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You know, that sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems. I'm not sure how you get through your day with all these awful things to think about. You must be a very strong person.
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thanks for picking up the rational side where I left off. I agree with what you posted.
DogDnc, I would like to know how many teams each year hit on 60% of their round 3-7 picks. That is ridiculous especially considering that you expect them to be major contributers in their first year (from how you labelled last year's picks).
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You know, that sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems. I'm not sure how you get through your day with all these awful things to think about. You must be a very strong person.
everybody has crap they deal with. you either do it or it deals with you.
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You know, that sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems. I'm not sure how you get through your day with all these awful things to think about. You must be a very strong person.
everybody has crap they deal with. you either do it or it deals with you.
everybody has crap they deal with. you either do it (intelligently) or it deals with you. think you missed that part.
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His #1 criteria with a QB is how well he does passing the ball. I would be very, very interested to know how the evaluate our QBs as far as passing the ball. I would love to be a fly on the wall. 
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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You know, that sounds terrible. I don’t know how you deal with all of these problems. I'm not sure how you get through your day with all these awful things to think about. You must be a very strong person.
everybody has crap they deal with. you either do it or it deals with you.
everybody has crap they deal with. you either do it (intelligently) or it deals with you. think you missed that part.
I forgot to pat you on the back. I assume intelligence is always the best way to deal with it. Thanks for posting with Intelligence.
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A good interview with Holmgren the day after the presser: (25 minutes long)
http://www.waitingfornextyear.com/2012/0...key-with-audio/
Listening to this, you have to wonder if Holmgren is using this opportunity to plant the seeds for day one of the draft?
What is the value of the Browns #4 spot?...depends on how badly another team wants that #4 pick.
Then again, is Holmgren actually tipping his hand concerning which position the Browns might be looking to draft at #4?
Let the draft games begin... 
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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DogDnc, I would like to know how many teams each year hit on 60% of their round 3-7 picks. That is ridiculous especially considering that you expect them to be major contributers in their first year (from how you labelled last year's picks).
That's the problem. We are in such a dire straight and have so many needs, we cannot draft "projects", possibles..etc. Now saying that, the first 1-4 rounds in our draft have to be winners!! That is were the 60 percent would come in. 4-6 rounds are the value picks. 7th round is what ever you can find.
So making good solid pick up in FA, coupled with picks in our 1-4 rounds HAVE TO hit above 60%... Now you tell me how the Browns can afford not to and compete in our division within the next 2 years??? If you actually think about it, Cincinnati has positioned itself with drafting and pickups in a better position than the Browns. Pitt might have a problem with a aging team and Ozzie darn near does not miss!! So this draft is very important!
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i agree that we are in a bad spot in our division. i agree the draft is important, but you are setting out unrealistic goals. just because we need the talent doesn't mean we are magically going to hit at those rates.
Ozzie doesn't hit at those rates:
2010 & 2011 - too early to tell IMO
2009 2/6 (Oher and Webb)
2008 3/10 (Flacco, Rice, Cousins)
2007 3/7 (Grubbs, Yanda, McClain)
2006 3/10 (Ngata, Chester, Landry)
What is telling from those drafts is that Oher, Flacco, Grubbs and Ngata were his 1st round picks. He doesn't seem to miss on 1st round picks, which is incredibly important.
And, that is why I have hope with Heckert. His 1st round picks look like they will be hits so far (and 2nd round - outside Hardesty).
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I'm wondering about Oher however.. Highly touted LT coming out of school, but in the NFL, didn't he get switched to RT after not being that great a LT?
I just checked and indeed he's listed as the RT with Bryant McKinnie as the LT....
They picked him 23rd overall so I don't suppose that it's all that bad of a pick...
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Yeah, Oher hasn't been as great as they thought he would be, but he's still an above average starting RT. Definitely not a miss.
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Yeah, and adopted by Sandra Bullock. Lucky guy.
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Good interview with Holmgren on Seattle Radio. Holmgren Audio
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Yeah, Oher hasn't been as great as they thought he would be, but he's still an above average starting RT. Definitely not a miss.
