DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns QB review

This year's NFC championship game was hosted in SF. QB'd by the illustrious Alex Smith.

It's not out of the realm of possibility.

You look at QBs and its strange.

As a team we want to build up the parts and take our team from a team that wins 4-6 games to a team that'll win 8-10 games before we get to be a team that wins 12-14 games consistently. So...why do we immediately feel like we have to add a quarterback that will immediately be Super Bowl ready...

If Alex Smith can get almost there and Rex Grossman can get there and so on and so forth....

Great TEAMS get into the playoffs and to Super Bowls. It is well beyond the QB to be a playoff team and a playoff winning team. If it wasnt, then Cam Newton would be there, the Broncos wouldnt have been, the Ravens debatably wouldnt be...it goes on.

Yes there are QBs that "get their teams to the playoffs" but they are guys that do one of several things...

Be in a system for several years.
Have been on a team in the past that supported them with talent
Have a supportive coaching staff
Have a supporting cast, especially on defense.

Guys that make their players better...are returning the favor.

Is Matthew Stafford really making Calvin Johnson, Brandon Pettigrew, and Titus Young/Nate Burleson better? Or...is his offense talented and he helps put guys in the right place?
Did Big Ben make Jerome Bettis, Hines Ward, Antwaan Randle El and co better as a rookie? or did they make him better?

Being good and winning takes so much more than QB play.



Therefore. Looking at Colt's season. Young QBs rarely come in and make his players better to the point where his team wins games. Cam Newton came very very close...but he still didnt win games.


Build the roster...then get the young guy that the team can support...however, we already have the young guy. Who is likeable, INCREDIBLY HARD WORKING (the hardest working QB weve had since the return), confident, caring, and unwilling to give up. He possesses EVERYTHING you want in a QB except a cannon arm.

Build the roster. Spend picks getting talent around the man, then you can get a guy and he could be a guy like Andy Dalton or TJ Yates or someone that isnt a top pick and so on and he can sit for a few years and then when he steps in he can get it done...

Look at guys like Romo, Cassell, Dalton, Yates, and co.

Guys that have won because of whats around them.

You really think that Brady can win that many games without Gronkowski, Welker, Hernandez and an underrated BJGE? No...yes theres holes in that team but the OL keeps his jersey clean and his guys are uncoverable. Look at how often Gronk runs clean...

Fill the roster...then we can tell. Cam Newton is a rarity...and beyond that, His running game in williams and stewart, and Steve Smith and the combo of Olsen and Shockey gives him plenty of weapons.

No one succeeds without talent around him...Ask Sam Bradford and every Browns QB weve had not named DA

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why do we immediately feel like we have to add a quarterback that will immediately be Super Bowl ready...

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Because society (the younger generation) thinks that way about most everything today ... That still does not make it fair or does it mean that it's the correct way to take an approach on that or any other issue.

Unless we bring in a veteran QB, then I think that Colt will remain the starter at least for the near future, of coarse that will go hand in hand with his improvements in his game.

Luck played in a similar offense and if (a big if at that) we where to somehow come out of this draft with his rights , then he might be ready to take the rains and lead this team next season, but some QB with less experience in a pro set offense is not likely to do so and we might be no closer to knowing who our guy is this time next year.

This management and Coaching philosophy is not one (imo) that is going to change the way they do their business to suit a QB to suit his talents ... Otherwise we might have seen a different game plan this past season with Colt at QB. I think that this is the correct way to teach a QB to play in this League for the long term.

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Be in a system for several years.
Have been on a team in the past that supported them with talent
Have a supportive coaching staff
Have a supporting cast, especially on defense.

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I love your post, but let me add one more thing..

Have an offensive system that uses the skills he's best at.

King,, you make all the sense in the world.. But my friend, you are about to get beat on by people who think (mistakenly) that a different QB is going to make guys Catch balls that they dropped last year and running backs stay healthy and produce.

Thanks for your post.. it made sense...

