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I'd still take Ramses Barden over Veikune. ::shrug:;
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My Draft nightmare is doing anything that doesn't get us at least ONE stud playmaker on the O side of the ball. Someone other teams have to prepare for each and every week.
I'm sick of the pathetic display on offense and the lack of playmakers anywhere on that side of the ball. Some teams have a player or players that play on crummy teams yet you STILL see the great talent and desire that player has when the ball is in his hands..
We have NONE of those. NO excitement, NO anticipation of greatness, NO faith or following in ANYONE that merits anything other than "he has potential" at best.
Say what you want.. but this team NEEDS some excitement, some national press coverage that isn't a Madden joke or a debate about head injuries. Take a chance, I don't care if it's QB, WR or RB. We need a PLAYMAKER, period. The Browns are really close to becoming the new Ohio Bungals and I'm sick of "filling in the roster" while I see the other AFC north teams with QB/WR combos that make ours look like a joke.
Yea Mike.. The Browns will always have fans.. but NO relationship is immune to the constant heart break and disapointment the Browns fans have indured over the years. Watching the Browns these last few years is like going through a multi year divorce, knowing the misery will never end and it always seems to get worse.
You and Pat say "you get it"... So go get IT
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Quote:
My Draft nightmare is doing anything that doesn't get us at least ONE stud playmaker on the O side of the ball. Someone other teams have to prepare for each and every week.
I'm sick of the pathetic display on offense and the lack of playmakers anywhere on that side of the ball. Some teams have a player or players that play on crummy teams yet you STILL see the great talent and desire that player has when the ball is in his hands..
We have NONE of those. NO excitement, NO anticipation of greatness, NO faith or following in ANYONE that merits anything other than "he has potential" at best.
Say what you want.. but this team NEEDS some excitement, some national press coverage that isn't a Madden joke or a debate about head injuries. Take a chance, I don't care if it's QB, WR or RB. We need a PLAYMAKER, period. The Browns are really close to becoming the new Ohio Bungals and I'm sick of "filling in the roster" while I see the other AFC north teams with QB/WR combos that make ours look like a joke.
Yea Mike.. The Browns will always have fans.. but NO relationship is immune to the constant heart break and disapointment the Browns fans have indured over the years. Watching the Browns these last few years is like going through a multi year divorce, knowing the misery will never end and it always seems to get worse.
You and Pat say "you get it"... So go get IT
This guy is exactly right. so This.
I have a new draft nightmare that started today, right along with these lines.
This team can't score a touchdown to save it's life. If this team, having 4 picks in the top 3 rounds of the april draft, should use any 2 of those picks on a Corner, or an Offensive Lineman, ...AGAIN  ....or any combination of 2 Db's or 2 offensive linemen.... like they have before.
Then That would be a Freakin Draft NIGHTMARE! 
Because those players probably aren't going to score a touchdown ( even ONE touchdown ) in their entire careers!
 ... Ohh! How many TD's have these great Offensive lineman and Defensive Backs top round picks of the Browns from the last 9 years scored?
And the Team! Scoring 17 points ( Yipp EEE! ) on a good day, and averaging 13 points a game.
Quarterback, Wide Receiver, Runningback, 3 biggest priorities! And Forget Free Agency addressing these needs and avoiding them in the draft because Free Agents Aren't Motivated because they came from another team.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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It's hard to know what my draft nightmare because free agency hasn't happened yet. Some have said we have to get a "playmaker" in the first round, what if we sign DeSean Jackson? I'm sure your draft nightmare would change. Some have said we should "finish the defense", what if we somehow get Mario Williams? I;m sure their draft nightmares would change. Some have said we have to do whatever we can to get RGIII, what if it is determined by our front office that Colt McCoy gets another year? Wait, no that's my nightmare. Not Colt starting, but coming on here and hearing people complain about it.
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My nightmare would be Blackmon or Richardson at #4. I'd rather trade down if Blackmon is there.
Same. Blackmon might be the best wide receiver in the draft, but that does not make him worthy of a top four pick.
Agree 100%. I know he keeps getting mocked in the top four but I just don't see it. Just because a guy is getting mocked in the Top 5 doesn't mean he's actually worth a Top 5 pick. When I think Top 5 pick receiver, I think of elite skillsets. AJ Green last year met my definition even though his top speed was a little bit less than what I'd want. With Blackmon, he doesn't have elite size, doesn't have elite speed and has mental lapses that lead to dropped balls. He's a strong, solid receiver no doubt but Top 5? No way I'd draft him that high... and to make matters worse, we already have a similar receiver to him in Greg Little. Heckert has said we need to add speed to our offense and I just don't see it with Blackmon. Green/Jones went 4/6 last year and I'd easily draft Blackmon behind both of them... he's a Top 10-15 guy to me, not Top 5.
