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1) No one thought Brees would get to the level where he is. Not when he was a free agent. He was coming off shoulder surgery.
2) Luck is a once in a long while prospect........... I would've wanted the guy last year and he didn't come out.
3) I don't look for Luck to light it up for us this year. I look at it as an investment. Something that pays itself off in the future
4) If we draft Andrew Luck we won't be flopping QBs every year. And hopefully now that we have Heckert and Holmgren, we'll have some sort of stability. Whether Shurmur stays or goes, I expect Heckert to at least stay. We got ourselves a good GM
Barkley seems like a nice pick. But what makes you think we'll have the ammunition to trade up for him? And Barkley is not in the same class as Luck anyway. I would have taken Andrew Luck, the junior, over this year's Barkley.
There's a guy who's gonna be a superstar in the NFL draft. He plays quarterback, the most important position on the football field. If we can get him, we should.
I don't even dislike Colt McCoy. I like the guy. I really hope he succeeds. I just don't think he has the tools to ever be a very good QB.
I get that some people on this board drool over QBs every year. I don't. And I feel like you're acting like there will be another Andrew Luck next year, and the year after. There won't be. Not the same caliber.
This year we have the 4th pick of the draft. We have another 1st round pick this year. If any team is in a good position to trade up to get the guy, we are. So if we can make it happen, we should.
I don't know if they thought he would get to that level but Sean Payton wanted him to be his QB and Brees very well could have been in Miami where who knows what would have happened. Believe me I get what you are saying. I understand..I do. I don't think you see what I am saying and some others but that is probably on me.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Waiting a year hurts no one
I disagree slightly with this, Trading up this year to get Luck versus Trading up next year to get Barkley (which everyone seems to be fine with, awkward)
If we Trade up to get Luck, THIS YEAR, then he has this entire TC and Regular Season to get accumulated to our offense and the NFL, so saying you lose NOTHING by waiting a year is slightly innacurate...
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Then there is Griffin now he is great and the answer to everything. Now people want to trade everything and get him
I don't want to draft Griffin in the top 10 let alone trade up for him, I don't think theres any chance we trade up for RG3, if we're trading up it better be for Luck.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I disagree slightly with this, Trading up this year to get Luck versus Trading up next year to get Barkley (which everyone seems to be fine with, awkward)
If we Trade up to get Luck, THIS YEAR, then he has this entire TC and Regular Season to get accumulated to our offense and the NFL, so saying you lose NOTHING by waiting a year is slightly innacurate...
Which brings me to the points I mentioned. I think there will be very visible improvements on Offense, Defense, Coaching, etc. Just from having a year more and an offseason and a strong draft. If we don't have that we still have that year more in the system, a reliable back-up and a better team. If you haven't noticed the best QB's in the league are going to be watching the Super Bowl from the same spot as McCoy...their Couch. I think if we have a great team and time we don't need Luck to be the QB, we will be able to get there with McCoy and a great team or be able to get a Barkley or Bray plug them in and have the same success.
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I don't want to draft Griffin in the top 10 let alone trade up for him, I don't think theres any chance we trade up for RG3, if we're trading up it better be for Luck.
This we agree on! 
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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seriously do you really think that the Colts are going to trade that first pick?
If so, what are they going to want. and please, throw away the draft value chart..
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Just throwing in my opinion (which you probably have already seen)
I'd trade 4, 22, 1st next year, later 4th, 5th. If they say no. I'd be willing to go no higher than 4, 22, 1st next year, 3rd, 4th. May be 4, 22, 1st next year, and 2nd (then we have to trade our 3rd and our 1st fourth to move up into the 2nd to get our RT)
If they say no. That's fine. Move on............ But i'd like to at least try. I don't think I could give up our 2nd because we'll probably need someone with that pick (right tackle). I'd like to have a 3rd to pick up a RB (assuming Hillis is gone). I hope to sign a DE and WR in FA, I just don't think we'll find a RT worth a damn in FA. We never have, so I'm not getting my hopes up now.
The fact that we have that number 4 pick, which can get them one of the elite players of the draft, is key
But as I said, we can't get him, no big deal. We'll still have a good draft
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seriously do you really think that the Colts are going to trade that first pick?
If so, what are they going to want. and please, throw away the draft value chart..
