord knows, we need help.
I wonder if Kelly can play end. He seems pretty athletic but a little light for NT. Can he be dedicated to DE?
Big Ted...Smith...Baba?
Could be good.
Makes me go hmmmmmmmm, again.
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I honestly believe they would keep him if they weren't in cap trouble.
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Where's Orlando Brown these days? Couldn't we put him at Nose Tackle.
I don't know, but he put a hell of a first punch on that ref when he hit him in the eye.
"I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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But wouldn't you agree that Sam Adams and TW also did their parts last year, but the rest of the DL sucked at stuffing the run? I think it was the rest of the guys on the Bengals that got blown away from the ball...actually I don't think...I hope.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Yeah...I think those guys did their jobs well. Although I admit that critiquing OL & DL play is not my forte'.
But when they were bleeding to death in run D, why not put Adams and Smith side-by-side and say forget the QB pressure from the DTs? At least they should then be able to stop the run. I don't know.
Weird. Good for us I think/hope. But weird nonetheless.
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A prototypical 3-4 NT should be able to assist in run defense in a 4-3...although he is not what the 4-3 typically wants in its 4-3 DTs...but the guy should be able to still help stop the run by eating up blockers...no?
That's not the job description for a 4-3 DT. A 4-3 DT is expected to penetrate and make plays in the backfield. He's expected to be mobile. His job description isn't to "eat up blockers" .... it's to beat blockers and make plays behind those blockers.
A 3-4 NT is expected to hold his ground and never get blown out of the hole. Think back to Bob Golic. Golic would never be confused with a great 4-3 DT ... but he was an effective NT nonetheless.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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No question that he fits the description of a 3-4 NT...but man, the Bengals run D looked alot like ours.
I understand. In a 4-3, the tackles have to make tackles. This cat is slow and didn't do that. All he does is take on lineman, grunt alot, and doesn't move much.
As a NT, that is what you want. A guy who won't be moved by a center for sure and moves little when the guard doubles him. Perfect for a NT.
Back in the day, Golic didn't pile up many tackles or sacks....because he was a house who just grunted and stood his ground.
It is almost as if this guy plays 'King of the Mountain" every play. He just digs in and doesn't let two people move him.
Ted Washington never made many tackles in his prime. So to Purples point....he isn't a run stuffer if you look for numbers or stats...but if he is doing his job, your middle backers are...one of them is bound to have a free shot at the back.
In a 4-3 D, people didn't have to really move him, they just had to get in the way so he couldn't make a tackle. In a 3-4, they will have to move him. The idea is a guard might be able to play him to a stalemate...a center can't....a good NT can beat a center all day long since they are usually a bit smaller and not in the best position when they snap the ball.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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I don't know YTown. There are a lot of 40 defenses that do ask for the DTs to eat up blockers so the LBers can run to the ball. This is especially true in the running game. They are supposed to maintain contact w/their blocker and then shed them as the ball carrier goes by. You certainly don't want o-linemen reaching the second level and getting to your LBers and secondary guys.
I realize that there are several defensive coordinators that play a hell-bent attack style defense, but that is certainly not the norm. I also think it's stupid as hell. You may get more than your share of big plays, but you will give up more than your share of big plays too.
Gambling on defense is like gambling in real life. Big payoffs, but bigger losses. I personally don't like the odds.
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Looks like we were thinking along the same line.
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A prototypical 3-4 NT should be able to assist in run defense in a 4-3...although he is not what the 4-3 typically wants in its 4-3 DTs...but the guy should be able to still help stop the run by eating up blockers...no?
[quoteThat's not the job description for a 4-3 DT. A 4-3 DT is expected to penetrate and make plays in the backfield. He's expected to be mobile. His job description isn't to "eat up blockers" .... it's to beat blockers and make plays behind those blockers.
I understand that...but still, wouldn't you agree that a prototypical 3-4 NT COULD effectively help stop the run in a 4-3?
I know it's not what the job description is...however, when your run defense is as bad as ours/the Bengals' was, anyone with a bio that mentions "run-stopping" would be someone to keep...regardless of his position or fit.
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A 3-4 NT is expected to hold his ground and never get blown out of the hole. Think back to Bob Golic. Golic would never be confused with a great 4-3 DT ... but he was an effective NT nonetheless.
Wasn't he also effective in the 4-3 though? Not great...but certainly effective? (I don't remember him in a 4-3 so I can't say for a fact.)
That's the point I'm trying to make...I think.
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In a 4-3 D, people didn't have to really move him, they just had to get in the way so he couldn't make a tackle.
I hate being a [censored], but that is simply not true. You guys are exaggerating the difference in how to play tackle in 30 defenses and 40 defenses. There are differences, but it is not as drastic as you are saying it is.
I never ask you to agree w/me on personnel decisions, but I do know my Xs and Os.
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All he does is take on lineman, grunt alot, and doesn't move much.
Grunt alot...oh man, that made me laugh.
Good points...I understand but still have trouble with it.
Sort of like color TV and how airplanes stay in the air.
Explain it to me all you want...I'll get the explanation...then still wonder how in the heck it works.
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I certainly might agree or disagree on personnel decisions, but I'll stay away from the Xs and Os as that's just not me. I'm one of those guys who gets caught up watching the ball...I really have to tell myself to focus on something other than the ball..but I can't do it consistently. For instance, the only thing I know about 30s and 40s is with the 40, you get 10 more ounces of beer...so I'm going with the 40 every time.
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In a 4-3 D, people didn't have to really move him, they just had to get in the way so he couldn't make a tackle.
I hate being a [censored], but that is simply not true. You guys are exaggerating the difference in how to play tackle in 30 defenses and 40 defenses. There are differences, but it is not as drastic as you are saying it is.
I never ask you to agree w/me on personnel decisions, but I do know my Xs and Os.
He's right. We played in a 4-3 in high school and our main job for all 4 linemen was to occupy space.
Then of course the coaches would bitch about us not getting a quick enough pass rush. We'd be giving up our gap responsibility if we went straight after the QB to get an effective rush.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Sign Shaun Smith to Offer
Sheet!!!
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