Oher I believe was had for a 5th rounder, which is pretty good i would say.
We are falling ever behind in our division and the #1 cause is the slipshod fashion we deal with talent on our roster and let our free agents walk. No other team in our division does that.
Now it is Hillis and maybe dawson. always digging new holes to fill when the rest of our division is talented . Even Mike Brown feel into a pot of Gold getting a #1,#2 for a 36 YO washed up QB.
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Oher was the 23rd pick in the 1st round of the 2009 draft. No, not some 5th rounder.
the #1 reason that we are behind our division rivals is because we have drafted so poorly. the hope is that the last 2 drafts look promising and that Heckert will continue that trend moving forward and we can make up the gap.
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You do realize that Hillis is still here, don't you??
Nah, reality doesn't have much bearing with you. You just enjoy trolling.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Oher was the 23rd pick in the 1st round of the 2009 draft. No, not some 5th rounder.
Now you're just nit-picking 
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Thanks for remembering me screaming Oher's name on draft day when we traded down for some cheap 6th rounders and still had the chance to get him when we drafted Mack 
#gmstrong
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maybe dawson
If Dawson leaves I bet it won't be because we didn't want him. You do know that we can't just lock players in a cell and force them to sign with us, right?
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Thanks for remembering me screaming Oher's name on draft day when we traded down for some cheap 6th rounders and still had the chance to get him when we drafted Mack
Are you saying you'd have rather had Oher over Mack?
Back then I'd have agreed with you. We still had Hank and I thought he was rock solid... Didn't see the need to draft a center...
But time has a funny way of making us look silly. Mack turned out to be pretty darn good.
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Damanshot
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that just sounds so... dirty. 
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Mack is good center , he didn't have a really good year .. But Oher at RT was the pick then and now ..
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Mack is good center , he didn't have a really good year .. But Oher at RT was the pick then and now ..
Except everyone and thier uncle was projecting him to be a LT in the Pros.
I think the general thought was taking a RT that high would have been a mistake..
either way, I got no problem with the Mack pick.. none
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Oher was the 23rd pick in the 1st round of the 2009 draft. No, not some 5th rounder.
the #1 reason that we are behind our division rivals is because we have drafted so poorly. the hope is that the last 2 drafts look promising and that Heckert will continue that trend moving forward and we can make up the gap.
This ^ Pittsburgh lets talent walk away all the time to FA as well as Baltimore. Its our poor drafting that has caused us all our problems not having elite talant that is walking out the door every year to FA.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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People tend to forget that Mack had a first year right guard and left guard next to him this year opposed to Steinbach and whoever else.
Of course he is gonna look worse this year, he needs help on that interior.
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People tend to forget that Mack had a first year right guard and left guard next to him this year opposed to Steinbach and whoever else.
Of course he is gonna look worse this year, he needs help on that interior.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but his first year he had Stieny on one side and Hank on the other.. And hank called the plays that year.
Then he had Stieny and I don't remember who on the other side. this year, he had basically two rookies on either side of him..
I gotta believe that would take it's toll
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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People tend to forget that Mack had a first year right guard and left guard next to him this year opposed to Steinbach and whoever else.
Of course he is gonna look worse this year, he needs help on that interior.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but his first year he had Stieny on one side and Hank on the other.. And hank called the plays that year.
Then he had Stieny and I don't remember who on the other side. this year, he had basically two rookies on either side of him..
I gotta believe that would take it's toll
Pork Chop or Yates?
