Around the NFL: Best decision for Browns could be moving down
By Steve Doerschuk CantonRep.com staff writer Posted Jan 14, 2012 @ 11:41 PM
Those who know Tom Heckert have no doubt he isn’t bluffing when he says he MIGHT trade out of the Browns’ No. 4 spot in the first round.
Here’s what he says by way of warning any anti-trade contingent:
“In a perfect world, we would stay at 4, but it’s not a perfect world. If we think we can get the same guy by moving down a few spots getting an extra pick or picks, why not do that?”
That’s a debatable topic, to be sure.
If, say, one wanted the best receiver in the 2011 draft and was sitting at No. 4, one would have had to stay at 4. The Bengals did and got A.J. Green.
Heckert traded out of the No. 6 spot because the Falcons wanted the second-best receiver, Julio Jones. There was and is a difference. Green is better than Jones.
On the other hand, there are plenty of examples in which a player drafted several spots after No. 4 was a better value than the one actually picked there. Some of those:
2009:
No. 4 pick: Linebacker Aaron Curry, Seahawks
No. 13 pick: Linebacker Brian Orakpo, Chiefs
2007
No. 4 pick: Defensive end Gaines Adams, Bucs
No. 11 pick: Linebacker Patrick Willis, 49ers
2006
No. 4 pick: Left tackle D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Jets
In each of these cases, we would argue that the later pick became a better player, signed at a lower price. The only instance in which it is even close is Ferguson vs. Ngata.
Most recent No. 4 overall picks have not become great players. A few have been busts.
In 2000, for example, the Bengals spent a No. 4 pick on “can’t miss” wideout Peter Warrick. Seattle’s second-year czar, Mike Holmgren, drafted running back Shaun Alexander at No. 19.
Alexander was NFL MVP in 2005, the season in which Seattle clobbered Carolina 34-14 in the NFC championship game.
Hindsight, of course, is 20-20. The Browns can only hope that Heckert possesses 20-20 foresight.
HECKERT HISTORY LESSONS
Browns General Manager Tom Heckert has worked for Don Shula, Jimmy Johnson, Andy Reid and Mike Holmgren.
He has been in the NFL since 1991, the year Bill Belichick became a head coach in Cleveland.
He is 44 years old.
In one important sense, though, he is a rookie. The general manager of the Browns has never been in control of a draft pick anywhere close to as high as the one he is sitting on now.
Before joining the Browns in 2010, Heckert spent nine years in a position of power with Reid’s Eagles. Philadelphia gained a nice reputation for overall draft success, but the Eagles weren’t great with their first picks — not the way the Browns need Heckert to be at the four-spot.
A look at Philadelphia’s top picks when he was there:
2001: WR Freddie Mitchell, UCLA No. 25
2002: CB Lito Sheppard, Florida, No. 26
2003: DE Jerome McDougle, Miami (Fla.), No. 15
2004: OT Shawn Andrews, Arkansas, No. 16
2005: DT Mike Patterson, USC, No. 31
2006: DT Brodrick Bunkley, Florida State, No. 14
2007: QB Kevin Kolb, Houston, No. 36
2008: DT Trevor Laws, Notre Dame, No. 47
2009: WR Jeremy Maclin, Missouri, No. 19
Some of them hit some serious speed bumps. None became a great player.
Mitchell was out of the league after four years. McDougle missed the 2005 season with a gunshot wound. Andrews made a couple of Pro Bowls but fell victim to bouts with depression.
BUNKLEY GOODBYE
In August, Heckert danced around questions about a trade that would have brought defensive tackle Brodrick Bunkley to the Browns for a fifth-round draft pick, but never came off.
The deal made a lot of sense. The Browns were thin on the defensive line, and Heckert had been the Eagles GM who drafted Bunkley one spot after the Browns took Kamerion Wimbley at No. 13 overall in 2006.
Rumblings that Bunkley’s health foiled the trade don’t add up. He landed in Denver, played in all 16 regular-season games, and sacked Ben Roethlisberger in last week’s playoff win.
Pro Bowl guard Logan Mankins of the Patriots said this week: “He’s a load.”
Scott Paxson can’t be too sorry the Browns didn’t sign Bunkley. After knocking around for five years with the Steelers but getting in only one game, Paxson played in all 16 games with the Browns as an extra tackle. He probably wouldn’t have made the Browns’ roster if Bunkley, Phil Taylor and Ahtyba Rubin had been the three men in the tackle rotation.
EXTRA POINTS
• All of the talk about the Giants’ ferocious defense is tinged with Big Apple hype. New York may have turned Atlanta’s Matt Ryan into crushed ice, but the Giants ranked 27th in regular-season defense in allowing 376.4 yards a game. The Browns gave up 332.4 yards a game.
The Giants gave up 36 points in a home loss to Seattle on Oct. 9. Granted, the Seahawks were dealing with key injuries when they went to Cleveland two weeks later, but the fact remains, they lost to the Browns, 6-3.
• According to a survey group called Poll Position, 43 percent of Americans believe divine intervention is involved in the Tim Tebow story.
• Pro Football Weekly’s Nolan Nawrocki ranks the seniors entering the April draft. The top Ohio State player is center Mike Brewster at No. 47. The top-ranked Ohio college player is Miami tackle Brandon Brooks at No. 27.
Nawrocki’s top senior quarterbacks are Stanford’s Andrew Luck at No. 1 overall, Texas A&M’s Ryan Tannehill at No. 20, Oklahoma State’s Brandon Weeden at No. 40 and Michigan State’s Kirk Cousins at No. 49. web page
I love those terrible "analyses" where they show that there was somebody picked after the #4 pick who was better in almost every single draft - like the GM's option is "#4 or all the picks after him"
I really hate these "This pick has sucked in the past so we shouldn't pick here" nonsense.
Just because certain players taken at 4 have been surpassed by other players taken later does not mean that this will be the case in the future.
If this wasn't the case, then we would pass when #4 rolled around so we wouldn't have to take a cursed player at 4 ...... and because no team would trade for such a cursed pick.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Yea that stuff is silly but I believe the stage is being set for a trade down. I think Heckert sent out the message early last year that our pick was very available. I see the same thing this year.
Personaly, I think he wants Richardson but doesnt want to take him that high and he knows there will be several teams wanting to get to that spot for one of the big names int his draft.
This thread is beyond ridiculous, there is almost always an instance of someone picked later than the current pick that turns out to be better just based off of luck.
There is also this thing called scouting, maybe the Browns should do that better.
Could have, would have, should have, this is the mantra for every second guessing thread that has existed for the past 30 years. When a player busts, you often look at who was drafted behind.
No, the challenge has and always has been to hit on your player selection, and make each and every team think how they would have been bettered if they had selected your player instead.
So far, I am happy with the job H&H have done, I look for improvement next year.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Switch Burfict and I'm totally fine with that... Not that Cincy would ever give that much up for a RB, noone should... And it is Mike Brown we're talking about...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Switch Burfict and I'm totally fine with that... Not that Cincy would ever give that much up for a RB, noone should... And it is Mike Brown we're talking about...
You'll have to switch him..He's the most important one of the three if you ask me. But I think the guy will be the next Rey Lewis..JMO I wouldn't switch the next Rey Lewis..
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
I don't value him that much, from what I saw of him, he gets blocked way to easy at the college level, and has a temper that gets him in more trouble than he'd be worht...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: I don't value him that much, from what I saw of him, he gets blocked way to easy at the college level, and has a temper that gets him in more trouble than he'd be worht...