I think a different QB will change things most assuredly. Just not as positively as we'd all expect.

I know that QB changes in the past have really done things for teams (DA in for Frye, Peyton to Painter) but this just doesnt have the makings of a team that will really be leaps and bounds better with a different QB (thats a rookie...if we added Matt Flynn or someone who has been in the league for a while and has been ready to go, it may look better...but chances are it would look like Schaub did in Houston for the first couple years, Cassell has in KC, Orton in Denver, etc..) If we add a rookie...what are the chances that RG3 makes us look thaaaat much better.

Cam Newton has a lot of talent around him that stayed healthy this year


Luck would turn into captain checkdown here. Our guys wouldnt get open and he would throw to our RBs that with our play sheet would net us 3-4 yards. Hes Colt with increased accuracy when it comes to how he would manage our offense.
RG3 would be athletic, but he would hold the ball too long because our guys wont be getting open and he would take off...

Both of those things were common complaints all year for us. Holding the ball too long, running too soon, checking down, not throwing guys open.

We'll have those same complaints...why does a new name with a bigger arm change that? We had a huge arm in Anderson but he wasnt smart enough, we had a bad arm in Frye but he didnt throw hard enough and held the ball too long, weve had guys that make huge mistakes...

Garcia couldnt get it done
Dilfer couldnt either
so many guys we have here couldnt get it done...but...how many of them had longer than a year? Anderson had just over, Frye had just over, Couch is our winningest QB in terms of percentage since the return, and interestingly enough he also played the longest...and we cheered his injury for Kelly Holcomb who really turned out a top notch guy for us.

I called for Kelly in retrospect it was a huge mistake, and it has set off a chain reaction of awful qbs that get no time to mature or grow or improve...and here we are again...throwing one out the door to find a new one. Is RG3 the one? or the next one? No one talked about wanting him or thinking he was a franchise QB until Colt started playing mediocre. Now suddenly he's the next Randall Cunningham, Warren Moon, Steve Young, or Cam Newton?

Theres that heavy talk about Andrew Luck being the guy, and thats all well and good and maybe he would be a guy to turn around our franchise...but not this year. We wouldnt magically turn into a 10 win team by adding Andrew Luck. We'd win maybe 6-7 this year, and then maybe 8-9 the following year AS HE PROGRESSES, and then we could be there. You get a rookie QB in here this year, and then it becomes a couple years before we're seriously contenders.

Build the roster.
Get playmakers. Get our QB guys that we can trust to get open and make plays. Get a guy like Braylon was early in his career, get a KW2, get a guy like Antonio Bryant. Get a Jamal Lewis on the roster...but at the beginning of their careers. Support the QB. Until the QB has established himself, then you can let him develop guys.

Look around the league. Every good QB had a great support system around him...then, after he had developed (and was developed by his staff, and system, and playmakers) and become what we know him to be now, did they focus elsewhere and let him develop guys that come in.

Name ANY great QB that has had success and look at what he had when he entered the league (as a starter)...

Greg Jennings and Donald Driver in their primes made Aaron Rodgers look good, now he's made Jordy Nelson look good (thats the shortest term answer we've ever seen)
Toomer, Hilliard, and Shockey made Manning...now Manning has made Manningham and Cruz (Nicks is just very good), and Ballard and Bear Pascoe
Ward, Bettis, Randle El, and Burress made Roethlisberger and hes since made Wallace, Brown, and Sanders (Holmes helped)
Harrison, Faulk, and Pollard made Manning, then he made Wayne, Garcon, and Tamme and such.
Brady didnt make himself...he had guys, since then Welker, Edelman and others have been made by Brady


There are countless examples...Only Donovan McNabb have I looked up and found he didnt have a great support system in terms of players around him...but he did have Duce Staley, and Pat Shurmur.


Good QBs dont MAKE a team entering the league, or even first year starting...good teams make them, and then they can start making guys.