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Mack's problems early this year had nothing to do with the Gs...in fact HE was the big problem, as he was the "vet" and the high pick, so more can be expected...his problems were ALL mental...he had some horrible brainfarts trying to understand the Offense....he had the same problems the 1st half of his rookie year which make me question his "smarts" (remember when Fraley had to play G and make the calls?)....maybe it's just me but a top 5 pick turned into a C or even that 22 overall...if it's a C...he better be better than a great run blocker, AVG pass blocker and questionable smarts picking up and directing traffic on the OL....the C is the "QB" of the OL and Mack has some serious issues at that....if he was as good as people thin of him, our OL play wold have been much better....Centers are Gs with a brighter brain..but it looks more and more we have a great G playing C by default....
yes, I'd still look to draft a brainy, light footed C that fits our zone scheme (can be found ANYWHERE) in the mid/late rounds (think Kelce for Philly) and move Mack to G, where he would be an ALL Pro and do what he does best...kill the guy in front of him...Mack is a heck of a soldier, not so much as a general...he's misused
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You do understand that Mack IS a very intelligent person, don't you? He did graduate from Cal I believe.
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Mack's problems early this year had nothing to do with the Gs...in fact HE was the big problem,
If that's true, how do you explain that he did pretty darn well and was considered to be a pretty damn good Center when he had experienced but suddently, he's not so good and the only real difference is rookie guards on either side of him.
How do you explain that?
This guy was a scholar Athlete, he's not a dumb jock type at all.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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I've respected and agreed with alot of things you've said over hte years,but not here.
First off,the Browns don't run a zone scheme.it's some sort of a half-assed man on man power scheme.
I'll not question Mack's intelligence,because I simply don't know.His play may have fallen off this year,due to a new O,but hell he was just an avg.center to begin with.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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but hell he was just an avg.center to begin with.
That's just not true.
you had a good run Hank.
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It was in every report about him that he's on his butt too much when pass protecting...he is and was a mauler C/G tweener who some suggested would be a better fit at G....that was BEFORE the draft why he was good before? Well, he was in his 2nd year of a system...he got it down now but it took him half a season, just like in his rookie year...I'm not saying Mack is not good, just that he's "not good enough" for the card we held on draft day....that's not his fault at all....he IS a good C overall (thanks to his great run blocking, in pass pro I'd call him AVG to above AVG), but not great....at the time he was the highest selected C ever...and he is not an elite C...that's my problem....does anybody see a Mangold type player in Mack? Here's the AP All Pro voting....Mack didn't even get 1 vote....even Minny C Sullivan, a late rounder, got 1...Mack is an above AVG to good C, but it's bad value considering where we took him and who we left on the board at much higher value positions (Nicks, Matthews, Oher) http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/16753129Abou the scheme...I was confused what kind of scheme we're running but I saw Mack and sometimes the Gs block space an awful lot when passing...call it what you want, but I clearly saw a difference to the Mangini approach
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but hell he was just an avg.center to begin with.
That's just not true.
Where does stuff like this come from.. he's way above average..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Let's not get carried away. He's good. He's not great.
"People who drink light 'beer' don't like the taste of beer; they just like to pee a lot."
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Folks need to keep in mind, Mack's performance may have dropped off a bit in 2011, but he had what amounts to a true rookie G on his left and a rookie (in experience) on his right.
Mack had a lot going on around him, helping out our young OGs.
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Folks need to keep in mind, Mack's performance may have dropped off a bit in 2011, but he had what amounts to a true rookie G on his left and a rookie (in experience) on his right.
Mack had a lot going on around him, helping out our young OGs.
we got enough holes. mack is Not one of them. he is a solid player.
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 Yeah ok, keep believing that instead of actually watching the games....Mack didn't help out anyone in the 1st half this season...he was 100% occupied with himself out there, being clueless what to do/who to block an every 2nd snap...he needed help himself, far from giving any...he's actually the reason the OL looked like crap since he was probably guessing his line calls...it's one think to get beat, but when unblocked guys get to the QB rather easily it's always on the guy who made the presnap calls...and that's the C's and QB's job Mack is by far the most overrated Browns player around here...not even close
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Yeah ok, keep believing that instead of actually watching the games....Mack didn't help out anyone in the 1st half this season...
DJ...can you explain how you know what Mack was supposed to do on each snap?
Did you break down blocking assignments for every game?...every play?
Did you know what the blocking call was on each play?
Did you know what the play was and what Mack's assignment was on each play?
Did the RG and LG completed their assignments?
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Holmgren & Heckert Presser
01/05/2012 at 11:00
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