That's cool, I didn't see much of that and considering most teams were trying to take him out of the play and focus on him. He has a temper..but 11 officials were fired following an investigation into their use of the personal foul penalty and him after ASU sent film in and asked them to review it. Like facemask penalties that were not facemasks..etc.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Maybe bringing him in with solid vets like DQ and Gocong already in place would be good for him.
He's got the speed and FORCE that I think we need.
I wouldn't be upset if we drafted him. I just think he's very boom/bust and those guys usually don't do well on losing teams. Especially if they have history of attitude problems.
Hadn't heard about the firing of the refs though, that's weird.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: Hadn't heard about the firing of the refs though, that's weird.
I hadn't either so I googled it. Sure enough 11 refs were fired. I cannot say yet what the impetus for the firing was yet.. other than they said they were incompetent.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Wow, that first one had to be one of the whiniest pieces I have ever read, trying to excuse away stupid play.
Obviously the kid has talent. Whether or not he can harness and control that talent so that he can stay on the field, or whether he winds up the weekly winner of the Commissioner's suspension award for illegal violent hits is to be seen.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I didn't write it. Considering it was from a first hand witness of the situation and most of the quotes were from Dennis Erikson, whom everyone that was bashing Burfict before held in high regards I thought it was fitting.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Yes, Burfict is a highly aggressive killing machine of a linebacker. But he has many flaws. Yes, one Pac-12 crew had a bone to pick with him (for whatever reason), but what made his coach bench him? I'm pretty sure it wasn't the referees. He lacks discipline.
With all that said, I would love to have him on this team. But he has to get into better shape (he appears to be a little doughy).
I also wouldn't take him anywhere near our first pick and probably not our second pick for a few of reasons.
#1 - He lacks discipline. #2 - There will probably be players that are ranked higher or equal to him at positions of need when we are drafting. (We don't really need a middle linebacker). #3 - Linebacker is one of the easier positions to fill. (There are many linebackers that are drafted in the middle rounds that end up playing successfully, i.e. Colin McCarthy, Mason Foster, K.J. Wright, Brian Rolle, Jamar Cheney, etc.) #4 - There are players like Travis Lewis, Lavonte David, and Sean Spence who may have lower ceilings, but also have lower probability of busting. (And there ceilings still aren't that low).
If we draft Burfict in the 2nd round I will not be upset, but I also don't think it will happen. I think he is destined for a team like the Ravens, Steelers, or Patriots. Teams that have a strong veteran core and a system in place where they can take players like Burfict and not expect immediate results. Right now we need players that can get on the field and play well immediately and I don't think Burfict is that guy.
Quote: Right now we need players that can get on the field and play well immediately and I don't think Burfict is that guy.
This is where we disagree and that is fine. Not sure why you think this especially from a talent standpoint. I believe he is ready to get on the field the very first play and not only that but also make a huge impact right away. His Ceiling is higher than anyone in this years group and probably since Patrick Willis and before that Lavar Arrington. He drew some Personal fouls intentional or unintentional. We don't know the reasons for Ericson benching him. What we do know is it is not from lack of ability. For all we know is Ericson felt they were keying on Burfict and wanted to take it out of the hands of the officials. They had a knack for flagging him for the worst possible times during games, Like the Stanford Game. Not that I take much stock in Mel Kiper but does he normally rank guys that aren't ready for the NFL or ready to make an impact at no. 15 on his boards? I believe it was his Sophmore year when one PAC 12 Coach said he was NFL Ready..can't find his quote. But anyway, It's cool I was just putting the articles there for information purposes only. I'm not asking anyone to like him or we gotta get this guy. Out of anyone in this draft that we have the possability of drafting he is the guy I want. I want a LB in the middle that is good at every facet of the game and stops people from running all over us, strikes fear into the opposition, is a difference maker and a game changer from a position that is hard to find one.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: We don't know the reasons for Ericson benching him.
It's been made quite clear that he was benched for personal fouls.
Quote:
"This has totally to do with Arizona State and our football program and Vontaze," Erickson told The Arizona Republic. "I want him to be the best he can be, and if he learns from this he'll be the best he can be. He's got that issue, and he's going to overcome it and be a successful player here. At this point, if he does that he just can't play."
Quote: According to program sources, Burfict was benched for a series after committing a personal foul.
Quote: "He had a couple of late hits, and we decided to let those other guys play," ASU coach Dennis Erickson said.
Quote: "That can't continue to happen," Erickson said of Burfict's frequent personal fouls. "If it does, he just won't play. That's where it's at right now. We've been talking to him for a long time, and we'll continue to do that. Munnsy will start because of that, and Vontaze will play some."
As I've said, Burfict could flourish under the right circumstances ... I don't think Cleveland provides that, and I don't think we draft him. I wouldn't cry if we did, but I don't see it happening.
Quote: Yea that stuff is silly but I believe the stage is being set for a trade down. I think Heckert sent out the message early last year that our pick was very available. I see the same thing this year.
Personaly, I think he wants Richardson but doesnt want to take him that high and he knows there will be several teams wanting to get to that spot for one of the big names int his draft.
I can see this, and I would love for it to happen.
As long as we sign a WR in FA.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
Quote: Yea that stuff is silly but I believe the stage is being set for a trade down. I think Heckert sent out the message early last year that our pick was very available. I see the same thing this year.
Personaly, I think he wants Richardson but doesnt want to take him that high and he knows there will be several teams wanting to get to that spot for one of the big names int his draft.
I can see this, and I would love for it to happen.
As long as we sign a WR in FA.
I dunno if we'll move down. If it proves very advantageous for us, let's do it. (Assuming we'd trade with the Skins) The Tampa Bay Bucs could easily take him too. Who's their RB? Blount? I guess they'll be interested in Morris Claiborne too, though. But if he's gone, Kirkpatrick?
May be the Bucs will want Griffin though and they'll trade up with us to get him.
A bird in hand is better than two in the bush. We're trading down with only the incentive of draft picks because rookie contracts aren't as high as they used to be. It's not like we'll be saving huge amounts of money......... If we trade down and miss our opportunity to get a very good player, that's a big mistake.
If we're targeting Richardson, I think we'll take him at 4 unless we make a trade with the Bucs or something. There's only so many elite players in the draft........... This year, I really only see a list of 4 guys who aren't QBs. Kalil, Blackmon, Richardson, Claiborne
Inside information? It is awful early to know anything right now. We don't even know who their head coach is, what if they hire Marty Schottenheimer (who they have interviewed)? Something tells me they won't be running the Tampa 2 if he is hired.
Quote: Vontaze was essentially a pit bull on a leash this year.
He is incredibly aggressive and fearless. However that is also his biggest weakness.
A very short leash at that. This is that guy that you say "Vontaze I want you to shut down Ray Rice today! I want you to take him out of this game and be a non factor. We will take care of the Pass Defense and get some pressure but where ever he goes what ever he does he's yours. By the way if he stay's in to pass protect you run him over and get me that QB." Like Rey Lewis did for so many years. He shut guys down. I am sorry DQ is great and I love the Guy but he quite simply isn't that guy. Having that guy adds a dimension to your defense that is huge. We have seen mediocre to just above average LB play for years. We have been getting run over for years. Our Defense would be Stellar without a doubt if we had that guy! I then would believe that we would have one of the best LineBacking corps in the NFL. I believe that we would be as solid of a Defense player for player in the league. With the addition of a DE(Curry) it would be complete. Moving DQ outside is a no brainer and has been tossed around. That is just my opinion but it is so close and that guy is right there. You know what the added Bonus is?? You don't have to use your 4th pick to get that guy, You can move down and get him and on top of it add a Jeffrey or Mike Adams, etc. Just saying!
