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Look at Eli's performance in the 2nd half of games this year .... specifically in the 4th quarter. If he's not elite, then he's one half step below. He is clutch as clutch gets.
Yes he is.. but the reason this is an issue is because he is extremely pedestrian in the first half and that has to count for something right? He has as many 4th quarter TDs as he has in quarters 1-3 combined.
So I will give him his due for being clutch in the 4th quarter but in my own highly unofficial book, he doesn't get to be elite until he starts to play all 60 minutes consistently.
thank you sir for being the voice of reason here.
to others, yes, Eli has taken a big step forward this season. he is much better than past seasons and he definitely makes his WRs better as can be seen from the guys that step in and immediately produce. however, he is still not on the same level of consistency and production of guys like Rodgers, Brees, and Brady.
I would put him somewhere in the 2nd tier of guys with Stafford, Romo, and Schaub (before his injury, he was great), Roeth, and Rivers (though he may have fallen out of this group).
It's not like it's terrible to be in that 2nd group. But, none of them are on par with the elite guys either (obviously, Peyton was in the 1st group too. not sure if he will still be in it or not).
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See, my 2nd tier group is Eli and Big Ben. That's really it.
Rivers, not as good as Eli. Stafford, hasn't proven he can stay healthy. Schaub has had health issues and first year his team is in the playoffs he isn't even playing for them. Romo, he does good things but he also makes boneheaded decisions, especially in crunch time. Not as good as Eli.
You know that Eli has like never missed a game? That and he's ridiculously clutch. You'd never know it based on his facial expressions on the field and stuff, but at the end of the game, Eli is very very good. And he seems to be a great playoff performer too. Those are major attributes.
Last year was a tough year, but his WRs had a major case of the dropsies. A lot of his passes that went for INTs were off his receivers hands and into the other team's.
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Romo actually got rid of those boneheaded decisions this season. He took a big step forward in the 4th quarter of games this year. The problem was, the Dallas defense took about 10steps back in the 4th quarters. Also, the first 3 quarters are important too.
Schaub/Stafford - I understand knocking them for their injuries. That's fair to a point. I was grading them on what they are when healthy. When healthy, they are in the same class and it only takes one good hit to change a players health (Eli is good at getting rid of the ball before getting hit).
Rivers - not sure that Rivers wouldn't be as good or better than Eli if they swapped spots. Maybe not (he is a bit of a crybaby - it could be why SD seems to underperform). He was slightly worse than him this year, but he's been better than him every year before. History has to count to some degree. I'd rate him and Eli about equal.
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He was slightly worse than him this year, but he's been better than him every year before. History has to count to some degree. I'd rate him and Eli about equal.
I watch a lot of Giants games, being from NY, and I think that's why I stand behind Manning. I do think Rivers would have huge issues playing in NYC with the NY media.
I know the Cleveland Media is very difficult. But the NY media presents an all new set of challenges. They're very tough on their teams also. I just dunno if Rivers could handle that.
But I haven't watched much of Tony Romo this year, so may be he picked up his game.
But Eli has had a great year this year. No question about it. Better than all those guys you mentioned, even Big Ben
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Romo has historically been the anti-Eli.. looking good for 3 quarters and then finding a way to lose.. Eli looks average for 3 quarters and then finds a way to win.. if you could have Romo play the first 3 quarters and Eli be your closer.. you'd win a lot of games.  I would definitely put Eli ahead of Romo on a ranking scale and I would put Rivers right with Eli as he has been more consistent throughout his career and I blame the bulk of their post season failures on Norv. Leaving Peyton out of it, I would put Brady at the top since he has done it better and longer than anybody else in the discussion... then a step below is Brees and Rodgers who have had great seasons and both have one ring.. a step below that is Ben who wins ugly a lot but also relies heavily on a great defense.. then Eli and Rivers... then it gets muddy with Romo, Ryan, Hasselbeck, Cutler, Schaub, Flacco, Fitzpatrick, each has their positives and negatives and ton of other contributing factors to their success and failure.. in the bottom tier of vets I'd put Sanchez, Freeman, Grossman, Jackson then the new guys, Stafford, Newton, McCoy, Dalton, Gabbert, Skelton, Ponder, etc.. Oh well, I'm sure I left some out.. but that's how I see it.