I don't even know if Indy knows what they are going to do... I really think it depends on Manning and who their new coach is...
But I posted in another thread a trade that I think is fair and could actually happen...
Indy Gets
2012 #4
2012 #22
2012 4th Round
2013 1st Round
2013 3rd Round
Cle Gets
2012 #1
2012 5th Round
2013 4th Round
We're losing the #22 and next years first and moving around some late rounds picks, I think it's realistic for both teams if Indy wants to go all in with Manning to win now etc. And hey, look, we still have draft picks!
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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why would indy send us back random 5th and 4th rounders (when we are also sending them 5th and 4th rounders?) that doesn't make any sense
~Lyuokdea
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Because they are getting later value by moving later picks up...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Because they are getting later value by moving later picks up...
Right - trades tend to be as simple as possible, they don't usually randomly add on additional picks from both sides (see the Falcons trade last year - we only sent our first away for a bunch of things).
You only see the "and a swap of 5ths" or something, when the two picks are in the same year, but at very different points of the 5th round -- in our case the Colts and Browns pick very close, so that swap is pretty meaningless.
A trade like yours (which I don't think will happen, but that's a different argument), would be more likely to look like:
Browns:
#1 Overall
Colts:
#4
#22
4th round pick
2013 1st Round Pick
~Lyuokdea
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I'd trade 4, 22, 1st next year, later 4th, 5th. If they say no. I'd be willing to go no higher than 4, 22, 1st next year, 3rd, 4th. May be 4, 22, 1st next year, and 2nd (then we have to trade our 3rd and our 1st fourth to move up into the 2nd to get our RT)
There probably is no way I could be convinced to do that.. I can't believe anyone would.
I don't believe Indy would accept that and I don't believe any team would pay that.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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We ain't getting Luck. With Irsay cleaning house up in Indy and checking his piggy bank for an extra 30 some million for a 36 year old QB with a bad neck and see them rebuilding with the new GM, Coach and Andrew Luck.
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I'd trade 4, 22, 1st next year, later 4th, 5th. If they say no. I'd be willing to go no higher than 4, 22, 1st next year, 3rd, 4th. May be 4, 22, 1st next year, and 2nd (then we have to trade our 3rd and our 1st fourth to move up into the 2nd to get our RT)
There probably is no way I could be convinced to do that.. I can't believe anyone would.
I don't believe Indy would accept that and I don't believe any team would pay that.
It's pretty much the same thing the Giants gave San Diego for Eli, except for the #22 pick. And the Giants made out on that deal IMO See this article
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/10278...draft-after-all
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I really think it helps our chances of getting Luck. The old GM was pretty much set on going Luck. The new GM Grigson is Great friends with Heckert. I think he wants more picks and to start rebuilding this aging franchise.
You have the Colts roster including Peyton Manning. The Browns offer you their #4, #22 and #38 for Andrew Luck. That means you have 4 picks in the top 40. You could add your future QB, DE, and Receiver ad fill the current need at corner. Those 3 picks are trade chart value and teams arent going to stay to far from that chart.
If we do that then we really need to hit some home runs in free agency and in the mid rounds of the draft. I gotta say it makes alot of sense for both teams.
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you rebuild with a QB.. you don't give up Luck for picks in that situation. just give it up.. its not happening.
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Hello!! You Play to Win the Game!! lol
Drafting Luck does not win you a single game as long as Peyton can play. You can draft and groom someone behind Manning. You dont draft a #1 to sit for 3 or 4 years. That would be about as stupid a move as they could make. Hell Luck would forget how to play QB playing behind Manning.
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We ain't getting Luck. With Irsay cleaning house up in Indy and checking his piggy bank for an extra 30 some million for a 36 year old QB with a bad neck and see them rebuilding with the new GM, Coach and Andrew Luck.
x2
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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I don't even know if Indy knows what they are going to do... I really think it depends on Manning and who their new coach is...
I think they knew the moment they found out they had the top pick..in fact, I'm guessing they knew when it became apparent that they were in the running for the 1st pick..
The only thing that could change thier thinking is if suddenly, Luck came up lame at the combine or totally bombed at the combine or in interviews. Or if some team was willing to give up thier some absolutly insane draft picks.. and what you propose isn't what I'd consider enough.. Not to give up potentially 10 or more years of winning football.