Last edited by LOYALDAWG; 01/16/1205:33 PM.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
Quote: I wouldn't get too worked up over whos Inside and whos Out, neither DQ or VB are the Willis/Lewis type of MLB..
I know how much we need on owfense, but if we came out of this draft with..
#4 DE Quinton Coples (UNC) #22 LB Vontez Burfict (ASU) #37 CB Chase Minnefield (Va) #68 S Markelle Martin (Ok St)
How good could our Defense be in a year or too?
...excuse me, I need to clean up this drool...
That's what I'm talkin' bout! Right on bro..
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
#4 DE Quinton Coples (UNC) #22 LB Vontez Burfict (ASU) #37 CB Chase Minnefield (Va) #68 S Markelle Martin (Ok St)
How good could our Defense be in a year or too?
...excuse me, I need to clean up this drool...
I'd be pretty pissed if this was our draft. Find someone else with that number 4 pick and we're doing better. But throwing in Coples as our number 4 pick is just a terrible choice. Watching that guy, I was very unimpressed.
I'd rather trade down if that's your plan, get myself a better DE and come out with another pick to spend. The guy's just not that good at DE. Not 4-3 DE at least. May be 3-4 DE or a DT. But from what I watched, I wasn't very impressed at all.
But who knows, may be he's a potential guy like Mario Williams and Pierre Paul were
I am not a "draft expert" but it seems like Coples draft stock is plummeting. I wouldn't be surprised if Nick Perry and Whitney Mercilus are both taken before him on draft day.
DE is a weird position, I had literally never heard of Mario Williams before he was drafted #1 overalll.
Bowers last year was the #1 overall pick at the end of the season, but he dropped (rightfully) to the middle of the second round...
Maybe we take Claiborne, and swap Minnifield for a D, I dunno, I was just illustrating a draft idea on how we could possibly solidify our Defense for years with this one draft (assuming everyone works out of course)
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: Mario Williams was a sure fire Top 5 guy at NC State and was a lethal tandem with Manny Lawson.
Those two guys looked like 6'8 small forwards on steroids. They towered over teams and just flat dominated.
There was also a pretty good DT on that team. Can't remember who that was but that was a fun team to watch. I tuned in whenever I could.
Haha, Manny Lawson. That guy was hyped on this board harddddcore. He had more sacks than Mario Williams. He's a player a lot of people wiffed on. Not a bad player on the Bengals, but he wasn't the 3-4 OLB machine people were talking about.
And I remember that DT you're talking about. I dunno who he is though. But yeah, player who was very athletically gifted. Ridiculously strong and stuff
Agreed. Just like the stocks and mutual funds warning: "Past results are not a guarantee of future performance." Trying to say this draft is similar to others, whether busts or stars, is garbage. Pass on a four trade to go down AND miss good guys is a killer. I trust Heckert, but only so far. How far tyou drop and at what price are crucial to us.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
John mccargo was the guy drafted in the first by buffalo. He was a total bust in the NFL. Count me in as one of the big Lawson pimps. Swing and a miss. Didn't transition well to OLB.
If the Browns do not come out of this draft with Griffin or Luck in my opinion the draft is a failure.
When all factors are considered this draft screams get Griffin or Luck, if Griffin were to go number one.
The Browns have been pathetic on offense for years (since Anderson, Winslow and Edwards).
The receivers scare no one. Massaquoi does not have vertical speed and is scared to go over the middle. Little has potential and maybe Norwood but we need another guy from FA or the draft.
McCoy is OK but that is his ceiling. He just doesn't have the skills to be a major impact player.
When you have no real answer at QB and you can get a good prospect you have to take that chance.
We have needs yes that is true but until you have the answer at QB you go nowhere.
Quote: When you have no real answer at QB and you can get a good prospect you have to take that chance.
We have needs yes that is true but until you have the answer at QB you go nowhere.
Sounds like you think Griffin is a good prospect and the answer at QB............. lol.
Let's see what the FO thinks. I do think they definitely understand how important the QB is, but making knee jerk reactions just to get a guy even if he doesn't have the substance to back it up is what I call failure.
If the FO drafts Griffin, then I have faith in Griffin. But if they don't and pick other guys, I think that isn't a bad call either. I assume this will mean that they don't have the faith in Griffin that some people on here do.
I do think Colt McCoy this year will be better than Colt McCoy last year, by a lot. Do I think he'll ever be a superstar, probably not. But assuming we're getting the same product as last year is incorrect, new OC, new players on offense, OTA's and time spent learning the WCO and his position with his position coach/O-Coordinator will mean vast improvements from Colt
One thing I do know is that it doesn't matter who's QB, we need better offensive weapons around them
Quote: If the Browns do not come out of this draft with Griffin or Luck in my opinion the draft is a failure.
Ahhh,, if we come out of this draft with the same number of starters that we did last year (4, Taylor, Sheard, Little and Pinkston) I think it's hard to call it a failure just because we didn't get a QB..
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
- RG3 is a MUCH better prospect than McCoy...not even in the same stratosphere. I'd bet my left nut that every NFL FO has a higher grade on RG3 than McCoy, since...
- McCoy was passed on by almost every NFL team 3 times in a VERY WEAK QB class
- Heckert traded up for a RB with bum knees in the 2nd and drafted Lauvao in the 3rd BEFORE he pleased his boss with the selection of Colt McCoy
- McCoy has a 6.3yds/PA avg after 20 career starts...5.9yds in his 1st full season with DCs having tape on him this past season...only Gabbert was worse at 5.4yds
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
Quote: If the Browns do not come out of this draft with Griffin or Luck in my opinion the draft is a failure.
Ahhh,, if we come out of this draft with the same number of starters that we did last year (4, Taylor, Sheard, Little and Pinkston) I think it's hard to call it a failure just because we didn't get a QB..
2010 also saw 4 guys see significant time as starters (Haden, Ward, McCoy, Lauvao). 3/4 may very well be starting next year and possibly all 4 (Lauvao may have to fight Pinkston if Steinbach is healthy. Obviously McCoy may very well be replaced, but he could still start especially if we get a potential replacement via the draft).
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
If we aren't interested in Griffin, moving down would be good. I hope we do to be honest. I don't really see Blackmon as anything special and don't think Richardson has the value at #4.
I'd be happy if we could drop down the board, but would want to say at or around 10-15.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
If the Browns do not find an answer at quarterback where do you think they will be at the end of next year? Or, the year after, or 2014, or 2015?
Where do you expect the Browns to be drafting next year?
The Best you can say about Colt (who I like) is; " I hope he gets better with better tools around him." What do you say about Cam Newton?
When watching Griffin you can see him make plays that Colt will never be able to make.
When you look at Griffin outside of the field once again his actions speak volumes.
When you have the ammo (@4, and 22) and you do not have a clear answer at quarterback you have to take the risk of drafting a guy like Griffin.
I don't care what needs we have. The object is winning a championship and that is really hard to do without a great quarterback.
Robert Griffin the Third is no lock but the potential is certainly there.
Just as a point in reference this what we gave up to get Kosar:
Cleveland traded their first round picks in the 1985 NFL Draft (#7) and 1986 NFL Draft, their third round pick in 1985 (#63) and their sixth round pick in 1986 to the Buffalo Bills for their first round pick in the 1986 NFL Draft. Since the Bills had the worst record in the 1984 season, they held the first pick in both the regular NFL draft and the supplemental draft in 1985. When a selection is used in the supplemental draft, that team forfeits the pick in the next regular draft which meant that the Browns could use the Bills 1986 regular draft first round pick as the first pick in the 1985 supplemental draft.