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But Eli has had a great year this year. No question about it. Better than all those guys you mentioned, even Big Ben
if we just go by this year, then I don't see how Stafford wouldn't be rated above Eli.
I mean, stats are not everything, but:
Stafford had more yards(5038-4933), a better completion %(63.5-61), way more TDs (41-29) the same amount of INTs (16) and less fumbles (5 w/ 1lost - 8 w/ 4lost) . Eli was sacked less (28-36) and had a larger YPA (8.4-7.6).
And, just watching Stafford, he just seemed like he is going to be the next great QB (if he can stay healthy). Some of it was having Calvin sure, but Eli has much more depth in weapons comparitively.
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Let's take a look at Eli Manning's weapons .....
Ballard: UDFA
Cruz: UDFA
Manningham: 3rd round (95th pick)
Nicks: 1st round (29th pick)
Bradshaw: 7th round (250th pick)
Jacobs: 4th round (110th pick)
They have Hixon on IR. He was a 4th round pick (130th pick) of the Denver Broncos, and really hasn'tr given them a whole lot over the course of his career.
They also have Michael Clayton on IR. He is a former 1st rounder of the Bucs, who has underperformed badly for 2 teams, and who has a total of 2 catches for 19 yards in his 2 years in NY. He has less than 3000 yards and 10 TD catches in an 8 year career.
So Manning's weapons are 1 first round pick, 1 third rounder, 1 fourth round pick, 1 7th round pick, 2 UDFA, and 1 guy who was a 1st round pick elsewhere, along with another who was a 4th round pick elsewhere, both of whom have disappointed their whole careers.
I think that he hae depth in weapons because he helps develop that depth. Victor Cruz, an UDFA out of Massachusetts, a guy with no career anything, starts this year and responds with 1536 yards, 8 TD catches, and a staggering 18.7 YPC.
Our late round guy from last year gave us 3 catches for 31 yards.
Manningham had 39 catches, but for 523 yards and 4 TDs. He's not one of their outside threats anymore, but he's useful. He's a guy they forced into that role, and still got TD production out of ..... somehow.
Then there's the lone 1st round weapon. Nicks has had a very good career thus far. He had some productivity from the day he arrived. He is a really good, 1000 yard receiver. If I could only take one, though, I would take Cruz.
The Giants OL doesn't have a single 1st round pick starting on it. In fact, I don't think that they have a single 1st rounder in the bunch.
They are still productive. The offense works. I believe that it works because of its QB.
I bet that you could replace any of the other pieces on offense and still have a well oiled machine ...... except for the QB.
I even bet that you could put a "middle of the road" type QB in NY and he would not have nmearly the success that Manning and the Giants have had. You could put a Flacco, (above the middle) Freeman, Hasselbeck, Sanchez, Grossman, Smith, McCoy, Jackson, Palmer, and so on into Manning's place, and that offense would never be the same. The QB drives that team. The QB makes the receivers, not the other way around.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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The Eli we see today, is not the same Eli of a couple of years ago.
He has matured as a QB now and is far better than the Eli that won the SB.
Going forward, he is probably better than his more famous brother.
Yes it happens, QB's can get better with time. The same thing happened with Brees.
Completely agree.
I used to just laugh when Eli's name was brought up. The guy was an interception machine who could go through stretches of games and look like a complete joker at the position.
Combine that with his body language and that dumb look on his face half the time and I thought this does not bode well for his long term success.
Now.....
It seems to me that he worked through his issues, especially the INTs. He caught fire in the playoffs and out of that leviathan emerged a different player.
Now he's a team captain. A team leader. And a guy who reminds me of Robert Horry in that he just seems like he doesn't fear failure whatsoever.
In a tight spot, at the end of a game, with everything on the line....I actually would take Eli over Peyton to win that game.