We're... we're good?
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Quote:
Quote:
My Draft nightmare is doing anything that doesn't get us at least ONE stud playmaker on the O side of the ball. Someone other teams have to prepare for each and every week.
I'm sick of the pathetic display on offense and the lack of playmakers anywhere on that side of the ball. Some teams have a player or players that play on crummy teams yet you STILL see the great talent and desire that player has when the ball is in his hands..
We have NONE of those. NO excitement, NO anticipation of greatness, NO faith or following in ANYONE that merits anything other than "he has potential" at best.
Say what you want.. but this team NEEDS some excitement, some national press coverage that isn't a Madden joke or a debate about head injuries. Take a chance, I don't care if it's QB, WR or RB. We need a PLAYMAKER, period. The Browns are really close to becoming the new Ohio Bungals and I'm sick of "filling in the roster" while I see the other AFC north teams with QB/WR combos that make ours look like a joke.
Yea Mike.. The Browns will always have fans.. but NO relationship is immune to the constant heart break and disapointment the Browns fans have indured over the years. Watching the Browns these last few years is like going through a multi year divorce, knowing the misery will never end and it always seems to get worse.
You and Pat say "you get it"... So go get IT
This guy is exactly right. so This.
I have a new draft nightmare that started today, right along with these lines.
This team can't score a touchdown to save it's life. If this team, having 4 picks in the top 3 rounds of the april draft, should use any 2 of those picks on a Corner, or an Offensive Lineman, ...AGAIN ....or any combination of 2 Db's or 2 offensive linemen.... like they have before.
Then That would be a Freakin Draft NIGHTMARE!
Because those players probably aren't going to score a touchdown ( even ONE touchdown ) in their entire careers!
... Ohh! How many TD's have these great Offensive lineman and Defensive Backs top round picks of the Browns from the last 9 years scored?
And the Team! Scoring 17 points ( Yipp EEE! ) on a good day, and averaging 13 points a game.
Quarterback, Wide Receiver, Runningback, 3 biggest priorities! And Forget Free Agency addressing these needs and avoiding them in the draft because Free Agents Aren't Motivated because they came from another team.
Because as we all know, Offensive Lineman have NOTHING to do with scoring Offensive Touchdowns...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Interesting take on Blackmon. From most of the Mocks (which I understand mean nothing) we should have good options at 22 for either a QB or a WR and if they dont like either of the QB or WR at #4 I think the pick at #4 will be 1 of CB/OL/RB or trade down if we can find a dance partner.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Jc..
Good thread..
I do NOT want Blackmon, or trading up for anyone except Luck... A close second nightmare for me would be for us to draft Claiborne and I really really like the guy... Play makers are what we need as many of you have already mentioned.. We need a player at #4 that teams need to game plan against and the ONLY ones I see that I are in the top 5 are Luck, RG3 or Richardson..
I would rather us draft Coples over Claiborne as the new rules really devalue the need for a shutdown corner and place the emphasis on a good pass rush.. Sucks too because the thought of Claiborne and Haden in the secondary gives me mahogany.. Just think taking Coples over Claiborne would have a greater impact and yes I think that we will soon see Coples be projected within the top 6 by the time April comes around
Rambling but all boils down to play makers and our cupboard is bare.. we need to stop going for the high risk project picks like drafts past and get us bonified play makers or we will continue to be drafting in the top ten each year
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Quote:
we need to stop going for the high risk project picks like drafts past
Can you get much more high risk than RG3 or Coples?
~Lyuokdea
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You talk about not taking high risk project picks. Who is more of a risk than Coples? The dude has the talent to be a top five pick but it didn't come out when he played. He scares me more than anyone in the draft.
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I'd love to draft a DE too, but there really isn't one worth our #4 pick. I'd love to trade down to 12-15 and get Ingram or Mercellius. But at #4, you want to make sure you get an elite pick, and I'd have to go Claiborne over Coples every day of the week
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Just a general reply...
I really haven't seen anything on Blackmon other than the bowl game this year. The guy has been getting a pretty fair amount of love in the media and on this board dating back to before last year's draft. But now I'm reading folks on here saying that he's not worth a top-5 pick. That sounds like a big change to me.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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It's a strange change as well to me.
He is what I would consider an elite prospect at the WR position.
He's physical.
He has good hands
He has good speed
He is very good going across the middle.
He has very good jumping ability.
He has very good ball skills and is a true outside deep threat.