I don't think we regretted that. And I do believe Robert Griffin III is every bit the prospect Bernie was coming out of college.
He is smart. (working on graduate degree) He is regarded as a good leader. (also, parents in military) He is regarded as a team guy. (see above) He has a very strong arm. (see long highlight video i posted in Sam Wyche thread for all remaining items) He is very accurate to moving targets. He has very nice touch and throws equally well at high and lower velocities. He is effective at "throwing receivers open" with ball placement. He has a good feel for pressure and escapability. He looks to throw when scrambling. He is really, really fast.
Quote: He is smart. (working on graduate degree) He is regarded as a good leader. (also, parents in military) He is regarded as a team guy. (see above) He has a very strong arm. (see long highlight video i posted in Sam Wyche thread for all remaining items) He is very accurate to moving targets. He has very nice touch and throws equally well at high and lower velocities. He is effective at "throwing receivers open" with ball placement. He has a good feel for pressure and escapability. He looks to throw when scrambling. He is really, really fast.
Sorry man, you'll have to find more then that!
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Arm strength and pocket awareness are NFL level already...Colt lacks both and after 20 starts I've given up that he'll ever even improve to acceptable in both as both have more to do with talent than practice/experience...arm strength your body/throwing motion etc has or has not....feel for pressure while keeping eyes downfield, you either have IT or not (Colt takes his eyes off and looks at the rusher..that might have worked for him in College but that's a no go in the NFL)
That's 2 of the 3 most important categories to evaluate QBs (other being accuracy) and Colt is well below AVG at both and RG3 is at least above AVG in both...RG3 was accurate in College, so was Colt...remains to be seen how it translates to the NFL...but since Colt is well below AVG even there I think anyone who still "believes" in Colt might as well join a sect if they are into the "leap of faith" stuff
#gmstrong
"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
If the Browns do not find an answer at quarterback where do you think they will be at the end of next year? Or, the year after, or 2014, or 2015?
Pretty much stopped reading your post after that.,.,
IF... You wanna play ifs.. What if Colt McCoy is the answer and we kicked him to the curb because to some, it doens't matter that receivers dropped passes and for some it doesn't matter that the system was new (his third in 3 years)
What "IF" we drop this years 1st rounders, next years 1st rounder and a couple of lower round picks to move up to take Luck and he turns into Ryan Leaf?
What "IF" that happens? Then where will we be.. No second 1st round pick this year, no 1st rounder next year, and a couple of other picks missing and STILL NO QB, no new receivers, no RB, No LBs,. No new CB.
What then?
I don't know how people come up with this, but apparently they think if another QB throws the ball, the same damn receivers are going to somehow catch it
So, I reject your thinking from the get go.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: I don't know how people come up with this, but apparently they think if another QB throws the ball, the same damn receivers are going to somehow catch it
You don't think that there is a quantifiable difference in the way that some QBs throw the ball, with regards to how easy/hard it is for receivers to make plays after the catch, when compared to other QBs?
Really?
That explains a lot. To you a completion is a completion, no matter what the rest of the result of the play, right? If the pass is complete, it was a good decision, and a good throw?
Yeah, that would explain a whole lot.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: He is smart. (working on graduate degree) He is regarded as a good leader. (also, parents in military) He is regarded as a team guy. (see above) He has a very strong arm. (see long highlight video i posted in Sam Wyche thread for all remaining items) He is very accurate to moving targets. He has very nice touch and throws equally well at high and lower velocities. He is effective at "throwing receivers open" with ball placement. He has a good feel for pressure and escapability. He looks to throw when scrambling. He is really, really fast.
He played in 2 bowl games I wish we would have gotton a better litmus test from those. If he's worth trading everything to move up. That's not entirely saying he's not.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Quote: how easy/hard it is for receivers to make plays after the catch
Not speaking for Daman here, just myself in regards to the quote.
It's not so much the AFTER the catch as it is the CATCH itself that I have concerns with. I understand some balls are harder to catch than others and that the QB can have a lot to do with that. My issue with our receivers is their inconsistency catching balls that him them in the hands. In addition to that, I don't see them running great routes or getting separation. All of those areas need improvement - as well as the play of the QB (whomever it might be)
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
I agree that the receivers need to do a better job in a lot of areas.
However, we all know that receivers have egos ....... and I bet not one of them looks forward to catching 5 yard passes that stand no chance of going anywhere. I bet that weighs on them as much as getting smacked immediately after almost every catch does. These guys want to make the SportsCenter catches too .... the plays like Greg Little got when he broke that long TD against the Blitz ........
They all want to make those plays too ...... and if the constant hammering on short stuff isn't balanced out with some hope of making big plays, then drops and such can happen, because the receivers simply are not mentally into the game.
Let me ask a question ..... How many drops did Little have after he caught that 76 yard TD pass from Wallace? I don't remember any. He was into the game again .... excited about being there ..... and concentrating because he knew that he might get another one like that .......
No one gets excited about catching 5 yard sit down routes with half the defense within 5 yards of them.
I'm not excusing the drops ..... but I think that they are explainable. (especially with young receivers, used to making big plays in college)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Then those guys are on the wrong team, because we run the West Coast Offense which is based upon using short passing and lots of in-traffic passes to open things up.
So, they either need to learn to like it and do a better job, or they need to find a new team or career.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
"IF" you believe Colt McCoy is capable of leading a team to a championship no problem.
"If" you can not see the difference in the potential between McCoy and Griffin as quarterbacks then maybe you will acknowledge that one was drafted in the third round and the other will be a early first rounder.
This post is about moving down from the fourth pick.
What I said was we need a better QB, and we should draft one this year while we are in the position to do so. Either Luck or Griffin will do. Most believe Luck will be gone. Then Griffin will be fine even if we have to give up pick 22. If Griffin is selected number one. Then do what needs to be done to get Andrew Luck.
"IF" the Browns do not upgrade the quarterback position their chances of winning a championship are greatly reduced.
"IF" the Browns do not upgrade the quarterback position their chances of winning a championship are greatly reduced.
Where not going to win a championship this year and we are not going to press the issue if we aren't absolutely certain that it's the right thing to do. No matter what the fans and media have to say about it.
You think that the Rams wouldn't like to have our 4th and 22nd and then some possible a 2nd round pick next year.
Bradford was no better then McCoy was for them last season, but boy would they love to have our picks. One of that we obtained from trading down last year.
Quote: You don't think that there is a quantifiable difference in the way that some QBs throw the ball, with regards to how easy/hard it is for receivers to make plays after the catch, when compared to other QBs?
Go back and reread what I wrote..
If I throw a pass and it hits the receiver in the numbers and he drops it,, why is it my fault?
Don't twist my words,, However I understand the rotation of the ball theory and I'm sure it has merit. I also understand power behind the throw theory..
Again, if the ball hits a receiver in his hands, he's GOTTA CATCH IT..
Do you have a problem understanding that or is it a null and void thought since you simply want to replace McCoy?
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
This whole "hitting the receiver " in the most perfect spot is flat out stupid. Watch Brees, or Brady, or either of the Mannings - or any other quarterback.
It's an ideal that flat out doesn't exist in REAL NFL football.
Watch enough football, you'll see a few throws where you say "gees, perfect spot". Talk to the qb that threw it, and if he's honest he'll say "pure luck".