So...we have a QB who is in his 2nd year, and first year as a starter and had no offseason to acclimate himself with his 3rd system in as many years (Texas, Mangini, Shurmur)...and he'll have a new OC this year, although still in the same system. This will be the first time he has had a stable system around him.

He has an offseason to examine film.
He has an offseason to build chemistry with his guys.
He has an offseason to be around the facilities.
He has an offseason to go to OTAs and Mini Camps
He has an offseason to gain the knowledge of his coach and OC
He has an offseason to work on his weaknesses, that he can see on film.


Kicking him to the curb is premature.

Yup, you and I are on the same page here..

But you are going to get a ton of Push back from those that want "mr. perfect". As if he actually exists.. well, I guess he does, his name is Tom Brady.. and even he isn't perfect. Just maybe the best playing today..

Note: he was a 6th round pick proving once again, talent is where you find it and what you do with it.

Totally agree with this and your previous post.

Despite being in the UK I have managed to see most Browns' games ths year.

I am no authority on QB play at all.

I would like to see Colt given a chance to compete for the starting gig next year.

I know some on here say Colt hasn't shown enough and feel he is too limited.

I have seen instances of all of that - holding the ball too long, throws behind the receiver and the odd very bad decision.

I have however also seen him make some good throws. Throws that only the supposedly top tier QBs make and Colt cannot.

I've also seen the top QBs throw balls behind their receievers and make poor decisions.

He has shown me flashes; enough to justify giving him a shot at the starting gig next year. Colt needs consistency and improvement. He's the kind of kid that will work at it and for all those thyat label him Charlie Frye Mark 2 - Colt has already shown more with less than Frye ever did. That comparison, to me, is as assinine as comparing McCoy to Brees at this point.

I do not know enough about Luck to comment. He is apparently the second coming of Elway. Until he has 5 seasons in the pros, we won't know.

I also do not know enough about Griffin III.

What I do know is that we lack talent across the board.

I am all for building the team, like we have started on the defense. I disagree with those who say it's a franchise QB or nothing. Look at Sam Bradford. I believe he's a very good QB. He has had no supporting cast bar Jackson in all truth.

The only way I would like a QB in the draft is if:

Somehow we managed to get Luck without selling the farm or we grab someone like Tannehill or someone else that the FO, who know Football and QB play in more detail that I could ever hope to know think is someone who has a chance to be out guy.


I would then SIT Luck or the other draftee for 1 year and let Colt or a FA (I'll discuss that below) start. We have had a terrible habit of ruining QBs. I hope Holmgren, if we draft one, decides to do it the right way.

That brings me on to Flynn and Campbell. Colt has upside and for all those clamouring for an elite, franchise kind of guy, I don't believe Campbell is that. He may well be better than McCoy but I would rather find out for sure if he is or not. Regardles of what I think thought we will find out over the coming months if the FO think that of McCoy.

Flynn intrigues me and if it doesn't cost any draft picks, I would be all for bringing him in to compete with McCoy. I understand that if you pay a QB say $50m then he should be the unquestionable starter, and perhaps that is how it pans out, but if McCoy shows improvement in camp and looks like the light is starting to stay on rather than flicker, then you have to let the best man win. If the naysayers are correct, Flynn has nothing to worry about

I am still optimistic about the Browns under Holmgren and Heckert and am willing to give Shurmur at least another year or two, provided we get an OC in to make our playbook a bit more unpredictable.

Apologies for the long post. I read this board all the time and it's interesting reading the sometimes polar opposite opinions. However, that is all they are - none of us can really gauge what will happen, how the FO view any player.

I keep hearing about all of the talent that Newton has around him, and I have to wonder ...... where?

Shockey is a 400 yard guy who has had his 2nd worst year of his career, and is on the downward slide to the end. Greg Olson isn't some special talent at the position either. I certainly don't see a Newsome or Winslow there ... especially at their respective ages.