I think he favorably compares to Hakeem Nicks.
He's the type of guy that can grab a pass, break a tackle and run away from all but the most elite DBs in the league.
A guy that can get 150 yards and a couple TDs and it not be an anomaly.
I think a freak like Calvin Johnson has warped what people are looking for with a top of the draft WR.
Most of the guys who are poo-pooing Blackmon at 4 wouldn't pick Jerry Rice in the 4th round let alone the first.
If you like Andre Johnson then you will like Justin Blackmon. If there was a scale out of 100 for WR prospects entering the NFL then I'd grade AJ at 95 and Blackmon at 93. Calvin Johnson would be around 98.
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the only disagreement with your post is that I would rate Calvin a 101 on that 100pt scale.
#gmstrong
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Quote:
It's a strange change as well to me.
He is what I would consider an elite prospect at the WR position.
He's physical.
He has good hands
He has good speed
He is very good going across the middle.
He has very good jumping ability.
He has very good ball skills and is a true outside deep threat.
I think he favorably compares to Hakeem Nicks.
He's the type of guy that can grab a pass, break a tackle and run away from all but the most elite DBs in the league.
A guy that can get 150 yards and a couple TDs and it not be an anomaly.
I think a freak like Calvin Johnson has warped what people are looking for with a top of the draft WR.
Most of the guys who are poo-pooing Blackmon at 4 wouldn't pick Jerry Rice in the 4th round let alone the first.
I agree with all of this up to here. 
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My only minor detractions would be that he doesn't get ideal sink in the hips coming out of breaks and he doesn't beat press coverage as well as a guy with his prodigious physical gifts should.
Otherwise he's as good a prospect as there's been at the position.
As athletes continue to get bigger, stronger, faster we'll see more of his ilk in the coming years.
He's basically reset the bar for prospects at his position.
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He's physical.
He has good hands
These are the two I'd disagree with. I rate his hands at below average - he has a ton of drops, though he can make the spectacular catch (not as extreme as Braylon, but it can get pretty bad).
Also, I've never seen anybody give less effort in the run blocking game than Blackmon. He's a physical receiver, certainly - but run blocking is something he's not willing to do.
~Lyuokdea
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My mancrush on Blackmon is well documented, so take my opinion FWIW.
But, I don't see how comparing him to people in last year's draft really works.
I mean, Calvin Johnson is a stud, plain and simple. But, I don't think AJ Green is as good as he is. Therefore, I wouldn't pick AJ Green high because he isn't as good as Calvin Johnson.
Drew Brees is an amazing QB. But, he's not as good as Peyton Manning (maybe), so I wouldn't pick a guy like Drew Brees high because you can only pick a guy like Peyton Manning high.
I understand that you want to use your high picks on playmakers. I think that Blackmon is worth it, but my opinion is totally uneducated. I watched him play a few times and was impressed. But I don't know enough to really evaluate everything that goes into being a WR. Some of you on here may know enough.
I guess I'm just saying that comparing him to previous years' draft picks just doesn't work for me in the logic department. Say what you want about his skill set and whether he's worth our first pick. I get that. But to say that we shouldn't pick him because he's not as good as a guy drafted last year just doesn't make sense to me.
JMHO
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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Quote:
I guess I'm just saying that comparing him to previous years' draft picks just doesn't work for me in the logic department. Say what you want about his skill set and whether he's worth our first pick. I get that. But to say that we shouldn't pick him because he's not as good as a guy drafted last year just doesn't make sense to me.
The reason why is because AJ Green was s viewed as elite (at least by me). I don't think Blackmon is at that level. Now if he's the 4th best player in the draft, then it makes sense to pick him. But if he's something like the 10th best player in the draft, it doesn't make so much sense to draft him at 4
Different draft classes are at different levels, and this year might be a down year to previous years.
But if Blackmon is rated something like the 12th best player in the draft on an overall board and Richardson or Claiborne is rated 3 or 4th best. It makes more sense to draft one of them
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I can agree with that. If he's not your BPA at 4, then you don't pick him.
But, that's different than saying that just because he's not as good as Green, you don't draft him high.
What if the draft class is weak, and he's the 4th best player on the board, but in a different draft, he'd be 10 or 12? Do you skip him then just because he's not as good as the 4th best guy last year? (And that's not to you, just a general question).
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I'd say that's a great time to trade down in that particular draft.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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I have to agree with you. Trading up to get RG3 would be terrible. Personally, I want to see the Browns load up with playmakers around McCoy and see how he does.
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Not sure if that was a response to me - but I didn't compare him to any other prospects (except his hands to Braylon's). I just said that he's not ranked that high for me because his hands are average and he doesn't run block.