This whole garbage about "the ball needs to placed within inches" is just stupid talk. Seriously. It sounds like it comes from a wannabe expert - or from a guy that played o line.
Isn't a crapping qb alive that will hit a receiver perfectly in stride, with the ball in the perfect location............and the 10 or 20 times it happens each year, it's pure luck. Period. End of discussion.
I watch too much football to buy into that crap. Anyone that says that, or buys into it - ........doesn't know the game.
Quote: This whole "hitting the receiver " in the most perfect spot is flat out stupid. Watch Brees, or Brady, or either of the Mannings - or any other quarterback.
Legitimate (within context - there is no absolute one way or the other in this kind of discussion).
I paid very close attention to Brees in particular during the post season and what I saw was that while he is really damn good and has a cannon and great accuracy, his stats benefit GREATLY from a ton of all-around incredible individual efforts from his receivers and backs.
The vast majority of their bigger plays (sans the huge downfield throws) are the receiver making a great catch followed by nothing but individual effort for the YAC. The most significant thing about Brees is that his release is sickening fast and the ball has great velocity. He can make a decision and the ball is on its way faster than a defender can fart.
All that said, Brees puts the ball - USUALLY - in a pretty good spot... though, there were plenty of times that he didn't and if not for the receivers making crazy catches, it'd be an incompletion.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
This whole "hitting the receiver " in the most perfect spot is flat out stupid. Watch Brees, or Brady, or either of the Mannings - or any other quarterback.
It's an ideal that flat out doesn't exist in REAL NFL football.
Watch enough football, you'll see a few throws where you say "gees, perfect spot". Talk to the qb that threw it, and if he's honest he'll say "pure luck".
This whole garbage about "the ball needs to placed within inches" is just stupid talk. Seriously. It sounds like it comes from a wannabe expert - or from a guy that played o line.
Isn't a crapping qb alive that will hit a receiver perfectly in stride, with the ball in the perfect location............and the 10 or 20 times it happens each year, it's pure luck. Period. End of discussion.
I watch too much football to buy into that crap. Anyone that says that, or buys into it - ........doesn't know the game.
I agree with you Arch.. no way are most passes in a "perfect spot". But according to some on here, our QB doesn't put it in this mythical "Perfect Spot" and it's bad.. but other QB's don't put it in the "perfect Spot" and they get a pass., Why is that?
I'll tell ya, it's because they have receivers that MAKE the catch.. They go out and get the ball.
At the end of the season in his wrap up,, did Holmgren say,, Colt needs to hit his receivers more.. or did he say something about the Drops? (I really don't remember if he said that about McCoy, but I know he talked about having too many drops)
I know the other complaint about McCoy is he puts his receivers in peril.. (I beleive some have termed it, being McCoyed) Did anyone watch the Superbowl and see where Manning put some of those passes.. or Brady for that matter..
But thier receivers catch the ball.
I do believe we have a good receiver in Little.. just rusty as hell and young.. he'll get better, I'm sure of it. Cribb improved a bunch from years gone by. MoMass didn't (might be injuries,, dunno) Norwood is a guy I really like.
But outside of Little, we really don't have anyone that any defense is afraid of. And I"m not sure they are very afraid of Little at this point. (I'm hoping that changes as he matures and grows)
I do believe we haven't seen the best of Little, Cribbs and Norwood. I don't know what we have in the other guys.. I'm convinced that a FULL year in the system, with proper learning/teaching time, it will in improved production.
For myself, I'm not interested in blowing up the whole thing again..
But I'm no expert, I won't know HHS if they decide to do that. I readily admit they know a helluva lot more.
Bottom line, I don't believe it's possible for a FAN to KNOW anything.. we can think it,, But we don't know it. (and yeah, there are exceptions of course)
JMO,,
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
To take it a step further, many throws aren't meant to be in the #s: a back shoulder throw for one. Still, when the throw is in the hands, it needs to be caught most if not all of the time. Welker catches damn near everything, and even he is taking flack for not pulling one down in the S. Bowl. When the drop is the exception rather than the norm, it's a lot easier to take.
There may be people who have more talent than you, but there's no excuse for anyone to work harder than you do. -Derek Jeter
But I'm no expert, I won't know HHS if they decide to do that. I readily admit they know a helluva lot more.
Bottom line, I don't believe it's possible for a FAN to KNOW anything.. we can think it,, But we don't know it. (and yeah, there are exceptions of course)
JMO,,
Ain't a cotton picking person ON here that's an expert. But a few seem to think if they spew venom often enough, it will make them right.
They are sadly mistaken.
I know Ytown has said he won't reply to me in a football thread, and OS said he was putting me on ignore. (I actually take that as a pat on the back)..........but I also have to believe neither one of them has played the game of football at a high level - not even a high level in high school - because if they had, they'd know they were talking out of their asses.
I didn't say I was putting you ON ignore, just that I woudln't be replying to you, but your need to throw my name out there, and the fact that you think people ignoring you makes you special for some reason, is really weird to me...
But that's just MY OPINION. Just like everything I post on here is MY OPINION.
Everyone has them, including you, you just feel the need to belittle people that have a different one. Because yours is so special...
Hell guess what Holmgen, Heckert, Shurmur and everyone on the NFL will be basing their decisions on? That's right! Their OPINIONS...
I'm not sure what me playing HS Football has to do with the fact that Colt didn't play very well last year...?
So if two people hold the EXACT SAME Opinion, one means more because they played football in High School? Wow... Really? That explains alot about your thought process...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
People saying that QBs don't have differing degrees of accuracy and such is ridiculous. If that was the case, then the only deciding factors in drafting a QB would be arm, and reading a defense. Not every pass is a winner from any QB ..... but certain QBs have better accuracy, both to stationary QBs and to moving targets. It's largely what separates a great QB from a good, fair, or bad one. This applies to both stationary and moving targets. I am just stunned that anyone would dispute this.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
But I'm no expert, I won't know HHS if they decide to do that. I readily admit they know a helluva lot more.
Bottom line, I don't believe it's possible for a FAN to KNOW anything.. we can think it,, But we don't know it. (and yeah, there are exceptions of course)
JMO,,
Ain't a cotton picking person ON here that's an expert. But a few seem to think if they spew venom often enough, it will make them right.
They are sadly mistaken.
I know Ytown has said he won't reply to me in a football thread, and OS said he was putting me on ignore. (I actually take that as a pat on the back)..........but I also have to believe neither one of them has played the game of football at a high level - not even a high level in high school - because if they had, they'd know they were talking out of their asses.
Well, in the end, those that say McCoy isn't THE guy,, may end up being right.. dunno., I think he'll be improved, I think he can be a winner at this level.. I THINK that. don't know it.
But I must concede, I could be totally wrong... And I'm not afraid to admit when I am. So anyone that wants to can call me on it in a few years. or maybe even next year.. we'll see.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: I didn't say I was putting you ON ignore, just that I woudln't be replying to you, but your need to throw my name out there, and the fact that you think people ignoring you makes you special for some reason, is really weird to me...
But that's just MY OPINION. Just like everything I post on here is MY OPINION.
Everyone has them, including you, you just feel the need to belittle people that have a different one. Because yours is so special...
Hell guess what Holmgen, Heckert, Shurmur and everyone on the NFL will be basing their decisions on? That's right! Their OPINIONS...
I'm not sure what me playing HS Football has to do with the fact that Colt didn't play very well last year...?
So if two people hold the EXACT SAME Opinion, one means more because they played football in High School? Wow... Really? That explains alot about your thought process...
Yup - all that is exactly what I said, right?