His main WR is a guy who put up almost 1400 yards this year ..... and that's about 150 yards less than he put up in the past 2 years combined. He was once a force, but definitely appeared to be on the downside. After all .... people tell me that great receivers get theirs no matter what ...... so I have to wonder which way it is. He didn't get his the past 2 years, but did this year.

He had LaFell, who had 468 yards last year, and 613 this year. His big improvement was in yards/catch. Is that receiver, or QB? They brought in Naanee, and he's a very average type WR.

His RBs are both good receivers, but they have been there as well.

They really added a pair of aging, but decent TE, and a so-so WR to their mix.

They have the running game, but they've had that for years, and it hasn't resulted in wins.

What do you consider to be superior talent that Newton had? I see a lot of very average players around him, with one above average WR, and a pair of good RBs.

For comparison's sake ......

This year Carolina was:

#7 in total offensive yards (390 yards/game)
#13 in passing yards (239 yards/game)
#3 in rushing yards (150 yards/game)
#5 in scoring (25.4 PPG)
#5 in Touchdowns scored (48)

Last year Carolina was:

#32 in total offensive yards (258 yards/game)
#32 in passing yards (143 yards/game)
#13 in rushing yards (115 yards/game)
#32 in scoring (12.2 PPG)
#32 in Touchdowns scored. (17 TD scored)

Those are incredible jumps forward for the offense. I honestly cannot remember an offense going from dead last to top 10 in so many categories in one year's time. If anyone can, please let me know, because I am really curious to see it.

How anyone can look at that and say that adding a couple of old TEs and bringing back the guys they had somehow was the cause of them suddenly doubling their scoring output ...... almost tripling their TDs scored, and increasing their passing and rushing totals significantly is beyond me.

They got their QB. They got that position right. Everything else followed. If they get their defense out of the bottom 20s in total defense and scoring defense, they will be a very scary team. However, since we made a huge jump defensively this year, I think that side can be done.

I'll give you this Ytown, you are consistent...LOL

They also had a Coaching change...Fox was out and Rivera came in...bringing a new OC...by the name of Chud....That followed him from SanDiego.

Chudzinski helped San Diego rank first in the NFL in total offense with an average of 395.6 yards per game and second in scoring with an average of 27.6 points per game.

You can't just put the success of this seasons offense solely on Cam...I like Cam... But things fell into place for him and the new coaching staff..

I asked a question that you are free to answer as well.

I don't see the Panthers as some supremely talented team.

Which players on their offense do you see as superior type players?

Let's see .......

Last year the Panthers ran for 1846 yards.

Last year the Browns rushed for 1646 yards.

This year the Browns rushed for 1531 yards.

The Panthers rushed for 2408 yards this year. 700 or so of that was Newton ... along with 21 rushing TD IIRC.

So we dropped by 115 yards from last year to this year ..... and the panther increased by 562.

The Browns have Watson, who is far superior to anyone the Panthers put out there, along with Moore, and Smith who each have strengths. They also have the rookie.

The Browns have Peyton Hillis at RB. He got hurt, They added a couple of other guys who also got hurt, The bottom line is, though, that the rushing game was close to last year's rushing game. The biggest difference was in TDs scored.

The Panthers' "above average" WR had 500 or so yards last year. He was said to be washed up.

The Panthers scored over 25 PPG this year. We scored ...... what ... 13? Huge difference there. I'm sorry if you can't, or won't see (or admit) that.

The Panthers went from scoring 12 PPG in 2010 to scoring over 25 last year. there's a reason for that .....and it's not because they added a TE.

As far ss wins go ..... we had the 10th ranked defense in the league. We allowed only 19.2 PPG. (Carolina's offense allowed 26.8 PPG) We should have been a lot better than a 4 win team with the defense performing like that. We lost because we couldn't score even 2 TDs on offense. Carolina lost because 3+ TDs scored on offense wasn't enough. Big difference ..... but again ,..... I know that you'll never admit that.

So some of you are bascially saying if Colt played on the Giants or the Patriots for the same amount of time the current QB's have, then he would do just as good as job do to the players on those teams. Would he look better ? probably... but would he really make all those throws those guys do ?