It's just my guess, but if Indy thinks Luck is all that he's supposed to be.. he's thier first choice.. boom, done deal, it's over.
Why do I say that? Well put yourself in Irsays shoes..
You've had one of the best QB's in Payton Maning ever to play the game.
Are you going to pass up a chance to get another franchise QB for the next 10 + years? My guess is that you will not.
As far as Manning, I think Irsay will work a deal to keep him. And if he can play, he'll start, Luck will sit and watch and learn.
I think it's a done deal.
As for why the browns won't do it.. it kills the franchise for two or three years more. dooming them to be bad for at least that long.
Now, if they wanna take RG3 if they think he's the guy at the number 4 spot, I don't have a problem with it. none.
but to give up all that to get a guy that may or may not be for real? I don't think so.
I find it funny, some folks on here think that it's reasonable to give up 3 firsts and some other later picks to move up to get Andrew Luck, But I bet these are the same folks that IF we had that first pick, would go nuts if the Browns would consider trading it away. 
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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I'd trade 4, 22, 1st next year, later 4th, 5th. If they say no. I'd be willing to go no higher than 4, 22, 1st next year, 3rd, 4th. May be 4, 22, 1st next year, and 2nd (then we have to trade our 3rd and our 1st fourth to move up into the 2nd to get our RT)
There probably is no way I could be convinced to do that.. I can't believe anyone would.
I don't believe Indy would accept that and I don't believe any team would pay that.
Gotta believe that's a classic one.
So no one would offer that much because it's way too much.
But you don't think Indy would accept it.
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I wouldnt trade up for anyone, but I think it is a very strong possibility. I would rather trade down pick up another 2nd and walk out with Richardson, Tannehill, Mercilus and Dwight Jones.
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I think the Browns ultimately would benefit the most by selling the farm for luck.
With that said I think there's a sweet spot in the 20-40 range where there are a lot of players that would be impact starters in 2012 for the Browns.
Janoris Jenkins CB North Alabama (O)
*Nick Perry DE Southern California (OLB)
Melvin Ingram DE South Carolina
*Mohamed Sanu WR Rutgers
Ryan Tannehill QB Texas A&M
Kelechi Osemele OG/OT Iowa State
Mike Adams OT Ohio State
*Whitney Mercilus DE Illinois
*Stephon Gilmore CB South Carolina
Lavonte David LB Nebraska
Zebrie Sanders OT Florida State
Chase Minnifield CB Virginia
*Donta' Hightower LB Alabama
*Rueben Randle WR LSU
Jared Crick 5T Nebraska (X)
*Chris Polk RB Washington
Dwight Jones WR North Carolina
Vinny Curry DE Marshall
Brandon Weeden QB Oklahoma State (O)
Bruce Irvin OLB/DE West Virginia
Therefor a trade down from 4 into this range with a 2013 #1 and a second rounder is appealing as well. Kind of like our Julio Jones trade.
Anyone in the 20s need RG3?
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Ton of teams needing receiver and corner. RG3 will go #2 overall, pretty sure of that unless the Skins trade all the way to #1 to take him.
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I wouldnt trade up for anyone, but I think it is a very strong possibility. I would rather trade down pick up another 2nd and walk out with Richardson, Tannehill, Mercilus and Dwight Jones.
Finally with an intelligent FO a draft like that might actually happen.
I'm still curious if they're thinking Flynn or Tannehill at this point.
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j/c
I really want to draft Blackmon, but Kalil as a bookend to Thomas would be awesome. As for QB, I'd like to make a play for Flynn or trade (almost anything) for Luck BUT anyone else would have to fall to us. I'm not even sure I want RG3 if he falls to us, I think I'd trade down then. The first three picks determine what we do.
Colt doesn't get the auto nod from me, but I have no problem giving him another year or so either. The only problem is that if the FO fails to make a change at QB (or at least bring in competition), I think their future will be tied to Colt's.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Hello!! You Play to Win the Game!! lol
Drafting Luck does not win you a single game as long as Peyton can play. You can draft and groom someone behind Manning. You dont draft a #1 to sit for 3 or 4 years. That would be about as stupid a move as they could make. Hell Luck would forget how to play QB playing behind Manning.