You seem to keep harping on the "you think your opinion is worth more than others opinions" crap. Sad thing is, I've never said that.
What I HAVE said is my opinion is worth every bit as much as yours. You seem to not get that. Because I disagree with you, you get upset.
I had the opportunity to listen Coach Kerhes of Mount Union speak a week or so ago. The conversation got around to QBs,what he looks for and grading them. He defines accuracy as this; A reciever holds his arm out to his side parallel to the ground,he bends his arms 90 degrees downward at the elbow,then bends 90 degrees upward to form an imaginary box.(It would be nice if I had a visual aid here) His QBs are assesd on the percentage of passes they throw "in the box" now remember that box moves as the reciever moves and if the reciever has to break his stride,it's not graded as a good pass.AQB with acceptable,not good,accuracy will hit on 75% of his throws,practice and games combined. As a side note,these are the 5 attributes he looks for in a QB 1.intelligence 2. mental toughness 3. leadership 4.accuracy 5.mobility
I've never disagreed with anyone on how peoples opinions merit versus themselves.
You were the one that stated "If people havn't played HS Football then they don't know what they're talking about"
You were the one that called me stupid for stating my opinion (oh I'm sorry, you did it in the form of a question, that's completely different right?)
I don't have a problem with opinions, I don't even disagree with most of them (I've stated many of times im OK with Colt starting next season, I just think we can do better) You are the one that feels the need to attack people that state their opinions...
But I'M the one with the problem...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
If anyone ever watched the Sports Science segment with Drew Brees, you would have an appreciation of accuracy. It is more than luck. It is a fun watch... 20 of 20 or something silly like that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I am not going to get in to where the perfect spot might be.
I do know Colts tends to underthrow the ball a high percentage of the time, making his receivers slow down, which pretty much eliminates the YAC potential.
Colt is pretty accurate when throwing to a stationary target, and not very accurate when throwing to a moving target.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: I had the opportunity to listen Coach Kerhes of Mount Union speak a week or so ago. The conversation got around to QBs,what he looks for and grading them. He defines accuracy as this; A reciever holds his arm out to his side parallel to the ground,he bends his arms 90 degrees downward at the elbow,then bends 90 degrees upward to form an imaginary box.(It would be nice if I had a visual aid here) His QBs are assesd on the percentage of passes they throw "in the box" now remember that box moves as the reciever moves and if the reciever has to break his stride,it's not graded as a good pass.AQB with acceptable,not good,accuracy will hit on 75% of his throws,practice and games combined. As a side note,these are the 5 attributes he looks for in a QB 1.intelligence 2. mental toughness 3. leadership 4.accuracy 5.mobility
Just bumping this. I hate the last post on a page because I feel it gets lost sometimes once the next page gets going (is that just me?) and felt this was a good enough post that it should be carried over.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: I had the opportunity to listen Coach Kerhes of Mount Union speak a week or so ago. The conversation got around to QBs,what he looks for and grading them. He defines accuracy as this; A reciever holds his arm out to his side parallel to the ground,he bends his arms 90 degrees downward at the elbow,then bends 90 degrees upward to form an imaginary box.(It would be nice if I had a visual aid here) His QBs are assesd on the percentage of passes they throw "in the box" now remember that box moves as the reciever moves and if the reciever has to break his stride,it's not graded as a good pass.AQB with acceptable,not good,accuracy will hit on 75% of his throws,practice and games combined. As a side note,these are the 5 attributes he looks for in a QB 1.intelligence 2. mental toughness 3. leadership 4.accuracy 5.mobility
Just bumping this. I hate the last post on a page because I feel it gets lost sometimes once the next page gets going (is that just me?) and felt this was a good enough post that it should be carried over.
He's a heck of a Coach and not just because my nephew Craig Leone [Riverside] played RB for him either, before an injury ended his dream
Now he is a 1st Lieutenant in the Army Rangers. Sis still blamed me for causing that decision LOL
Reading some of these post you would think that Arm Strength would be in his top 5 attributes.
Quote: Reading some of these post you would think that Arm Strength would be in his top 5 attributes.
Could be completely unrelated but could the fact that mount union is division III college football affect this at all? Maybe arm strength at that level is a less important attribute. Not saying that is the case, just posing the question.
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: Reading some of these post you would think that Arm Strength would be in his top 5 attributes.
Could be completely unrelated but could the fact that mount union is division III college football affect this at all? Maybe arm strength at that level is a less important attribute. Not saying that is the case, just posing the question.
Perhaps to a degree, but it's more likely that it's just further down the list.
Quote: Reading some of these post you would think that Arm Strength would be in his top 5 attributes.
Could be completely unrelated but could the fact that mount union is division III college football affect this at all? Maybe arm strength at that level is a less important attribute. Not saying that is the case, just posing the question.
I think that you expect a certain level of arm strength at the professional level, and in fact, disqualify anyone falling below a certain level. Thus it becomes of somewhat lower importance.
Obviously a QB must be intelligent, especially in a complex offense like we run. In many ways, the smarter the QB the quicker he could be expected to pick things up.
Mental toughness is vital for a QB, especially a QB coming into a less than ideal situation. If he lacks that toughness, he'll crack under the pressure like an egg in a vice.
The QB has to be the leader of the team. One voice must speak in the huddle. I remember when DA took over as starting QB how Joe Thomas and others spoke about how he silenced the other voices in the huddle, voices that were loud and pronounced when Frye was the QB. The QB has to lead, and get the team to follow. If he can't, then he's just a placeholder.
Accuracy has been the subject of a great deal of debate ..... much, much more than I ever would have believed possible.If a QB is inaccurate, or throws the ball to the wrong spot, side, or such, then it could be a completed pass, but it's not going to be a big play.
I found that sports science thing on Drew Brees. It's pretty incredible.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
In relation to Brees' accuracy - this means nothing. He's accurate. But the vid is misleading, to say the least - comparing a 20 yd. football throw to a 75 yd. archery shoot.
Anyway - only reason I bring it up is because I was thinking "dang - I might have a future as an olympic archer if they shoot at 20 yds. and only hit the bulls eye 50% of the time.
That's a good question about D-3 ball,and as it always seems with profound questions,I have no idea. My Sat.during the fall are occupied,so I've not actually seen MU play,but,I have caught several of their JV games on Sun.They run a quick pass spread O.The ball is out of the QB's hand quickly and doesn't travel that far. Remember,this is at the JV level,and it may have more to do with who they were playing,than with how they actually play. Now that I really think about,I maynot know what I'm talking about,as Ispend alot of time tailgating,BS'ing and staring at the cheerleaders.It's my day off.
Quote: I'd be happy if we could drop down the board, but would want to say at or around 10-15.
I proposed this to my brother (who likes the Browns but whose #1 team is the Cowboys) and if Morris Claiborne is there, that we could trade down from 4 to 14 (Dallas' pick) and acquire their first next year and a third this year and a 2nd next year. They desperately need a top-flight CB in a bad way.
Throw out the 'draft value chart', is that too much to ask for? He said that he wouldn't take it if he was making the decisions in Dallas.
Some believe Tannehill is slotted for #14 to Dallas... I dunno...
Does Jerry think he's a top flight CB away? Or better yet, does Jerry just want to make another big move so people will start talking about Jerry again?
Depending on who's at #4, I'd take it ONLY if we got the #1 next year, there are FEW trade downs this year (especially if someone wants a QB) that I won't be asking for a #1 next year...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
The value chart is about to be rewritten. a trade up that costs a 3rd last year could cost a 2nd and 4th this year. 2nd round last year you may be looking at 2nd this year as well as a 2nd in next years. Those bottom teams are going to want to move up for the elite players since the pricetag is so low for them and lets fact it you aren't going to have 8 or 9 rookies make the playoff teams roster.