Those teams have had players come and go every year and yet the QB's STILL looked good. Brady doesn't even have a No 1 wide receiver or a number two for that matter. The Pats defense sucks most of the time but they still win because of Tom. He's killing people with TE's no one heard of a couple years ago.

I more than happy to have Colt here next year but he better have to BEAT someone decent before he gets anoited the starter. And if we do pick a QB at 4.. how long do you really think he will sit on the sidelines ?

Does anyone think Colt could beat out RG3, Flynn, Tannehill or even Weeden or Foles?

RG3, Flynn, or Weeden ...... No.

I'm not as sold on Tannehill as others are. He might be OK down the road, but I think that he's going to need a lot of time and work. I think that McCoy might beat out Foles too.

No because right now Those Quarterbacks are making their teams better, and they are making their players better...

You look at a team like Detroit, or Houston...I think that Colt could have thrown for close to 4000 with Detroit, and couldve done much better than Leinart/Yates. I think he couldve done better than Kolb and Skelton in Arizona. I think he could be doing a terrific job with the cast in Baltimore. As well as better than Sanchez in NY

Take a place with a young QB that is emerging (GB and Carolina as exceptions) and I think that Colt McCoy (with the same amount of exposure in the system) would be performing very similarly.

You look at places like SD, Pit, NE, GB, NYG, and places like that...Not even close, because Manning and Brady have been in the system for years with the same coach and the same core for years...

It comes with time. You get a young guy talent so he can succeed, he then returns the favor by helping youth succeed when he is no longer youth. Period.


Just like how Rhodes, Jauron, and Holmgren have helped Shurmur (while his play calling was suspect he had great game plans all year) do a good job with his coaching. After 5-10 years, if Jauron moves on...Shurmur can help a guy like _________ who replaces him because he's been there and has grown into the role and progressed.

Its how it works. Give youth talent, then give talent youth.

Dont replace youth with more youth, or whatever.


As for the one post...i think it would be superb if our QBs look like this

Starter: Colt McCoy
Backup: Thaddeus Lewis
3rd: Case Keenum

Yea its youth and untested, but if it is...that means we spent our early picks on talent around them...be it making the defense even better, or getting WRs and RBs to give him weapons.

Tell Colt that we understand that he didnt do well, but we'll give him a pass because of the circumstances surrounding the season were subpar and he needs to improve this offseason.

If he doesnt...we have youth that costs very little that we can easily replace you with.

Then if it all crashes and burns...Okay, it crashes and burns. Then were near or at the top, and we get our guy. But our guy will have talent around him like Trent Richardson, Alshon Jeffrey, and Greg Little and Jordan Norwood and Cribbs and so on and so forth.

I don't see that being to far out of reach....He did throw for 2,733 this season...adding in that he missed 3 games and the receivers left how many yards on the field from dropped passes....

their leading receiver and best tight end are good for more yards than any of our guys...Megatron is good for 1000 no matter who throws him the ball...Ask Shaun Hill.

Pettigrew is better than anyone we have here...

and Jahvid Best and Morris are better receiving RBs than we have...yes 4000

Wasn't accuracy suppose to be one of his strengths...But was that at shorter yard passes ?..

His arm strength was a weakness...

Point being...if he was accurate at the shorter pass..and if his receivers caught the ball..then ran for some decent gain after the catch...Colt very well would be in that 3500 to 4000 yd range...

As if we are gonna get any of those guys.....

Timing and ball placement are dependent on each other...maybe he was placing the ball where it needed to be...just late, or the WR wasnt where he was supposed to be.


Ball placement and timing are just not things we can make a determination on. Theres too many variables. Are the WRs on point? Did they take too long shaking off the jam and arent where they need to be? Did Colt just hold the ball too long and put it where it shouldve been? Did he wait and then have to adjust?


We dont know unless were running the offense...