~Lyuokdea
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He has good speed
He has very good ball skills and is a true outside deep threat.
His speed is decent, I just don't see him having much of a second gear. That's concerning to me because he's going to be transitioning to a level that is much faster than college. It's the same thing that's scaring people away from Alshon Jeffery and why I went from loving Jeffery as a junior to not really wanting him after watching him more. Blackmon definitely has ball skills but he's not going to be a consistent deep threat in the NFL if he can't break away from NFL corners regularly. Not saying that he won't, but his speed absolutely gives me pause.
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He has good hands.
No one is arguing he has at least decent hands but it's the focus/concentration issues that get him into trouble. When I've seen Blackmon play, he's had some problems there. Here's some excerpts from 2 scouting reports. Figure out which one is Blackmon.
A) His hands are big and he does an excellent job of snatching the ball away from his frame. His focus was inconsistent early in collegiate career but really improved. He must maintain that focus at the next level in order to reach his full potential.
B) Uses his length well to pluck the football off his frame and secure the catch. Is a natural plucker who does a very good job of snatching the football. Concentration issues tend to pop up from time to time and he will put the football on the ground when working in traffic.
Justin Blackmon is prospect B. Prospect A? Braylon Edwards.
I'm not saying he's doomed to follow in the footsteps of Braylon but again, great hands can mean little if there are concentration lapses. Another thing that gives me pause.
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I think he favorably compares to Hakeem Nicks.
Agree completely. Remind me where Nicks was drafted again. Just because Nicks became a stud doesn't mean that everyone with that skillset will. One of the worst things a team with few impact players can do is draft in the Top 5 and come out with a decent player... that's my fear with Blackmon.
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I think a freak like Calvin Johnson has warped what people are looking for with a top of the draft WR.
Most of the guys who are poo-pooing Blackmon at 4 wouldn't pick Jerry Rice in the 4th round let alone the first.
If you like Andre Johnson then you will like Justin Blackmon. If there was a scale out of 100 for WR prospects entering the NFL then I'd grade AJ at 95 and Blackmon at 93. Calvin Johnson would be around 98.
I'm not looking for a Calvin Johnson clone because he's so rare that I can't expect that. Jerry Rice played faster than he timed. Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 and plays very fast. Blackmon seems like a better version of Greg Little to me: no elite measureables but strong, makes nice catches and fights for extra yardage. If I'm Heckert looking to add speed to the offense, I just can't take a guy in the Top 5 without great speed or size. Again, if we trade down to the Top 10-15 sure but just not where we're picking.
We're... we're good?
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I do not think I have seen this posted in the forum...but figured this might be some of you guys' nightmares...
In 2010, we took 2 secondary people in Haden and Ward...
In 2011, we took 2 defensive lineman in Taylor and Sheard...
What do you think of spending our two first rounders, or 2 of our first 3 picks on WR??
Take Blackmon and Wright (if he falls)...
or doing something like...
1A - Blackmon
1B - Glenn (protect Colt)
2 - Jeffery (if he falls due to this past year, but dude is a tall WR who can stretch the field )
H&H seem to like double dipping...why not double dip with WR's this year??
Thoughts???
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I'd take Blackmon and Wright at 4 and 22 if they were each available there and griffin was gone before #4. Though I'm not convinced Blackmon will be there at 4 and I'd be surprised if wright lasted that long. There's no other wideout I'd pair with Blackmon with one of our top 3 though. We need to get two receivers and one of them has to be a speed guy IMO.
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I agree Steve.
Little fits the bill as the big physical type receiver, and I think he is well on his way to being a plus player in this league. We have to compliment him with a solid receiver who has wheels, so for that reason I actually like Wright more than I do Blackmon.
I wouldn't take Wright at #4 and agree it is probably wishful thinking to project him being there when we draft in the 22 slot. Something tells me he is a mid teens selection. We are going to have to trade down or trade up to get him.
I think as this plays out, we might be in a position to trade down. Either we won't have a shot at Griffin unless we trade up or we simply aren't interested. If that is the case one of Blackmon or the tackle is going to be on the board when we are on the clock, and both of them should draw some interest if we want to move out of the pick.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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All Pro
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My biggest fear... Trading up for RG3 and giving up #22 in the process
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I also fall strongly into the Blackmon camp and even stronger into the trade down and get a first next year camp. If the Browns are not interested in RGIII (just speculation on my part) I would think that we would be the team that other teams would want to trade with.
At the 22 spot I would like any of Wright Floyd Minnfield or even Tann (the QB) I guess though in the end I want to keep our picks or trade down for more picks next year so we can continue to build this team.