The "It ain't happenin'" crew won't understand this...BUT...
As much as alot of fans say "No one player is worth that much"...U can twist that around and say "No one player is worth so much that we can PASS on that kinda deal"...
First off...I'm SHOCKED Indy fell apart that damn bad losing ONE PLAYER...I thought they would still be an 8-8 team without Manning...I was wrong...Bigtime wrong...That tells one that that roster sucks wind from top to bottom...
So what do you do???...They can say all they want that they are taking Luck...Right now they have yet to hear ANY OFFER for that #1 pick...As much as I think they will go Luck...I'm just as sure they will not hang up the phone on a Browns team...They WILL listen...
It's a given they need to replace an aging QB...Do they feel they need to do it NOW or can they wait till 2013 to do it...That's a burning question in Indy...
What could they do with an offer from the Browns...And still get a QB that might SIT behind Manning for a year???...Pretty simple folks...There's THREE options in Round One...Having the #4 and #22 picks...
1) RGIII at 4...(How u say???)...We take Luck and the likelihood of Griffin at 4 is REAL...WE r the team the Skins and Miami know they need to get ahead of for RGIII...Indy gets em' at 4...Option #1...
2) Tannehill at #22...
3) Targeting Tannehill...Move DOWN again with Skins or Miami...Take Tanny there and get yet ANOTHER 2013 1st Rounder...
There's your QB of the future to go along with up to FIVE First Rounders the next 2 years...One could argue Indy would be STUPID...Possibly IRRESPONSIBLE passing those deals up for ONE PLAYER...
I know one thing GUARANTEED...
We are either getting Luck at #1 OR we r still gonna have an outstanding draft having 4 & 22 plus high picks in 2-3-4...This is a major Win-Win for the Browns...And I don't care how many times we hear Schefter & Mort spout off that Indy's going Luck...NOTHING is set until they make the actual pick...
Go Browns!!!
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Quote:
Quote:
I wouldnt trade up for anyone, but I think it is a very strong possibility. I would rather trade down pick up another 2nd and walk out with Richardson, Tannehill, Mercilus and Dwight Jones.
Finally with an intelligent FO a draft like that might actually happen.
I'm still curious if they're thinking Flynn or Tannehill at this point.
I like both of those options.
Flynn allows us to keep our picks.
Tannehill allows us to trade down a bit from #4 to select him and pick up say a 2nd rounder and possibly a 4th-5th rounder.
Of the rookies, I have a feeling Tannehill is going to end up the best QB. Maybe not year 1, but say in 4 years.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Actually, even better, Flynn would allow us to acquire more picks. We sign Flynn as a FA then it's obvious we are not going RG3 in the draft. Teams looking to move up in the draft for RG3 can now try to barter with us instead of St. Louis as moving to 4 should be cheaper than moving to 2.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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I hate the idea of taking Flynn. I think that he is "just another QB body", and we've had enough of those floating through here in the past decade.
We'll see what the FO thinks down the road.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Legend
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Of course the media is going to do anything that draws attention to the draft and playing up the QB position is the most effective way to get people who don't normally pay attention..to pay attention.
That's because most fans want to believe they are only one position away from turning their 4 win team into a 10 win team and most people find it easier to believe that the position in need is the QB.... it's the easiest story to sell.
yebat' Putin
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and I think he's a QB who has had time to learn the WCO, understands the offense and the adjustments that need to be made based on defenses he is seeing and has demonstrated that he is capable in limited opportunities.
#gmstrong
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Yes, he has had all of that.
However, he is still largely the same QB he was when he was drafted. he has developed some, and has learned the offense ..... but he still possesses many of the same physical limitations that he did back then, and I have a feeling that those limitations will have the team that overbids for him regretting it. We have seen QBs light it up in very limited duty only to have the bottom drop out when they get greater exposure. If we sign him, then I hope this is not the case, but I have this feeling that he is not a guy to take us to the Super Bowl, and if he isn't a guy capable of doing this, then we should stay with what we have and save the team a lot of money or look in a different direction.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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i'm not 100% on him. he has obvious risks. however, I don't think he has any more risk than RGIII. in fact, given the 'win now or else' mentality of the NFL, I would actually say he has a bit less.
as far as physical limitations, he quickly proved that he could overcome those by beating out Brohm for the backup job (2nd round pick in same draft) and Clements has had years to work on his technique with him (as he did with Rodgers before getting the nod).
is it enough to be a viable starter for the next 5-10 years? i have no idea. defenses need to see him to get a book on him and he has to prove he can adjust to that (and then keep adjusting). impossible to know today.