Timing and placement are two things that we just dont know. And maybe he placed them well but the WRs werent where they needed to be. Id imagine if he threw the ball on time, but the WR rounded off his route (which we did constantly) getting him to a spot quicker, maybe it does look behind him.


Devils Advocate...maybe Colt did just place it poorly and not on time.

But those are 2 things that can improve with time. It wasnt like DA where he was just tossing them into the dirt or airmailing them constantly. He overshot a few balls, but all QBs do.

I think Colt kept balls catchable better than Wallace for improvised throws...he does that damn well in comparison to many QBs. I cant remember a time Ive seen him throw one that lands 6 yards in front of the WR and skips to him like i see a lot of QBs do...ive seen guys have to get down to make the catch, but thats by design, prevent the INT



Were underselling a guy who played mediocre football in mitigating circumstances. Most QBs woulda crumbled long sooner than did McCoy, and he only crumbled at the crown of 92s helmet

I'm going to disagree. (Surprise. LOL)

When the QB holds .... holds .... pats the ball ..... looks .... and then "fires" a pass 3 yards down the field to his covered receiver, then it's not a timing issue on the part of anyone but the QB. The whole idea of the WCO is to get the ball out immediately. I have almost never seen this happen with McCoy. He cannot and does not throw a receiver open, especially against underneath single coverage. He cannot get the ball to the outside on digs and such, where the ball must be there at the break, with any crispness. His slants are a thing of horror. I can remember exactly one slant where he actually threw to the receiver before he looked back rather than waiting ... and waiting ..... and that was a slant to Little that hit him coming out of his break, and allowed him to actually run with the ball. That's the only one of those I can remember though.

McCoy's deep ball might as well quack and flap its way down the field. I'm not even talking 50 yard passes ..... but the 30-35 yard variety. His deep passes force the receiver to stop and wait. The pass that Wallace made to Little, in stride while he was under pressure, would have almost certainly been a sack or incompletion with McCoy taking the snap ..... and people would have said that he can't be expected to make plays under that kind of pressure ... and no one was open .... and so on. People can deny that this is what they would have said ...... but I've seen it happen too many times under less imposing and threatening circumstances.

People talk about McCoy's stats ..... and many of his stats were "freebies", given by the defense at the end of games we had no chance of winning in exchange for time off the clock. It's been well documented how many times McCoy "drove us down the field" so that we lost by 2 scores instead of 3 .... or 1 score instead of 2 with no time left.

In Oakland, for example, we scored to get within 7 with roughly a minute left. Then we recovered an onside kick and the Raider defense started playing again.McCoy went something like 9-12 on the TD drive. The Raiders kept it all in front of them. They allowed the underneath stuff.

Once the game was put back in jeopardy ....... after we recovered the kick ..... McCoy went 1-4 for 7 yards. There was no more trading of yards for time.

Without those 2 drives, McCoy was something like 11-30 for 115 yards ..... or close to that.

In San Francisco we scored in the 4th quarter again .... down by 17 .... with something like 6 minutes left. He had 112 yards out of his for the day only after we were down 21-3, with 8 minutes left.

At some point, the QB has to start delivering while the game is still on the line. I just never saw that out of McCoy. He didn't have a tremendous amount of help, but he also didn't help his teammates.

As far as McCoy throwing at NFL average anywhere ..... I look at how other QBs complete passes at all levels of the field, and the yardage they get from those throws, and McCoy is like a high school player by comparison. That's not a slam, it's just the closest comparison I can think of that fits. His "strength", which are the passes to or behind the LOS, and within 0-10 yards of the LOS, are overwhelmed by almost every other starting QB in the league as far as completion percentage and yardage per pass. He's better than Gabbert ... but that's really about it.

I look at him vs guys like Matt Moore, who is about to be replaced in Miami, and when I compare them there is no comparison ... even in the areas where McCoy is strongest.