And if you'd have told me that I'd have written that sentence 5 years ago I would have bet whatever you wanted 100 to 1.
Eli Manning is an elite QB and a guy you can trust in the fire of the playoffs and the Super Bowl.
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Eli has taken the path usually taken by great QBs that take a while to develop. He had to learn what he could NOT do more than trying to decide what he could do. He had to rein in his recklessness with the football.
Also, this is a guy with a career 185 TDs to 129 INTs, and he hasn't had more INT than TD since his rookie year. He hasn't been horrible ...... just kind of slightly above average for much of his career, and he has tried to do more than he can actually do with the ball far too often.
As someone else mentioned, his receivers have had far too many passes bounce off their hands for INTs, but in general those things seem to even out in the end.
Right now, he is clutch in the 4th quarter, and he is off to a 43-65 for 607 yards, 6 TD and 1 INT start in the playoffs. I'd say that he is probably playing as well as any QB left in the playoffs. Brady had 6 TDs against the Broncos, but that game was such a slaughter from the word go that it's hard to know how much the Broncos just gave up once they started getting whipped on.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Eli has taken the path usually taken by great QBs that take a while to develop. He had to learn what he could NOT do more than trying to decide what he could do. He had to rein in his recklessness with the football.
And, had he played his first year or 2 for the Browns, you'd have been all over his ass and wanting to trade as many picks as necessary to get some new guy.
Can't you see your hypocrisy?
Never mind - I know you can't.
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I never thought I'd get such arguments for saying that Eli isn't quite on the same level as Brees, Brady and Rodgers.
I agree with some/most of what you said and had said similar things otherwise. I still think that Eli is a step below those 3 guys though. Not sure why that's such a bad thing. Being among 4-5 guys to be considered for the 4th best QB in the NFL.
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And he might be slightly below those guys ...... but it's a pretty small step behind if he is.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Manning attacks down the field. He doesn't throw all 4 - 6 yard passes. His early problem was that he trusted his arm too much early on. He was too aggressive. No, I don't see the similarity, and neither do I see any "hypocrisy" .... unless maybe on your part.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Manning attacks down the field. He doesn't throw all 4 - 6 yard passes. His early problem was that he trusted his arm too much early on. He was too aggressive. No, I don't see the similarity, and neither do I see any "hypocrisy" .... unless maybe on your part.
Well, once you take your "I hate Colt" glasses off - IF you ever do, you'll see the hypocrisy. Sorry man, your hatred isn't my fault. Your hatred isn't my problem. Your hatred of Colt IS making you look foolish though.
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Manning attacks down the field. He doesn't throw all 4 - 6 yard passes. His early problem was that he trusted his arm too much early on. He was too aggressive. No, I don't see the similarity, and neither do I see any "hypocrisy" .... unless maybe on your part.
Well, once you take your "I hate Colt" glasses off - IF you ever do, you'll see the hypocrisy. Sorry man, your hatred isn't my fault. Your hatred isn't my problem. Your hatred of Colt IS making you look foolish though.
I wonder if that is why Bradford was throwing 4-6 yard passes when Shurmer was there?
Rams/ The Official Fire Shurmer ThreadThere's plenty more where that came from. Same stuff as on here amazingly. I think Bradford only averaged 6 yards a pass there and you better believe Jackson made a huge difference with that and Armendola was a reliable receiver.
Last edited by LOYALDAWG; 01/17/12 08:05 PM.
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And, had he played his first year or 2 for the Browns, you'd have been all over his ass and wanting to trade as many picks as necessary to get some new guy.
Can't you see your hypocrisy?
Never mind - I know you can't.
Except Eli has a bunch of things Colt wished he had you know like...Talent, Armstrength, Height..etc. The only thing Colt and Eli have in common is that they're both tough. Colt doesn't come close to Eli's talent in any other area.
You can't compare a 1st round top 5 QB with all the tools to a 3rd QB with some of the tools, mainly the non essentially ones (toughness, work ethic), and expect to give those players the same amount of rope, leeway, or time.