Quote: Some believe Tannehill is slotted for #14 to Dallas... I dunno...
Does Jerry think he's a top flight CB away? Or better yet, does Jerry just want to make another big move so people will start talking about Jerry again?
Depending on who's at #4, I'd take it ONLY if we got the #1 next year, there are FEW trade downs this year (especially if someone wants a QB) that I won't be asking for a #1 next year...
He will if he wants to make money. I haven't met a single Cowboys fan (and I know a great deal of them) that think that Terrence Newman is the answer. A few of them would trade him for anything offered or flat out release him if they couldn't sucker anyone into giving up a draft pick for him. Seems that Jones isn't impressed (link) and Newman will be out of the league. No team is likely to even give him a roster spot after Dallas releases him.
Yeah, they're going to be looking for the best CB they can get their hands on and we might be able to benefit from it.
Theres a difference between NEEDING a CB, and trading multiple picks for one...
Cle and Arizona currently enjoy their CBs they've drafted, hell Peterson WON games for Arizona last year...
But would either team have traded UP for them? I doubt it...
Dallas could sit at 14 and take Kirkpatrick and sign a FA, but the idea of Jerry wanting to make a SPLASH (because it's been a year since he has) is basically the only way I think we'd get a deal done...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
Quote: Theres a difference between NEEDING a CB, and trading multiple picks for one...
Of course, but if that CB is viewed as elite (as Claiborne is) and you're picking at #14 (with no chance of getting him otherwise), you may want to go up and get him (Atlanta went up and got Julio Jones, further than Dallas would have to go) for what many consider a less crucial position and a less-sure bet than what Claiborne is presumed to be.
Of course, we'll have to see if Claiborne is all that and if Julio Jones turns into what Atlanta thought he would be (although, their record and playoff result was worse this year than it was last year - they had a first round bye last year) despite getting Julio Jones in the trade with us.
Patrick Peterson did rather decently (4 return TDs and 2 picks) for a rookie last year. I truly think that the Browns would have selected him if Arizona hadn't but that our option of trading down was triggered when Arizona nabbed Peterson.
Quote: Cle and Arizona currently enjoy their CBs they've drafted, hell Peterson WON games for Arizona last year...
But would either team have traded UP for them? I doubt it...
Neither the Browns nor Arizona had to. Claiborne won't make it anywhere near the #14 spot for Dallas. If he's on the board when the Browns draft, he could very well be the Browns pick (and not a bad consolation prize for missing out on Peterson by 1 selection last year) and if the Browns don't take him, it's quite likely that Tampa Bay will.
Quote: Dallas could sit at 14 and take Kirkpatrick and sign a FA, but the idea of Jerry wanting to make a SPLASH (because it's been a year since he has) is basically the only way I think we'd get a deal done...
Maybe Kirkpatrick will be there at #14. I highly doubt it though. There are a number of teams looking for CBs ahead of Dallas and Kirkpatrick's legal issues will cause a number of them to pass on him, maybe even Jerry Jones.
Quote: I'd be happy if we could drop down the board, but would want to say at or around 10-15.
I proposed this to my brother (who likes the Browns but whose #1 team is the Cowboys) and if Morris Claiborne is there, that we could trade down from 4 to 14 (Dallas' pick) and acquire their first next year and a third this year and a 2nd next year. They desperately need a top-flight CB in a bad way.
Throw out the 'draft value chart', is that too much to ask for? He said that he wouldn't take it if he was making the decisions in Dallas.
Not only do u not get it about QB's in the NFL...
Now u wanna trade away a Top 3 ELITE talent also...
Someone else said it and they r 100% correct...This draft has 6 ELITE talents...5 if u don't consider Blackmon elite...
Picks in future drafts r not coveted and u wanna make a move like that for TWO picks next year...The only reason they get added to any trade is because teams don't have enough high picks is THIS draft to compensate a decent deal...
If we trade away Claiborne we r FOOLS...He may just be the 2nd BPA behind Luck...
I would put Claiborne at 3 right now, behind Luck and Griffin. I don't see us taking the WR at 4 unless those 3 are gone ...... and maybe not even then.
I guess I should add ...... IMHO ..... as if it was anything but my opinion .........
Last edited by YTownBrownsFan; 02/16/1206:49 AM.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I really don't see us going OL at 4. Not to fill the RT spot. I think that Kalil is a good talent, but I don't think that the value/position trade-off is there for the 4th overall pick for our team to fill the RT spot. I think that if he was the guy left on the board for us, we would look to trade down ........
and as always ...... JMHO.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I'm thinking the first next year and all other picks must be this years draft. But only if the FO is on the fence about McCoy or believes he is the guy. That way if they are wrong we have most of the pieces in place and the picks to move up and get the best QB available next year. In particular Barkley as I think he will be better than Griffin ( just my opinion).If we start McCoy and he ends up not being the guy we will be picking top ten next year.
I agree on the value for position, but I see so much of a dropoff after Kalil/Reiff to the rest of the OTs. I don't see as much of a dropoff from Blackmon to K-Wright/Sanu. Or from Richardson to L.Miller/Wilson. (and my preference is to get RT/RB/WR in the first 3 picks as I think we have value spots to fill in each)
so, I would consider RT at #4 based on that but would ultimately love to trade down if we could.
Left tackles and right tackles asked to do different things. LT's are asked to be primarily pass blockers. A guy who can take on the defenses best pas rusher and handle him one on one. Any quality run blocking is considered a bonus.
The RT is asked to primarily be a strong run blocker. In the passing game the RT is often helped out by the TE or Rb.
LT's go higher because they are harder to find.
Kalil is a LT. He is a very good pass protector but doesn't have the size and strength to be a RT - IMO
Am I perfect? No Am I trying to be a better person? Also no
Quote: Left tackles and right tackles asked to do different things. LT's are asked to be primarily pass blockers. A guy who can take on the defenses best pas rusher and handle him one on one. Any quality run blocking is considered a bonus.
The RT is asked to primarily be a strong run blocker. In the passing game the RT is often helped out by the TE or Rb.
LT's go higher because they are harder to find.
Kalil is a LT. He is a very good pass protector but doesn't have the size and strength to be a RT - IMO
I agree Kalil like JT are better left on the weak side.
not sure that applies as much in the WCO though. depends on what we do with it, of course.
but, having a guy like Kalil, we would be able to use Moore as TE more often as he wouldn't have as much pass-blocking responsibilities. Also, RTs in the WCO have more pass blocking responsibilities anyway.
Also, the LG is supposed to have alot more pulling options to the right side in the WCO (we abandoned some of that late as Pinkston isn't the quickest guy in the world). If Steinbach is back, then we could do these overload runs to the right and having a good but not great run-blocking RT could still work well.
Or, we could trade down and pick Reiff who is more of that prototypical RT.
Quote: I'd be happy if we could drop down the board, but would want to say at or around 10-15.
I proposed this to my brother (who likes the Browns but whose #1 team is the Cowboys) and if Morris Claiborne is there, that we could trade down from 4 to 14 (Dallas' pick) and acquire their first next year and a third this year and a 2nd next year. They desperately need a top-flight CB in a bad way.
Throw out the 'draft value chart', is that too much to ask for? He said that he wouldn't take it if he was making the decisions in Dallas.
Not only do u not get it about QB's in the NFL...