In passes at or behind the LOS, McCoy completes 74 % for 4.2 yards per throw. Moore completes 78%, but for only 3.6 yards per throw. That's a win for McCoy. He has better "short" weapons. Then we move to 0-10 yard passes. McCoy completes 59%. Keep in mind that this is his strength. He averages 4.82 yards per throw. Matt Moore completes 67.5% of his throws for 5.37 yards per pass. He completes these short passes which are McCoy's strength at a rate of 8% better as far as completion percentage, and for an extra half a yard per throw. 3 throws is an extra yard and a half. How many times were we stopped ..... just ..... short ...........?

The one area that McCoy did pretty well in, and which surprised me, is the 20 yard or so pass. He completed 10-18 for 5 TDs. Of course, this is the pass that we used to routinely make to the TEs ..... and which he stopped throwing almost completely.

This comparison is just Matt Moore .... the Dolphins backup QB ...... playing for the guy no one liked as OC here last year ...... and I have to say that Moore outplayed McCoy overall.

That's just one backup QB by comparison. It gets far worse when you look at starters across the league. There is just no area where McCoy comes off as even competent, let alone better.


I understand that you would prefer for McCoy to be the guy .... and with just a few more pieces around him we would see him blossom ...... but I just simply see no reason for that type of optimism. I don't see any building block strengths when I watch McCoy play. I wish I did.

Thanks for the debate. I appreciate it. If you feel like it, feel free to counter some of my points.

Unless we trade up for Luck or sign Flynn, I'm going to assume Colt will be the starter next year, and I am ok with that..

Luck - I think had Luck come out last year and been a rookie on our team this year starting, we would of had a better offense than we had, that's just my opinion on his skills vs. Colts.

Flynn - I am VERY skeptical of bringing him in, if we do it, I won't freak out or anything, and we'll get to read alot of fluff about the GB ties to Holmgren, his game against Detroit etc... I'm just..eh... Is it weird that I was more interested in signing him BEFORE he threw for 400 yards and 6 TDs?

RG3 - NO. (I think he has talent, he's just WAY to big of a risk.)

Tannehill - Before the broken foot, I thought there was a chance we'd take him at 22 and he'd come in and win the job etc. Now I wouldn't take him before our 2nd round pick, and then I would sit him behind Colt.

All this talk of guys like Cambell coming in and drafting a QB to learn IMO is pointless to me, if you're bringing in a rookie (that isn't Luck) you might as well stick with Colt this year...

I know this is a 2011 REview and I kind of turned it into a 2012 PREview, but I can't really talk about McCoy with reffering to whats coming next...

Did he suck this year? Basically.Beyond the Miami Game Winning drive (which IMO involved some 2002 Wild Card Levels of Defense at the end by Miami)

What did he really do this year?

I was REALLY pumped during the Pitt Thursday nighter, he came out making throws I never thought he'd even try... But then he also threw it directly to the one guy you shouldn't throw it to (#43) Yeah he got his clocked cleaned, that sucks, but so does life...

I was really depressed when we were close to winning the last game against Pitt, because I hate Seneca Wallace, had that been Colt, I would of been all for it(not that I WANTED to lose) but all winning with Seneca does is inflate his already retarded ego of himself...

Step one of fixing the QB position IMO: Cutting Seneca Wallace.

I don't disagree with cutting Wallace ..... but only because I don't see him as a solution to our QB nightmare. We need to keep bringing guys in till we find one. This "trying to make do" crap gives us consistent 4th place finishes with the occasional 3rd when things go right for us.

We have had exactly 2 2nd place finished since 1999. We have never won the division since we returned. That's appalling. Every other team has won the division at least once. Every other team has found their QB at least once. (and it looks like the Bengals have again with Dalton)

It's a risk to take a QB high .... but this is a passing league, and we cannot pass. There is only one solution, and that is to take a risk and finally find a damn QB. It sounded like Lerner has come around to this line of thinking based on his last interview ..... so let's hope that his opinion is indicative of the feeling inside Berea.

I do agree with you on a lot of those things...I guess I just see room for improvement rather than ceiling hit.