#gmstrong
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He'll definitely be an interesting case to watch over the next few years, as some team is probably going to guarantee upwards of $25 million and invest upwards of $50 million to see what he's got.
I just hope that we make the right decision at QB, whatever course we take.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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and I think he's a QB who has had time to learn the WCO, understands the offense and the adjustments that need to be made based on defenses he is seeing and has demonstrated that he is capable in limited opportunities.
And I THINK he's a QB that hasn't seen squat for playing time...Has NEVER been planned against by any Defensive Coordinator...And is on a team that has a HUGE advantage of plugging in any QB simply due to the fact that that said QB has been there for some time...
Here's a question for u Fynn homers...
U see what NY did to GB and Rogers Sunday?...Do u understand how it happened?...Flynn woulda been a Deer in the Lights Sunday...Rogers just SUCKED...
GB didn't lose because of dropped passes...They lost because the Giants did what everyone should do to dispupt a TIMING OFFENSE...Pressure UP THE GUT...
Flynn woulda been a lost cause in the same situation...
NO THANK YOU AT THE $ HE WILL GET...Go to WASHINGTON...
Go Browns!!!
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,985 Likes: 361
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 49,985 Likes: 361 |
I think that I would be quite ecstatic if Flynn wound up in Washington.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338
Dawg Talker
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Dawg Talker
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,338 |
I would be happy if Flynn and RG3 would end up in Washington together.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Joined: Nov 2007
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1st String
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1st String
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 323 |
any and every QB looks bad under constant pressure....is that really supposed to be an argument against flynn? that he's inadequate because even aaron rogers couldn't beat the pressure? thats some rock solid logic there...
you sure all the flynn hate isn't because he laid OSU to waste in the national championship game?
cause as i see it, college careers were similar...one good year. difference being LSU is in a real football conference with real football defenses...personally, college performance isn't really important to me. flynn has 3 years more experience griffin does. that in and of itself means his impact would be felt sooner.
cause i seem to remember another smart big 12 QB, the winning-est college QB of all time, struggling mightily to execute this offense from under center. threads galore about how shurmur wont let him play from the shotgun and the offense needs changed to suit colts strengths. so the next most intelligent thing to do would be to throw a rookie who displays the very same red flags into this rigid offense and expect different results. i mean, cam newton is good, right? im sure we can find plenty of other spots to burn all that cap space, rather than use it on a young QB thats already been in the WCO for 3 years.
lmao....
seriously people...try reading a scouting report on griffin for a change. its a nice mismatch of positives and negatives.
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Joined: Oct 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
you bring up alot of good points there but Griffin had more than 1 good year.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
and that Baylor's O-Line was terrible and he was under pretty much constant pressure all year when he put up his numbers.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,398 Likes: 280 |
Quote:
cause as i see it, college careers were similar...one good year.
I'm not going to get too deep into this.. but..
in Flynn's "one good year" he completed 56.3% of his passes for 2407 yards, 21 TDs and 11 INTs.. rushed for 215 yards (this includes sack yardage)
in RGIII's "one good year" he completed 72.4% of his passes for 4293 yards, 37 TDs and 6 INTs... rushed for 700 yards (also includes sack yardage)
There is a reason RGIII is considered a top 5 pick and Flynn was taken in the 7th round...
yebat' Putin
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,608 Likes: 89
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,608 Likes: 89 |
Quote:
you sure all the flynn hate isn't because he laid OSU to waste in the national championship game?
Seriously?
Sure there are a ton of Buckeye fans here (including me) but when it comes to finding the best players for the Browns, I don't think any of us are going to dismiss someone because they had success against Ohio State while in college. If Tom Brady were available I don't see any of us saying "Screw that, he went to UM," (Braylon's delusions notwithstanding). Bob Sanders was pimped huge on this board when he came out of school and he was a major pain to Ohio State. As was Joe Thomas .... did anyone complain when we picked him, because Ohio State defensive players couldn't beat him?
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
#gmstrong
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