Now u wanna trade away a Top 3 ELITE talent also...
Someone else said it and they r 100% correct...This draft has 6 ELITE talents...5 if u don't consider Blackmon elite...
Picks in future drafts r not coveted and u wanna make a move like that for TWO picks next year...The only reason they get added to any trade is because teams don't have enough high picks is THIS draft to compensate a decent deal...
If we trade away Claiborne we r FOOLS...He may just be the 2nd BPA behind Luck...
Oh, I'm not sure that I would pass up on Claiborne. I'm just tossing out the possibility. There are lots of possibilities for the Browns in this draft but there will be lots of opportunities in the draft next year too.
We could very well take Claiborne if he is there, but we could also target getting a very high quality player in the middle of the first round and pile up additional picks.
I'm not sure that I understand the view that a player (even a talented one) must be taken in any draft if players with very high talent levels can be accumulated in the draft in successive years.
For example, we could possibly get two first rounders in this draft and in next year's draft and multiple second rounders in the draft as well (yeah, I highly value the opportunity to get highly talented players in the draft as frequently as possible). Sure, you could get an elite player in the Top 5 or Top 10 of the draft. That's quite possible, and highly probable. You could also select a phenomenal bust. You could do the same further down in the first round, but you're likely to get a highly productive player further down in the draft. A look at recent drafts will verify this.
Give me more choices later in the first round and in the second round over a Top 5 or even Top 10 picks! Sure, if you draft in the Top 5, you'll hit on a high quality player most of the time, but your odds of hitting on one increase with the greater your numbers of picks in the first two rounds than if you hold firm to a Top 5 or Top 10 pick when you have one. When you're picking in the Top 5 or Top 10 consistently, the team obviously has more holes than it can fill with the number of picks you're getting.
I would certainly entertain the idea of going up and getting Andrew Luck if the price wasn't too high and he was available at #2 (if Indy somehow falls in love with RG3 and takes him over Luck). I'd give the #4 and #37 for him if I got the Rams #2 and their 3rd.
If the Rams demanded the #4 & #22, then I'd demand the #2, their 2nd and their 3rd, but I wouldn't necessarily initiate the call.
The more I think about it and the closer we get to the draft I firmly believe this is the best option for us at this point and moving forward. Knowing that Heckert and Holmgren have stayed true to building through the draft and not going crazy in free agency and taking into consideration the amount of holes and lack of depth on our roster help's reinforce that thought for me.
I am starting to wonder where Heckert and Company have Coples rated on their Board. If you can pick up an extra 2nd and still get your top rated DE I think you have to look at it. It fills a position of need with your highest valued guy. I wouldn't mind going Defense with the first two picks if we get an extra 2nd and maybe more depending on how far down we can go and still get our guy. I believe that we need to finish it off and stop the run to compete in our Division. Every team in our division is stronger on the Defense than on offense. If we want to compete we need to stop their weakness to stay in games instead of hoping and failing to attack their strength. We give ourselves a better opportunity to win if we keep the score low and keep their offense from running at will and controlling the clock. We are not going to just start outscoring teams in our second year in the system but with a second year in and a full offseason we will score more and with a better defense we can turn a lot of those close games into W's.
I know Coples has some questions but the Brass know what they are looking at, I think the knock is he lacked effort and consistency. McShay had this to say about him. "The talent is top-five," McShay said. "I mean, it's hard to really debate that when you look at his size, his quickness, his ability to turn speed to power as a pass-rusher, his ability to seal off the edge and really defend the running game with some power, size and strength, he can do it all." We need to stop the run and put more pressure on the passer with our front four. I can't help Salivate over the Thought of having a front four of Sheard, Rebin, Taylor, and Coples.
Then the thought of adding Vontaze Burfict to add a nastiness and enforcer in the middle and a leader on the field. You can question Burfict, but the guy goes hard every play. Mayock doesn't particulary care for him, but I see an impact player with all the tools. Just watching him, I have no idea where Mayock comes off with this. He basically rebuted every positive attribute this guy was known for his first three years. Which are instincts, strength at point of attack, and ability to make a play with blockers on him. The negatives were his personal foul penalties and ability to control his anger on the field after the whistle blows. Like Newton did last year, I look for Burfict makes Mayock look silly again.
A trade down with Seattle would be nice so I will use that as my target team in my Brown's Mock. I will use their 2nd this year as part of the trade and would also include the remaining value from a pick in next years draft.
I think we will sign a WR in Free agency Colston or Meachem.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
It cracks me up that you still have us taking Burfict in the first round.
Quote: “I’m not a fan at all,” Mayock said of Burfict on Wednesday’s conference call with the media. “I just watched a bunch of his tape the other day. I came away unimpressed.”
Burfict has been criticized for off-field issues as well as his on-field self control, committing a high number of personal foul penalties. Mayock said he tried to filter out Burfict’s off- and on-field character when breaking down the player.
“His instincts aren’t good,” Mayock added. “He gets enveloped by bigger bodies and he runs around blocks. … For a big, strong guy, he’s nowhere near as strong at the point of attack as I thought he’d be.
Quote: It cracks me up that you still have us taking Burfict in the first round.
Oh my Gosh, what was I thinking!!! Not sure why you posted what Mayock thinks? Like it has some bearing on what I think. I really don't care what Mayock thinks and I highly doubt that Heckert cares either. Sometimes you have to use common sense and your own Brains. Some of you look at these Mock drafters like the bible. It's just a reference. Just because Mayock said that mean's squat. More Mocks than not have him going to the Ravens at 29 anyway. Yep, I still maintain he is a first round talent..Kiper had him ranked 15th last I checked but that doesn't matter either..The only thing that matters is where the team that drafts him has him ranked.
Heckert has already proven that he uses his own board..He selected Hardesty and I think Phil Taylor and Ward..I don't think any of the Draft Mockers had any of those guys ranked where we took them. Even a guy like Jordan Cameron..
I am suprised that is all you have to add to my previous post. I offered reasons I think moving down and an option different than going offense and instead strengthening the D and why I think it will help us be more competetive in the division and all you add is about a player that Mayock recently criticized. Selecting Burfict in the first is not as outlandish as some of you make it out to be. It might not be the player you like but that is your opinion. There is already a Burfict thread which you referenced so let's not make this another one. Here is a counter reference for fun. Walter Football Reference
Strengths: Sideline-to-sideline speed Quickness to the hole Fabulous closing speed Tough run defender Has the ability to take on and shed blocks Good instincts Tackling technique Ideal size Plays with shear violence Hard hitter Quick feet Strong pass defender Understands zone concepts Adept at reading quarterback's eyes Gets good depth in his zone drops Fabulous blitzer Plays with a mean streak Ability to produce game-changing plays Driven competitor
Weaknesses: Underwhelming junior season Overly aggressive at times Consistently draws penalties Needs more self control At his size, could get stiff as he ages
Last edited by LOYALDAWG; 02/19/1206:44 PM.
"Going from 4-12 to 6-10 isn't good enough. I believe we are going to be better than that. We're going to be a lot better than that." - Mike Holmgren (3/15/12)
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Like it has some bearing on what I think. I really don't care what Mayock thinks and I highly doubt that Heckert cares either. Sometimes you have to use common sense and your own Brains. Some of you look at these Mock drafters like the bible. It's just a reference. Just because Mayock said that mean's squat. More Mocks than not have him going to the Ravens at 29 anyway. Yep, I still maintain he is a first round talent..Kiper had him ranked 15th last I checked but that doesn't matter either..The only thing that matters is where the team that drafts him has him ranked.