Its a fact of life the more heavily invested in a player the more time that player gets. Sure its not fair but neither is life. Colt had his chance, more than a lot of players get, and didn't impress. No one to blame but himself for throwing those stupid INTs in every game.
I don't have the same access to resources as the FO so I can't say that they need to trade up for Luck, draft RGIII, or sign Flynn. However, something needs to be done about the QB position. What we saw last year wasn't good enough. The QB play needs to be improved if the Browns ever want to make the playoffs. Colt didn't play well enough to go into next year as the unquestioned starter.
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Correct me if I'm wrong - but I don't know of anyone, myself included, that thinks Colt should be the unquestioned starter next year.
Did I miss something? Or are you exaggerating?
What most people have said is "don't trade 3 first round picks, plus a second rounder, plus...." for a might be.
Tell me where I'm wrong - and use quotes. Thanks.
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Correct me if I'm wrong - but I don't know of anyone, myself included, that thinks Colt should be the unquestioned starter next year.
Did I miss something? Or are you exaggerating?
Logically speaking that people, yourself included, thinks that Colt should not be unquestioned starter next year. Then therefore the QB position needs to be upgraded. How is the QB going to be upgraded. Since you do not think Colt should be the unquestioned starter you must then think that someone else should have a chance. Therefore you think the Browns should draft Luck, RGIII or get Flynn correct?
I'm asking you straightforward what do you think the Browns should do at the QB position since you are not a Colt McCoy defender and do not believe he should not be the unquestioned starter. Which implies you can't just leave the position alone.
Drafting 6th round QBs for now until the grave? Trading up for Luck or RGIII? Signing Flynn? Tannehill?
I'm kinda sick of seeing you critizing other people without putting forward your thoughts and only attacking others.
For the record:
1) If the Browns feel that Luck is truly the answer: Then trade up for him
2) Do not trade up for RGIII but if available select him at #4
3) Do not sign Matt Flynn
4) If Tannehill drops to the 2nd round and no QB was taken earlier take him
5) If none of that happens let Wallace and Colt have an open competition.
Go Browns!!
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Correct me if I'm wrong - but I don't know of anyone, myself included, that thinks Colt should be the unquestioned starter next year.
Did I miss something? Or are you exaggerating?
Logically speaking that people, yourself included, thinks that Colt should not be unquestioned starter next year. Then therefore the QB position needs to be upgraded. How is the QB going to be upgraded. Since you do not think Colt should be the unquestioned starter you must then think that someone else should have a chance. Therefore you think the Browns should draft Luck, RGIII or get Flynn correct?
I'm asking you straightforward what do you think the Browns should do at the QB position since you are not a Colt McCoy defender and do not believe he should not be the unquestioned starter. Which implies you can't just leave the position alone.
Drafting 6th round QBs for now until the grave? Trading up for Luck or RGIII? Signing Flynn? Tannehill?
I'm kinda sick of seeing you critizing other people without putting forward your thoughts and only attacking others.
For the record:
1) If the Browns feel that Luck is truly the answer: Then trade up for him
2) Do not trade up for RGIII but if available select him at #4
3) Do not sign Matt Flynn
4) If Tannehill drops to the 2nd round and no QB was taken earlier take him
5) If none of that happens let Wallace and Colt have an open competition.
I'm sure this will blow your mind......but here's what I think: If a qb is there for us to draft - even if we have to make a trade.......fine.
Come training camp, let Colt and whoever have at it. See, I'm not an idiot - if we can improve the qb position without hurting the rest of the team, I'm all for it.
What I AM against is trading crazy to get the next "might be" qb.
Does that make sense to you????????
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If a qb is there for us to draft
Which one there's about 20-30 in the draft.
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if we can improve the qb position without hurting the rest of the team, I'm all for it.
What's hurting the rest of the team? Big Money on a FA? Draft picks? a 6th rounder?
Go Browns!!
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LOL,, doesn't sound as if you understood what Arch was saying...
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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LOL,, doesn't sound as if you understood what Arch was saying...
He doesn't have a clue what I'm saying. And that's fine. He doesn't care for me, or anything I say. That's fine.
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