I know no one talks about it but maybe we use our pick at #4 on whomever and trade the #22 pick for a 2nd this year and a 1st next year. I wouldnt be against that either. Its not beyond the realm of possibility.
Heck we could even move down from the 4 pick grab a 1st next year and do the above and end up with 3 1st round picks next year. That would probably be my draft dream. lol
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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Quote:
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I guess I'm just saying that comparing him to previous years' draft picks just doesn't work for me in the logic department. Say what you want about his skill set and whether he's worth our first pick. I get that. But to say that we shouldn't pick him because he's not as good as a guy drafted last year just doesn't make sense to me.
The reason why is because AJ Green was s viewed as elite (at least by me). I don't think Blackmon is at that level. Now if he's the 4th best player in the draft, then it makes sense to pick him. But if he's something like the 10th best player in the draft, it doesn't make so much sense to draft him at 4
Different draft classes are at different levels, and this year might be a down year to previous years.
But if Blackmon is rated something like the 12th best player in the draft on an overall board and Richardson or Claiborne is rated 3 or 4th best. It makes more sense to draft one of them
Teams don't always draft BPA, they pick on team need regardless of where they are picking. I wonder how many teams have traded down in the draft thinking that their guy will still be there and was gone before they had the chance to grab them.
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I think that happens some, but not all that often. Most of these draft teams know what they are doing and I'd guess if you could actually look at each teams player rankings, I'd bet they would be very similar, so these guys have a pretty good idea what round, and what stage of the round most of these guys are going to be selected.
I suppose you could just reach and select your guy 15-20 slots early, but if you want to trade down, you can always make it cheap enough someone will help you out, but as the GM you better not go too far down, or sure, "your" guy is gone. He has to know how far down he can go and still be safe.
Reaching isn't a reach if a player is ranked say within ten slots of your pick. That to me falls in one of the zones of a round, so picking at 4, IMO we could reach for a guy down to 14 on the board. Any lower we are reaching and need to work a trade down. Like I said, you can always make the move cheap enough someone will jump.
To me you have to get some value if you are going to pass on talent.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Reaching isn't a reach if a player is ranked say within ten slots of your pick.
And, ultimately, it only matters where YOU (the team) had them ranked.
Where Kiper, Mayock, GBN or some other "guru" had them ranked is COMPLETELY meaningless.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
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Quote:
Quote:
Reaching isn't a reach if a player is ranked say within ten slots of your pick.
And, ultimately, it only matters where YOU (the team) had them ranked.
Where Kiper, Mayock, GBN or some other "guru" had them ranked is COMPLETELY meaningless.
I agree, unless of course we have them ranked too high.
Even with Keiper and those guys, everybody is working from similar reports.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Legend
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Legend
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Posts: 13,358 |
David Veikune?
Chaun Thompson?
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Legend
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Legend
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And? Everyone misses, everyone takes chances they shouldn't. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
It only matters how the Team has the player ranked. What Kiper and the rest think means nothing... they are entertainers on the periphery of the business, they are not in the business of improving a team.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 13,358 |
Quote:
It only matters how the Team has the player ranked. What Kiper and the rest think means nothing... they are entertainers on the periphery of the business, they are not in the business of improving a team.
I agree with this, but sometimes if you're way off base with everyone else you need to step back, put the arrogance away for a bit, and give yourself a sanity check.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 38,626 Likes: 823 |
Quote:
Quote:
It only matters how the Team has the player ranked. What Kiper and the rest think means nothing... they are entertainers on the periphery of the business, they are not in the business of improving a team.
I agree with this, but sometimes if you're way off base with everyone else you need to step back, put the arrogance away for a bit, and give yourself a sanity check.
Looks like you and I agree since i said as long as we don't have people rated to high....good example with Chump Thompson.
Beau Bell would be another.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong
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Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: May 2008
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Quote:
And? Everyone misses, everyone takes chances they shouldn't. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't.
It only matters how the Team has the player ranked. What Kiper and the rest think means nothing... they are entertainers on the periphery of the business, they are not in the business of improving a team.
And so often times the talking heads opinion of a given teams perceived needs are different then the teams evaluation of itself and their needs as far as what they would like to add to the team in a given draft.
Teams also think in terms of combinations of selections in their Draft strategy and it's only apparent to what they where after the fact.
So I think that there can be some knee jerk reactions at the time of the selection without the benefit of the bigger picture.
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Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
Teams also think in terms of combinations of selections in their Draft strategy and it's only apparent to what they where after the fact.
Prime example: Houston this past year. What a terrific draft from top to bottom IMO.
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