The deep ball, well thats something that will improve with throwing it more often...and I only say that because I dont ever recall Brees being an elite deep ball thrower until he started playing with NO.

The patting the ball...I think more of it is trust than is ability. Throwing the ball to a WR that isnt looking doesnt take skill as much as it takes trust. And how many times did he actually get a quick slant to work for any kind of gain? The one ball to Little and the 51 yarder for Norwood. Maybe 5-10 times all year, which isnt enough.

But as a whole. I saw an offense that went 3 and out less than any time i can remember. It may have been just 1 first down and out...but we actually did a terrific job moving the ball in spurts...the problem was the spurts never lasted, leading to punts.

I think in the NFL...when there is a flickering light, with time, confidence, and hard work, the flickering grows stronger and stronger as time goes on.

We did move the ball into scoring range early in games, and despite what it has seemed while there were times we were multiple scores down, we werent out of games.

We have a QB that played decidedly mediocre (at best?) and we were within a score by the gun...with a lot around him going wrong.

My reason for backing Colt is that the circumstances surrounding him were so in flux and bad...that I dont place all the blame on him. We had bad RBs, bad WRs, bad OL play for a good chunk of the season (as evidenced by our lack of running production save for about 3 games), bad QB play, bad QB protection, and bad (read conservative) QB decision making, bad play calling, bad system installment, bad offseason planning.

When everyone says he played like garbage and made a ton of mistakes, i rarely disagree...but I'm willing to give him a chance because everything was bad. And Colt McCoy isnt a guy who wont get better. He made mistakes in Texas and improved upon em there. He adjusted his game from Mack Brown to fit Daboll's system, actually quite well. Then had a new system thrust upon him with a month and a half to prepare for. As opposed to 6-7 months, or a year or a season plus an offseason. I explicity think that we just cannot make a determination on the kid. And if we trusted him enough to be our starter, and to have Seneca Wallace back him up and Thaddeus Lewis be an emergency guy...Then we should trust him with an entire offseason to make it work.

Look around the league. The best QBs not named Cam Newton who is an abberation of the highest order have all been in their system for years. And almost all of them had a year to absorb the system before playing (and I'll count Matthew Stafford in there because of his injuries). Matt ryan and Mark Sanchez are the two who came in and won right away with their new system in place and so on and so forth...but both have underwhelmed in crunch time (or in Sanchez's case, in the regular season...weird) but have had GREAT support systems around them which aided their development.

We havent had that. So i think instead of casting him off...Give him the next years set of starts. Get that 32 start threshold that was so often bandied about in saying that Eli Manning would flick the switch to dominate...and it took about 40...and really didnt hit heavy until this year.

Time to prove himself is what we should give.

Chad Pennington didnt win right away with his soft arm, but he made the proper adjustments.
As has Alex Smith finally (just needed an offensive staff led by a QB)
As did Brees
As did many others.

I think there is more historical basis in letting a hard working, ever improving guy get better and work with a roster that supports him than the other way around. Once he gets it...and the light comes on. Then you ease off on the support. Then guys like Julian Edelman and Victor Cruz can be made. Make your guy...then let him make other guys.

I know you disagree fundamentally...but does this rationale make sense? Does history prove this theory right at all?

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Chad Pennington didnt win right away with his soft arm, but he made the proper adjustments.

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Pennington had a lot of time to learn from....... Vinny Testaverde I think. He sat the bench for awhile after getting drafted.

But he was good when he started to play. Chad's my fav QB ever. He was impressive when he started to start games, but that's because he sat and learned for awhile. I dunno what his win loss record was, but he was on the money right away. Man, I loved Chad Pennington. It's sad that Jets players are my favorite players ever, we gotta get going Cleveland Browns! Give me a QB who can take Pennington's spot! A RB who can take Curtis Martin's spot! A WR that can take the spots of Keyshawn and Cherbet!

Kellen Winslow Jr. took the spot of Kyle Brady as my favorite TE, great job Kellen!